RIP flex. How would you have done it?

[Damon_Tor]

So the flex weapon mastery is gone. It was boring and ineffective.

However, I am sad to see it wasn't redesigned into something more interesting. Specifically, I wanted to see it becomes a trait that benefits builds that actually use the ability to swap it from a two-handed grip to 1-h + free. Something like:

Flex- When you hit with an attack while wielding this weapon in both hands, you gain advantage on the next test roll you make before the end of your next turn which uses a free hand. This might include an unarmed strike, the attack roll of a spell with a somatic or material component, or a slight of hand check made to pick someone's pocket.

[titi]

That's a really good idea. I was thinking of giving a buff to one-handed, and one to 2-handed, but I couldn't figure out what buff I wanted to give

[Sparky McDibben]

How would I have done it? How would I have done it, you ask?

Well, let me tell you:

I would have ripped the weapons mastery section out of their precious playtest packet WITH MY BARE HANDS AND FED IT TO A PARSEL OF METH-ADDICTED WEASELS!!! AND I WOULD HAVE MADE THE ENTIRE DESIGN TEAM (including any relevant managers, executives, and the FedEx guy who just happened to be in the building at the time) WATCH THE GLORIOUS CAULDRON OF MADNESS THAT ENSUED!!! AND THEN I WOULD HAVE EXHORTED THEM TO TRY AGAIN, SAYING "BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME, BUCKO!!!! MAYBE YOU'LL MAKE SOMETHING ACTUALLY WORTH USING!!!"

(This rant brought to you by the power of hyperbole)

[Hurrashane]

Not sure. Something that lets a weapon being two handed count as heavy could work, then you could GWM with a longsword. Though I don't remember if One changes it needing the heavy property. And/or allow you to give it heavy weapon masteries as the weapon counts as one for you.

Not sure what to do for the one handedness tho.

[Theodoxus]

I'd go with momentum.

"When attacking with a versatile weapon two-handed, your next attack with it will be at advantage if used one-handed. When attacking with a versatile weapon one-handed, your next attack with it will be at advantage if used two-handed.

Works a bit better with extra attack, but even pre-5th level folks get the benefit swapping the weapon between one and two-handed round after round.

Mucks with shields (and to a much lesser extent, TWF) which I think is actually a benefit.


The other thing I'd consider would be allowing two-handed to be considered finesse, and one-handed to use the two-handed damage die.

[Mastikator]

It was supposed to be the simplistic bonus one. So you add +1 to your attack roll and damage, it stacks with magic bonus. Pure and simple. At *level 10 it increases to +2 and at level 20 it increases to +3


*warrior level, barbarian, fighter and monk count as warrior level. Rogue, paladin and ranger count as half warrior level.

[Quietus]

I'd go with momentum.

"When attacking with a versatile weapon two-handed, your next attack with it will be at advantage if used one-handed. When attacking with a versatile weapon one-handed, your next attack with it will be at advantage if used two-handed.

Works a bit better with extra attack, but even pre-5th level folks get the benefit swapping the weapon between one and two-handed round after round.

Mucks with shields (and to a much lesser extent, TWF) which I think is actually a benefit.


The other thing I'd consider would be allowing two-handed to be considered finesse, and one-handed to use the two-handed damage die.

Still makes it categorically worse than Vexing, which is just continuous self-applying advantage.

[Segev]

The trouble with Flex is that it's mathematically already dealing with a very minor difference. Versatile weapons only get an average +1 damage from being wielded two-handed, which is mostly just a "feel-good" change on something that is guaranteed to not increase the number of attacks you can make. The interesting choice is there, but it's not super-important. Mostly, people are going to two-hand a Versatile weapon iff their aesthetic calls for that weapon being two-handed, e.g. with a lot of quarterstaff fighting styles. Otherwise, they'll use an actual two-handed weapon, or they'll do something with their off hand (like wield a shield, which is a for-5e-massive bonus of +2 to AC).

Flex commits two, maybe three grave sins of design for a game, depending how you count them. It is a bit boring, it removes flavor rather than adding it, and it ultimately doesn't do much even on the numeric side of things. It has a "feel-good" boost, but that boost feels less good when it means that the Versatile weapon loses, for all intents and purposes, its Versatile tag and becomes a one-handed weapon that just deals a bigger die type of damage. That's the "boring" and "removes flavor" part. Mathematically, it's just not doing all that much, either, at +1 average damage per attack.

Flex is a semi-obvious "step up" feature to design, probably inspired by the EWP option for Bastard Swords in 3.5 that let you wield them one-handed. That was, technically, a bad investment, too; it actually lowered your damage when you took advantage of it due to how two-handing worked in 3.5. (It made your damage bonus become 1.5x your str mod, instead of just your str mod.)

But Flex, despite being semi-obvious, is too little, and rather than enabling a feature of the weapons (the way the Bastard Sword, which has the specific quality that it could be wielded one-handed if you took the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for it), it practically removes the feature.

All of this adds up to Flex being both an obvious thing to come up with, and a thing that is very hard to make work.

Versatile is already awkwardly positioned with limited utility compared to just wielding a two-handed weapon.

[Monster Manuel]

Flex was boring and mechanically insignificant, but I was disappointed by the choice to drop it entirely, rather than do something more interesting with it.

A lot of "we took a swing at this and missed, so we're reverting back to baseline" thinking. Better to keep trying to innovate, rather than just giving up

[Witty Username]

I didn't mind flex, it was boring but simple, like champion fighter, something I would not likely use but I don't begrudge its existence.

[GeneralVryth]

The whole point of a versatile like weapon in the real world is being able to quickly alternate between being able to make a heavy 2 handed swing and being able to create space and become harder to hit by holding a weapon in one hand.

So that's what I would like to see from a Fighting Style or Mastery focused on a versatile weapon. The ability to rapidly switch from damage to defense. Something like at the beginning of your choose either +1 AC or +2 damage you get that until the beginning of your next turn. Or some other variation on that theme.

[KorvinStarmast]

I would have ripped the weapons mastery section out of their precious playtest packet WITH MY BARE HANDS AND FED IT TO A PARSEL OF METH-ADDICTED WEASELS!!! AND I WOULD HAVE MADE THE ENTIRE DESIGN TEAM (including any relevant managers, executives, and the FedEx guy who just happened to be in the building at the time) WATCH THE GLORIOUS CAULDRON OF MADNESS THAT ENSUED!!! AND THEN I WOULD HAVE EXHORTED THEM TO TRY AGAIN, SAYING "BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME, BUCKO!!!! MAYBE YOU'LL MAKE SOMETHING ACTUALLY WORTH USING!!!" And I'd have been the singer doing harmony, going down a minor fourth.

[One Tin Soldier]

I would have made it so that wielding it one-handed has one mastery property, and wielding it two-handed has a different mastery property. Which would have made it twice as complex as any other mastery while simultaneously doing nothing on its own, so I’m glad they just got rid of it instead.

[ZRN]

Hm, +1 to hit two-handed and +1 to damage one-handed?

[Aimeryan]

How would I have done it? How would I have done it, you ask?

Well, let me tell you:

I would have ripped the weapons mastery section out of their precious playtest packet WITH MY BARE HANDS AND FED IT TO A PARSEL OF METH-ADDICTED WEASELS!!! AND I WOULD HAVE MADE THE ENTIRE DESIGN TEAM (including any relevant managers, executives, and the FedEx guy who just happened to be in the building at the time) WATCH THE GLORIOUS CAULDRON OF MADNESS THAT ENSUED!!! AND THEN I WOULD HAVE EXHORTED THEM TO TRY AGAIN, SAYING "BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME, BUCKO!!!! MAYBE YOU'LL MAKE SOMETHING ACTUALLY WORTH USING!!!"

(This rant brought to you by the power of hyperbole)

I hear ya - the whole 'revised edition' is rather milquetoast.