Top 10 level 5 spells at ECL 10 & 20

[Anthrowhale]

We're halfway there! (See 0 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657743-Top-10-cantrips),1 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657825-Top-10-level-1-spells-at-ECL2-amp-20),2 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?658094-Top-10-level-2-spells-at-ECL-4-amp-20),3 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?658251-Top-10-level-3-spells-at-ECL6-amp-20),4 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?658751-Top-10-level-4-spells-at-ECL-8-amp-20#post25846144)), and now attempting to nail down the top 10 level 5 spells at ECL 10 and 20. Questions/Comments/Thoughts are welcome.

Some clarifying questions:
What level? Let's go with ECL10 and ECL20 (which is basically a limiting case). Note that bards don't quite get level 5 spells at ECL 10.
Essentials? Yes, let's include essentials like healing. There are many ways to find this in the game, but a list of 10 spells is also generous.
Combos? Yes, let's include relevant combos. These are most applicable in the ECL20 limit since often combos are incomplete at lower levels.
What about offbeat prestige classes giving early access? I'm happy to make a note about early access, but the general preference was to not include.
What level? For spells at different levels on different lists, it's the level on a core class or domain, and if that's not available on some other base class.

ECL 10

OW Lesser Planar Binding (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm). Conjuration(calling). Call elemental or outsider into a magic circle and force it to do what you want with a charisma check (possibly and success with surge of fortune...). This allows all the shenanigans with Animate with the Spirit/Lesser Planar Ally for level 4 spells, except the character chooses the creature rather than the deity, and there is no cost. Creatures may seek retribution, if they survive. Handbook here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?531126-Attempting-to-create-a-Planar-Binding-handbook-Need-some-help).
OW Teleport (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm). Conjuration(Teleportation). You + medium- creature/3 levels instantaneously transport up to 100miles/level. This obsoletes the "overland travel" part of adventure.
BDr5CDW6 Greater Dispel Magic (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm). Abjuration. Dispels spells with +min(20,caster level) bonus. Getting this as at ECL10 is tricky. Dread Necromancer is perhaps the easiest path. A Trapsmith has it at ECL10 as a level 3 spell.
DO Control Winds (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm). Transmutation[Air]. For 10 minutes/level increase wind speed by 1 level/3 caster levels up to tornado force winds in 40'/level radius causing Blown Away/Knocked Down/Checked, fortitude negates. A tornado (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds) is fairly dangerous, requiring a caster level of 21 in the worst case which is achievable in several ways. A tornado also devastates buildings.


ECL 20

C Surge of Fortune(Complete Champion). Transmutation. For round/level Luck+2 to attack, damage, saves, skill/ability checks, spell penetration checks, AC. As an immediate action discharge for a natural 20 on attack roll, saving throw, skill check, ability check, or spell penetration. Devastating when used for an attack roll with Sense Weakness, a high crit weapon, and power attack. Even worse when it's a vorpal weapon.
BW Unfettered Heroism(Races of Eberron). Transmutation. As an immediate action for round/level gain action point for 1 round. This is persistable. Action points allow you to add 2d6 or 3d6 to any d20 roll or use some class abilities. With feats you can take an extra standard action, apply metamagic for free, or use a wand/staff without expending a charge. With Primal Scholar 5, you can even recover L5- spells (like unfettered heroism).
W Skin of the Steel Dragon(Champions of Valor). Abjuration. As an immediate action for round/3 levels gain spell resistance = caster level+10. This is persistable, and at high caster levels provides nigh-immunity to all spells and SLAs that are SR:Yes.
W Alaunghaer's Triptych (https://web.archive.org/web/20210221204821/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20030226a). Transmutation. As a standard action + swift action activate 3 command word or spell trigger items. Staffs are generally the best choice here since they take effect with your caster level, which may be significantly elevated. This is to expensive to use when first available, but at ECL20 burning 750gp worth of charges (or whatever) for encounter domination is entirely reasonable. Imagine triple Wings of Flurry or Kelpstrand+Dimensional Anchor+Wall of Sand, or other such combos.


ECL 10&20

S Arcane Fusion(Complete Mage). Universal. Cast any standard action- sorcerer L4- spell and L1- spells. At a basic level this is two spells with one action. At a highr optimization level Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion] or other approaches to free metamagic Twin Arcane Thesis doubles the action efficiency.
W5O6 Magic Jar (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm). Necromancy. For hour/level possess creatures within 10'/level in line of effect, Will negates. This has several distinct uses. For party buffing, you can possess willing allies and cast personal long-duration buffs on the body. For scouting, within 10'/level you can detect all creatures, whether they are undead-based or not, and whether hit dice are greater than or less than comparators with a 4HD margin. For attack, you can possess enemies directly, betray enemy allies, and enjoy retribution on your possessed body without concern. If the only spell you have is Magic Jar, you can contribute meaningfully to your party for an entire adventuring day. With extra spells, the chaos only increases---imagine possessing a creature in the middle of an enemy horde and then casting Wings of Flurry declaring "you" (i.e. the body you are possessing) an enemy as well.
C5OW7 Plane Shift (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm). Conjuration(Teleportation). This is a triple-duty spell: party transport to other planes, a touch range will save or die via transport to a negative or positive dominant plane, and a defense against the previous.
W Contact Other Plane (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm). Divination. One question answered /2 levels with one-word answers by denizens of other planes with up to 88% chance of true answer after an intelligence check to avoid having Int and Cha reduced to 8. Surge of Fortune or possibly Power Leech makes the intelligence check routinely passable. This is an extremely powerful source of information that really changes the nature of the game. You can do "20 questions with error checking" to discover amazingly obscure information. If you aren't ready to deal with the finickiness of COP (passing Int checks and error checking), Susurrus of the City from the Urban druid list can be almost as good in the right city. For example, "someone in Sigil" knows the answers to many questions, and makes Gather Information simply obsolete.
Co Power Leech(BoVD). Necromancy[Evil]. For round/level drain chosen ability score by 1 and gain enhancement bonus = total points drained to your ability score. This potentially cumulative with Owl's Insight for Wisdom and in any case allows an enormous bonus to stats for most or all of an adventuring day with Extend spell. For example, if you "only" have an intelligence of 36(=20 base+5(level)+5(inherent)+6(enhancement)) and have a friend that can cast restoration, drain yourself to 0 to pick up a +36(enhancement) bonus to intelligence for a modified intelligence of 66(=20(base)+5(level)+5(inherent)+36(enhancement). Amongst other things, this puts save DCs for spells in the 39-47 level, enough to make most vanilla monsters fail saves on all but a 20.
W Telekinesis (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm). Transmutation. For round/level while concentrating move up to 375lbs 20'/round, combat maneuver, or violent thrust 1 object/level maximum 15 objects weighing 15 lbs or less 10'/level at a target ending the spell. This is a broad utility spell for moving and/or attacking without actually being there. At one extreme you might violent thrust 15 Shalantha's Delicate Disk's and followup with a fireball to set them all off simultaneously. As another you might just want to extract the mcguffin you see from the trap filled room without actually going in there (or touching it).


B=Bard, C=Cleric, Co=Corrupt, D=Druid, Dr=Dread Necromancer, O=dOmain, S=Sorcerer Only, W=Wizard

Counts by:
class: 1B, 1.5C, 1Co, 0.5D, 0.5Dr, 1.5O, 1S, 5.5W
school: 1 Abj, 2 Conj, 1 Div, 2 Necro, 3 Trans, 1 Universal
modifiers: 0.5 Air, 0.5 Calling, 1 Evil, 1.5 Teleportation
source: 1 BoVD, 0.5 CC, 0.5 CoV, 1 CM, 6 PHB, 0.5 RoE, 0.5 Web

Probably not?
Righteous Might. Nice combat bonuses, but those aren't really needed.
Greater Enlarge Person. Righteous Might is better if you can persist it.
Extract Gift. Use items instead.
Reciprocal Gyre. This could be called "persistomancer's bane". To niche for a top-10 spell, but maybe a top-10 antiparty spell.
CW Streamers(Shining South). Evocation. For round/level up to 4x streamers each dealing 5d10 damage whenever creature takes an action. Streamers destroyed on any attack. An excellent target for invisible spell and a rod of maximize spell. The lack of scaling at high levels, vulnerability of the streamers, and potential lack of effect with purely mental actions makes this not quite compelling enough.
Greater Stone Shape. Get an adamantine weapon and use Wall of Stone or use Fabricate.
Spell Haven. Any L5- spell as an immediate action, but the feat cost seems to high.
Wall of Force. Definitely a great spell, but wall of stone is more adaptable.
W Overland Flight (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/overlandFlight.htm). Transmutation. For hour/level 40(average) flight. Flight is quite useful in general, and this lasts all day. There are many ways to get flight though.
W Storm Touch(Magic of Eberron) Evocation[Electricity] 9d6 electricity+Stun fort negates touch attacks up to <level> times. The Rules Compendium says you can deliver all those touch attacks in a single round when casting, but this seems to be controversial.
Transfusion from Dragon #339. This provides an untyped bonus up to +7 or so to stats (if empowered and maximized) for minute/level. The untyped nature here is fantastic but not overwhelming while the short duration limits applicability.
COW5D6 Wall of Stone (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfStone.htm). Conjuration(Creation)[Earth]. 5' square/level 1"/4 levels thick in a shapeable way with Reflex negates trapping. This ages somewhat as more creatures have the strength to break through and/or teleport to escape. This is readily available from bound minions
B5W6 Mass Suggestion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestionMass.htm). Enchantment(Compulsion)[Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting]. For hour/level creature/level executes reasonable-sounding suggestion, Will negates. This is something like Mass Lesser Dominate Monster. It's a great effect, but immune to mind-affecting is common at higher levels and you can imitate to some extent with a lesser rod of chain spell and suggestion.
Draconic Polymorph. A definitely-better polymorph, but Shapechange ends up better-yet at the high level and it's not that much better at ECL10.
Dragonblood Spell-pact. This spell has the amazing effect of swapping spells known with another spellcaster. The dragonblood requirement is easily met by polymorph, so a favored soul and a sorcerer (for example) could swap spells providing durable off-list access. This isn't a top-10 spell because because it requires XP sacrifice from both participants and the implied gp cost exceeds the 3k gp limit of routine spellcasting services at 2nd or 3rd level spells. There are already mechanisms like Anyspell for offlist access to L2 spells. Whether NPCs are willing or able to pay more is DM-dependent. PCs could of course do so directly, but typically parties are small providing limited opportunity.
Permanency. This can make several spells permanent. It's a convenient effect, but you have an increasing number of spells available by this level implying it's often possible to manage coverage with the spells in question as needed.
Telekinesis. This is a good utility and combat spell. The violent thrust maneuver in particular has quite a bit of potential. Nevertheless it's limited by the 15 attacks happening on the same target. For example, using a Bloodfreeze arrow with a heavily increased save DC, a single Bloodfreeze arrow is all that you need.
OW Fabricate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm). Transmutation. Convert 10 ft^3/level into a product of same material with a craft check. This is amazing if you can make high craft skill checks because craft is otherwise nearly impossibly slow to use. Alchemy, poisons, mundane masterwork items, etc... can all be rapidly crafted. Trapsmith gets this as a level 3 spell. Removed, because this is sometimes-useful spell which will be accessible anyway with 6th level spells via Greater Anyspell.
D Owl's Insight(Spell Compendium). Transmutation. For 1 hour, Wisdom+(caster level)/2(insight) to touched creature. With a caster level of 48 that's +24 to wisdom giving +12 to spell save DCs and 3 extra spells/level for a wis-based caster. This is an extremely powerful effect, with the only downside being the 1 hour duration. Extend spell helps while Ocular+Persistent makes it absurdly powerful. Unfortunately, Power Leech has a stronger effect for longer, and the benefit of Power Leech appears adequate for penetrating the DCs of published monsters.
CO5W6D7 True Seeing (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm). For minute/level see through all illusions and transmutations in 120'. This completely defeats major forms of attack. At high levels, it's accessible on the cheap and for longer durations via Shapechange. At earlier levels, there are potentially minions who can use it all the time, spellcraft can potentially detect the existence (but not see through) illusions, a superior listen/spot can penetrate, and blindsight can penetrate. The cost and short duration of this spell are also somewhat prohibitive. At the same time, you can't target what you can't see, so this remains a critical spell enabling other spells. To get around this, a high spellcraft check (which can easily be achieved via L1 spells) allows you to detect illusions and then with a will save see through them.
W Flesh to Ice(Frostburn). Transmutation. At medium range one creature and it's items turn to ice, fortitude negates. This seems to be the earliest combat cast fort-or-lose-all-actions which can be particularly telling against spell caster types. It beats out Baleful Polymorph by having medium instead of close range. Nevertheless, such creatures are typically also vulnerable to Call Avalanche and Flesh to Ice will be available via Greater Anyspell next level.
D Call Avalanche(Frostburn). Evocation[Cold]. In 10'/level radius at long range bury creatures reflex negates + 8d6 damage reflex half. Buried is a highly disabling condition. A spellwarp sniper can even bury with no save. This ages a bit, just because more and more creatures have the strength and/or ability to teleport for an escape. It's off the top-10 list because it's outside-only.

[RandomPeasant]

Probably magic jar over lesser planar binding. 6 HD at ECL 10 is just not that good, and magic jar is nuts.

draconic polymorph belongs on the list. Yes, I know polymorph was last level, but it's (almost, Personal range can be annoying since mostly you'd prefer to stick your buffs on the Cleric) strictly better, and polymorph itself would easily make the list if it was a 5th level spell instead of a 4th level one.

dragonblood spell-pact is worth mentioning at this level, but is weird because the nature of it means there is no particular reason for you to personally know it. Trading off swift etherealness and telepathic bond for whatever you want as a Beguiler, or undeath to death and blight as a Dread Necromancer, or basically any of your spells as a Warmage is absolutely nuts. It's also not really good for the Sorcerer it's clearly intended for, because you can't really use it often enough to come out ahead compared to just learning better spells in the first place.

control winds is a weird call because at 20th level you'll have control weather, which is massively better, and the idea that there are a meaningful number of situations where economizing the slot matters for that kind of widespread devastation much seems dubious.

unfettered heroism seems dubious on its own, particularly at 10th level. It's really good with Primal Scholar, but outside that it's kind of dubious, particularly since plenty of campaigns will just not use action points.

I'm not really sure what you see in storm touch. Sure, you can touch everybody at once, but you still have to be able to touch all of them and it doesn't double up. If you, as a Sorcerer or Wizard, want a Fort-targeting spell at this level, wrack is much, much better. Or baleful polymorph if the type restriction chafes you.

[eggynack]

control winds is a weird call because at 20th level you'll have control weather, which is massively better, and the idea that there are a meaningful number of situations where economizing the slot matters for that kind of widespread devastation much seems dubious..
Control weather has a long casting time rendering it pretty unusable in combat scenarios. It might be of note that tornados actually are accessible at ECL 10 if you toss on some caster level boosters. It's expensive but not necessarily ludicrously so. Also, maybe worth tossing blizzard into contention? Control winds, call avalanche, and blizzard are like the big three of chonky 5th level weather explosion spells. Not sure whether blizzard or call avalanche is the winner, but that probably renders blizzard worthy of discussion unto itself.

[Inevitability]

Plane Shift (clr 5). Will save-or-die (positive and negative energy plane are both pretty quick deaths) that bypasses immunity to death/mind-affecting/whatever. Also, you can use it for regular planar travel, suppose that ever comes up.

The only downside is that it doesn't leave loot behind, but that's a fixed problem at higher levels (make a small negative-dominant demiplane and send your victims there, then clean it out every once in a while).

[Chronos]

It's worth remembering with Control Winds that in many places, the naturally-existing wind level will be somewhere a step or three above "calm", which brings Hurricane and Tornado online earlier. And that area of effect is huge. If he had prepared it, Durkon could have pretty much single-handedly won the Battle of Azure City (except for the part about the epic-level lich, of course).

[Quertus]

Plane Shift (clr 5). Will save-or-die (positive and negative energy plane are both pretty quick deaths) that bypasses immunity to death/mind-affecting/whatever. Also, you can use it for regular planar travel, suppose that ever comes up.

The only downside is that it doesn't leave loot behind, but that's a fixed problem at higher levels (make a small negative-dominant demiplane and send your victims there, then clean it out every once in a while).

I'll second this, and add that it greatly increases the potential scope of the campaign (even if the PCs only use it to collect components to make their custom magic creations cool - a staff made from wood from the World Tree, waxed with Mechanus gear grease, and topped with a crystal orb containing bottled Celestial clouds?). Or, heck, cast it twice to travel 5d100 miles in a random direction, if that's your jam. Difficult for your opponents to predict your motions when you yourself don't even know where you're headed. :smallamused:

[Fero]

Some suggestions (will post comments on posted spells, spells to remove, later when I have a chance)

Dragonsight: Excellent darkvision and blindness for a long duration.

Owl's Insight: Potentially huge wisdom bonus. A druid using Circle Magic (See Ghostwalk) can rock a +20 Wis

Skin of the Steel Dragon: Immediate action SR based on your CL. Incredible for high CL builds. Persitible.

Dragonmark Demesne: Requires a dragonmark but incredibly good one way forcefield/sight blocker.

Freezing Fog: absolutely brutal tool to lock combatants out of combat for several rounds. [EDIT- IGNORE, WRONG LEVEL]

Call Faithful Servants: You can get a decent number of tiny minions with SLAs and ranged touch attacks. Can build fairly brutal firing lines.

Call Nightmare: Get a Nightmare for a year that has two 9th level at will SLAs. Astral Projection is particularly powerful/abusable.

Summon Undead V: Can create shadows. Shadows can create additional, permanent, shadows. Clerics can rebuke shadows. Those shadows can create/control more shadows, giving the cleric an indescriminently large army of incorpeal undead with strength drain.

Necrotic Skull Bomb: Swift action AoE enervation effect.

Telekinesis: Good utility spell and potentially one of the best offensive spells in the game. Launch up to 15 objects at a foe. The power is only limited to the quality of what you can find to launch.

Frost Vortex (from Wyrms of the North): Like a lower damage cold fireball, except it remains in the area as a trap indefinitely until someone enters the area.

Permanency: Makes things permanent

Alaunghaer's Triptych (Wyrms of the North):
Activate a bunch of wands at once. Similar action economy to Time Stop.

Focal Stone (Wyrms of the North) Essentially lets you create slightly less good attuned gems, but at much lower cost, in less time, and without the feat. Attuned gems are very good, thus so is this.

[Anthrowhale]

magic jar is nuts
Yeah, it's very good.



draconic polymorph

I'll think about it. The duplication with Polymorph is somewhat off-putting.



dragonblood spell-pact

Oh, right. An amazing effect you rarely use.



control winds

Control weather seems more like a strategic effect in most situations. Control Winds is more tactical (=useful in practice).



unfettered heroism seems dubious on its own, particularly at 10th level. It's really good with Primal Scholar, but outside that it's kind of dubious, particularly since plenty of campaigns will just not use action points.

Are action points optional in Eberron? My impressions is that they are just part of the setting.



I'm not really sure what you see in storm touch. Sure, you can touch everybody at once, but you still have to be able to touch all of them and it doesn't double up.
Why do you believe it doesn't allow doubling up?


Also, maybe worth tossing blizzard into contention?
I don't see Blizzard adding much to a battlefield beyond Control Winds?


Plane Shift (clr 5).
That's good, and it pairs with teleport for a greater plane shift effect.



Dragonsight: Excellent darkvision and blindness for a long duration.

It's a good sensory spell. Half normal range penalties on spot sounds very good. The darkvision and blindsense are ok, but there are other ways to access this.



Owl's Insight: Potentially huge wisdom bonus. A druid using Circle Magic (See Ghostwalk) can rock a +20 Wis

Ah yes, we need to find some way for this.

Ghostwalk Circle Magic only goes to caster level 20, but a Hathran can be a Druid.



Skin of the Steel Dragon: Immediate action SR based on your CL. Incredible for high CL builds. Persitible.

Immunity to SR:Yes spells is pretty amazing.



Dragonmark Demesne: Requires a dragonmark but incredibly good one way forcefield/sight blocker.

If I understand correctly, it's an immobile double radius antilife shell that blocks all creatures. The obscuring effects appear surpassed by Snowsight+Obscuring Snow.


Freezing Fog: absolutely brutal tool to lock combatants out of combat for several rounds.

Level 6, right?



Call Faithful Servants: You can get a decent number of tiny minions with SLAs and ranged touch attacks. Can build fairly brutal firing lines.

Surpassed by Lesser Planar Binding / Lesser Spirit Binding.


Call Nightmare: Get a Nightmare for a year that has two 9th level at will SLAs. Astral Projection is particularly powerful/abusable.

Lesser Planar Binding instead.



Summon Undead V: Can create shadows. Shadows can create additional, permanent, shadows. Clerics can rebuke shadows. Those shadows can create/control more shadows, giving the cleric an indescriminently large army of incorpeal undead with strength drain.

The blowback here could get messy, and there are already ways to get lots of minions.


Necrotic Soul Bomb: Swift action AoE enervation effect.

Where is this?


Telekinesis: Good utility spell and potentially one of the best offensive spells in the game. Launch up to 15 objects at a foe. The power is only limited to the quality of what you can find to launch.

Ah yes. Potentially devastating with Bloodfreeze arrow.


Frost Vortex (from Wyrms of the North): Like a lower damage cold fireball, except it remains in the area as a trap indefinitely until someone enters the area.

This seems ok, although perhaps not top-10.


Permanency: Makes things permanent

A quite potent effect, especially when combined with Magic Jar.


Alaunghaer's Triptych (Wyrms of the North):
Activate a bunch of wands at once. Similar action economy to Time Stop.

Which article?



Focal Stone (Wyrms of the North) Essentially lets you create slightly less good attuned gems, but at much lower cost, in less time, and without the feat. Attuned gems are very good, thus so is this.
What makes it a much lower cost?

[Quertus]

Summon Undead V… Shadows… an army of Shadows… well, there’s a lot to unpack here. This is incredible Power, and incredible consequences for failure. But the biggest issue IMO is the gentleman’s agreement, or that using this tech requires people to stop plugging their ears while singing “lalalala, can’t hear you” about various D&D-specific apocalypses.

Permanency has a similar “at the worst table for it, would you really use it?” dilemma. Not just rules, but also table culture - if every other encounter involves Dispel effects, this seems like a trap.

I agree that both of these are starting at my tables, but I wouldn’t choose them under several other GMs I’ve known.

[Fero]

Summon Undead V… Shadows… an army of Shadows… well, there’s a lot to unpack here. This is incredible Power, and incredible consequences for failure. But the biggest issue IMO is the gentleman’s agreement, or that using this tech requires people to stop plugging their ears while singing “lalalala, can’t hear you” about various D&D-specific apocalypses.

Permanency has a similar “at the worst table for it, would you really use it?” dilemma. Not just rules, but also table culture - if every other encounter involves Dispel effects, this seems like a trap.

I agree that both of these are starting at my tables, but I wouldn’t choose them under several other GMs I’ve known.

I agree that thenshadow army idea is only viable in the most absurd of campaigns (or a campaign where the DM painted herself i.to a corner and needs the players to do something crazy to reset the game world). That said, these posts tend to be more about theoretical power than use in actual games, thus the inclusion.

Whether or not Permanency is broken depends on what spells the DM lets it extend to.

[RandomPeasant]

Summon Undead V: Can create shadows. Shadows can create additional, permanent, shadows. Clerics can rebuke shadows. Those shadows can create/control more shadows, giving the cleric an indescriminently large army of incorpeal undead with strength drain.

I feel like if your plan involves a "then the Cleric rebukes a shadow" step, the contribution of summon undead V is fairly marginal.


Frost Vortex (from Wyrms of the North): Like a lower damage cold fireball, except it remains in the area as a trap indefinitely until someone enters the area.

Why would a lower damage fireball make the 5th level list. fireball shouldn't even be on the 3rd level list.


Permanency: Makes things permanent

The problem here is that just casting permanency is kinda mediocre because it means turning dispel magic from "debuff you" to "you permanently lose XP". permanency is good in a build with CL boost for protection from dispelling and/or a way to ignore XP costs, but those things are also just good on their own.


I'll think about it. The duplication with Polymorph is somewhat off-putting.

If you can put fireball and wings of flurry on the lists, you can put polymorph and draconic polymorph on them.


Control weather seems more like a strategic effect in most situations. Control Winds is more tactical (=useful in practice).

That just means it competes with other, better, spells. Cast freezing fog instead.


Are action points optional in Eberron? My impressions is that they are just part of the setting.

Are we putting setting-specific spells on the list? Again, what are the actual criteria for what gets on the list.


Why do you believe it doesn't allow doubling up?

Why do you believe it does? It's "Target: Up to one creature/level touched".

[Anthrowhale]

I agree that thenshadow army idea is only viable in the most absurd of campaigns (or a campaign where the DM painted herself i.to a corner and needs the players to do something crazy to reset the game world). That said, these posts tend to be more about theoretical power than use in actual games, thus the inclusion.

I'd assume high odds of it going pear-shape with reset to a dead world. Really though, there are tons of minions. Why use the ones that are so likely to result in backblast?

Whether or not Permanency is broken depends on what spells the DM lets it extend to.
I'd only allow it for stated-allowed permanency spells.


If you can put fireball and wings of flurry on the lists, you can put polymorph and draconic polymorph on them.

Draconic Polymorph seems much more similar to Polymorph to me. The only real qualitative difference the ability to assume 20HD forms. More versatility is good, of course, but I don't have something specific which is much better in the 16-20HD range. (Or 19-23HD range if you are using Reserves of Strength).



That just means it competes with other, better, spells. Cast freezing fog instead.

Why point out freezing fog? It's 6th level in spell compendium which I believe is authoritative.


Are we putting setting-specific spells on the list?

Yes.


Why do you believe it does? It's "Target: Up to one creature/level touched".
It also says:

You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level. and
...dealing 9d6 points of electricity damage with a successful melee touch attack. and
Duration: Instantaneous. So you can attack up to one creature/level, but nothing states that you must attack more than one creature. It's like Telekinesis (15 attacks) or Magic Missile (up to 5 attacks).

The text from Rules Compendium is on page 136:

If a spell allows its caster to make multiple attacks and has a casting time of 1 standard action, all those attacks occur during during that standard action.
So, you definitely make all the attacks while casting.

[RandomPeasant]

I'd assume high odds of it going pear-shape with reset to a dead world. Really though, there are tons of minions. Why use the ones that are so likely to result in backblast?

There are a lot of monsters that don't have anything to target incorporeal and aren't immune to ability damage, so the shadow is a pretty good assassin even if you're not going full Shadow Over The Sun. That said, in combat summoning is just not that great, so I'm skeptical it earns a slot.


Draconic Polymorph seems much more similar to Polymorph to me. The only real qualitative difference the ability to assume 20HD forms. More versatility is good, of course, but I don't have something specific which is much better in the 16-20HD range. (Or 19-23HD range if you are using Reserves of Strength).

Yes it's also much better. This idea you have that the only thing that matters is relative coverage is bizarre. Hell, you also believe that Touch can't be made Persistent, so there's a big reason to put draconic polymorph in even under your standards.


Why point out freezing fog? It's 6th level in spell compendium which I believe is authoritative.

I suspect that most tables are not figuring out the source precedence hierarchy to determine what level spells are. It's 5th level in Complete Arcane. In any case, that's sort of besides the point, since control winds is only on your list at ECL 20 to begin with, so the question is whether the extra spell level is worth the cost, and I'd submit that it is.


It also says:

That's not contradictory. You can attack up to one creature per level, and you can make one attack per level. There's no explicit permission to do the thing you want, and the thing you want is laughably broken, why would we assume you get to do the thing you want?


So, you definitely make all the attacks while casting.

I mean, sure, but you make them against different creatures and at Touch range so it's not actually very impressive.

[Anthrowhale]

Yes it's also much better.

Str+8 and Con+2 are ok, but you could do better than that with Righteous Might if you cared.


Hell, you also believe that Touch can't be made Persistent, so there's a big reason to put draconic polymorph in even under your standards.

Most techniques allowing persistent draconic polymorph can also function for persistent ocular polymorph so this seems like no biggy.


I suspect that most tables are not figuring out the source precedence hierarchy to determine what level spells are. It's 5th level in Complete Arcane. In any case, that's sort of besides the point, since control winds is only on your list at ECL 20 to begin with, so the question is whether the extra spell level is worth the cost, and I'd submit that it is.

Let's worry about it at L6.


That's not contradictory. You can attack up to one creature per level, and you can make one attack per level. There's no explicit permission to do the thing you want, and the thing you want is laughably broken, why would we assume you get to do the thing you want?

The default rule is that you can choose any available creature for each attack, right? It seems rather strange to imagine that's not the default. Consider Telekinesis with the violent thrust option for example and compare with Chain Lightning which explicitly says "no target can be struck more than once".

[Chronos]

As written, Storm Touch would allow you to make all of the attacks against one opponent, but all that does is give you more chances to get a hit. If you hit (at all), you deal the damage. Once. It never says that you deal that damage per hit.

Permanency, RAW, only works on that specific list of spells. It gives the DM explicit permission to extend it to other spells, but for purposes of this discussion, I think we need to assume just what's on the list. And just what's on that list is... kind of underwhelming, really.

[RandomPeasant]

Str+8 and Con+2 are ok, but you could do better than that with Righteous Might if you cared.

Sure, if you cast two separate spells, that would be better than casting one single spell. But if you are comparing individual spells, draconic polymorph > polymorph.


Let's worry about it at L6.

Won't the argument at L6 just be that it's redundant with the effect we have at L5? I don't think you've really thought about the mechanics of this process as well as you should.


The default rule is that you can choose any available creature for each attack, right?

Why would the default rule apply when the spell explicitly states that you target multiple creatures?


As written, Storm Touch would allow you to make all of the attacks against one opponent, but all that does is give you more chances to get a hit. If you hit (at all), you deal the damage. Once. It never says that you deal that damage per hit.

This is a fair point too. I just don't see how you are going to be able to make the sell that this spell does 90d6 damage and ten saves, and without that it just doesn't seem very good. Walking up to touch range of multiple enemies seems bad as a Sorcerer or Wizard, and for the general category of "touch-range Fort-save spells" slay living seems better.


Permanency, RAW, only works on that specific list of spells. It gives the DM explicit permission to extend it to other spells, but for purposes of this discussion, I think we need to assume just what's on the list. And just what's on that list is... kind of underwhelming, really.

Isn't there some stuff in later books that is explicitly tagged as working with permanency? permanency + symbol spells is also pretty good once you get there. The issue, IMO, is more that the XP cost stacks up quickly and presents an unacceptable risk if you aren't CL-boosting your way out of dispelling range. permanency is a powerful tool to abuse with e.g. Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell limited wish, but on its own I think it's very rarely worth it.

[Anthrowhale]

I've added Owl's Insight and Magic Jar. We're currently missing an ECL10 entry, and there are several more good choices to consider. Further thoughts on what to downgrade are quite welcome.

W.r.t. Lesser Planer Binding, it is allowing you to pick significant SLAs not available for picking with L4 spells. Example: Simulacrum, at will dimension door, etc...

Skin of the Steel Dragon seems like a great ECL20 spell.
Plane Shift seem like a good ECL10&20 spell.

Dragonmark Demesne seems interesting. The stationary nature makes it a little bit iffy.
Draconic Polymorph seems interesting.

Where is Alaunghaer's Triptych more precisely?


As written, Storm Touch would allow you to make all of the attacks against one opponent, but all that does is give you more chances to get a hit. If you hit (at all), you deal the damage. Once. It never says that you deal that damage per hit.
I don't see that reading, but you've convinced me it's controversial, so I downgraded.


Won't the argument at L6 just be that it's redundant with the effect we have at L5? I don't think you've really thought about the mechanics of this process as well as you should.

Proceeding level-by-level is what I can manage for now.


Isn't there some stuff in later books that is explicitly tagged as working with permanency? permanency + symbol spells is also pretty good once you get there. The issue, IMO, is more that the XP cost stacks up quickly and presents an unacceptable risk if you aren't CL-boosting your way out of dispelling range. permanency is a powerful tool to abuse with e.g. Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell limited wish, but on its own I think it's very rarely worth it.
Yeah, permanency symbol spells on shields are a pretty amazing effect.

[Anthrowhale]

Ah, and we should consider Contact Other Plane. With Surge of Fortune, you can even reliably avoid the downside.

Edit: Another interesting spell which probably doesn't reach top-10 is Transfusion which provides an untyped bonus of (1d6+5)/2 to a stat for minute/level (and a penalty on some minion).

[Fero]

Focal Stone is from the Wyrms of the North article for Valamaradace, "the Dragon Queen," originally in Dragon 257. Per my reading, the spell is cheaper than an attuned gem b/c you only need to satisfy the cost of the gem itself, not the other components (see also Attune Gem feat).

Alaunghaer's Triptych is from the Wyrms of the North article for Valamaradace, "the Dragon Queen," originally from Dragon 257.

Including Freezing Fog was a mistake on my part, forgot about the level change.

Similarly, my reference to Necrotic "Soul" Bomb was a typographical error, I meant Necrotic "Skull" Bomb. My fat fingers and my phone's overly aggressive auto spelling seldom get along. I will correct that post. Sorry for the confusion.

[Anthrowhale]

Focal Stone is from the Wyrms of the North article for Valamaradace, "the Dragon Queen," originally in Dragon 257. Per my reading, the spell is cheaper than an attuned gem b/c you only need to satisfy the cost of the gem itself, not the other components (see also Attune Gem feat).

You still have to cast the spell in the round following, so all costs for casting the spell should be incurred, yes?

Shalantha's Delicate Disk at 6th level seems far better as far as dodging item costs.


Alaunghaer's Triptych is from the Wyrms of the North article for Valamaradace, "the Dragon Queen," originally from Dragon 257.

I only see Focal Stone and Greater Levitate here (https://web.archive.org/web/20080519080021/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20040225a).

But, after some searching, I found it here (https://web.archive.org/web/20210221204821/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20030226a). I think my biggest concern is the costs. When burning through 3 staff charges in a round, the costs will add up rather quickly. I think it's about 1K gp/casting to trigger 3 staffs with 5th level spells.


Similarly, my reference to Necrotic "Soul" Bomb was a typographical error, I meant Necrotic "Skull" Bomb. My fat fingers and my phone's overly aggressive auto spelling seldom get along. I will correct that post. Sorry for the confusion.
The Fort negates makes this kind of iffy in my mind. It's a decent debuff, but wouldn't you rather Call Avalanche?

[Anthrowhale]

I added Plane Shift for ECL10&20, and downgraded Wall of Stone to ECL10. Is Plane Shift still the go-to planar transport method at ECL20?

Dragonmark Demesne is reminding me of Hand of the Faithful except that it's Save:No, SR:No, only a standard action cast, and double the radius as well. It's tempting, but what to drop?

Contact Other Plane (+Surge of Fortune) seems quite good as a downtime spell. There's really no reason to go for less than a Greater Deity. The biggest drawback I see is that it's DM-dependent so deities may say "Unknown" for things outside of their portfolio.

Skin of the Steel Dragon seems very good at ECL20 where elevated caster level is easy.

Triptych remains interesting, but the cost is worrisome.

I'm still not seeing the case for Draconic Polymorph at the moment, but haven't ruled it out. The polymorph handbook (https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=519.msg2515#msg2515) lists Marilith, Pit Fiend, Balor, etc..., but they seem "eh" as a combat form compared to a Kelvezu. Also, Shapechange will be online at ECL20.

Above all: "what to drop" seems important. I'm getting more sympathetic to dropping Lesser Planar Binding in light of available options at 4th level.

[Fero]

I would consider dropping.

1. Call Avelanche: This is a potent AoE save or suck but I don't think comes close to the world bending power of the other items on this list. It won't fundamentally change the campaign like teleport/ plane shift. It doesn't give you hundreds of options like planar binding. It is a great combat spell, but that is it.

2. Mass Suggestion: Ditto

3. Control Winds: The AoE is so big that it is hard to actually use this spell unless you are willing to go full murder hobo. Even then, your party may not very happy with you blowing them everywhere. That said, if used, I recommend pairing it with the silver from Pandemonium in the CW.

4. Wall of Stone. I love this spell. However, there are good walks at lower levels. Also, it is primarily only useful in combat. Further, the effect is rather small unless you have CL boosters.

[Chronos]

Summon Undead V for a shadow definitely shouldn't be on the list, meanwhile, because you can get the same benefits (incorporeal minion with a stat-draining attack) from an Allip, with Summon Undead IV.

[ayvango]

OW Lesser Planar Binding. Conjuration(calling).

The most cheating spell for the 5th level. Call a planar creature unimpeded. Make a fair fight with it. Earn your honest XP for winning a hard fight. No need to scout dungeons. Just get your XP on the doorstep.

[Anthrowhale]

I would consider dropping.

1. Call Avelanche: This is a potent AoE save or suck but I don't think comes close to the world bending power of the other items on this list. It won't fundamentally change the campaign like teleport/ plane shift. It doesn't give you hundreds of options like planar binding. It is a great combat spell, but that is it.

2. Mass Suggestion: Ditto

3. Control Winds: The AoE is so big that it is hard to actually use this spell unless you are willing to go full murder hobo. Even then, your party may not very happy with you blowing them everywhere. That said, if used, I recommend pairing it with the silver from Pandemonium in the CW.

4. Wall of Stone. I love this spell. However, there are good walks at lower levels. Also, it is primarily only useful in combat. Further, the effect is rather small unless you have CL boosters.
Interesting suggestions.

Perhaps we should either go with Call Avalanche or Wall of Stone, not both, since they both rely on a Reflex save.

Control Winds says it can be a smaller cylinder, as desired.

In terms of attack spells, we have:
[Mind-affecting] Will Negates: Heartache (helpless) or Vision of Punishment (nausea), Suggestion (actions).
Will out of combat: Charm Person (friends), Command Undead (friends)
Reflex: Entangle(Impede)
Will: Plane Shift (Castaway), Magic Jar (possess)
Fortitude: Bloodfreeze Arrow (Paralyze)
No save: Bladesong(melee), Shivering Touch (dex damage), Kelpstrand (Grapple), Wall of Sand (Impede, Suffocate)

The "Reflex" category seems like it's particularly lacking. Suggestion could be replaced with a chain rod of suggestion, although the -7 to save DC is a bit hard to swallow.

Control Winds is Fort negates which we rejected last level.


Summon Undead V for a shadow definitely shouldn't be on the list, meanwhile, because you can get the same benefits (incorporeal minion with a stat-draining attack) from an Allip, with Summon Undead IV.
Lesser Spirit Binding has this covered at the previous level as well.


The most cheating spell for the 5th level. Call a planar creature unimpeded. Make a fair fight with it. Earn your honest XP for winning a hard fight. No need to scout dungeons. Just get your XP on the doorstep.
While I agree it's good, I feel like Lesser Spirit Binding stole the thunder a level earlier to some extent.

[RandomPeasant]

I'm still not seeing the case for Draconic Polymorph at the moment, but haven't ruled it out. The polymorph handbook (https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=519.msg2515#msg2515) lists Marilith, Pit Fiend, Balor, etc..., but they seem "eh" as a combat form compared to a Kelvezu. Also, Shapechange will be online at ECL20.

The case for draconic polymorph is that it is one of the best spells at its level in the game, and this is supposed to be a list of the best spells in the game by level. This idea you have where this is somehow an exact script for what spells to pick up just doesn't make any sense. No one is considering, for instance, choosing between enhance wild shape and wings of flurry, because the former is a spell that does nothing if you are not a Druid and the latter is a spell that is unavailable to Druids.

Imagine, for the moment, you have decided that, based on the resources available to you as a 10th level character, you are going to have two Persistent buffs. Is polymorph + righteous might really better than divine power + draconic polymorph? I don't think so. The former means a smaller STR bonus, less HP and a worse BAB. In exchange, you get slightly better defenses, and are a size larger -- which isn't even clearly an upside, considering that you probably want to (draconic) polymorph into a form that is at least Large, meaning you quickly start hitting a size where you just can't get around the adventuring environment.


Above all: "what to drop" seems important.

greater dispel magic is not really a top-tier option. Fundamentally it's reactive, not proactive. The best-case scenario is that you strip off some buffs and then can try to kill them, but it's just as likely that you could've gone for the kill originally or that they've buffed their CL enough to make dispelling unworkable, which is increasingly possible at this level.


It is a great combat spell, but that is it.

Having great combat options is important. Utility options are what set casters apart from non-casters, but you do actually need to be able to win fights.


4. Wall of Stone. I love this spell. However, there are good walks at lower levels. Also, it is primarily only useful in combat. Further, the effect is rather small unless you have CL boosters.

Nah, wall of stone is rad. It's both very strong in combat and quite useful outside it, because it lets you make permanent structures at no permanent cost.


Proceeding level-by-level is what I can manage for now.

You understand that we're going to have issues with your methodology in every single one of these threads because you did not bother to sit down and figure out explicitly what that methodology was going to be before starting, right?

[Anthrowhale]

I dropped Wall of Stone and Mass Suggestion in favor of Contact Other Plane since COP can really change the game in a powerful way. I also dropped True Seeing to ECL10, since it's easily available via Shapechange at later levels. I added Skin of the Steel Dragon at ECL20. I also dropped Control Winds in favor of Triptych at ECL20, since Triptych is affordable at high levels and there are good alternatives for broad destruction spells at ECL20.

I think we should rule out Draconic Polymorph. There are few levels between Polymorph and shapechange where this is particularly relevant. The Str+8 is of course great, but it's only a numbers bonus.

This leaves Dragonmark Demesne. This looks pretty handy, but perhaps not essential? Bladesong can daze things in melee reach pretty thoroughly. And Magnificent Mansion can give you a standard action retreat from attack which additionally proof against hurricanes and disintegrate. Maybe it's relevant as an ECL10 option? But what would we cut from the list? The Buried in Snow condition from Call Avalanche is a formidable DC25 Strength check to escape on your own.

[Anthrowhale]

The case for draconic polymorph is that it is one of the best spells at its level in the game, and this is supposed to be a list of the best spells in the game by level. This idea you have where this is somehow an exact script for what spells to pick up just doesn't make any sense. No one is considering, for instance, choosing between enhance wild shape and wings of flurry, because the former is a spell that does nothing if you are not a Druid and the latter is a spell that is unavailable to Druids.
We've dealt with this before so it's tempting to not argue again. I will note though that you pointed Dragonblood Spell-pact which makes this a real tradeoff.



Imagine, for the moment, you have decided that, based on the resources available to you as a 10th level character, you are going to have two Persistent buffs. Is polymorph + righteous might really better than divine power + draconic polymorph? I don't think so. The former means a smaller STR bonus, less HP and a worse BAB. In exchange, you get slightly better defenses, and are a size larger -- which isn't even clearly an upside, considering that you probably want to (draconic) polymorph into a form that is at least Large, meaning you quickly start hitting a size where you just can't get around the adventuring environment.

I believe Polymorph+(Persistent)Wraithstrike is generally better than both.



greater dispel magic is not really a top-tier option. Fundamentally it's reactive, not proactive. The best-case scenario is that you strip off some buffs and then can try to kill them, but it's just as likely that you could've gone for the kill originally or that they've buffed their CL enough to make dispelling unworkable, which is increasingly possible at this level.

Skipping anything past Arcane Turmoil until we hit Disjunction seems pretty rough to me. You may be right that in some situations everything you want to dispel has a to-high caster level, but I'm skeptical that in this case you could just ignore the spells and attack successfully. It's possible to make attacking _extremely_ difficult with spell-based defenses. (In some situations, it's also handy to be able to take down your own spells.)



Nah, wall of stone is rad. It's both very strong in combat and quite useful outside it, because it lets you make permanent structures at no permanent cost.

At the moment, I'm thinking of it as a minion spell. Lesser Spirit Binding can get an Earth Whisper (RoS, Level 10 Stone Shape at will and Wall of Stone 3/day) or a Galeb Duhr (MMII, Level 20 Animate objects, Shape Stone at will, 1/day Move earth, Wall of Stone, Transmute rock to mud). So, a great spell, part of the reason why we have several minions-with-SLAs spells on the list.



You understand that we're going to have issues with your methodology in every single one of these threads because you did not bother to sit down and figure out explicitly what that methodology was going to be before starting, right?
Yes, that's a hazard of not quite knowing what you are trying to do.

[RandomPeasant]

We've dealt with this before so it's tempting to not argue again. I will note though that you pointed Dragonblood Spell-pact which makes this a real tradeoff.

How? Are you planning to trade enhance wild shape for wings of flurry? Because I would not do that. I would instead give up antiplant shell or repel vermin, or any of the other various Druid spells that are simply not very good.


I believe Polymorph+(Persistent)Wraithstrike is generally better than both.

And draconic polymorph + wraithstrike is better than that! If you think there is some situation where you are losing out by upgrading from polymorph to draconic polymorph, what you need to do is explain which combination of polymorph + 5th level spell is better than draconic polymorph + 4th level spell. And even this is buying into your bizarre "it's the best list of spells to select, conditioned on having made all your prior selections from the list" framework, which is not, I think, a particularly tenable understanding of the list, given what has been placed on it and what has been excluded, nor a particularly artifact to produce.


Skipping anything past Arcane Turmoil until we hit Disjunction seems pretty rough to me.

Arguing that greater dispel magic is better than draconic polymorph seems pretty rough to me, and that is what one reasonably infers in reading a "top 10 spells" list that includes the former but not the latter.


It's possible to make attacking _extremely_ difficult with spell-based defenses.

The set of people who are going to do that, but are not going to boost their caster level to 21 and be immune to greater dispel magic, is the empty set.


At the moment, I'm thinking of it as a minion spell.

So are we just not going to have spells on the list starting at 6th level? Because at that point you can planar binding up an Efreet, and then (almost) everything becomes a "minion spell".


Yes, that's a hazard of not quite knowing what you are trying to do.

Then maybe you should take some time to figure out what you are trying to do before doing it!

[Anthrowhale]

Are you planning to trade enhance wild shape for wings of flurry?
There is no need at present.

Incidentally, I am still thinking about the fireball argument for L3 spells. War Spells provide another source of long range spells. The costs are high though --- can it be made to work as an option with an L3 spell?



Arguing that greater dispel magic is better than draconic polymorph seems pretty rough to me, and that is what one reasonably infers in reading a "top 10 spells" list that includes the former but not the latter.

The argument is that Polymorph + Greater Dispel Magic is weaker than Polymorph + Draconic Polymorph? That's the right kind of argument to make but I'm unsure of its correctness. Modestly better polymorph vs polymorph + ability to damage magical defenses might favor the latter.



The set of people who are going to do that, but are not going to boost their caster level to 21 and be immune to greater dispel magic, is the empty set.

I'm not sure of that. Suppose you have a dragon casting spells for defensive purposes. Obviously, they'd like to boost their caster level, but it may not be that straightforward. As an example, a Mature Adult Black Dragon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon) is CR 14 with caster level 5. That's not a great caster level with no obvious way to reach caster level 21, but it's enough to cast scintillating scales and avoid Ocular Shivering Touch.



So are we just not going to have spells on the list starting at 6th level? Because at that point you can planar binding up an Efreet, and then (almost) everything becomes a "minion spell".

Then maybe you should take some time to figure out what you are trying to do before doing it!
I plan to proceed for now. I've learned a fair bit and expect to continue to do so.

[Anthrowhale]

Added some comments:

Dragonblood Spell-pact. This spell has the amazing effect of swapping spells known with another spellcaster. The dragonblood requirement is easily met by polymorph, so a favored soul and a sorcerer (for example) could swap spells providing durable off-list access. This isn't a top-10 spell because because it requires XP sacrifice from both participants and the implied gp cost exceeds the 3k gp limit of routine spellcasting services at 2nd or 3rd level spells. There are already mechanisms like Anyspell for offlist access to L2 spells. Whether NPCs are willing or able to pay more is DM-dependent. PCs could of course do so directly, but typically parties are small providing limited opportunity.

Permanency. This can make several spells permanent. It's a convenient effect, but you have an increasing number of spells available by this level implying it's often possible to manage coverage with the spells in question as needed.

[remetagross]

How about Spell Matrix? With Sanctum Spell, you now have Quickened a 4th-level spell for the cost of a 4th-level slot + a 5th-level slot, instead of an 8th-level slot. Persistable.

[Anthrowhale]

How about Spell Matrix? With Sanctum Spell, you now have Quickened a 4th-level spell for the cost of a 4th-level slot + a 5th-level slot, instead of an 8th-level slot. Persistable.

It competes with Triptych and to some extent Celerity. Triptych allows you to get 3 spells from staffs out of standard action + swift action. It's expensive and not super-adaptable since you need to buy/make the staffs in advance, but these appear acceptable at higher levels. Celerity is somewhat complementary to Triptych since you could trigger it immediately after your turn. It's more adaptable than Lesser Spell Matrix since you can do any standard action, not just a spell. Between the two, i don't see Lesser Spell Matrix doing that much. The same applies to Spell Haven.

[RandomPeasant]

a favored soul and a sorcerer (for example) could swap spells providing durable off-list access.

They could, but it's not all that good for a Sorcerer (it's a bit better for a Favored Soul, but playing a Favored Soul to begin with is a bad idea, so it all washes out). The best spells on the Sorcerer/Wizard list are already on par with the best spells overall, so you don't really gain anything by swapping wall of stone for righteous might, especially because the XP cost makes it impractical to use repeatedly.


How about Spell Matrix? With Sanctum Spell, you now have Quickened a 4th-level spell for the cost of a 4th-level slot + a 5th-level slot, instead of an 8th-level slot. Persistable.

celerity gives you (effectively) a Quickened whatever-level spell for a 4th level slot, a that level slot, and no feats. I also don't think "4th level slot + 5th level slot -> Quickened 4th level spell" is particularly compelling at either 10th level (you'd likely rather have a 5th level spell) or 20th level (a 4th level spell is not that impactful, and you can do Persistent arcane spellsurge if you really care).


The argument is that Polymorph + Greater Dispel Magic is weaker than Polymorph + Draconic Polymorph?

No. But it's weaker than celerity + draconic polymorph, which is the relevant comparison.


but it's enough to cast scintillating scales and avoid Ocular Shivering Touch.

arcane fusion seems like a better solution here (though you do need Easy Metamagic or something). You pop out true strike and make up (almost) the entire difference, plus you've learned/prepared a spell that's useful if you happen a couple of colossal monstrous scorpions instead of the dragon.

[Anthrowhale]

They could, but it's not all that good for a Sorcerer (it's a bit better for a Favored Soul, but playing a Favored Soul to begin with is a bad idea, so it all washes out). The best spells on the Sorcerer/Wizard list are already on par with the best spells overall, so you don't really gain anything by swapping wall of stone for righteous might, especially because the XP cost makes it impractical to use repeatedly.

A Favored Soul has one very significant advantage over a Sorcerer: more spells known. And, although more of our top-10 spells are wizard than cleric, there have been a few top-10 cleric spells at every level. Hence, a Favored Soul with free access to Dragonblood Spell-pact and several Sorcerers could (for example) trade Surge of Fortune to each of several different sorcerers to pick up Triptych, Skin of the Steel Dragon, Unfettered Heroism, Lesser Planar Binding, and Contact Other Plane, in addition to keeping one Surge of Fortune for itself. That's two more spells known than the sorcerer gets.


No.

My conclusion as well.



But it's weaker than celerity + draconic polymorph, which is the relevant comparison.

I'm not following this. Polymorph is there, so ignoring it seems odd.



arcane fusion seems like a better solution here (though you do need Easy Metamagic or something). You pop out true strike and make up (almost) the entire difference, plus you've learned/prepared a spell that's useful if you happen a couple of colossal monstrous scorpions instead of the dragon.

Should True Strike be on the ECL20 list for level 1 spells? On the other hand Surge of Fortune provides at least an alternative.

In either case, what would you do if a strafing dragon has Friendly Fire or Ray Deflection up?

[RandomPeasant]

Hence, a Favored Soul with free access to Dragonblood Spell-pact and several Sorcerers could (for example) trade Surge of Fortune to each of several different sorcerers to pick up Triptych, Skin of the Steel Dragon, Unfettered Heroism, Lesser Planar Binding, and Contact Other Plane, in addition to keeping one Surge of Fortune for itself.

You could, but that would cost you 50k XP. If you've just hit 20th, that knocks you all the way back to 17th, and that's just for one level of spells. You certainly can find ways around the XP cost (Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell in combination with limited wish to emulate dragonblood spell-pact is the simplest, but not easily accessible for either class), but unless you're doing that the number of swaps you're making is quite limited, which will tend to favor the Sorcerer. And if you are cheating the XP cost, there is simply no reason to play either class rather than whichever fixed-list caster gets the most spells at each level (which I think may actually be the Warmage -- finally those redundant orbs are good for something).


I'm not following this. Polymorph is there, so ignoring it seems odd.

It's not ignoring it. It's making a different trade-off. You can either choose to prepare polymorph in a 4th level slot and greater dispel magic in a 5th level slot, or celerity in a 4th level slot and draconic polymorph in a 5th level slot. The question is which of those is more powerful, and I would submit that it is quite obviously the latter.

Now, it does get a bit more complicated if you have a very limited number of spells known, but to be honest I see that more as a reason not to play a Sorcerer or Favored Soul than one to make a different list for everyone else (and in that case, the construction of the list acquires some significant complications -- a 10th level Sorcerer cannot afford for their one 5th level spell to be something that has no use in combat). A Wizard can very easily afford to learn a spell at 7th level that they will stop casting at 9th level, because they learn quite a few spells for free and can cheaply learn more.


In either case, what would you do if a strafing dragon has Friendly Fire or Ray Deflection up?

What would you do if you happened to encounter a fire giant instead of a dragon? Or an eleven-headed hydra, or a colossal animated object, or a clay golem, or any of the other various CR 10 monsters which have no magic for you to dispel? Even against a couatl, which has a great deal of magic to its name, your greater dispel magic is unlikely to be much more than a counterspell. Whereas if you'd prepared flesh to ice, you're likely to take it out with a single action, and your spell is useful in many of the other situations, while a simple silent image handles quite a few of the others.

What it comes to, really, is that you can't just optimize for the worst case. Whatever spells you choose, there will be some pathological case that leaves you wishing you'd chosen other spells. At a certain point, you have to pick what has good value against the field, and maybe grab some bug-out options like teleport or contingency.

[Anthrowhale]

You could, but that would cost you 50k XP.
I think you are miscalculating? It's 100 xp/minimum caster level. Minimum caster level is 10. As a result, 1k xp/spell, or 5k xp for 5 5th level spells. It's not trivial, but plausibly acceptable for the beneift?



t's not ignoring it. It's making a different trade-off.

Ah, I see, that's not the tradeoff I'm making here. I'm assuming access to the top 10 spells of previous levels.



What would you do if you happened to encounter a fire giant instead of a dragon?

Ocular Shivering Touch.



Or an eleven-headed hydra, or a colossal animated object, or a clay golem

Magic Jar looks converts them into the solution to your next encounter as well, although you could use Plane Shift if you want a quick disposal.


or any of the other various CR 10 monsters which have no magic for you to dispel?

We do have options.


Even against a couatl, which has a great deal of magic to its name, your greater dispel magic is unlikely to be much more than a counterspell. Whereas if you'd prepared flesh to ice, you're likely to take it out with a single action, and your spell is useful in many of the other situations, while a simple silent image handles quite a few of the others.

Whether or not GDM is a good choice is highly dependent on the spells chosen by the Couatl. If it's a Couatl polymorphed into a grell with venomfire, fly, Freedom of Movement, and improved invisibility, you might indeed be tempted to GDM. For the more vanilla Grell in the MM, this is less clear. Flesh to Ice is an ok choice although the fort save (+8) is not actually that weak. Ironically, a lesser rod of maximize spell with a fireball is a save-or-lose for it.



What it comes to, really, is that you can't just optimize for the worst case. Whatever spells you choose, there will be some pathological case that leaves you wishing you'd chosen other spells. At a certain point, you have to pick what has good value against the field, and maybe grab some bug-out options like teleport or contingency.
I agree in general, but I think we can afford GDM.

[RandomPeasant]

I think you are miscalculating? It's 100 xp/minimum caster level. Minimum caster level is 10. As a result, 1k xp/spell, or 5k xp for 5 5th level spells. It's not trivial, but plausibly acceptable for the beneift?

Oh, yeah, I 10x'd it for some reason. Still, that's half the XP to get from 10th to 11th, and you only got to swap a few spells. The fundamental problem with dragonblood spell-pact for Favored Souls and Sorcerers is that you can just already pick very good spells. Like, sure, if as a 10th level Sorcerer you happen to believe that righteous might is better than every Wizard spell, you get an upgrade. But that upgrade is pretty tiny and it costs you 1,000 XP to get it. For the swapping to be good you need to be either a fixed-list caster (who have redundant and weak spells they can trade off) or have some way to ignore the XP cost (at which point you cast like a Spirit Shaman from whatever combination of spells your harem knows in total).


Ah, I see, that's not the tradeoff I'm making here. I'm assuming access to the top 10 spells of previous levels.

See I don't think that's actually a coherent framework. Forget, for the moment, class list incompatibility. Wild Shape + enhance wild shape competes for the same niche as polymorph (and particularly draconic polymorph, but frankly if you have a Druid that's your buff receptacle). More than that, it's clearly imaginable that there could be some Nth-level spell such that it changes the calculus of what N-1th level spells are good (I think you would agree, for instance, that if you 10x'd the stat buffs draconic polymorph offers, it would displace polymorph). Indeed, this is implicit in having separate 20th level lists, unless you think that those lists would all be the same for "CL 20, but Xth level actual casting" -- something I very much disagree with.

Of course, even all of that is pointless because celerity is on the 4th level list, so you can just prepare it instead of polymorph.


Ocular Shivering Touch.


Magic Jar looks converts them into the solution to your next encounter as well, although you could use Plane Shift if you want a quick disposal.

If you prepare Ocular shivering touch, magic jar, and plane shift as a Wizard (who is not a specialist, and has less than 28 INT), you have used up all your spell slots as a 10th level character. If you learn magic jar, you have used up all your 5th level spells known as a 10th level Sorcerer.


Whether or not GDM is a good choice is highly dependent on the spells chosen by the Couatl. If it's a Couatl polymorphed into a grell with venomfire, fly, Freedom of Movement, and improved invisibility, you might indeed be tempted to GDM.

Or just cast see invisibility and merc it with a SoD that targets Fort because none of those spells made its Fort save any better.


I agree in general, but I think we can afford GDM.

You get somewhere between 1 (Sorcerer spells known) and 6 (Focused Specialist + very high INT Wizard) spells at this level. You can maybe afford greater dispel magic at this level, but frankly there are a lot of combat spells I'm picking up first. Like, at least one for each save, and probably one that targets something other than a save, and maybe something for crowd-control. If you do all that, greater dispel magic is competing with "any 5th level defensive buff" and "any 5th level utility spell" and "maybe I did not build my character to max out the number of spells they get every day".

[Anthrowhale]

Oh, yeah, I 10x'd it for some reason. Still, that's half the XP to get from 10th to 11th, and you only got to swap a few spells. The fundamental problem with dragonblood spell-pact for Favored Souls and Sorcerers is that you can just already pick very good spells. Like, sure, if as a 10th level Sorcerer you happen to believe that righteous might is better than every Wizard spell, you get an upgrade. But that upgrade is pretty tiny and it costs you 1,000 XP to get it. For the swapping to be good you need to be either a fixed-list caster (who have redundant and weak spells they can trade off) or have some way to ignore the XP cost (at which point you cast like a Spirit Shaman from whatever combination of spells your harem knows in total).

Agreed, mostly (there's some benefit to swapping a few spells.).

The difficulty with a fixed-list caster is that weak spells don't make good trade items. The difficulty with avoiding the xp cost is that it's fairly tricky. The standard Dweomerkeeper doesn't apply to long casting spells. Uncanny Forethought could reduce the casting time, but that requires at least Wizard 1 while Dragonblood Spell-pact is a sorcerer-only spell. I don't see a good way to use it.



See I don't think that's actually a coherent framework. Forget, for the moment, class list incompatibility. Wild Shape + enhance wild shape competes for the same niche as polymorph (and particularly draconic polymorph, but frankly if you have a Druid that's your buff receptacle). More than that, it's clearly imaginable that there could be some Nth-level spell such that it changes the calculus of what N-1th level spells are good (I think you would agree, for instance, that if you 10x'd the stat buffs draconic polymorph offers, it would displace polymorph). Indeed, this is implicit in having separate 20th level lists, unless you think that those lists would all be the same for "CL 20, but Xth level actual casting" -- something I very much disagree with.

I do agree that level N spells can affect what's desirable at level N-1. My general plan here is to guess which spells will be at N when thinking about N-1 and then revisit N-1 later. W.r.t. Polymorph v Enhance Wild Shape, they do partially compete, but each offers potentially desirable strengths not available to the other, and hence I believe there is enough value for both. The same seems to be true of Lesser Spirit Binding and Lesser Planar Binding.


If you prepare Ocular shivering touch, magic jar, and plane shift as a Wizard (who is not a specialist, and has less than 28 INT), you have used up all your spell slots as a 10th level character. If you learn magic jar, you have used up all your 5th level spells known as a 10th level Sorcerer.

I expect you have a point that I'm not quite following. My point was just that there are other options for other challenges.


You get somewhere between 1 (Sorcerer spells known) and 6 (Focused Specialist + very high INT Wizard) spells at this level. You can maybe afford greater dispel magic at this level, but frankly there are a lot of combat spells I'm picking up first. Like, at least one for each save, and probably one that targets something other than a save, and maybe something for crowd-control. If you do all that, greater dispel magic is competing with "any 5th level defensive buff" and "any 5th level utility spell" and "maybe I did not build my character to max out the number of spells they get every day".
I think we have everything on your checklist except perhaps not as a 5th level spell. For example, the Fort save choice is Bloodfreeze Arrow. This one seems potentially more potent than Flesh to Ice since the ranger college could produce a few per day with a significantly elevated save DC.

[Gruftzwerg]

From my current PACMAN build showcase: (trying my luck here to draw some attention to the combo^^)

[Chained] Power Leech
(BoVD)

Preferably you cast 2 maximized twin Summon Monster X (the 1d4+1 variant) as sacrifice.
(20 summons total)

Power Leech drains from a foe 1 point from an ability score (your choice) per round for rounds/clvl and gives you the total drained value as an enchantment bonus to the same stat. It is already just by itself very strong, but totally escalates when chained (up to 21 targets).

Assuming your foes/sacrifices only have a base score of 10 in the targeted stat would already return a +200 enchantment bonus to the stat. An additional +100 modifier. No mater what your mainstat is, or even if you just pump it into STR, this will easily win you the game. The sole downside is that the buff duration can't be altered by metamagic and scales with 10min/clvl.

[Anthrowhale]

[Chained] Power Leech
(BoVD)

Chained Power Leech can clearly affect mutliple targets but it's less clear that the caster benefits from that due to the special wording around a single target within the spell.

Nevertheless, that seems unnecessary for consideration. A Rod of Extend spell + Power Leech could give a +20 enhancement bonus to any particular stat at ECL10 for 3 hours. Repeated castings could give bonuses to multiple stats if you can find the appropriate victims.

The use of Summon Monster for appropriate victims seems like a reasonable baseline, although you might get more mileage from just draining your (possibly polymorphed) self, casting restoration as necessary to alleviate the stat drain. Viewed this way, it's something like a stat doubler.

It's definitely potent, but the 5th level slots have become pretty tight. What should be dropped in favor of this?

[Gruftzwerg]

Chained Power Leech can clearly affect mutliple targets but it's less clear that the caster benefits from that due to the special wording around a single target within the spell.
Why it should be a problem that a single target spell talks about a single target in its effect?
Chain Spell clearly trumps the passages that refer to a single target.
And Power Leech says:


all points drained during this spell stack with each other to determine the enhancement bonus, but they don't stack with other castings of power leech or with other enhancement bonuses.
Chain Spell doesn't create separate casts. It's still a single power leech spell and thus all dmg done with it stack with each other.


Nevertheless, that seems unnecessary for consideration. A Rod of Extend spell + Power Leech could give a +20 enhancement bonus to any particular stat at ECL10 for 3 hours. Repeated castings could give bonuses to multiple stats if you can find the appropriate victims.
Multiple castings of Power Leech don't stack. It's explicitly called out and it doesn't care if you pick the same stat or another stat for each casting.



The use of Summon Monster for appropriate victims seems like a reasonable baseline, although you might get more mileage from just draining your (possibly polymorphed) self, casting restoration as necessary to alleviate the stat drain. Viewed this way, it's something like a stat doubler.
Good idea. Targeting yourself and healing it up seems like a good option if you lack the summons or the space for the summons.


It's definitely potent, but the 5th level slots have become pretty tight. What should be dropped in favor of this?

Owl's Insight imho. While it is pretty strong, it pales in comprehension to Power Leech imho. PL can buff/drain any stat, , gives a higher bonus, can be used offensively, has a longer duration...

[Anthrowhale]

And Power Leech says:

You left out "In other words" which is meaningful here, as it's meant to be a clarifying statement rather than a rules statement. The rules statement is:

The other creature takes 1 point of drain from an ability score of the caster's choosing, and the caster gains a +1 enhancement bonus to the same ability score per point drained during the casting of this spell.
In the context of chain spell, the "other creature" is presumably the primary target. Whether or not a DM would allow that to be overwritten to all targets by chain spell seems controversial. I would expect 'no' typically since it's not explicitly handled by chain spell and clearly unbalanced.


Multiple castings of Power Leech don't stack. It's explicitly called out and it doesn't care if you pick the same stat or another stat for each casting.

"Eh". Again, that passage starts with "In other words" which means it should be elidable. The stuff about nonstacking seems like an attempt to restate the stacking rules. I could see a DM taking it the other way though, so this is the conservative interpretation.


Good idea. Targeting yourself and healing it up seems like a good option if you lack the summons or the space for the summons.

It's more than that---any stat you care about (= want to enhance) will already be pretty good, plausibly better than what a summons has.



Owl's Insight imho. While it is pretty strong, it pales in comprehension to Power Leech imho. PL can buff/drain any stat, , gives a higher bonus, can be used offensively, has a longer duration...
I'm not disputing the others, but offensive use sounds fairly ridiculous. Maybe there's some value in draining a mental stat to 0 as a capture methodology?

Dropping Owl's Insight seems undesirable as it's potentially cumulative. Dropping it substantially decreases the maximum value of Wisdom achievable.

I'm actually thinking of Fabricate at the moment. It's an occasional use spell and Greater Anyspell is almost surely on the list at level 6 anyways providing access.

[Gruftzwerg]

In the context of chain spell, the "other creature" is presumably the primary target. Whether or not a DM would allow that to be overwritten to all targets by chain spell seems controversial. I would expect 'no' typically since it's not explicitly handled by chain spell and clearly unbalanced.
1. I don't see any difference to Charm, Dominate Person, Finger of Death and the like. In all cases the original rule text uses singular and you have to read it in plural when using Chain Spell.

2. If you argue that "other creature" ain't the target of the spell, when and how do you pick and chose your target? Such an interpretation would be totally dysfunctional. You have to assume that "other creature" is your "target" to have a functional spell in the first place. So unless you wanna make the original spell dysfunctional, I would suggest to treat it like all the other spells that don't repeat 100% exactly what stands in the target line in their effect text (when using Chain Spell).



"Eh". Again, that passage starts with "In other words" which means it should be elidable. The stuff about nonstacking seems like an attempt to restate the stacking rules. I could see a DM taking it the other way though, so this is the conservative interpretation.
Doesn't change the general rules that you can't stack the same spell unless it explicitly allows it. If no specific exception is called out, only the last instance can affect you.

Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
Power Leech doesn't have an exception to trump this rule.




I'm not disputing the others, but offensive use sounds fairly ridiculous. Maybe there's some value in draining a mental stat to 0 as a capture methodology?

Dropping Owl's Insight seems undesirable as it's potentially cumulative. Dropping it substantially decreases the maximum value of Wisdom achievable.
Can you cast Owl's Insight as an offensive spell? No. That's the difference I am pointing out. Sure, Power Leech is a very niche offensive spell (draining to 0. maybe more interesting in a build that focuses on ability damage), but the fact that it can be used offensive makes it more flexible in its application.
Imho in all mentioned cases Power Leech is superior.

Owl's Insight is also not stackable with itself. While the insight bonus is normally superior to an enchantment bonus, PL gives such high values (even in the most basic scenario) that it will easily beat OI.
At ECL 10 you get +5 insight bonus, but already can get up to +10 enchantment bonus. Unless you already have a +6 enchantment bonus items, PL will always have the better results. And the difference only keeps getting bigger since OI scales with 1/2 clvl while PL scales with full clvl.


I'm actually thinking of Fabricate at the moment. It's an occasional use spell and Greater Anyspell is almost surely on the list at level 6 anyways providing access.
Imho OI gets totally overshadowed by PL. The sole minor problem is that it is a corrupted spell (you need to be evil to get it on any caster). But that can also be seen as a bonus (since you can get it on all casting classes).

PL does something similar to OI but better.
Fabricate on the other hand is a very flexible tool and should be on the list imho.

[Anthrowhale]

Owl's Insight is also not stackable with itself.
That's not the assertion.

Suppose we are ECL20 with a caster level of 48 (as is achievable with spells alone). If your wisdom is 36(=20 (base)+5(inherent)+5(levels)+6(enhancement)) and you cast Owl's Insight, it grows to 60. If you then cast extended Power Leech on yourself and have a friend standing by to cast restoration when you start drooling, you pick up a +60 enhancement bonus for 16 hours. That means you'll have a wisdom of 114(=20(base)+5(inherent)+5(levels)+60(enhancement )+24(insight)) while Owl's Insight lasts and "merely" 90(=20(base)+5(inherent)+5(levels)+60(enhancement) ) for the rest of the day.

On the other hand, with the same setup but no Owl's Insight, you'll get a +36 enhancement bonus implying the modified wisdom will be 66(=20(base)+5(inherent)+5(levels)+36(enhancement) ).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A separate comment:

Telekinesis. This is a good utility and combat spell. The violent thrust maneuver in particular has quite a bit of potential. Nevertheless it's limited by the 15 attacks happening on the same target. For example, using a Bloodfreeze arrow with a heavily increased save DC, a single Bloodfreeze arrow is all that you need. Altogether, this makes TK substantially worse than your ranger ally.

[Fero]

A separate comment:

Telekinesis. This is a good utility and combat spell. The violent thrust maneuver in particular has quite a bit of potential. Nevertheless it's limited by the 15 attacks happening on the same target. For example, using a Bloodfreeze arrow with a heavily increased save DC, a single Bloodfreeze arrow is all that you need. Altogether, this makes TK substantially worse than your ranger ally.

What if the target is immune to paralysis? TK has three big advantages over other combat spells. First, it is versatile. By preparing different packages of launch materials you can respond to any number of situations. For example, a TK launching 15 holy waters is much better against undead than a DC 1,000 bloodfreeze arrow. Second, it is a darn hood non combat utility spell in its own right. Bloodfreeze arrow cannot help you move a treasure, save a friend from. Falling, or do the many other things TK can do. Third, TK is scaleable. For example, you can launch 15 voidstones or 15 fireball delicate disks.

[Anthrowhale]

What if the target is immune to paralysis? TK has three big advantages over other combat spells. First, it is versatile. By preparing different packages of launch materials you can respond to any number of situations. For example, a TK launching 15 holy waters is much better against undead than a DC 1,000 bloodfreeze arrow. Second, it is a darn hood non combat utility spell in its own right. Bloodfreeze arrow cannot help you move a treasure, save a friend from. Falling, or do the many other things TK can do. Third, TK is scaleable. For example, you can launch 15 voidstones or 15 fireball delicate disks.

I'm half-convinced, but what to drop?

[RandomPeasant]

The difficulty with a fixed-list caster is that weak spells don't make good trade items.

Eh. Trading is ultimately going to be DM fiat anyway, plus the Beguiler has some stuff for getting people to take bad deals (like glibness and Diplomacy).


The standard Dweomerkeeper doesn't apply to long casting spells.

This is why every Dweomerkeeper also picks the Spell domain (besides it filling your arcane casting requirement): if you limited wish for dragonblood spell-pact, the spell you're actually casting qualifies for Supernatural Spell.


W.r.t. Polymorph v Enhance Wild Shape, they do partially compete, but each offers potentially desirable strengths not available to the other

Yes, one of them is available to Druids and one of them is available to people who are not Druids. Creating a totally unified list just doesn't make sense, particularly when you insisted on not counting Trapsmith or other early-access spells (except lesser planar binding for some reason, sort of).


I expect you have a point that I'm not quite following. My point was just that there are other options for other challenges.

My point is that you have a finite number of options. If the only circumstance you are preparing greater dispel magic is when you know you will need it, it is not a top-ten combat spell, because there are combat spells you prepare into unknown opposition and when they are specifically good. The median outcome of greater dispel magic is that you might be able to negate one action from an enemy. The median outcome of a SoD is that one enemy has a 50% or better chance of dropping out of the fight.


For example, the Fort save choice is Bloodfreeze Arrow.

bloodfreeze arrow is not an alternative to having an offensive spell that targets Fort, it's a downtime party synergy spell. You have to prepare some actual spells on the days you are actually adventuring, because a spell list full of bloodfreeze arrows and contact other planes is not going to do anything when confronted with an Owlbear. So your 4th level Fort-targeting spell is finger of agony or boiling blood, because you will ever consider casting those spells in combat. And, yes, you might sometimes choose to upgrade your Will-targeting offensive spell to magic jar or your AoE effect to cloudkill or your BFC to wall of stone (or pick up overland flight as an adventuring-day buff). But under no circumstances are you picking up greater dispel magic first, let alone before draconic polymorph.


I'm half-convinced, but what to drop?

greater dispel magic. Like, I don't even really think telekinesis belongs on the list, but it's miles ahead of greater dispel magic.

[Anthrowhale]

This is why every Dweomerkeeper also picks the Spell domain (besides it filling your arcane casting requirement): if you limited wish for dragonblood spell-pact, the spell you're actually casting qualifies for Supernatural Spell.

That works.



Yes, one of them is available to Druids and one of them is available to people who are not Druids.

I was actually thinking of "one of them grants an extra action/round while the other gives super attack forms".

It's possible to get polymorph available to a druid, but even if you did you might use it only part of the time because in some situations the extra action/round is more desirable.



If the only circumstance you are preparing greater dispel magic is when you know you will need it, it is not a top-ten combat spell, because there are combat spells you prepare into unknown opposition and when they are specifically good.

I'm unconvinced. Preparing a GDM seems fairly reasonable in the face of the unknown to me. It seems unlikely that most casters you run into at ECL10 (or even a few levels after that) will jack their caster level up into dispel-doesn't-work range. It may happen at some tables, but plausibly not at many others. I'm also not convinced that there are good alternatives. Rod[Chain] GDM can shutdown all precast spells and items on a handful of badguys, seriously breaching their defenses. I generally agree that GDM is more of a PvP option than a PvM option, but some of the more challenging options have a PvP flavor where the DM creates NPC parties.

Perhaps one element of my thinking is that casting GDM is a _free_ action when used for counterspelling under Battlemagic Perception. There aren't many free action spells available and the disruption effect on enemy plans could be considerable.



greater dispel magic. Like, I don't even really think telekinesis belongs on the list, but it's miles ahead of greater dispel magic.
You are certainly clear in your preferences :-)

[Gruftzwerg]

That's not the assertion.

Suppose we are ECL20 with a caster level of 48 (as is achievable with spells alone). If your wisdom is 36(=20 (base)+5(inherent)+5(levels)+6(enhancement)) and you cast Owl's Insight, it grows to 60. If you then cast extended Power Leech on yourself and have a friend standing by to cast restoration when you start drooling, you pick up a +60 enhancement bonus for 16 hours. That means you'll have a wisdom of 114(=20(base)+5(inherent)+5(levels)+60(enhancement )+24(insight)) while Owl's Insight lasts and "merely" 90(=20(base)+5(inherent)+5(levels)+60(enhancement) ) for the rest of the day.

On the other hand, with the same setup but no Owl's Insight, you'll get a +36 enhancement bonus implying the modified wisdom will be 66(=20(base)+5(inherent)+5(levels)+36(enhancement) ).

1. Pls show me how a druid 20 can get up to clvl 48 with spells alone. I doubt that somehow.

2. And if we talk about late/endgame combos, Chained Power Leech can easily return values over 200+ (10+ target's base stat before leeching).

3. You are comparing a druid only spell/combo to a spell that is accessible for all evil casters. OI is much more niche in its use and play than PL.

No matter how I look, OI gets the short end of the stick.

[Anthrowhale]

FYI, I dropped Fabricate for Power Leech. This seems ok---you can live without Fabricate for a couple levels.


1. Pls show me how a druid 20 can get up to clvl 48 with spells alone. I doubt that somehow.
Spontaneous Druid Dragonblood Spell-pacts Suffer the Flesh, Consumptive Field, and Greater Consumptive Field then picks up the Wormbound feat for Mindworms. Druid 20 casts Mindworms[Persistent] Suffer the Flesh (->CL25), Mindworms[Persistent] Consumptive Field (->CL37), and Mindworms[Persistent] Greater Consumptive Field (->CL 49).

[Chronos]

I certainly don't think that the developers intended the effects of Chained Power Leech, but I have to agree with Gruftzwerg here: By the rules, it gives you a bonus of +yes to the stat of your choice. It's evil, it requires some setup, and the duration is relatively short (i.e., it's very difficult to get it to last all day), but if you're going for Pure Power, it's definitely something you'd be looking for.

It also pairs well thematically with Consumptive Field, although there is the issue that you'd want to cast the CL-boosting one first, and that means those sacrificial mooks are no longer available for stat-draining. Unless you just have a really huge number of sacrificial mooks, so you don't have to care about wasting them.

[ConanPray]

Thanks for the clarification

[Gruftzwerg]

Spontaneous Druid Dragonblood Spell-pacts Suffer the Flesh, Consumptive Field, and Greater Consumptive Field then picks up the Wormbound feat for Mindworms. Druid 20 casts Mindworms[Persistent] Suffer the Flesh (->CL25), Mindworms[Persistent] Consumptive Field (->CL37), and Mindworms[Persistent] Greater Consumptive Field (->CL 49).

Thx for providing the details.

But I see some problems there:

1. (Greater) Consumptive Field is a Cleric spell. Hard to get on a Druid (who also can't Wish for it..).

2. Greater Consumptive Field doesn't stack with Consumptive Field because:


This spell functions like consumptive field, except that ..
To function like Consumptive Field ain't beneficial here. Because to if it is able to stack or not is part of how it functions. And since multiple castings of CF don't stack, it also can't stack with GCF.

3. I didn't know Mindworms and it seems to be from Dragon Magazine. It requires "Level: Kyuss 4" dunno what that is and how a druid qualifies for it.

4. Suffer the Flesh is a Sorc/Wiz spell. How is a druid gonna persist it?

Sure, you could maybe tailor a build where a druid (or any other class) somehow gets access to those spells. But than again you could do the same for Power Leech. Neither of these tricks is exclusive for Owl's Insight.

[Anthrowhale]

I certainly don't think that the developers intended the effects of Chained Power Leech, but I have to agree with Gruftzwerg here: By the rules, it gives you a bonus of +yes to the stat of your choice.
Noted. It seems a bit academic here since it deserves to be in the top-10 whether or not that's correct.



1. (Greater) Consumptive Field is a Cleric spell. Hard to get on a Druid (who also can't Wish for it..).

Look up what Dragonblood Spell-pact does---it's in Dragons of Faerun.


2. Greater Consumptive Field doesn't stack with Consumptive Field because:

I expect we'll just disagree here. In my view, it's a different a spell and hence the stacking rules for different spells should come into play.


3. I didn't know Mindworms and it seems to be from Dragon Magazine. It requires "Level: Kyuss 4" dunno what that is and how a druid qualifies for it.

That means it's a 4th level spell for anyone taking the Wormbound feat.



4. Suffer the Flesh is a Sorc/Wiz spell. How is a druid gonna persist it?

Mindworms was my suggestion. You could go Spelldancer instead, if desired.

[RandomPeasant]

I was actually thinking of "one of them grants an extra action/round while the other gives super attack forms".

Wild Shape also grants super attack forms. Especially in combination with the rest of the Druid's list.


Preparing a GDM seems fairly reasonable in the face of the unknown to me.

greater dispel magic is literally useless against something like half the core CR 10 monsters. That is an extremely bad spell to prepare blind, especially because the upside against most of the ones where it does anything is pretty marginal. You certainly could dispel one of the noble salamander's walls of fire, but that hardly seems like a compelling use of your 5th level slot.


It seems unlikely that most casters you run into at ECL10 (or even a few levels after that) will jack their caster level up into dispel-doesn't-work range.

Sure. But also most of them aren't going to have a laundry-list of buffs you need to remove before you can do anything to them. If an enemy Wizard has overland flight and the four elemental heart spells up (already a fairly extensive list of buffs), you can just hit them with baleful polymorph or something.


some of the more challenging options have a PvP flavor where the DM creates NPC parties.

That's very table-dependent. Certainly your DM could make things harder for you by having you fight some classed NPCs. But also they could make things harder by having you fight a higher-CR creature like an Iron Golem, against which dispelling is equally useless. Or maybe the big dragon you're fighting went with wraithstrike rather than scintillating scales and somebody gets mulched by an effect that's gone before it gets round to your chance to use a dispel.


Perhaps one element of my thinking is that casting GDM is a _free_ action when used for counterspelling under Battlemagic Perception. There aren't many free action spells available and the disruption effect on enemy plans could be considerable.

The effect is that you spent a 5th level spell slot and a 3rd level slot to negate at most one enemy action. Is that very good action economy? Sure. Is that comparable to the spells you can cast that just kill people? Not even close.


Suffer the Flesh is a Sorc/Wiz spell. How is a druid gonna persist it?

Persistomancy (that cares about these things at all) cares about the type you cast the spell as, not the list it comes from. So if you shuffle suffer the flesh over into your Druid spells known, it casts as divine and you can persist it with DMM (powered by that Druid variant that gets turning).

[Anthrowhale]

I'm still looking for further comments on telekinesis and what to drop in favor it.


Wild Shape also grants super attack forms. Especially in combination with the rest of the Druid's list.
The venomfire Grell certainly qualifies for damage output. However the strength bonus is 'meh'. Is there a good equivalent to War Troll or Kelvezu?



greater dispel magic is literally useless against something like half the core CR 10 monsters.

So, for the other half you can potentially use a free action to cancel out an adversary's standard action.



Or maybe the big dragon you're fighting went with wraithstrike rather than scintillating scales and somebody gets mulched by an effect that's gone before it gets round to your chance to use a dispel.

Or maybe you free-action counterspell the Wraithstrike and prevent a mulching.


The effect is that you spent a 5th level spell slot and a 3rd level slot to negate at most one enemy action. Is that very good action economy? Sure. Is that comparable to the spells you can cast that just kill people? Not even close.

You are very offense oriented. In my experience, being able to prevent a spell that "just kills people" from killing party members is fairly worthwhile. Being able to do this as a free action means it has no cost except spell slots to your offense.



So if you shuffle suffer the flesh over into your Druid spells known, it casts as divine and you can persist it with DMM (powered by that Druid variant that gets turning).
Also, you could just persist it the hard way. StF is decent as an 8th level effect.

[Fero]

A few arguments against True Seeing:

1- The material component is expensive enough that you probably don't want to spam it.

2- The duration isn't very long.

3- You can partially mimic the effect with Blindsight, scent, etc.

4- There are probably better ways to get it than to cast the spell. I suspect many summons have it. If you are willing to spend a feat, the Improved Familiar, the Beguiler, has a constant true sight effect.

[Anthrowhale]

A few arguments against True Seeing:
Interesting.

Another trick is using spellcraft DC 20+Spell level "Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect."

But what about amongst the ECL20 list? TK seems to have similar utility at ECL20.

[Fero]

Interesting.

Another trick is using spellcraft DC 20+Spell level "Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect."

But what about amongst the ECL20 list? TK seems to have similar utility at ECL20.

Possibly Owl's Insight? It is amazing but Power Leech provides a similar, but higher, bonus.

Contact Other Plane is tricky in thar the amount that of information it yields will always be limited by how much the DM is willing to give away.

I never really understood the status of Unfettered Heroism in most games. Action Points are an alternative rule system not used in most campaigns other than Eberron. Does Unfettered Heroism inject action points into a game that does not already have them? If so, are players still able to learn the feats, etc. that maximize the utility of action points?

[RandomPeasant]

The venomfire Grell certainly qualifies for damage output. However the strength bonus is 'meh'. Is there a good equivalent to War Troll or Kelvezu?

Bear in mind that Wild Shape doesn't cost a spell slot and naturally has hours/level duration. So the Druid is going to be able to layer some more buffs to make up whatever gap may exist at the same overall resource expenditure.



Or maybe you free-action counterspell the Wraithstrike and prevent a mulching.

That exchange seems incredibly favorable for the dragon. You lost a 5th level slot and a 3rd level slot. It lost a 2nd level slot and a swift action, meaning it can do the same thing next round (plus it's not like its regular full attack isn't dangerous, especially to the squishier party members). You're better off spending those resources on arcane fusion-ing out a Reach/Ocular shivering touch.


You are very offense oriented. In my experience, being able to prevent a spell that "just kills people" from killing party members is fairly worthwhile. Being able to do this as a free action means it has no cost except spell slots to your offense.

Except it doesn't just cost spell slots. If you, as a Sorcerer, learn greater dispel magic, you have no offensive 5th level spells at 10th level. And the spell slot cost is not exactly cheap. As a 9th level Wizard, preparing greater dispel magic is somewhere between a half and a quarter of your top-level slots (though, yes, correspondingly less at 10th level). That's a big chunk of resources to put on "maybe I run into something where I need dispelling". If you want a quick-reaction way to protect your friends, try preparing celerity in a 4th level slot and wall of stone as your 5th level spell. Immediate-action walls are pretty good defensively, and the parts are much better individually.

I will say that greater dispel magic (like, in my view, summon monster IV) suffers greatly from how you are constructing this list. I would actually say that putting a 5th level slot on greater dispel magic as a 13th level Wizard is somewhat reasonable, as you're not giving up any of your top-level spells, so it's trading off with, like, "do I really need a second teleport on every adventuring day" rather than "would I like to be able to target multiple different saves with my top-level slots" (by 20th level, antimagic field and disjunction beat it out handily).

Of course, it's also only on the 5th level list to begin with for reasons that don't really make sense. It's a 5th level spell for Bards (who cannot cast it at 10th level) and Dread Necromancers (who do not meaningfully select spells known), so it's not really clear who it's on a 5th level list for. Certainly there will be times when a 10th level Dread Necromancer wants to cast it, but outside some situation with dragonblood spell-pact (which seems unlikely, there are probably a half-dozen spells you'd trade first), there will be no situations where a 10th level Dread Necromancer can't cast it.


There are probably better ways to get it than to cast the spell. I suspect many summons have it. If you are willing to spend a feat, the Improved Familiar, the Beguiler, has a constant true sight effect.

true seeing on yourself seems significantly better than true seeing on an ally.


I never really understood the status of Unfettered Heroism in most games. Action Points are an alternative rule system not used in most campaigns other than Eberron. Does Unfettered Heroism inject action points into a game that does not already have them? If so, are players still able to learn the feats, etc. that maximize the utility of action points?

Yeah, as I said initially, I think its too setting-specific. And even in Eberron, I'm not really sure its great unless you go Primal Scholar, as it only grants one AP/round and (unless you think it stacks with itself), that's not enough to fully fuel Action Surge. It's the difference between Incantatrix (which can do its trick in any campaign) and Hathran (which is weakened substantially if your DM is very literal about the "boundaries of Rashemen").

[Anthrowhale]

I decided to swap down Owl's Insight for Telekinesis on the ECL20 list.


Possibly Owl's Insight? It is amazing but Power Leech provides a similar, but higher, bonus.
It's cumulative though, so the argument should be something other than merely similar effect.

One argument could be "Power Leech is enough". It looks like the maximum minimum save of CR 20 monsters is about 20 suggesting DC 39 +alternate save options might be adequate. .... this seems convincing.



Contact Other Plane is tricky in thar the amount that of information it yields will always be limited by how much the DM is willing to give away.

If you contact a greater deity within its portfolio, it seems hard for the DM to answer with "unknown".



I never really understood the status of Unfettered Heroism in most games. Action Points are an alternative rule system not used in most campaigns other than Eberron. Does Unfettered Heroism inject action points into a game that does not already have them? If so, are players still able to learn the feats, etc. that maximize the utility of action points?
I was assuming "yes" for this exercise and ymmv in practice.


Bear in mind that Wild Shape doesn't cost a spell slot and naturally has hours/level duration. So the Druid is going to be able to layer some more buffs to make up whatever gap may exist at the same overall resource expenditure.

The polymorpher can do similar, yes? I'm not really seeing the asymmetry. Worse case, they need to reinvoke Polymorph, so this is really about the duration of Polymorph vs. the duration of Enhance Wild Shape.



That exchange seems incredibly favorable for the dragon. You lost a 5th level slot and a 3rd level slot. It lost a 2nd level slot and a swift action, meaning it can do the same thing next round (plus it's not like its regular full attack isn't dangerous, especially to the squishier party members). You're better off spending those resources on arcane fusion-ing out a Reach/Ocular shivering touch.

If Unfettered Heroism works, then we may not care about L5- spells.



greater dispel magic

Your position is clear. It's just not convincing yet.



there will be no situations where a 10th level Dread Necromancer can't cast it.

I'm not concerned with this here.



And even in Eberron, I'm not really sure its great unless you go Primal Scholar...
Charge free use of a staff seems at least decent. Theoretically, you could persist Unfettered Heroism and then use Wand Surge off one of a selection of cheap Staffs with a single charge each all day long.

[Gruftzwerg]

Surrus of the City (Urban Druid) should be on the ECL 10 list:

You may ask one question per round. Each question must be one that can be answered in no more than one word, and the knowledge imparted by the susurrus of the city must be knowledge that is known to at least one person who is currently located in the city.

A very powerful plot solving tool in urban environments!

Get rid of True Sight on the ECL 10 list. It's duration is to low and as others have mentioned it's effect can be replicated by other spells. TS by itself (without persisting it) ain't worth it.

Edit: And imho the best part compared to similar spells is:

This spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The susurrus of the city has no agenda of its own, and does not try to deceive or trick the caster. In cases where there are multiple answers to a question, the spell provides the one that is the most pertinent to the caster.

[remetagross]

Ooooh this one is really good, Gruftzwerg. Plane Shift to Sigil and voilà, you know have access to all the knowledge of the multiverse.

[Anthrowhale]

Surrus of the City (Urban Druid) should be on the ECL 10 list:
The obvious comparator is Contact Other Plane. What relevant info is available here but not there?


Get rid of True Sight on the ECL 10 list. It's duration is to low and as others have mentioned it's effect can be replicated by other spells. TS by itself (without persisting it) ain't worth it.


The difficulty here is that giving up on True Seeing is something like giving up on every spell with a target line in a fraction of encounters.

[Gruftzwerg]

The obvious comparator is Contact Other Plane. What relevant info is available here but not there?
The difference is the reliability here. CoP demands a successful roll, SotC does not. You can only get up to 88% chance to get a true answer. This makes it far less reliable since you can't even be sure if the answer you get is correct.

As said, SotC gives always true/reliable answers as soon as someone knows the answer. To prevent SotC there may be no living eye witnesses and the one causing the incident needs to leave the city immediately. It's very powerful under normal circumstances in an urban environment. It will kill most subplots and give you any relevant information for your success.
"Did the bartender kill his guest?"
or
"Was the thief male?"
"Was the thief bigger than 6 feet?"
"What is the first name of the thief?"
"Did the thief steal it for himself?"
"What is the first name of is contact?"
or
"Is there a spy in the city?"
or
"Is anyone planning to sabotage the event?"
...

It does all the hard work of gathering information and will reveal stuff which you would never get via gather information. It's totally broken.




The difficulty here is that giving up on True Seeing is something like giving up on every spell with a target line in a fraction of encounters.
Glitterdust is lvl 2 and does the same job in most situations. TS is nice to have if you get it for free or can persist it. But outside from that, its not worth the spell slot imho.

[Anthrowhale]

The difference is the reliability here. CoP demands a successful roll, SotC does not. You can only get up to 88% chance to get a true answer. This makes it far less reliable since you can't even be sure if the answer you get is correct.
This doesn't concern me much because error correction off of 88% is easy. The trivial version of this is asking the same question twice, causing the error rate to fall to 1.4%. You can do much better if you delve into (say) reed-solomon codes. Even a checksum strategy ("Were the last 3 questions answered correctly?") could be fairly effective.



"Did the bartender kill his guest?"
"Was the thief male?"
"Was the thief bigger than 6 feet?"
"What is the first name of the thief?"
"Did the thief steal it for himself?"
"What is the first name of is contact?"
or
"Is there a spy in the city?"
or
"Is anyone planning to sabotage the event?"

These all seem like questions we could ask an appropriate greater deity.

The reason to prefer COP to SotC is that it's more general. SotC nails urban environments. COP nails all environments. SotC allows you to ask twice as many questions with zero error chance, which seems nice but perhaps not essential to it's utility since you could just cast COP more.



Glitterdust is lvl 2 and does the same job in most situations. TS is nice to have if you get it for free or can persist it. But outside from that, its not worth the spell slot imho.

Glitterdust is good for penetrating invisibility, but how do you penetrate illusory cover?

[Chronos]

I think that it's fair to assume that, if an Entity lies to you once, it's going to lie to you again if asked the same question repeatedly (or meta-questions like "were any of the last three answers lies?").

Susurrus of the City is also more explicit about the breadth of answers it can provide (any question with a one-word answer), as opposed to Contact Other Planes' "yes, no, or the like". And the Entities contacted via Contact Other Plane explicitly have their own agenda, which could lead to things like answers that are true but intentionally misleading.

[Anthrowhale]

if an Entity lies to you once, it's going to lie to you again if asked the same question repeatedly
This could be true by RAW.

(or meta-questions like "were any of the last three answers lies?").
This can't be true by RAW. Every unique question must have a fresh roll or the entire notion of a percentage chance of things is invalid.


Susurrus of the City is also more explicit about the breadth of answers it can provide (any question with a one-word answer), as opposed to Contact Other Planes' "yes, no, or the like".

Footnote 2 says "You get a true, one-word answer." which seems nigh identical with SotC.


And the Entities contacted via Contact Other Plane explicitly have their own agenda, which could lead to things like answers that are true but intentionally misleading.
This seems possible, but it's not clear to me this is significant. Figuring out the ways that you could be mislead by a true one-word answer seems a not-impossible task.

[Gruftzwerg]

This doesn't concern me much because error correction off of 88% is easy. The trivial version of this is asking the same question twice, causing the error rate to fall to 1.4%. You can do much better if you delve into (say) reed-solomon codes. Even a checksum strategy ("Were the last 3 questions answered correctly?") could be fairly effective.
You already only have halve the questions compared to SotC and you need to waste em to confirm your questions. And you need to confirm that the Confirmation question did give you the correct answer and didn't lie to you. So you would need 3 confirmation questions to not end with a 50/50 situation. But a checksum would only confirm if all previous answers are true but not which answers are true and which have been lies.
To be really on the safe side, you would need to ask every single question 3 times. But all that doesn't help if the deity has an agenda regarding that topic.(more on this further below)
If you can't see that this makes SotC superior in efficiency & reliability I dunno. Imho point for SotC here.



These all seem like questions we could ask an appropriate greater deity.

The reason to prefer COP to SotC is that it's more general. SotC nails urban environments. COP nails all environments. SotC allows you to ask twice as many questions with zero error chance, which seems nice but perhaps not essential to it's utility since you could just cast COP more.

Sure that is a point for COP, but imho a very lil one. Because most problems to solve (with these kind of spells) happen to be in an urban environments imho.




Glitterdust is good for penetrating invisibility, but how do you penetrate illusory cover?
As said, unless you persist TS it ain't a big help. Either you are in combat and don't wanna waste your turn on it or you are out of combat and can use time and brains to deal with the illusion.
Finally if you don't have TS persisted, the chance on passing an illusions (e.g. Illusionary Wall) without noticing it are the same. Imho TS remains a niche spell at ECL 10 for most builds.


This could be true by RAW.

This can't be true by RAW. Every unique question must have a fresh roll or the entire notion of a percentage chance of things is invalid.
While you had replied to Chronos, I would like to reply on this (as said above).

Have a look here:

Once the Outer Planes are reached, the power of the deity contacted determines the effects. (Random results obtained from the table are subject to the personalities of individual deities.)

Personal Agenda > your percentage roll

It doesn't matter how good you roll or how often you ask confirmation questions. If the entity lies once to you regarding a topic/question because of a personal agenda, he will lie about all related questions. Just like you would expect from someone who is intentionally lying in real life. And since you don't know who is replying to your questions, you have no clue about its personality and ambitions. This gives the DM an at will "get outta jail"-card. If the DM doesn't want to give you the true answer he doesn't have to simply said...

Compare that to SotC that has no personal agenda!

_____________________
_____________________


I also would like to add that CoP also requires an INT check (which could be problematic if you are a Sorc) that increases with the planes and deities. And remind you that you can't take 10 since you are casting a spell and have to "Concentrate" (duration) on it. You are distracted and thus can't take 10.
If you fail the DC 16 INT check (!) for a greater deity, your INT and CHA are reduced to 8 for 5 weeks(!!!) and the spell automatically fails! Good luck trying to get a +15 modifier (INT: 40!) to always pass the roll.

At ECL 10 a wizard with a base INT of 20 (+2 race) and +2 ability score adjustment from lvl has 22 INT = +6 modifier. If he wants to safely cast CoD without downsides he can only contact the elemental plane...
And anyone without a high enough INT score shouldn't really be casting this spell. It's basically an arcane suicide for weeks.

CoP is crap against SotC. The sole upside is that it doesn't rely on the city/building. Otherwise its totally unreliable garbage imho. Unless you totally optimize for INT. But that ain't gonna happen on ECL 10. And even if you totally optimize for it at higher levels, it still remains not reliable due to the deities personality.

To sum it up. If you want to make CoP comparable/better than SotC you have to:
- optimize INT like crazy
- ideally cast the spell at least 3 times in the hope to get different entities to minimize the personal agenda problem (but if the DM is stingy even this won't change anything..)

[Anthrowhale]

You already only have halve the questions compared to SotC and you need to waste em to confirm your questions. And you need to confirm that the Confirmation question did give you the correct answer and didn't lie to you. So you would need 3 confirmation questions to not end with a 50/50 situation. But a checksum would only confirm if all previous answers are true but not which answers are true and which have been lies.
To be really on the safe side, you would need to ask every single question 3 times. But all that doesn't help if the deity has an agenda regarding that topic.

The information theoretic limits here are well established.

At least 88% of symbols are getting through, so coding theory says you can have a code rate (~= questions answered / questions asked) of at least 76% (=100%- 2x(100%-88%)) in the limit as you have many questions. Hence, we should think of CoP as having ~3/4 of the nominal questions for an intelligent questioner.

As an aside, the structure of these results is that you write down all of your questions in advance and entangle them. As an example: "If I was to ask A, B, C, ... X, Y, Z, what would the parity of the answers be?" If you ask many different orthogonal questions of this sort then you can decode the answer to A,B, C, ... X, Y, Z by finding the yes/no answers which with the least violations of the answers. The doubling factor comes into play because an adversary can make all lies point towards an alternate way to answer. COP is actually significantly superior to this because you can get one word answers (rather than yes/no answers), and because you can ask questions adaptively. Now this is player knowledge rather than character knowledge, but it is informative that much more than you are imagining is possible. As a practical matter, a strategy which reserves every 4th question to checksum the previous 3, every 13th question to checksum the previous checksums, every 40th question to checksum the previous meta-checksums, etc... should be quite effective.

As a metagame point, it's sort of you vs. the DM. As long as the DM is playing fair, it's pretty hard to truly mislead with COP using techniques like the above.


As said, unless you persist TS it ain't a big help. Either you are in combat and don't wanna waste your turn on it or you are out of combat and can use time and brains to deal with the illusion.

Suppose you are in combat and the bad guys have precast a number of illusory walls around the battlefield which they keep attacking you from behind? AoE spells can get around line of sight, but they have limited effect.



It doesn't matter how good you roll or how often you ask confirmation questions. If the entity lies once to you regarding a topic/question because of a personal agenda, he will lie about all related questions.

I'm honestly not following this interpretation. COP is clear that you randomize with the table. Personality may affect which one-word answer is used, which lie, or which random answer. If you are interpreting as paranthetical as violating this, it seems counter to RAW.


I also would like to add that CoP also requires an INT check (which could be problematic if you are a Sorc) that increases with the planes and deities.

Surge of Fortune makes this a noop. If the sorcerer isn't getting this from Dragonblood Spell-pact, then they can use Limited Wish.

[Chronos]

Quoth Anthrowhale:

COP is actually significantly superior to this because you can get one word answers (rather than yes/no answers), and because you can ask questions adaptively.
But that also makes it much harder to construct "parity" of answers, or the like. And it also means that, even if you figure out that a particular answer was a lie, you can't necessarily determine what the true answer was.

Also, if you're relying on repeated castings to get enough grist for your information-mill, then you have to deal with the fact that you might get different Entities on different castings. And while greater deities have near-total knowledge of mortal affairs, they do not necessarily have total knowledge of other greater deities. So if you ask anything on Casting 2 concerning whether answers from Casting 1 are true or false, you might just get a bunch of "I don't know".

Quoth Gruftzwerg:

Sure that is a point for COP, but imho a very lil one. Because most problems to solve (with these kind of spells) happen to be in an urban environments imho.
And even if the problem itself isn't in an urban environment, there's still likely to be someone in a major city who knows it. Worst case, as someone mentioned, you can planeshift to Sigil: If anyone anywhere in the multiverse knows something, you can bet that there's someone in Sigil who knows it, too.

[Anthrowhale]

FYI, I added discussion of Susurrus of the City to the Contact Other Plane entry. My overall take is that COP > SotC in terms of really difficult to get information (i.e. exists in no living memory, exists on other planes, exists in wilderness only), etc..., but SotC is definitely less finicky to use. An additional consideration with SotC is that a high gather information check can replace much of it, and we certainly have the spells on list to max out gather information check.

I also dropped True Seeing in favor of Telekinesis at ECL10. Again, skills come into play---Spellcraft allows you to identify that a spell is in place and having identified it a will check allows you to see through illusions.


But that also makes it much harder to construct "parity" of answers, or the like.
There are extensions of this approach to larger alphabets. However, I don't want to defend this---it's meant as an observation of what's possible rather than something you would actually do in a game.


And it also means that, even if you figure out that a particular answer was a lie, you can't necessarily determine what the true answer was.
I'm not quite following this. If you discover that something was a lie, there is typically another way to ask the question, yes? And since questions and answers are sequential, you could choose new questions.


Also, if you're relying on repeated castings to get enough grist for your information-mill, then you have to deal with the fact that you might get different Entities on different castings. And while greater deities have near-total knowledge of mortal affairs, they do not necessarily have total knowledge of other greater deities. So if you ask anything on Casting 2 concerning whether answers from Casting 1 are true or false, you might just get a bunch of "I don't know".

That's true. 13 questions with 9 real questions and 4 checksums seems reasonable at caster level 26. At caster level 42, you could go with 16 real questions and 5 checksums. With a double checksum, you drop the odds of a lie getting through to .12^3=.0017, which seems small enough to work with.


And even if the problem itself isn't in an urban environment, there's still likely to be someone in a major city who knows it. Worst case, as someone mentioned, you can planeshift to Sigil: If anyone anywhere in the multiverse knows something, you can bet that there's someone in Sigil who knows it, too.
The Sigil angle is interesting.

[loky1109]

I should mention Energy Shield spell from Diablo II: Diaberie. It's 5th level Sorceress spell.
It's s a personal spell with duration "Ends when caster rests". Spell allows convert spells to hp to negate damage taken. Rate is one spell level - six hp damage and you can convert any amount of spells at once. Unused hp remains until the spell ends.

[Anthrowhale]

I should mention Energy Shield spell from Diablo II: Diaberie. It's 5th level Sorceress spell.
It's s a personal spell with duration "Ends when caster rests". Spell allows convert spells to hp to negate damage taken. Rate is one spell level - six hp damage and you can convert any amount of spells at once. Unused hp remains until the spell ends.

If I understand right, this spell turns other spells available to cast into hitpoints on demand, making the sorceress have effectively more hit points than any other character. That's a pretty good effect, but I'm not sure it's top-10. What would you drop for it? I'm also skeptical that we should include on the grounds that Diablo II: Diablerie is not particularly well-recognized. It's kind of like Kingdoms of Kalamar in that vein.

[loky1109]

If I understand right, this spell turns other spells available to cast into hitpoints on demand, making the sorceress have effectively more hit points than any other character. That's a pretty good effect, but I'm not sure it's top-10. What would you drop for it? I'm also skeptical that we should include on the grounds that Diablo II: Diablerie is not particularly well-recognized. It's kind of like Kingdoms of Kalamar in that vein.

Diablo II books are actually official 1st party materials while slightly obscure.
What would I drop? Hm... Call Avalanche doesn't look top-10 for me.

[Chronos]

That's not too different from letting you spontaneously turn your spells into healing spells, but 6 HP per spell level is unimpressive even by the already-unimpressive standards of healing spells (Cure Light Wounds averages better than that from CL 2 on, and others are better than that). It's not bad that it doesn't require an action to use, and lets you withstand high burst damage, but I still think it's short of Top 10 material.

[Anthrowhale]

Diablo II books are actually official 1st party materials while slightly obscure.
So is Kingdoms of Kalamar. We skipped Summon Fey there due to it's out-there status.


What would I drop? Hm... Call Avalanche doesn't look top-10 for me.
What's the reasoning? Convince me. This is a Reflex save encounter ender in many situations. Buried, long range, and 10'caster level radius are much more potent conditions than 1-round daze, 30' range, and 30' radius which we have at spell level 4.


That's not too different from letting you spontaneously turn your spells into healing spells, but 6 HP per spell level is unimpressive even by the already-unimpressive standards of healing spells (Cure Light Wounds averages better than that from CL 2 on, and others are better than that). It's not bad that it doesn't require an action to use, and lets you withstand high burst damage, but I still think it's short of Top 10 material.
It's something like Elan Resilience (2hp/PP as a swift action) in effect.

It's perhaps worth mentioning that we ended up passing on Revenance at level 4 which sort-of heals half your hit points.

[RandomPeasant]

awaken is an interesting spell. Used the way your'e supposed to use it, it's kinda crap, giving you a mediocre minion with a pretty weak loyalty guarantee. But if you can give yourself the animal type, you can stack CHA bonuses as much as you want (provided you have some way to get rid of the extra HD). That's a compelling niche.


The polymorpher can do similar, yes? I'm not really seeing the asymmetry. Worse case, they need to reinvoke Polymorph, so this is really about the duration of Polymorph vs. the duration of Enhance Wild Shape.

Using polymorph puts you behind a 4th level spell slot compared to using Wild Shape. Now, sure, that washes out if the Wild Shaper is using enhance wild shape, but they won't always. if you want a combat form rather than extra actions, you'd probably be better off with venomfire or aspect of the wolf + animal growth or something like that. Plus, polymorph is much, much lower duration than Wild Shape. As a 10th level Druid you have 40 daily hours of Wild Shape, compared to the ten minutes polymorph lasts.


If Unfettered Heroism works, then we may not care about L5- spells.

Are we also going to be evaluating silent image on the assumption that it is used by a fully developed Shadowcraft Mage and assessing the rest of our spells on that basis?


Your position is clear. It's just not convincing yet.

And yours is? You have put greater dispel magic on the ECL 10 list of 5th level spells on the basis of a class that cannot cast greater dispel magic at ECL 10 and a class that does not actually learn any 5th level spells it can choose for itself. What is the framework where that makes sense that does not equally imply that greater dispel magic is a 3rd level spell (because of the Trapsmith) and antimagic field is a 5th level spell (because of the Runescarred Berserker)? Because I would actually support 3rd level greater dispel magic on the ECL 20 list or 5th level antimagic field on the 10th level list.


Charge free use of a staff seems at least decent. Theoretically, you could persist Unfettered Heroism and then use Wand Surge off one of a selection of cheap Staffs with a single charge each all day long.

"This spell is good because my DM will let me buy partially charged wands staves" does not strike me as a compelling argument.


That's not too different from letting you spontaneously turn your spells into healing spells, but 6 HP per spell level is unimpressive even by the already-unimpressive standards of healing spells (Cure Light Wounds averages better than that from CL 2 on, and others are better than that). It's not bad that it doesn't require an action to use, and lets you withstand high burst damage, but I still think it's short of Top 10 material.

Also casting, like, celerity for an extra action + teleport to run away will generally do a better job of protecting you from HP damage at a lower cost than this will.

[loky1109]

So is Kingdoms of Kalamar. We skipped Summon Fey there due to it's out-there status.
No, it isn't. Publishers Kenzer and Company.
It licensed, but it's 3rd party.

Buried is good condition, but even at 10th ECL it's easy avoidable.

[Anthrowhale]

(provided you have some way to get rid of the extra HD).
This seems like an enormous proviso to me. There is no clear precedent that you can preferentially get rid of the animal HD and those two extra HD are an enormous drag if a DM uses lycanthropy is a precedent.



Using polymorph puts you behind a 4th level spell slot compared to using Wild Shape. Now, sure, that washes out if the Wild Shaper is using enhance wild shape, but they won't always. if you want a combat form rather than extra actions, you'd probably be better off with venomfire or aspect of the wolf + animal growth or something like that.

I'm skeptical about this. My impression is that weapon-buffing spells are better than animal buffing spells. Greater Mighty Wallop hits again.


Are we also going to be evaluating silent image on the assumption that it is used by a fully developed Shadowcraft Mage and assessing the rest of our spells on that basis?

No, it's just a possibility.


And yours is? You have put greater dispel magic on the ECL 10 list of 5th level spells on the basis of a class that cannot cast greater dispel magic at ECL 10 and a class that does not actually learn any 5th level spells it can choose for itself. What is the framework where that makes sense that does not equally imply that greater dispel magic is a 3rd level spell (because of the Trapsmith) and antimagic field is a 5th level spell (because of the Runescarred Berserker)? Because I would actually support 3rd level greater dispel magic on the ECL 20 list or 5th level antimagic field on the 10th level list.

Let's revisit the question of how we classify things after doing a first pass.


"This spell is good because my DM will let me buy partially charged wands staves" does not strike me as a compelling argument.

That's an unnecessary extreme. Even with a full-price staff, Persistent Unfettered Heroicsm + Wand Surge is a pretty good option. In essence it's the ability to cast any particular spell an unlimited number of times/day.

No, it isn't. Publishers Kenzer and Company.

That's fair, I guess. It's officially _endorsed_ by WotC though.


Buried is good condition, but even at 10th ECL it's easy avoidable.
Can you explain? I believe most monsters don't have a good way to avoid at ECL10.

Overall, I'm inclined against the spell for top-10. Those spell slots are what make a spellcaster valuable in the party. Converting them into a bag of hit points is rarely useful.

[loky1109]

That's not too different from letting you spontaneously turn your spells into healing spells, but 6 HP per spell level is unimpressive even by the already-unimpressive standards of healing spells (Cure Light Wounds averages better than that from CL 2 on, and others are better than that). It's not bad that it doesn't require an action to use, and lets you withstand high burst damage, but I still think it's short of Top 10 material.

It's something like Elan Resilience (2hp/PP as a swift action) in effect.
No and No. It isn't healing, or damage reduction. Functionally it's Temp HP.


That's fair, I guess. It's officially _endorsed_ by WotC though.
It's endorsed by WotC 3rd party material.


Can you explain? I believe most monsters don't have a good way to avoid at ECL10.
Firstly, big part of monsters are humanoids with class levels.
Secondly, if we talk about CR 10 "monsters"... I don't have answer right now, I should make some research, but there are enough Huge sized monsters with CR 10-, there are enough incorporeal monsters, there are monsters with high Reflex, many fire subtype monsters or monsters with fire attack , many monsters with burrow speed.

[Anthrowhale]

Edit: updated to prefer Control Winds over Call Avalanche, primarily because Call Avalanche requires that you are outdoors while Control Winds does not (somewhat surprisingly). Control Winds also provides a solid building destruction spell.


Functionally it's Temp HP.
Well, it's Temp HP at the cost of your primary function in the party.

At level 10 a sorcerer can have ~400 Temp HP from this source and they might have 60 hit points from level up (base Con 14+2(enhance)). So, this really helps sorcerer survivability, but it also unpredictably nerfs the sorcerer's ability to do useful things.

Consider several regimes:

(a) You take 50 damage in an encounter. Just use a wand of lesser vigor offline. This costs 75gp.
(b) You take 100 points of damage and sink it all via Temp HP-at-the-cost-of-spells. This costs 17 spell levels.
(c) You take 100 points of damage and the party casts Last Breath on you and then lesser vigor to reach full hit points. This costs 5 spell levels and 590gp. Expending 590 gp in an encounter is expensive, but the game is designed to budget ~1200gp/encounter at 10th level, so that seems not unreasonable.
(d) You take 50 damage off your real HP and then 50 Temp HP-at-the-cost-of-spells. This costs ~75gp + 9 spell levels.

Looking at this, (c) may be superior to (d) and (b) in some circumstances, and is often at least not terribly inferior.



Firstly, big part of monsters are humanoids with class levels.
Call Avalanche often works there.


there are enough Huge sized monsters with CR 10-,
This seems modest---I'm sure there are a few. On the other hand there are several ways to have caster level 12 at ECL 10.


there are enough incorporeal monsters, there are monsters with high Reflex,... many monsters with burrow speed.

Sure, those require a different solution. We're looking at the top 10 spells here, so the goal is that all 10 cover the situations encountered, not that one spell covers all situations.


many fire subtype monsters or monsters with fire attack ,
Fire subtype seems of limited relevance here.