[3.5] Sanctum Spell: Cleric domain slots go DING?

[Jack_Simth]

OK, so in The Cleric Class Description (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm), under domains, we have:

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells

A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected.

With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot. (emphasis added)

Now, with Sanctum spell, a Cleric-1 can cast a spell (inside the sanctum) that's effectively a 2nd level spell. And the Cleric gets a domain slot at each level the cleric can cast. So the cleric then gets a 2nd level domain slot. With sanctum spell, that 2nd level domain slot can be cast (inside the sanctum) as a 3rd level spell, so the Cleric can now cast 3rd level spells, which of course means a 3rd level domain slot. Repeat until you have a 10th level slot (after which, you need Epic Heighten to go further). And of course, outside the sanctum, possessing a domain slot itself constitutes the ability to cast a spell of that level, which means they don't decay.

Clearly, this isn't intended.

Also works with other sources of free heighten, of course (such as Earth Spell). I just find it really amusing that this is a 1st level 9th access trick that any cleric-1 can do with the investment of a single feat.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Each domain gives you a spell (domains contain 9 spells, one for each level, that you can access when you gain the ability to cast a spell), not a spell slot. For spell slots, you go back to the table, which says that you don't have a domain spell slot for a 3rd level spell at level 4. If you can somehow gain domain spell slots above your level, then you could prepare higher-level domain spells in them.

[Troacctid]

Normally I might go on a tirade about how Sanctum Spell is worded in a way that makes it just about the shakiest possible option for Heighten tricks out there, but this time I don't need to, because where are you getting the spell slots from exactly? You only have 1st-level slots. Even if we grant that Sanctum Spell works exactly the way you want, it ultimately accomplishes nothing at all, because you don't have any slots to prepare the higher-level spells in that you now "have access to."

It's like how a bloodline feat gives a sorcerer 9th-level spells known at ECL 1. Pretty cool, but you can't actually do much with it, because you don't have 9th-level spell slots.

[Gruftzwerg]

1. You can't stack the same metamagic multiple times on a single spell. Thus the trick only can be used once, if at all.. No 9th lvl spells from a 1st lvl slot, sorry..

2. You need Spontaneous Domain Casting (ACF) for this to work. Because that lets you do the exchange based on the spell's lvl and ain't relying on spellslots like regular domain spell preparation. Finally, due to the way Spontaneous Domain Casting works, you can use this much more often then the originally intended trick.

Not as broken as you intended it, but imho still nice to have.

[remetagross]

Yeah, I agree here, what's missing is the spell slot, which is different from the spell access.

Can you elaborate on your last point, Gruftzwerg?

[Gruftzwerg]

Yeah, I agree here, what's missing is the spell slot, which is different from the spell access.

Can you elaborate on your last point, Gruftzwerg?

Have a look at Spontaneous Domain Casting:

Benefit:
You can convert stored spell energy into the spells of one of your domains. Pick one of your two domains. You can "lose" any prepared spell (other than a domain spell) to cast any spell of the same level or lower on that domain list. Your choice is permanent unless an alignment change, deity change, or other dramatic event leaves you incapable of accessing the domain.

Now lets us have a look on Sanctum Spell:

Benefit:
A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.

Spontaneous Domain Casting is an ability and thus causes an "effect". All effects dependent on spell level are calculated to the adjusted level. Thus if you lose a prepared Sanctum spell, you get a Domain Spell of a higher lvl. But this can't be stacked (metamagic can't be stacked with itself) nor repeated (since you can't lose the spontaneous Domain Spell you get).

[Beni-Kujaku]

Spontaneous Domain Casting is an ability and thus causes an "effect". All effects dependent on spell level are calculated to the adjusted level. Thus if you lose a prepared Sanctum spell, you get a Domain Spell of a higher lvl. But this can't be stacked (metamagic can't be stacked with itself) nor repeated (since you can't lose the spontaneous Domain Spell you get).

"If cast in your Sanctum". The spell you're trading away is never cast in your scenario‚ so it is of its normal level.

[Crake]

"If cast in your Sanctum". The spell you're trading away is never cast in your scenario‚ so it is of its normal level.

The logic goes that "able to cast" and "currently available to cast" are not the same. If you have sanctum spell and 4th level spell slots, you are ABLE to cast 5th level spells, even if you do not necessarily have one in the chamber right now, just the same that you're ABLE to cast 4th level spells normally, even when you've expended all your 4th level spell slots. The whole "the spell is only considered the higher level at the time of casting" thing only matters when it comes to things that require in the chamber spells, like spontaneos conversions, or reserve feats.

[Darg]

The logic goes that "able to cast" and "currently available to cast" are not the same. If you have sanctum spell and 4th level spell slots, you are ABLE to cast 5th level spells, even if you do not necessarily have one in the chamber right now, just the same that you're ABLE to cast 4th level spells normally, even when you've expended all your 4th level spell slots. The whole "the spell is only considered the higher level at the time of casting" thing only matters when it comes to things that require in the chamber spells, like spontaneos conversions, or reserve feats.

Not to mention the fact that the rules specifically state that characters must be of the appropriate class level to even cast spells of a given level. Thus, if sanctum/earth spell truly increased the level of the spell to qualify for casting spells of a particular level, you wouldn't even have the ability to cast them anyways. People want to ignore this rule because it invalidates their early entry/9ths at 1st cheese.

[Gemini476]

Not to mention the fact that the rules specifically state that characters must be of the appropriate class level to even cast spells of a given level. Thus, if sanctum/earth spell truly increased the level of the spell to qualify for casting spells of a particular level, you wouldn't even have the ability to cast them anyways. People want to ignore this rule because it invalidates their early entry/9ths at 1st cheese.

Less appropriate class level and more of sufficient caster level, from what I recall - with the latter never really being defined anywhere since it's just assumed to be understood. It's... not a rule that comes up a lot since people generally don't try to lower their own caster level and usually don't get access to spells above the level they can cast.

[Darg]

Less appropriate class level and more of sufficient caster level, from what I recall - with the latter never really being defined anywhere since it's just assumed to be understood. It's... not a rule that comes up a lot since people generally don't try to lower their own caster level and usually don't get access to spells above the level they can cast.

In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters) It's class level. Wizards get access to spells above their level all the time. They just can't cast them. If all it took to actually cast spells of a higher level was to just get access to spontaneous casting (alacratous cogitation) and versatile spellcaster, you'd see wizards do it all the time. But you don't, and the examples you see are simply people just trying to cheese the rules.

[Troacctid]

Less appropriate class level and more of sufficient caster level, from what I recall - with the latter never really being defined anywhere since it's just assumed to be understood. It's... not a rule that comes up a lot since people generally don't try to lower their own caster level and usually don't get access to spells above the level they can cast.
The rules in the PHB for reading class entries provide a pretty solid argument that it is based on class level per the class's table.


The logic goes that "able to cast" and "currently available to cast" are not the same. If you have sanctum spell and 4th level spell slots, you are ABLE to cast 5th level spells, even if you do not necessarily have one in the chamber right now, just the same that you're ABLE to cast 4th level spells normally, even when you've expended all your 4th level spell slots.
The trouble with this line of logic is that it doesn't extrapolate very well, IMO, especially in regards to magic items. Carry a candle of invocation of your alignment and suddenly your spellcasting ability goes up, because you could potentially use it. Except you don't really NEED to have the candle, do you? Because there's always the potential that someone might hand you one, and if they did, you would be able to use it, wouldn't you?

[Crake]

The rules in the PHB for reading class entries provide a pretty solid argument that it is based on class level per the class's table.


The trouble with this line of logic is that it doesn't extrapolate very well, IMO, especially in regards to magic items. Carry a candle of invocation of your alignment and suddenly your spellcasting ability goes up, because you could potentially use it. Except you don't really NEED to have the candle, do you? Because there's always the potential that someone might hand you one, and if they did, you would be able to use it, wouldn't you?

This is why I add a silent, implicit “consistently without consuming otherwise finite resources” to any prerequisite, because you dont even need to go with a candle of invocation, you can literally just point at scrolls.

I also stick to one degree of separation as a default in all my extrapolations, because going beyond 1 degree instantly causes issues.


In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters) It's class level. Wizards get access to spells above their level all the time. They just can't cast them. If all it took to actually cast spells of a higher level was to just get access to spontaneous casting (alacratous cogitation) and versatile spellcaster, you'd see wizards do it all the time. But you don't, and the examples you see are simply people just trying to cheese the rules.

Context matters, and the context of this quote is clearly to illustrate that having a 14 intelligence doesnt give you the ability to cast 4th level spells or get a bonus 2nd level spell slot without having the wizard levels to provide you those things. It does not, however, mean that OTHER things cant provide that power, otherwise the precocious apprentice feat would be nonfunctional

[remetagross]

This is a really interesting discussion.


1. I have an Illumian Cleric 1st with Improved Power Sigil (Krau), Spontaneous Domain Casting and Sanctum Spell. I use my IPS (Krau) feat on, say, Cure Light Wounds. From now on, the effective spell level of CLW for all effects is 2. Now, I am currently outside my sanctum. This means that, if I spontaneously convert my 2nd level CLW, I can instead cast the 3rd-level spell from my domain, to which I have spontaneously applied the Sanctum Spell feat, so that its effective level goes down to 2. Is this correct?

2. With regard to the Precocious Apprentice feat. It says "Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells..." (emphasis mine) but we do not know whether this level is class level or caster level. However, later in the feat text, it says "Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level..." (emphasis mine). The fact that, this time, the word "caster" is specified in front of "level" tends to imply to me that, by reverse, the previous occurence of the word "level" did not mean "caster level". Else, it would have been called "caster level", as in other occurences in the feat text. I infer from that that, indeed, class level is required in all cases to cast spells of a certain level, since that feat specifically calls out an exception.

3. I suppose this means Versatile Spellcaster cannot be used by Beguilers to cast 9th-level spells at ECL 16 by combining two 8th-level spell slots. Ah, well.

4. I do think Crake has a point with regard to the "ability to cast spells" distinction. If all that matters is the ability to cast at all times a 3th-level spell, then fair enough, no Candle of Invocation nonsense. But that also means that as soon as my Wizard has expended all his 3th-level spell slots for the day, he suddenly stops qualifying for his prestige class. Which is nonsense as well.

[Gruftzwerg]

"If cast in your Sanctum". The spell you're trading away is never cast in your scenario‚ so it is of its normal level.

Imho the 2nd sentence implies that all effects based on spell lvl are affected by this. It is implying that effects not relying on casting are also affected by these changes (depending if you are in your sanctum or not). The last sentence makes sure that this doesn't affect spell slots.





In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters) It's class level. Wizards get access to spells above their level all the time. They just can't cast them. If all it took to actually cast spells of a higher level was to just get access to spontaneous casting (alacratous cogitation) and versatile spellcaster, you'd see wizards do it all the time. But you don't, and the examples you see are simply people just trying to cheese the rules.

Imho the limitation is bypassed by the spontaneous conversion. It gives permission to cast a spell of the level you traded in (or lower lvl) and thus simply ignores the general limitations.

It's specific trumps general. Similar like scrolls have specific rules that allow for limited use of scrolls of a higher lvl than you can actually cast. Same here. By casting spontaneous domain spells we trump the general rules in this situation.

[Darg]

Context matters, and the context of this quote is clearly to illustrate that having a 14 intelligence doesnt give you the ability to cast 4th level spells or get a bonus 2nd level spell slot without having the wizard levels to provide you those things. It does not, however, mean that OTHER things cant provide that power, otherwise the precocious apprentice feat would be nonfunctional

You say that, but the way it's worded contradicts your interpretation. It says "in addition," meaning what follows is also a requirement. The precocious apprentice feat specifically tells you it does grant you the ability to cast 2nd level spells. It grants you the ability to cast a single specific spell only. In this case specific trumps general in direct conflict.


Imho the limitation is bypassed by the spontaneous conversion. It gives permission to cast a spell of the level you traded in (or lower lvl) and thus simply ignores the general limitations.

It's specific trumps general. Similar like scrolls have specific rules that allow for limited use of scrolls of a higher lvl than you can actually cast. Same here. By casting spontaneous domain spells we trump the general rules in this situation.

This requires a reaching interpretation that the level an effect is cast at equates to the level of the spell you cast. All the evidence points to the contrary and to get to this interpretation one has to ignore the context a single statement from one single feat was made within.


4. I do think Crake has a point with regard to the "ability to cast spells" distinction. If all that matters is the ability to cast at all times a 3th-level spell, then fair enough, no Candle of Invocation nonsense. But that also means that as soon as my Wizard has expended all his 3th-level spell slots for the day, he suddenly stops qualifying for his prestige class. Which is nonsense as well.

And yet this issue is not an issue if the rule is that the ability to cast spells of a particular level is tied to class level. In the case of candle of invocation and all the other temporary bonuses, you lose access to feats you no longer have the prerequisite of. Though, if we are being fair the candle is quite unique because it also states that class level is the determinate factor for the ability to cast these higher level spells which further supports the rule that class level is what gives the ability to cast higher level spells.

[Troacctid]

This is why I add a silent, implicit “consistently without consuming otherwise finite resources” to any prerequisite, because you dont even need to go with a candle of invocation, you can literally just point at scrolls.

I also stick to one degree of separation as a default in all my extrapolations, because going beyond 1 degree instantly causes issues.
But you can't lean on reasonable intent-based interpretations with one hand and advocate for sequence-breaking glitches with the other. The same reading that allows for Sanctum Spell to cheat prerequisites also allows for magic items to do the same thing more cheaply and efficiently. And if you decide consumables are unreasonable and the DM should just say no, why shouldn't the DM also say that you lose your Sanctum-based prerequisites outside your sanctum? Or go even further and say that heighten tricks in general are against RAI and shouldn't work at all?

(The "Is it consumable?" barometer isn't great either. It just trades the "I have a scroll" problem for the "I have a schema" problem.)

[Crake]

But you can't lean on reasonable intent-based interpretations with one hand and advocate for sequence-breaking glitches with the other. The same reading that allows for Sanctum Spell to cheat prerequisites also allows for magic items to do the same thing more cheaply and efficiently. And if you decide consumables are unreasonable and the DM should just say no, why shouldn't the DM also say that you lose your Sanctum-based prerequisites outside your sanctum? Or go even further and say that heighten tricks in general are against RAI and shouldn't work at all?

(The "Is it consumable?" barometer isn't great either. It just trades the "I have a scroll" problem for the "I have a schema" problem.)

I mean, that's all totally within reason for a DM to determine. Personally, I don't see the value of discussing RAW in a vacuum, because it's never really going to be that simple. Everyone will have different lines of where they draw PO and TO, and that line may vary even with the same DM, but between games.

As an aside, I was merely explaining the logic behind the reasoning, not necessarily agreeing with it myself

[Bucky]

If you're going with that interpretation, why don't I stop qualifying for something with the prerequisite "Able to cast 2nd level spells" because I've spent all my 2nd level slots?

[Troacctid]

If you're going with that interpretation, why don't I stop qualifying for something with the prerequisite "Able to cast 2nd level spells" because I've spent all my 2nd level slots?
Complete Mage introduced separate criteria for "Available to cast" prerequisites that care about your current spell slots. In that example, you would be able to cast 2nd level spells, but you would not have 2nd level spells available to cast.

[remetagross]

Then, how about a Ranger 4 with a Wisdom of 11. He has 0 1st-level spells per day + 0 bonus 1st-level spells. He never has any "1st-level spells available to cast". Does he, or does he not, qualify for a prestige class asking for "ability to cast 1st-level spells"?

[Crake]

Then, how about a Ranger 4 with a Wisdom of 11. He has 0 1st-level spells per day + 0 bonus 1st-level spells. He never has any "1st-level spells available to cast". Does he, or does he not, qualify for a prestige class asking for "ability to cast 1st-level spells"?

He would not meet the criteria, due to lack of spell slots. If he invested into a +2 wis item, put his level up point into wis, or gained a level 1 spell slot via some means, he would the meet the requirement, but as is, having a spell slot to cast from is a requirement to meeting the “able to cast” prerequisite.

[remetagross]

Okay. Then, while we're at Sanctum Spell questions...Troactidd, why do you feel this feat is shakier as an early entry trick than, say, Earth Spell or Improved Sigil (Krau)?

[Troacctid]

Okay. Then, while we're at Sanctum Spell questions...Troactidd, why do you feel this feat is shakier as an early entry trick than, say, Earth Spell or Improved Sigil (Krau)?
1. You never actually have access to the ability to boost the spell's level because you're never actually in your sanctum.
2. The other ones all have the "when you cast the spell" clause, but Sanctum Spell is the only one that also has a "when you aren't casting the spell" clause that explicitly reverses the benefit for any purpose other than the casting itself.

[remetagross]

Okay, these are two good points.