Pimp the charisma for a half nymph bard.

[shadowseve]

So. I have a pc with me in the same campaign who is playing a half elf/half nymph bard, I’m looking for all the best ways to really pump up her cha. Now keep in mind she’s chaotic Good so no making pacts with evil things. lol 😂 thank you for the help. The campaign hasn’t started yet and all books allowed including dragon magazine.

[Prime32]

There are elf subraces which get a Cha bonus, like Star Elf (Unapproachable East) and Lesser Celadrin (Dragon #350 + lesser planetouched rules in Player's Guide to Faerun)

[shadowseve]

So, there was half elf for the afc and story. So, could these be added on to what she has? I’ve never dived into subraces before.

My brain doesn’t work like it used to do please forgive me if I ask a stupid question.


Nvm those are races and not templates. Dumb question.

[paladinn]

Back in the old "Fight Club" articles, there was a succubus bard. There's some Cha goodness right there:)

[shadowseve]

Back in the old "Fight Club" articles, there was a succubus bard. There's some Cha goodness right there:)

I had actually literally talked with my wife about making a redeemed succubus bard. Lol this bard works for a holy church and also has a lead role as an assassin too. Not sure how a succubus would work with that.

[Biggus]

You may find some useful stuff here: https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=19943.0

[lylsyly]

If it's not too late to add anothe template, there is Fire Souled (DR314 p23) at LA +1, that is a +4 to CHA and some other goodness.

[shadowseve]

You may find some useful stuff here: https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=19943.0

I will def check that out. Thanks!

[Prime32]

So. I have a pc with me in the same campaign who is playing a half elf/half nymph bard

So, there was half elf for the afc and story.
Is she one-half elf, one-half nymph (an elf with the half-nymph template)... or one-quarter elf, one-quarter human, one-half nymph (a half-elf with the half-nymph template)? :smallconfused:

[shadowseve]

Is she one-half elf, one-half nymph (an elf with the half-nymph template)... or one-quarter elf, one-quarter human, one-half nymph (a half-elf with the half-nymph template)? :smallconfused:

Half elf with the half nymph template.

[Inevitability]

If you're a half-elf, then three levels in Half-Elf Paragon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfElfParagon) will give you +2 to a stat of your choice, though you end up down two caster levels and three levels of bardic music. You also get boosts to all charisma-based skills! After Bard 3 (for the bonus feat) / Half-Elf Paragon 3 you should be able to head straight into a PrC; Lyric Thaumaturge is a very solid option that's eminently doable if you order your levels right.

[Rebel7284]

What levels are you planning to play this at?

At higher levels, especially with some levels of Sublime Chord and some ways to Persist spells, you can get a very nice bonus with spells.

Nixie's Grace +8 Enhancement (persistable)
Inner Beauty +4 Sacred (extendable)
Snowsong +4 Morale (persistable)

Even without Persistent Spell, those all last for 10 minutes per level, so with a Rod of Extend Spell and some caster level boosters, can easily be ~5 hours.

Some other ways to boost your charisma:
- Aging: often overlooked, but at least middle age is a perfectly reasonable +1 to all mental stats for -1 to all physical. Older categories get harder to use without cheese.
- Both Half-Elf paragon and Human Paragon can boost your Charisma
Divided Ancestry (Ex)Unlike other racial paragons, half-elves can take levels in more than one racial paragon class. After gaining at least one level as a half-elf paragon, a character can take either elf paragon levels or human paragon levels (but not both).
- Spark (Magic-blooded) template in Dragon #306 is definitely applicable to Half-Elves and gives +2 Cha, -2 Wis for 0 LA. There is some debate if it can be applies to all races, but it explicitly works for PHB races!
- I like a quick dip into Dragon Devotee for +2 Cha if your built has space for it.
- A few other templates with LA can boost charisma further, but you already have +2LA and any more hurts a lot (although if LA buyoff is allowed and you are likely playing a long game, +3LA can be good)
- 3 levels of Fiend Blooded would give you +1 Cha with no loss in spellcasting progression, but you would need to not be good, so this probably doesn't work.

So combined you can have something like:
Middle Aged Half Nymph Spark Half-Elf (LA+2)
Bard 1/Half Elf Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3/Bard +3/Sublime Chord 2/progress chord with Spelldancer

Ideal if you can get Mobility and Endurance from Items to qualify for Spelldancer cheaply
Shadahkar's Swift Wind (Dragon 324 p. 75) 8350 gp.
Mobility armor (MIC p. 13) +1 Bonus

So your charisma at say level 12 can be:
18 Base
+1 Middle Age
+6 Template
+4 Class
+3 Level Up

32 Charisma
+
16 from the aforementioned spells
48 Charisma

Oh, and if you can snag Ability Enhancer feat from Dragon Compendium 91, you can get +4 more from your spells for 52 Charisma.

Of course at the highest of levels, you also snag a Tome of Influence and Leadership for another +5 and get that final +2 for level up for a final Charisma score of high 50s or even low 60s.

Just don't challenge any gods to a beauty contest. I hear that doesn't end well.

[shadowseve]

What levels are you planning to play this at?

At higher levels, especially with some levels of Sublime Chord and some ways to Persist spells, you can get a very nice bonus with spells.

Nixie's Grace +8 Enhancement (persistable)
Inner Beauty +4 Sacred (extendable)
Snowsong +4 Morale (persistable)

Even without Persistent Spell, those all last for 10 minutes per level, so with a Rod of Extend Spell and some caster level boosters, can easily be ~5 hours.

Some other ways to boost your charisma:
- Aging: often overlooked, but at least middle age is a perfectly reasonable +1 to all mental stats for -1 to all physical. Older categories get harder to use without cheese.
- Both Half-Elf paragon and Human Paragon can boost your Charisma
- Spark (Magic-blooded) template in Dragon #306 is definitely applicable to Half-Elves and gives +2 Cha, -2 Wis for 0 LA. There is some debate if it can be applies to all races, but it explicitly works for PHB races!
- I like a quick dip into Dragon Devotee for +2 Cha if your built has space for it.
- A few other templates with LA can boost charisma further, but you already have +2LA and any more hurts a lot (although if LA buyoff is allowed and you are likely playing a long game, +3LA can be good)
- 3 levels of Fiend Blooded would give you +1 Cha with no loss in spellcasting progression, but you would need to not be good, so this probably doesn't work.

So combined you can have something like:
Middle Aged Half Nymph Spark Half-Elf (LA+2)
Bard 1/Half Elf Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3/Bard +3/Sublime Chord 2/progress chord with Spelldancer

Ideal if you can get Mobility and Endurance from Items to qualify for Spelldancer cheaply
Shadahkar's Swift Wind (Dragon 324 p. 75) 8350 gp.
Mobility armor (MIC p. 13) +1 Bonus

So your charisma at say level 12 can be:
18 Base
+1 Middle Age
+6 Template
+4 Class
+3 Level Up

32 Charisma
+
16 from the aforementioned spells
48 Charisma

Oh, and if you can snag Ability Enhancer feat from Dragon Compendium 91, you can get +4 more from your spells for 52 Charisma.

Of course at the highest of levels, you also snag a Tome of Influence and Leadership for another +5 and get that final +2 for level up for a final Charisma score of high 50s or even low 60s.

Just don't challenge any gods to a beauty contest. I hear that doesn't end well.

I like the idea but would the paragon be worth losing the caster levels? So the bard is gestalted as bard//rogue. Not the best gestalt, but the whole idea is an assassin for the church who is known as the Siren of Eternal Night. She is tied to the moon so the premise is using her bardic abilities to charm and entrance her victims with illusions/charm to keep from killing if need be, but still be able to handle a target from shadows if need be. So every prestige, feat has to bring her closer to that goal. We also have an awakened mouse in the party who is a rogue so they always have a flanking partner.

[Chronos]

If you're gestalt, then a lot depends on how your DM interprets that interacting with non-base-classes (such as prestige or paragon classes), racial HD, and LA. One interpretation I've seen is that you can take a prestige class on only one side at a time, and racial HD and LA both take up only one side of your progression, in which case you can stack a LOT of templates and exotic races.

[shadowseve]

If you're gestalt, then a lot depends on how your DM interprets that interacting with non-base-classes (such as prestige or paragon classes), racial HD, and LA. One interpretation I've seen is that you can take a prestige class on only one side at a time, and racial HD and LA both take up only one side of your progression, in which case you can stack a LOT of templates and exotic races.

The dm is my wife so… lol 😂 playing around with the gestalt is not an issue. I don’t mind stacking some templates as long as I can keep both the rogue/bard assassin vibe up and be viable in and out of combat. So, if I can keep the theme then I’m open.

I have a feeling I’m about to get hit with vampirism at some point since this seems to leading towards a very vampire based theme.

[Rebel7284]

I like the idea but would the paragon be worth losing the caster levels?

In general, I think the paragon classes are a small downgrade. Bard class features are nifty, and while +4 Charisma is very good and the extra two feats and skills you get are helpful, Your casting only catches up once you start doing Sublime Chord and you miss out on a few bard gems in the meantime.

With that said, your thread title said to focus on optimizing Charisma, so that's what I did. :)


So the bard is gestalted as bard//rogue. Not the best gestalt, but the whole idea is an assassin for the church who is known as the Siren of Eternal Night. She is tied to the moon so the premise is using her bardic abilities to charm and entrance her victims with illusions/charm to keep from killing if need be, but still be able to handle a target from shadows if need be. So every prestige, feat has to bring her closer to that goal.

Is this a full gestalt where you can always take two classes every time you level or is it just that Bard specifically is getting extra class features?

If this is full gestalt, your options open up a LOT (for example, you could take those paragon classes without losing any casting progression)

Also, I haven't see the answer to this, what level range do you expect to be playing? Are you starting at level 1?



We also have an awakened mouse in the party who is a rogue so they always have a flanking partner.

Typically mice would have trouble with flanking since they are too small to threaten adjacent squares. Reach weapon fixes this though.

[shadowseve]

In general, I think the paragon classes are a small downgrade. Bard class features are nifty, and while +4 Charisma is very good and the extra two feats and skills you get are helpful, Your casting only catches up once you start doing Sublime Chord and you miss out on a few bard gems in the meantime.

With that said, your thread title said to focus on optimizing Charisma, so that's what I did. :)



Is this a full gestalt where you can always take two classes every time you level or is it just that Bard specifically is getting extra class features?

If this is full gestalt, your options open up a LOT (for example, you could take those paragon classes without losing any casting progression)

Also, I haven't see the answer to this, what level range do you expect to be playing? Are you starting at level 1?



Typically mice would have trouble with flanking since they are too small to threaten adjacent squares. Reach weapon fixes this though. he’ll be using a reach weapon.

So, this is a full gestalt going from 3 to hopefully 20. Bard on one side. Rogue one the other.

[Biggus]

Typically mice would have trouble with flanking since they are too small to threaten adjacent squares. Reach weapon fixes this though.

How does the reach weapon fix it? Aren't mice too small to have reach at all?

[shadowseve]

How does the reach weapon fix it? Aren't mice too small to have reach at all?

Could he not use ranged!

[Inevitability]

Could he not use ranged!

To flank, you need to threaten your enemy's square and be across that square from your fellow flanker.

Mice have 0 ft. reach (so with a reach weapon they still have 0 ft. reach) and do not 'threaten'. Ranged attacks don't threaten in the first place.

The SRD agrees.



Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.


Giving the mouse Martial Study (Shadow Hand maneuver) and Martial Stance (Island of Blades) as feats, that would let it flank whenever it and an ally are merely adjacent to the same creature, no reach required. If it has 3 HD or can take a swordsage level, this is an option.

[shadowseve]

To flank, you need to threaten your enemy's square and be across that square from your fellow flanker.

Mice have 0 ft. reach (so with a reach weapon they still have 0 ft. reach) and do not 'threaten'. Ranged attacks don't threaten in the first place.

The SRD agrees.



Giving the mouse Martial Study (Shadow Hand maneuver) and Martial Stance (Island of Blades) as feats, that would let it flank whenever it and an ally are merely adjacent to the same creature, no reach required. If it has 3 HD or can take a swordsage level, this is an option.

I think he was talking with the dm about sword sage anyways. Prob solved. Thanks.

[shadowseve]

So the half nymph was giving as a freebie la wise due to the story. So I’m thinking, spark, unseelie, half fey, half nymph. Since fey In her world are inherently good, that takes care of the alignment issue with the unseelie. The hit to con hurts but the plus 4 to dex, 10 to cha plus abilities outweighs that. I do want her to wipe the floor with Aphrodite in a beauty contest when all is said and done as long as I’m not gimping the rogue part as well.

Or, even better if I could find a way to ditch the rogue part and still be as good of an assassin and be viable in combat. That would work as well.

[Rebel7284]

I have been thinking a bit about this and I have a few concerns:

- How will you maintain good alignment while being an assassin? Unless your targets are always utterly irredeemable creatures like undead and evil outsiders, premeditated murder is a fairly evil act. Also, typically good organizations don't hire assassins to begin with. Ruby Knight Vindicator and Grey Guard explore that territory a little bit, so it's certainly doable, just... complicated.

- Bard spells _always_ have a verbal components, which really doesn't mesh well with the hide and move silently aspect of a rogue/assassin. There are ways around it, but they are typically cumbersome.
* Nonverbal Spell for example allows you to make other sounds instead of verbal components and while that opens up some fun roleplaying trying to find an appropriate sound for your environment, it is unreliable.
* Casting Silence on a pebble, then walking away and casting Joyful Noise, then picking up that Pebble will give you and area of sound and then a surrounding area of silence around that. However, Joyful Noise requires concentration, which limits what you can do (Obtain Familiar + Familiar Concentration solves that, but that's TWO feats)
* Zone of Silence solves this completely, but it's a 4th level spell so takes a while to be available.

Besides the issue with spellcasting, making a Bard who can sneak up on someone and apply a ton of damage is certainly doable, especially with the extra levels provided by gestalt.
- You already have Hide and Move Silently on your skill list and get a ton of skill points.
- Dragonfire Inspiration can roll a ton of bonus dice without even needing to leave bard (although subsonics feat might be helpful here if you want to do music while hiding)
- Snowflake Wardance, Slippers of Battledancing, Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows all leverage your Charisma to hit and/or damage.
- Hit-and-run style fighter (typically a drow tactic, but available to everyone) and Shadow Blade feat also leverage your significant Dex
- In general the "Bardsader/Barbblade" builds are fairly well known since Song of the White Raven to combine Warblade/Crusader with Bard is good and maneuvers help a lot with making a Bard into a melee monster.
- Bards can also qualify for Swiftblade, which is an excellent class that eventually gives you extra actions. Also requirements overlap with Spelldancer.

Some other thoughts:
- In later levels, Assume Supernatural Ability(Unearthly Grace) could be very nice. Turn into a full Nymph and get Charisma to AC and Saves (possibly for the second or third time).
- Battledancer is a single dip, fits for a bard, and gives you Charisma to AC.
- A single level in cloistered cleric opens up a lot of options such as
* Travel Devotion: (helpful for Slippers of Battledancing and Swiftblade, but extra mobility is always good and you can trade a domain to get it for free)
* Divine Might: Charisma to Damage another time
* Potentially some defensive abilities such as the Luck domain.
* Planning Domain gives you Extend Spell, which is very nice if you are going for Persistent Spell in later levels.

Of course you can't include EVERYTHING, but this should be a good starting point.

[shadowseve]

I have been thinking a bit about this and I have a few concerns:

- How will you maintain good alignment while being an assassin? Unless your targets are always utterly irredeemable creatures like undead and evil outsiders, premeditated murder is a fairly evil act. Also, typically good organizations don't hire assassins to begin with. Ruby Knight Vindicator and Grey Guard explore that territory a little bit, so it's certainly doable, just... complicated.

- Bard spells _always_ have a verbal components, which really doesn't mesh well with the hide and move silently aspect of a rogue/assassin. There are ways around it, but they are typically cumbersome.
* Nonverbal Spell for example allows you to make other sounds instead of verbal components and while that opens up some fun roleplaying trying to find an appropriate sound for your environment, it is unreliable.
* Casting Silence on a pebble, then walking away and casting Joyful Noise, then picking up that Pebble will give you and area of sound and then a surrounding area of silence around that. However, Joyful Noise requires concentration, which limits what you can do (Obtain Familiar + Familiar Concentration solves that, but that's TWO feats)
* Zone of Silence solves this completely, but it's a 4th level spell so takes a while to be available.

Besides the issue with spellcasting, making a Bard who can sneak up on someone and apply a ton of damage is certainly doable, especially with the extra levels provided by gestalt.
- You already have Hide and Move Silently on your skill list and get a ton of skill points.
- Dragonfire Inspiration can roll a ton of bonus dice without even needing to leave bard (although subsonics feat might be helpful here if you want to do music while hiding)
- Snowflake Wardance, Slippers of Battledancing, Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows all leverage your Charisma to hit and/or damage.
- Hit-and-run style fighter (typically a drow tactic, but available to everyone) and Shadow Blade feat also leverage your significant Dex
- In general the "Bardsader/Barbblade" builds are fairly well known since Song of the White Raven to combine Warblade/Crusader with Bard is good and maneuvers help a lot with making a Bard into a melee monster.
- Bards can also qualify for Swiftblade, which is an excellent class that eventually gives you extra actions. Also requirements overlap with Spelldancer.

Some other thoughts:
- In later levels, Assume Supernatural Ability(Unearthly Grace) could be very nice. Turn into a full Nymph and get Charisma to AC and Saves (possibly for the second or third time).
- Battledancer is a single dip, fits for a bard, and gives you Charisma to AC.
- A single level in cloistered cleric opens up a lot of options such as
* Travel Devotion: (helpful for Slippers of Battledancing and Swiftblade, but extra mobility is always good and you can trade a domain to get it for free)
* Divine Might: Charisma to Damage another time
* Potentially some defensive abilities such as the Luck domain.
* Planning Domain gives you Extend Spell, which is very nice if you are going for Persistent Spell in later levels.

Of course you can't include EVERYTHING, but this should be a good starting point.

Assassins are a grey area for sure. But think of it this way. Which is more evil, the Paladin who slaughtered thousands in a war, or the assassin who struck the head and prevented the war to begin with? Right now we’re trying to stop a dragon who is Lord of the realm of nightmares from creating his perfect reality and crazy ass vampire hell bent on releasing him to do just that, so no short of evil insanity. lol 😂

So this character is actually half as old in real life as I am. She started as a vampiric rogue and when I saw the prestige class, slayer of Domiel. I kinda developed the assassin who “walks in the shadows to serve the light.” Sorry to go all assassins creed. I’ve built her before as a rogue with cloistered cleric with a dip in sword sage etc…
This time I thought using bard to have a more subterfuge, secret agent feel. The one who charms her way in to the top, poisons the subjects drink and use presdigitation to change the flavor so he doesn’t notice. Once he’s asleep then a locking garrote, dagger etc… (name any roguish thing” to finish the job. But she needs to be able to handle herself should her bluff, intimidation, diplomacy, etc fails.

Conceal Spellcasting Skill Trick (CS 85)
Can only be used once in an encounter.
Also a sleight of hand check vs opposed spot check.
Success means they cannot tell that you’re casting regardless of components.
Observer also cannot attempt an attack of opportunity.
Observer cannot attempt to counter the spell.

Sleight of Hand Skill (RoS 133)
Can use multiple times in an encounter.
Sleight of hand check vs opposed spot check.
Success makes verbal and somatic go unnoticed.) that helps take care of up close spell casting.

Question is, my brain not being what it used to be, should I ditch rogue and use the gestalt for the la’s and maybe a few dips or what. I have nuero issues so I can’t put all the pieces together like I use to. There’s just a lot to fit in on class dips when, how many, etc. now a days it’s bit overwhelming.