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View Full Version : Optimization Issues with paladin/theurgy wizard build.



Thrormathan
2023-09-09, 03:03 PM
Well, I have VERY HIGH STATS, and all content is allowed. Should I go pally 2 for divine smite, then UA Wizard School of Theurgy (Zeal Domain: Planeshift, Amonkhet X? At 2nd level, you can smite. At third level, you get shield, you get silvery barbs, you get shield of faith (AC 27 or 25, depending on armor), and you can add Cleric spells to your spellbook. At fourth level, you can smite and maximize booming blade or fire or thunder spells. At 7th level, you can maximize fireball, and cast Haste on yourself, which gives you an extra attack. At 8th level, you can maximize fireball twice and you get bonus action attacks equal to wis mod. At 12th level, you can push everyone 10ft back if you hit them with an attack. At 16th level, you gain Blaze of Glory. At 19th level, you can maximize the fire damage of Meteorite Swarm and you get acces to 9th level spells. At 20th level, you can use 1 first and 1 second level spell as a cantrip. Probably not as much nova as Sorcadin with quickened Hold Person, but you get acces to cleric AND wizard spell list AND you can maximize AoE while still being a melee threat. You have great utility spells, ritual casting, and arcane recovery. You can smite and blast to death all in one turn, while still having acces to the most spells in DnD. You have high AC, but less HP. You can take some feats, if your stats allow to or if you play Vuman, for a push or pull build (maybe PAM) or for resilience (Tough) or Warcaster or Resilient (con) or Metamagic adept for transmuted spell or quickened spell. You can be the paladin who prays texts from his holy book and thus cast spells.

You are the Spellblade.

Ooh, and you can get spiritual weapon, spirit guardians and shadow blade. And Hold Person. And at 20th level you can use you channel arcana a third time per rest, and, btw, channel arcana is per SHORT rest. You can use it to increase the spell save DC of your maximized fire blast spells (Fireball, Meteorite Swarm, Delayed blast Fireball) by 2, or you can make a maximized Searing smite, with an additional +2 to hit.

Are there any issues with my build? Stats are 18, 17, 16, 14, 14, 13.

5eNeedsDarksun
2023-09-09, 03:50 PM
Seems reasonable. I like the interaction between maxing the BladeTrip and Divine Smite. The only thing that I think fits under the 'ask your DM' category is adding the +2 to attacks with something like a BladeTrip and/ or Searing Smite. To me those are spells that require an attack, not directly attacking with a spell. If there's Sage Advice or something else to the contrary then I'd stand corrected.

Thrormathan
2023-09-11, 12:05 PM
Seems reasonable. I like the interaction between maxing the BladeTrip and Divine Smite. The only thing that I think fits under the 'ask your DM' category is adding the +2 to attacks with something like a BladeTrip and/ or Searing Smite. To me those are spells that require an attack, not directly attacking with a spell. If there's Sage Advice or something else to the contrary then I'd stand corrected.

Yeah, booming blade/smite sounds fun. Could also take 6 levels in pally for extra attack, but maybe this is a too big investment? With Oath of Vengeance I could get advantage on attack rolls, UA oath of Heroism would increase crit range. But maximized fireball is delayed a lot. I don't know if I will still be able to blast a lot by that level. What do you think? Is fireball by the way even good at later levels?

5eNeedsDarksun
2023-09-11, 12:36 PM
Yeah, booming blade/smite sounds fun. Could also take 6 levels in pally for extra attack, but maybe this is a too big investment? With Oath of Vengeance I could get advantage on attack rolls, UA oath of Heroism would increase crit range. But maximized fireball is delayed a lot. I don't know if I will still be able to blast a lot by that level. What do you think? Is fireball by the way even good at later levels?

Fireball (particularly without enhancements that come with Dragon Sorc or Evoker) at 11th is niche vs at 5th/6th where in can be an almost universal cure for your problems.

The bigger question with a 6 level investment is: Are the tradeoffs worth it? Now pretty much anyone on here is going to tell you that a Wizard with a 1-2 level dip is a stronger character, but I don't think that's a surprise. So is the character you've proposed viable? I think it is, and it's not weak. You'll have extra attack, what I consider the best feature in the game (Aura of Protection), and be a spellcaster 3 levels behind full progression. I think you'd be a good melee character who uses spells (at best mostly out of combat) to buff their martial ability. Need to get to a flying opponent? Great, you can do that, then go ham with Divine Smite.

At the same time, there's a reason (besides the Cha overlap which you don't need due to stats) that people go Socadin 6/X for higher level campaigns. That reason is Quicken Spell, which allows you to take round 1 and make a real mess. You get to be that caster/ warrior in the same round; Hold Person/ Monster + 3 crit attacks is off the charts. Even Fighter 2,3,or 5/ Wizard X allows for that kind of play with Action Surge.

Ultimately I think there are stronger ways mechanically of doing what you're trying to do if you go Paly 6, but if you like the idea, go with it.

Thrormathan
2023-09-11, 01:10 PM
Fireball (particularly without enhancements that come with Dragon Sorc or Evoker) at 11th is niche vs at 5th/6th where in can be an almost universal cure for your problems.

The bigger question with a 6 level investment is: Are the tradeoffs worth it? Now pretty much anyone on here is going to tell you that a Wizard with a 1-2 level dip is a stronger character, but I don't think that's a surprise. So is the character you've proposed viable? I think it is, and it's not weak. You'll have extra attack, what I consider the best feature in the game (Aura of Protection), and be a spellcaster 3 levels behind full progression. I think you'd be a good melee character who uses spells (at best mostly out of combat) to buff their martial ability. Need to get to a flying opponent? Great, you can do that, then go ham with Divine Smite.

At the same time, there's a reason (besides the Cha overlap which you don't need due to stats) that people go Socadin 6/X for higher level campaigns. That reason is Quicken Spell, which allows you to take round 1 and make a real mess. You get to be that caster/ warrior in the same round; Hold Person/ Monster + 3 crit attacks is off the charts. Even Fighter 2,3,or 5/ Wizard X allows for that kind of play with Action Surge.

Ultimately I think there are stronger ways mechanically of doing what you're trying to do if you go Paly 6, but if you like the idea, go with it.

Yeah but there kicks the maximized fire/thunder damage of zeal domain in.

Thrormathan
2023-09-11, 01:10 PM
Yeah but there kicks the maximized fire/thunder damage of zeal domain in.

Could use this on Searing smite as well.