Divine Metamagic, Dweomkeeper and Different Turning Pool Questions

[incog64]

I am trying to build DMM based Dweomkeeper with 3 turning pools. Summarized below is the build through Level 8.

Race: Silverbrow Human
Deity: IO
Charisma: 18+3 bonus
Feats: The usual suspects including Extra Turning.

L1: Cloistered Cleric Destroy Dead ACF
L2: Dread necromancer for arcane casting and Rebuke Undead
L3-L5: Cloistered Cleric
L6-7: Dweomkeeper
L8: Sacred Excorist: Turn Undead

This gives me three turning pools, correct?

Extra Turning modifies each pool, correct?

Does the Charisma modifier modify each pool?

Thanks for your help in advance.

[Anthrowhale]

I believe that's "yes", "yes", and "yes".

Note that if you are willing to live with 2 turning pools, you can avoid slowing your spell access via Cloistered Cleric[Spell,Magic,Knowledge]. Spell gives access to Anyspell which allows you to cast an arcane spell, sufficient for Dweomerkeeper.

[incog64]

I believe that's "yes", "yes", and "yes".

Note that if you are willing to live with 2 turning pools, you can avoid slowing your spell access via Cloistered Cleric[Spell,Magic,Knowledge]. Spell gives access to Anyspell which allows you to cast an arcane spell, sufficient for Dweomerkeeper.

Dread Necromancer is a an Arcane Caster, so that should qualify on its own, correct?


Spellcasting: A dread necromancer casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the dread necromancer's spell list (see page 87). Like a sorcerer, she can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. When a dread necromancer gains access to a new level of spells, she automatically knows all the spells for that level given on the dread necromancer's spell list. Dread necromancers also have the option of adding to their existing spell list through their advanced learning ability as they increase in level (see below).

Thanks. So, just with one extra turning and my Charisma Modifier, I'd have 30 Turns as below.

Destroy, 10 =3 base + 3 Char bonus + 4 Extra Turning

Rebuke, 10 =3 base + 3 Char bonus + 4 Extra Turning

Turn, 10 =3 base + 3 Char bonus + 4 Extra Turning

Thanks

[Anthrowhale]

Dread Necromancer is a an Arcane Caster, so that should qualify on its own, correct?

Yes, you qualify fine. The drawback is that at half the levels you'll lack access to spells available via the other path.

[incog64]

Yes, you qualify fine. The drawback is that at half the levels you'll lack access to spells available via the other path.

I am relatively new to DND, can you elaborate?

Thanks.

[Paragon]

I am relatively new to DND, can you elaborate?

Thanks.

What Anthro is saying is that, while you increase you "arcane casting" side, the divine one is wasting away, waiting for you to go into Dweomerkeeper to increase it again.

What he is proposing is what we call "cheese" ; a way to obtain something you want by bending the use of something else in the game. Here, using the Anyspell spell from the Spell domain, lets you prepare wizard spells which, if your DM allows, can be considered as an "arcane spell".
It is a completely fine pov to say that while it might be a wizard spell it remains a divine class casting it, making it a divine spell so check with DM.

If the ruling is in your favor, you can skip Dread Necro entirely and go from Cleric into Dweomerkeeper thus not losing any divine caster levels

[Anthrowhale]

What he is proposing is what we call "cheese" ; a way to obtain something you want by bending the use of something else in the game. Here, using the Anyspell spell from the Spell domain, lets you prepare wizard spells which, if your DM allows, can be considered as an "arcane spell".

I don't think there's any controversy here by either RAW or RAI. Anyspell says:

you channel divine power through your mind...into the potential to cast one arcane spell.
and

When you cast the arcane spell, it works just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level...
I don't see how you can be more explicit that the cast spell is arcane.

(I'm of course not disputing that a DM can just disallow this entry into Dweomerkeeper. Houserules are totally fine and reasonable.)

[incog64]

What Anthro is saying is that, while you increase you "arcane casting" side, the divine one is wasting away, waiting for you to go into Dweomerkeeper to increase it again.

What he is proposing is what we call "cheese" ; a way to obtain something you want by bending the use of something else in the game. Here, using the Anyspell spell from the Spell domain, lets you prepare wizard spells which, if your DM allows, can be considered as an "arcane spell".
It is a completely fine pov to say that while it might be a wizard spell it remains a divine class casting it, making it a divine spell so check with DM.

If the ruling is in your favor, you can skip Dread Necro entirely and go from Cleric into Dweomerkeeper thus not losing any divine caster levels

I thought it had something with losing a cleric level. I don't think its that big of a deal for this build as I get the 2nd turning pool much sooner and I am only 1 caster level behind and I ultimately get 3 pools. Seems like a fair trade to me.

[Chronos]

Also keep in mind that DMM won't work on your Dread Necromancer spells, unless you find some way to make them count as divine (e.g., Southern Magician or Alternate Source Spell).

[incog64]

Also keep in mind that DMM won't work on your Dread Necromancer spells, unless you find some way to make them count as divine (e.g., Southern Magician or Alternate Source Spell).

That's fine, I am only really taking it for Rebuke and the Arcane requirement. With only 1st level spells its probably not worth thinking about DMM.

[Darg]

Note* separate turning pools is not a concept used by the rules. The PHB even has additional rules for the special attack separate from the ability description. There is no evidence even a paladin 4/cleric 1 would have 2 pools. I mention this so you make sure to have permission from your DM before the build gets neutered by it not being a legal concept.

[Paragon]

I don't think there's any controversy here by either RAW or RAI.

I don't see how you can be more explicit that the cast spell is arcane.


Thanks for the correction, that's really not how I remembered it.
Then again, I'm using the Godsblood Spellthief feat to get the Spell domain so it's a bit funky haha

[Chronos]

Quoth Darg:

There is no evidence even a paladin 4/cleric 1 would have 2 pools.
A paladin 4/cleric 1 would not have two pools. They'd add their effective turning levels together, because it's the same ability. But you can't do that between (say) Dread Necromancer and Sacred Exorcist, because they're two different abilities: Dread Necromancer rebukes, while Sacred Exorcist turns.

[Darg]

A paladin 4/cleric 1 would not have two pools. They'd add their effective turning levels together, because it's the same ability. But you can't do that between (say) Dread Necromancer and Sacred Exorcist, because they're two different abilities: Dread Necromancer rebukes, while Sacred Exorcist turns.

According to the special attack description (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead) it's the same pool between turning and rebuke; otherwise you don't get rebuke attempts. According to the cleric class description (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) you only get attempts to turn, not rebuke, if they aren't the same pool. Remember, turning is also the colloquial term for both actual turning or destroying and rebuking or commanding. It's all considered the same thing.

[incog64]

According to the special attack description (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead) it's the same pool between turning and rebuke; otherwise you don't get rebuke attempts. According to the cleric class description (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) you only get attempts to turn, not rebuke, if they aren't the same pool. Remember, turning is also the colloquial term for both actual turning or destroying and rebuking or commanding. It's all considered the same thing.

Please be more specific, I read the link, quickly so I may have missed it but there is nothing about sharing the same pool. The link speaks about positive and negative energy and never mentions the concept of pools.

Also, in the feat Extra Turning, see below, it references the concept of different pools.

Benefit
Each time you take this feat, you can use your ability to turn or rebuke creatures four more times per day than normal. If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature (such as a good-aligned cleric with access to the Fire domain, who can turn undead and water creatures and can also rebuke fire creatures), each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day. So even if I don't take Destroy Undead, I can take Rebuke Dragons.

Furthermore, in this build as Rebuke Undead comes from the Dreadnecromancer class, cleric rules would not apply. The only constraint from this class is that he cant be any good alignment, so the build needs tweeking if I am looking for a third pool.

[incog64]

Note that if you are willing to live with 2 turning pools, you can avoid slowing your spell access via Cloistered Cleric[Spell,Magic,Knowledge]. Spell gives access to Anyspell which allows you to cast an arcane spell, sufficient for Dweomerkeeper.

We are playing in Greyhawk which I don't think has the spell domain. Also my DM won't allow anyspell to qualify for Dweomkeeper.

Thanks.

[Darg]

Please be more specific, I read the link, quickly so I may have missed it but there is nothing about sharing the same pool. The link speaks about positive and negative energy and never mentions the concept of pools.

Also, in the feat Extra Turning, see below, it references the concept of different pools.

Benefit
Each time you take this feat, you can use your ability to turn or rebuke creatures four more times per day than normal. If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature (such as a good-aligned cleric with access to the Fire domain, who can turn undead and water creatures and can also rebuke fire creatures), each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day. So even if I don't take Destroy Undead, I can take Rebuke Dragons.

Furthermore, in this build as Rebuke Undead comes from the Dreadnecromancer class, cleric rules would not apply. The only constraint from this class is that he cant be any good alignment, so the build needs tweeking if I am looking for a third pool.

The feat is separating them between the ability types. The cleric in the example gets +4 uses to their turn or rebuke undead ability and +4 to their turn water or rebuke fire creatures ability. Dread necromancer tells you to reference the cleric ability. It does not say that are considered a cleric of any level. If it is not meant to be the same ability, you would always have a cleric level of 0. For comparison see the blackguard.

The reason I pointed you to the special attack and the class description is that they both only grant a number of uses to turning attempts, not rebuking attempts. If they aren't the same pool then you don't ever receive a number of rebuking attempts.

Again, this wasn't meant to be an argument. I was just pointing out that a DM might not see that different classes do not grant different pools except when they are different abilities like the fire domain power.

[incog64]

The feat is separating them between the ability types. The cleric in the example gets +4 uses to their turn or rebuke undead ability and +4 to their turn water or rebuke fire creatures ability. Dread necromancer tells you to reference the cleric ability. It does not say that are considered a cleric of any level. If it is not meant to be the same ability, you would always have a cleric level of 0. For comparison see the blackguard.

The reason I pointed you to the special attack and the class description is that they both only grant a number of uses to turning attempts, not rebuking attempts. If they aren't the same pool then you don't ever receive a number of rebuking attempts.

Again, this wasn't meant to be an argument. I was just pointing out that a DM might not see that different classes do not grant different pools except when they are different abilities like the fire domain power.

That's fair but turn undead and rebuke are absolutely different abilities as true cleric you can only have one or the other. Regardless, I appreciate your perspective.