Is the LA system broken?

[Gaiwecoor]

I don't really like how they currently have the LA system set up.

ECL = Class Levels + Racial HD + LA

So that means a Minotaur (with no class levels) would be an ECL 8 (0 levels + 6 HD + 2 LA). The creature is rated at a CR 4 :smalleek: Any level 8 human fighter has a CR 8. Why such the large discrepancy? Should a player really be "punished" so much, just because they chose a "powerful" race?

A more exaggerated example: the gold dragon wyrmling. ECL 12, with no class levels (8 HD + 4 LA). CR 5. So, even though a player would have to wait until level 12 to play the creature, it would pose as much of a threat or challenge as a human character seven levels lower.

Is there a fix for this? :smallconfused: Would it be too unbalanced just to scrap the level adjustments, and say you can play a creature at its CR? Thus the Minotaur is playable at level 6 (classes taken thereafter), and the wyrmling available at level 5.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[StickMan]

I don't really like how they currently have the LA system set up.

ECL = Class Levels + Racial HD + LA

So that means a Minotaur (with no class levels) would be an ECL 8 (0 levels + 6 HD + 2 LA). The creature is rated at a CR 4 :smalleek: Any level 8 human fighter has a CR 8. Why such the large discrepancy? Should a player really be "punished" so much, just because they chose a "powerful" race?

A more exaggerated example: the gold dragon wyrmling. ECL 12, with no class levels (8 HD + 4 LA). CR 5. So, even though a player would have to wait until level 12 to play the creature, it would pose as much of a threat or challenge as a human character seven levels lower.

Is there a fix for this? :smallconfused: Would it be too unbalanced just to scrap the level adjustments, and say you can play a creature at its CR? Thus the Minotaur is playable at level 6 (classes taken thereafter), and the wyrmling available at level 5.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

The real issue is that CR, ECL and LA all are just not well done and as such its hard to find a good fix other than rewriting the whole system for your game. None of the add up correctly when you want them too, the guys at wizards really dropped the ball on that one and it has cursed us all.

[Fax Celestis]

Stickman's got it right. ECL, CR, and LA claim to be interconnected but aren't really, and even when they are they really don't relate that well. That's really the basis of the problem.

[Yeril]

"A more exaggerated example: the gold dragon wyrmling. ECL 12, with no class levels (8 HD + 4 LA). CR 5. So, even though a player would have to wait until level 12 to play the creature, it would pose as much of a threat or challenge as a human character seven levels lower."

Because A) HD is not equivilent to a level in power, since HD is generaly a few skillpoints and some hitpoints, no matter what race this is never equivilent to a full level in anything, even monk!

and B) CR is not equivilent to how powerful the player would be, because CR scales the challange to a party of 4 players.

Im sure, a single level 12 human would be a equal challange for a party of 4 level 5's.

most 12 characters would be boned when faced with a barrage of magic missiles from a sorcerer, being smashed in the face by a babarian who flanked you between the rogue who sneak attacked you, and whenever you get a attack in? their cleric heals them right up.

[Ulzgoroth]

They don't really claim to be interconnected...CR and ECL are for completely different purposes, and LA is a derivative of ECL (at least in principle). At least, in the perspective that PCs and NPCs are completely different.

Playing monsters at CR can have serious issues with hit-dice based effects. Many monsters have so many more than CR hit dice that they make enormously superior skill-monkeys, for instance.

Also, that isn't really equitable. Remember that a CR X classed NPC has less gear than a level X PC, and a CR X monster frequently has no gear at all.

[Reinboom]

A quick fix:
Remove Level Adjustment
For each 1 level of LA you removed, replace with a level of commoner.

So, a 6 HD, +6 LA succubus? 6 HD succubus +6 commoner levels.

The system is still screwy, however, after that.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The LA system never really was much more than a bandaid pretending to be a deep and meaningful feature. This is coming from one of the few people who like Savage Species.

[Gaiwecoor]

. . .
Im sure, a single level 12 human would be a equal challange for a party of 4 level 5's.

most 12 characters would be boned when faced with a barrage of magic missiles from a sorcerer, being smashed in the face by a babarian who flanked you between the rogue who sneak attacked you, and whenever you get a attack in? their cleric heals them right up.

I think I'm a little confused on what you're saying, there. Maybe I'm reading it in the wrong context. I was meaning (concerning intra-party balance), the character with the LA is significantly weaker than the player sitting next to them.

[Reel On, Love]

Im sure, a single level 12 human would be a equal challange for a party of 4 level 5's.

most 12 characters would be boned when faced with a barrage of magic missiles from a sorcerer, being smashed in the face by a babarian who flanked you between the rogue who sneak attacked you, and whenever you get a attack in? their cleric heals them right up.

You are so wrong it hurts. Any level 12 character worth his salt had better be able to take out a level 5 party.

[Fax Celestis]

A quick fix:
Remove Level Adjustment
For each 1 level of LA you removed, replace with a level of commoner.

So, a 6 HD, +6 LA succubus? 6 HD succubus +6 commoner levels.

The system is still screwy, however, after that.

My quick fix is to turn half of LA (rounded up) into RHD. At least then they have HP, BAB, saves, and skills.

[Ulzgoroth]

Incidentally, some RHD are pretty good. d12 HP, full BAB, 6+int skills, and all good saves? It's not wizard, but it's not dog food either (Well, most dogs don't eat dragon...).

[Ne0]

I've thought about the problem myself, and I think the best way to do it is on a case-by-case basis. LA is generally correct, but if the creature doesn't have good feats/skills/abilties in proportion to its ECL, you should just drop some HD, I'd say.

[brian c]

The thing about LA and CR is, and the reason they're different, is that LA is when something is intended for player characters. Some abilities don't affect a monster's CR very much, because the monster is only seen in combat for about 5 rounds or so, then it's gone forever. If you have a PC playing that monster race, then the same ability could be overpoweringly useful in and out of combat. An example would be a Hound Archon. At CR 4, it's a fair challenge to a party, and it's Greater Teleport at-will is unlikely to be used. However, if Hound Archons were playable as ECL 4 PCs, that same ability would make them very very very very good. As it is, they're playable at ECL 11 (6 RHD, LA +5)

[Ne0]

In other words: WotC wants the DM to play the monsters stupid. :smallbiggrin:
Which is actually what most of them do...

[tyckspoon]

To answer the title question: Largely, yes. Level adjustments only really work well for lower adjustments and aren't properly designed to account for the negative effects of racial HD as well. Even in the ranges where LA more or less works (+1 or +2 races with no racial HD), the writers at Wizards have a very strange sense of what should be given what LA, leading to a very wide range of power within 'equal' adjustments; compare the +1 LA Hobgoblin to the +1 LA Dark template, for example.

Running monsters as characters of their CR would be the fastest fix, although it could create some balance problems with effects that are moderated by HD. You could add or subtract HD to make the creature's HD=CR the same way class-leveled humanoids are with relative ease.

Another option might be something like using the higher of racial HD or LA to determine a character's ECL adjustment and ignoring the other part. The Minotaur would be ECL 6 without class levels (and.. might almost be worth it. Large size, natural armor, a chunky Str and Con bonus, and monstrous humanoid HD are a decent base for a melee build.) and the Wyrmling would be ECL 8 and probably a little under-powered, since most of the really fun dragon abilities don't start showing up until the Juvenile-Adult age categories.

[Animefunkmaster]

My fix, which is being tested by my group is:
LA is special HD.

Where you gain:
1d0 hp + con (essentially only con)
0 bab (I also use fractional bab)
All poor saves
0+int Skill Points
4 "Class Skills" (Chosen once and last for each level of LA, based on the class skills you have from a single class to which you are taking levels in)
Treated as HD for all purposes (including, but not limited to, IL and Practiced Spell Caster/Manifester)

So basically you gain nothing from LA, but you have no penalties to class skills and things based on HD.

[Tokiko Mima]

IMO, LA exists because some powers are far more useful in a PC's hands than in a monsters hands. When they create a monster that's going to challenge a party, they like to give them a lot of 1/day or at will Spell-like powers to frustrate players that fight them, but none so much that it makes the monster too difficult.

When PC's assume a monster race they might get something like charm person at will, for example. This ability is far more useful to a PC than it could ever be to a monster. Thus we have LA, a system that weakens the monster if it's a PC, but doesn't bother it if it isn't.

The problem I have with LA's is they are set artificially high, so that players will pick normal core races instead of something more interesting. Usually I tell my players that I will cut down their LA to something reasonable if they want to be a monster (usually in exchange for a couple more extraneous Sp abilities), but they have to keep their monster HD, because that's the price of being a monster. Plus, I always allow Reducing Level Adjustments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) per UA. That's the best solution I've been able to come up with without breaking the d20 system.

[RandomFellow]

I don't really like how they currently have the LA system set up.

ECL = Class Levels + Racial HD + LA

Your base assumption is in error.

Racial HD != ECL.
EL (of a single mob) = CR = Monster Base CR + PC Levels



So that means a Minotaur (with no class levels) would be an ECL 8 (0 levels + 6 HD + 2 LA). The creature is rated at a CR 4 :smalleek: Any level 8 human fighter has a CR 8. Why such the large discrepancy? Should a player really be "punished" so much, just because they chose a "powerful" race?

A more exaggerated example: the gold dragon wyrmling. ECL 12, with no class levels (8 HD + 4 LA). CR 5. So, even though a player would have to wait until level 12 to play the creature, it would pose as much of a threat or challenge as a human character seven levels lower.

Other than the fact your base assumption is wrong, you are pretty much correct that the LA/CR/EL system is terribly screwed up.



Is there a fix for this? :smallconfused: Would it be too unbalanced just to scrap the level adjustments, and say you can play a creature at its CR? Thus the Minotaur is playable at level 6 (classes taken thereafter), and the wyrmling available at level 5.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Personally, I'd just run a LA/NPC Class // PC Class gestalt game. Their are certain CR'd mobs that (if run by a player) get unbalanced really fast.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm
Anyone who wouldn't take that for 2 level loss is insane. 2 spells/round for 2 class levels? Plus feats, HD, etc? Hell yes.

That said, with a heavy dose of common sense (e.g. no Chokers) your plan would work.

[Chronos]

Incidentally, some RHD are pretty good. d12 HP, full BAB, 6+int skills, and all good saves? It's not wizard, but it's not dog food either (Well, most dogs don't eat dragon...).Outsider isn't bad, either. It's a smaller HD than the dragon (d8 instead of d12), but it still has the full BAB, all good saves, and as many skill points as a rogue. A lot of skill monkey builds wouldn't be hurt at all by a few HD of Outsider or Dragon.

EDIT:

Racial HD != ECL.
EL (of a single mob) = CR = Monster Base CR + PC LevelsEL != ECL. ECL is the equivalent character level, and is equal to total HD (including both racial and class level HD) plus level adjustment, as he said.

[Fax Celestis]

Your base assumption is in error.

Racial HD != ECL.
EL (of a single mob) = CR = Monster Base CR + PC Levels

I'm not sure what you're saying here. ECL (Estimated Character Level) is your total HD plus your LA. That includes your RHD. Of course, both LA and ECL have no bearing from a DM perspective: only CR does.

EL, on the other hand, is Encounter Level. Different acronym.

[AslanCross]

Your base assumption is in error.

Racial HD != ECL.
EL (of a single mob) = CR = Monster Base CR + PC Levels


Err, I don't think he was talking about Encounter Level, but Effective Class Level. Which really is Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment + whatever Class Levels the monster may have.

[Gaiwecoor]

Your base assumption is in error.

Racial HD != ECL.
EL (of a single mob) = CR = Monster Base CR + PC Levels

....

How am I misconstruing this, then?

To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. (Link) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#levelAdjustmentandEffectiveCha racterLevel)


On a side note, I think tyckspoon might be onto something... call ECL = Class Levels + Greatest of {CR, RHD, LA}.

[Yeril]

I think I'm a little confused on what you're saying, there. Maybe I'm reading it in the wrong context. I was meaning (concerning intra-party balance), the character with the LA is significantly weaker than the player sitting next to them.

It depends.

a Feral Halfogre Barbarian 8 is MUCH more powerful than a normal human barbarian 10.

The whole +10 Str, +6 Con, Fast Healing, Pounce, and a whole lot of other abilities and buckets natural armor compared to 2 levels of barbarian.

[RandomFellow]

Err, I don't think he was talking about Encounter Level, but Effective Class Level. Which really is Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment + whatever Class Levels the monster may have.

+ the two posts above.


Does anyone read the monster manual? 0o

EL (of single mook encounter) = CR = ECL (in theory, in practice it doesn't work but that is what the books say should be true.)

1 Human Barbarian 10 = ECL 10 = EL 10 = CR 10
1 CR 10 Mook = EL 10
1 CR 20 Mook = EL 20

Now lets look at advancing by HD:
Dragon, Outsider = +1 per 2HD
Animal, magical beast, monstrous humanoid = +1 per 3HD

I'm not typing out a couple pages in the DMG&MM to make my point.
Monster Manual, Page 294.
DMG, Page 48

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps my point of view is so weird no one else gets it. But if 2 HD of Outsider or Dragon is supposed to be equal to 1 CR. Then racial HD + LA is just no.

If it actually says somewhere ECL = Racial HD + LA, I probably forgot it existed because it doesn't mesh with what is written elsewhere.

----
Apparently my assertion that I forgot it existed because it doesn't mesh with what is written elsewhere is correct. =0

[waynethegame]

Should a player really be "punished" so much, just because they chose a "powerful" race?

That's exactly the reason LA is the way it is. I forget the post, but the guy who wrote Savage Species basically said WotC told him to make playing monster races suck, to keep players with "normal" races and punish them if they wanted to deviate.

[martyboy74]

a Feral Halfogre Barbarian 8 is MUCH more powerful than a normal human barbarian 10.

Both Feral and Half-Ogre are considered to be overpowered, so that's not really a good example.

[The_Snark]

It depends.

a Feral Halfogre Barbarian 8 is MUCH more powerful than a normal human barbarian 10.

The whole +10 Str, +6 Con, Fast Healing, Pounce, and a whole lot of other abilities and buckets natural armor compared to 2 levels of barbarian.

That is because both Feral and Half-Ogre are two of the more absurd template/races to exist. Half-Ogre, by the way, was fixed in Races of Destiny- it's now +2 LA. Feral simply shouldn't be allowed at its current LA. But that particular broken example doesn't fix the system.

It does sort of depend, though. Some monsters have too much LA, particularly given the amount/type of racial HD they have. Some work just fine; a succubus can be a perfectly playable PC, as can an ethergaunt.

I generally liked Savage Species (despite bad editing and some bad balancing), but the thing I disagreed with most was its system of determining LA. When giving a monster LA, you shouldn't just be looking at its abilities—you should also be looking at its racial HD and whether it will be able to advance at all. Are its abilities going to synergize at all with a PC class (as in the case of monsters who are focused around one area- i.e. things with innate spellcasting, high Str, or very good stealth abilities)? Or are they just going to stay as they are, like a poorly synergizing multiclass character?

If it's the latter, and with many monsters it is, the creature probably deserves a lower LA than it otherwise would.

Tricky system, and I think the best way to deal with it is on an individual basis. Turning a monster into a class progression as in Savage Species can also help get a perspective on how a monster stands up to an equivalent amount of PC class levels, too.

[greenknight]

I think the LA system is fine if you want to create physical combatants, but it does seem to break down for skillmonkeys and spellcasters. As for CR, the idea is good, but the implementation is often horribly flawed, and it doesn't scale all that well when you don't have a 4 person party. You certainly shouldn't play monsters with their LA equal to their CR, because many of those monsters have a relatively low CR for their power. Dragons are a classic example of that, as are many undead - at least, the ones suitable to become PCs.

[AslanCross]

Does anyone read the monster manual? 0o

EL (of single mook encounter) = CR = ECL (in theory, in practice it doesn't work but that is what the books say should be true.)

1 Human Barbarian 10 = ECL 10 = EL 10 = CR 10
1 CR 10 Mook = EL 10
1 CR 20 Mook = EL 20

Now lets look at advancing by HD:
Dragon, Outsider = +1 per 2HD
Animal, magical beast, monstrous humanoid = +1 per 3HD

I'm not typing out a couple pages in the DMG&MM to make my point.
Monster Manual, Page 294.
DMG, Page 48

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps my point of view is so weird no one else gets it. But if 2 HD of Outsider or Dragon is supposed to be equal to 1 CR. Then racial HD + LA is just no.

If it actually says somewhere ECL = Racial HD + LA, I probably forgot it existed because it doesn't mesh with what is written elsewhere.

----
Apparently my assertion that I forgot it existed because it doesn't mesh with what is written elsewhere is correct. =0

Err, now I'm confused. As far as I can tell, CR and ECL are really very different things. While they involve the same variables, they are not calculated the same way.

Bugbear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm):
Racial Hit Dice: 3
Level Adjustment: +1
CR: 2
ECL: 4

Vampire: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) Lv 8 Human Fighter
Racial hit dice: 0
Class Level hit dice: 8
Level Adjustment: +8
CR: (Class Level) 8+ (Template) 2 = 10
ECL: (Class Levels + Template LA) 8+8=16

Gnoll: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnoll.htm)
Racial hit dice: 2
Level Adjustment: +1
CR: 1
ECL: 3

Vampire 5th Level Gnoll Fighter:
Racial Hit Dice: 2
Level Adjustment: +3 (+1 racial, +2 vampire template)
CR: (Base+PC Class Levels + Vampire) 1+5+2=8
ECL: 2+5+8=15

Btw: Page 294 of the Monster Manual talks about advancing monsters. It's not about assigning base CR, which is a different matter altogether. It's completely nebulous and subjective. Furthermore, CR is only directly affected by class levels when played by a PC. ECL is for player use, not DM use.

[Ulzgoroth]

RandomFellow, you are making the correct observation that, using the ECL rules, a character with LA and/or RHD will usually have a CR a lot lower than their ECL. Probably, though the fact that they'll have PC WBL for their ECL, and there's no exact calculation of how much that's worth on the CR.

Despite this, you are instructed to play monsters as characters with their RHD+LA. This is presumably overcompensation. And fear of the appallingly weak balance work that goes into monster manuals coming back to bite them, perhaps.