Does this monster seem reasonable?

[ptownazkikr]

So I just upgraded my first monster as the DM for an upcoming 3.5 dnd game, and while this particular monster won't appear for quite some time it seemed very strong to me (coming from 5e, but have played 3.5). Does this seem like ballpark the right power level for CR 11 in this edition?

War Hulk 4 Fighter 2 Troll
Size/Type: Large Giant
Hit Dice: 6d8+2d10+4d12+(8*12) - (160 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 28 (-1 size, +4 Dex, +5 natural, +7 armor, +3 deflection), touch 16, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+23
Attack: Claw +20 melee (1d6+15) or boulder +18 ranged (2d8+13)
Full Attack: 2 claws +20 melee (1d6+15) and bite +15 melee (1d6+8); or boulder +18/+13 ranged (2d8+13)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rend 2d6+19 (STR*1.5)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 90 ft., low-light vision, regeneration 5, scent, No time to think, Great Swing, Mighty Rock Throwing, Mighty Swing, Fire Resistance 10 (Armor)
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +10, Will +7
Abilities: Str 37, Dex 18, Con 26, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 4
Skills: Jump +18 (7+STR-armor), Climb +19 (8+STR-armor)
Feats: Iron Will, Track, Quick Draw, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative
CR: 11
Possessions (88k gp worth): Boulders, +2 Fire Resistance Mithril Chainmail (30,300 gp, -2 armor penalty, +5 armor bonus, 4 max dex, no speed penalty), +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists (24k, +2 to natural weapon attack and damage rolls), +3 Ring of Protection (18k, +3 deflection), +3 Cloak of Resistance (9k, +3 resistance bonus to saves), 9 potions of Cure Serious Wounds (6750gp, heals for 3d8+5 each).

[ptownazkikr]

Actually since gear is based on ECL it should have 260k gp to spend instead of just 88k. Even with 88 it seems powerful though.

[Crake]

Actually since gear is based on ECL it should have 260k gp to spend instead of just 88k. Even with 88 it seems powerful though.

Npcs use different wealth by level though, a 16th level npc only gets 77k worth of equipment

[shadowseve]

What’s the party comp and about what level are they going to meet said troll?

[remetagross]

I have played for quite a bit around ECL 11 as a Ruby Knight Vindicator, with a Warblade, a blaster Sorcerer and a Barbarian. All moderately optimized and using synergistic magic items/strategies/maneuvers. This monster would have given us a reasonable run for our money.

A party of 4 unoptimized guys will get utterly trounced though. This is a solid ECL 11 monster. By the way, its Will save DC is way too low, it's going to be wrecked by the first Charm Monster that comes by. Unless you've set it that way on purpose, so that is has a inbuilt weak point.

[Beni-Kujaku]

That seems to be the right ballpark indeed, but the gear is probably too much if the party loots the corpse afterwards. A Twelfth level NPC has only 27 k gp, and even then it would all on its own be worth a good part of what the party would gain going from level 11 to 12. I would personally reduce the gear to 25k gp, keeping only a regular mithral chainmail and the amulet of mighty fists. It won't change how the monster is played, but would make it slightly less tough (troll regeneration is already a bit annoying to deal with anyway, and having resistance to fire doesn't change that), for a decent CR 11 still. Just don't forget to make it use Power Attack to make use of its good to-hit bonus.

[ptownazkikr]

Npcs use different wealth by level though, a 16th level npc only gets 77k worth of equipment

I had no idea. Thanks

[ptownazkikr]

What’s the party comp and about what level are they going to meet said troll?

At the moment they're a party of 5 at level 1. This is just me getting a feel for how to alter existing stat blocks and I though a War Hulk troll would be cool. They'll almost certainly eventually fight it but I don't want it to just stomp them. I've run high level 5e and these stats just look intimidating, but I know 3.5 has higher to hits and saves.

[ptownazkikr]

I have played for quite a bit around ECL 11 as a Ruby Knight Vindicator, with a Warblade, a blaster Sorcerer and a Barbarian. All moderately optimized and using synergistic magic items/strategies/maneuvers. This monster would have given us a reasonable run for our money.

A party of 4 unoptimized guys will get utterly trounced though. This is a solid ECL 11 monster. By the way, its Will save DC is way too low, it's going to be wrecked by the first Charm Monster that comes by. Unless you've set it that way on purpose, so that is has a inbuilt weak point.

I was not exactly trying to give it a weakness (but its fine if it has one), I was more trying to "by the book" level up a monster. It's base Will save sucks, even with the Iron Will feat. Not sure if just fudging the numbers is a normal 3.5 thing or if in doing so I should somehow tie that to a higher CR, if I wanted to remove that weakness.

[ptownazkikr]

That seems to be the right ballpark indeed, but the gear is probably too much if the party loots the corpse afterwards. A Twelfth level NPC has only 27 k gp, and even then it would all on its own be worth a good part of what the party would gain going from level 11 to 12. I would personally reduce the gear to 25k gp, keeping only a regular mithral chainmail and the amulet of mighty fists. It won't change how the monster is played, but would make it slightly less tough (troll regeneration is already a bit annoying to deal with anyway, and having resistance to fire doesn't change that), for a decent CR 11 still. Just don't forget to make it use Power Attack to make use of its good to-hit bonus.

It's gear seemed like a lot to me too, but with my mistaken mark of 88k gp that kinda wealth stretches a long ways, as will the 77k gp it should have been. The theoretical downside for the pcs is the armor itself is the best thing it's got, and it will be large sized, so while worth more money it would be harder to use. I'm trying to do the book because I haven't messed with 3.5 monsters before this, but consequences of lootable gear is definitely something to consider that idk if the rules do.

[liquidformat]

I was not exactly trying to give it a weakness (but its fine if it has one), I was more trying to "by the book" level up a monster. It's base Will save sucks, even with the Iron Will feat. Not sure if just fudging the numbers is a normal 3.5 thing or if in doing so I should somehow tie that to a higher CR, if I wanted to remove that weakness.

So if you would like to shore up the will save you can take endurance + Steadfast Determination. Steadfast Determination makes it so you don't fail fort saves when you roll a 1 and lets you replace wis with your con mod on will saves. It is also pretty thematic for a troll even more so for a war hulk troll. I would personally replace track (which isn't even used) and Greater Cleave which would give you a +9 bonus to Will saves.

Some other fun classes you could look at for your trolls are hulking hurler and Frenzied Berserker. If you want to be mean you could always look at Soul Eater.

[Maat Mons]

If I were this troll, I’d take the Steadfast Determination feat (Player's Handbook II, p83). It lets you use Con instead of Wis for Will saves. It also makes it so you no longer automatically fail Fort saves on a natural 1. The downside is you need the Endurance feat to meet the prerequisite. Actually, scratch that, I’d take the Deformity (Madness) feat (Elder Evils, p13). It’s the same feat cost, but just gives immunity to mind-affecting effects. That covers a pretty big chunk of the most dangerous Will saves. Ninja'ed

If you’re worried about making sure the loot is usable by your players, Magic Item Compendium, p234 says you can add energy resistance onto any existing magic item, as long as it occupies the body, ring, shoulder, or torso slot. I’d recommend adding fire resistance 5 (+4,000 gp) to a Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000 gp) and describe it as some cool red dragon themed thing. Remember that, according to Sandstorm, any quantity of fire resistance gives the benefits of the warm half of Endure Elements. This makes, in my opinion, for kind of a fun and flavorful item, which is cheap enough and useful enough that one of the players might decide to keep it. Later, they can pay to have the upgraded, if they’ve really taken a liking to it.

Alternately, an Enduring Amulet (Magic Item Compendium, p97) costs only 1,500 gp, gives both halves of Endure Elements, and can be activated 3/day as an immediate action to gain fire and cold resistance 10 for one round. A fantastic deal, in my opinion. It’s right up there with Ring of Sustenance and Handy Haversack on my list of nice-to-haves for all characters. Using those same rules from Magic Item Compendium, p234, you can add bonuses to Con or Wis to it, at such time as you need those things.

[Gorthawar]

I've never quite understood the rules on wbl for NPCs but for me it doesn't make sense that a standard troll has no equipment in line with the monster manual but adding 1 level of fighter should give them the ECL10 npc wealth. As such I tend to equip monsters with class levels in line with the wbl for it's class levels only. So a troll fighter 1 would have 900gp worth of equipment and a troll fighter 2 / warhulk 6 would have 5,600gp.

Edit: When you compare your improved troll to an elder earth elemental which is also cr11 and has a similar combat style as a beat stick your troll is in the right ballpark I'd say.

[rel]

At the moment they're a party of 5 at level 1. This is just me getting a feel for how to alter existing stat blocks and I though a War Hulk troll would be cool. They'll almost certainly eventually fight it but I don't want it to just stomp them. I've run high level 5e and these stats just look intimidating, but I know 3.5 has higher to hits and saves.

Wait till the party gets a few levels and see how they're builds and tactics shape up. It's a powerful bruiser, so trivialized with certain tactics such as flight, illusions, targeting the will save, etc. But it has a lot of HP and some very damaging attacks. An unprepared party, or one avoiding the cheesier powers is going to get flattened.