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Caxton
2007-12-08, 07:51 PM
Actually no i am not. But I want to be. Unfortunately, I looked in the mm and there is not a block saying succubi as player characters. However, they DO have a LA. Help?

Reinboom
2007-12-08, 07:54 PM
Take their stats, round down to an even number.
The succubus is Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 26
So, rounded down to an even number:
Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 26
Then minus 10 to get their bonuses.

Str +2, Dex +2, Con +2, Int +6, Wis +4, Cha +16

They gain all their abilities and qualities, and are proficient with anything in their description.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-12-08, 07:55 PM
Succubi and other demons really aren't meant to be player characters. They have some rather powerful abilities, and that's why there isn't the option to play as one. That said, there's a section in the book Savage Species about such situations, except that the Succubus is a 12 level monster class.

Caxton
2007-12-08, 07:59 PM
So I can't be a succubus, but I can be a mindflayer, or a rakshasa, or a stone giant, or a (albeit with draconomicon) a DRAGON!?!?

Korias
2007-12-08, 08:03 PM
If your planning on playing this kind of character, remember that your going to have a bunch of spell like abilities, but are going to not be allowed unless you get a DM OK or your character creation ECL is above 12.

By all means, GO AHEAD! The game is meant to have fun. Talk with your DM, make plan for your character, and have fun.

Just make sure he/she's OK with you playing a character that oozes sexual attraction and will probably have a hard time getting quests because of that huge charisma modifier.

Caxton
2007-12-08, 08:05 PM
actually, we specifically HAVE to be something with an LA of +3 or higher. So i though succubus would be cool.

Reinboom
2007-12-08, 08:06 PM
actually, we specifically HAVE to be something with an LA of +3 or higher. So i though succubus would be cool.

Mind, you will be level 12.

You also must have the hit die as well.

tyckspoon
2007-12-08, 08:08 PM
So I can't be a succubus, but I can be a mindflayer, or a rakshasa, or a stone giant, or a (albeit with draconomicon) a DRAGON!?!?

If it has a given level adjustment, you can play it as a PC. The 'X thing as player characters' blocks are just to make the process easier for the races and creatures the designers thought would be most desired as PCs. Generate your stats using the stat modifiers as explained by SweetRein, copy down all the special qualities, special attacks, and spell-like abilities, and start playing. You are now playing a succubus, congratulations.

Caxton
2007-12-08, 08:11 PM
My DM says the above method doesn't make sense because the drow have a block that doesn't add up. They get +2 str + 2dex +2 int. But in the player block they get +2 dex +2 cha +2 int and -2 con.

tyckspoon
2007-12-08, 08:14 PM
My DM says the above method doesn't make sense because the drow have a block that doesn't add up. They get +2 str + 2dex +2 int. But in the player block they get +2 dex +2 cha +2 int and -2 con.


The drow warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.

The normal method of determining a creature's stat mods assumes the stat line is all 10s and 11s. It doesn't work if a particular example was built with a different array.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-08, 08:14 PM
My DM says the above method doesn't make sense because the drow have a block that doesn't add up. They get +2 str + 2dex +2 int. But in the player block they get +2 dex +2 cha +2 int and -2 con.

That'd be because the model Drow is using the Exceptional array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), not the Normal array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10) like most monsters do. Since the Drow entry includes racial modifiers, those override the stat block description.

Korias
2007-12-08, 08:15 PM
My DM says the above method doesn't make sense because the drow have a block that doesn't add up. They get +2 str + 2dex +2 int. But in the player block they get +2 dex +2 cha +2 int and -2 con.

Thats because those were the bonuses set into a stat block. Take the normal stats (There in the DM somewhere...), and then input those bonuses as racial. You then get those bonuses to those stats. (The two eights going Con and Str)

Edit: Ninja'd. Twice.

Caxton
2007-12-08, 08:17 PM
Ok my DM says that makes sense. Thanks alot guys!!!!!

Chronos
2007-12-08, 08:17 PM
Take their stats, round down to an even number.
The succubus is Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 26
So, rounded down to an even number:
Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 26
Then minus 10 to get their bonuses.That assumes that the MM entries are generated with a starting array of all 10s and 11s. But all of the "normal" races, with an "X as characters" section, seem to assume a starting array of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. To compensate for this, you probably want to decrease your two highest adjustments, and increase your two lowest adjustments.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-12-08, 08:18 PM
My DM says the above method doesn't make sense because the drow have a block that doesn't add up. They get +2 str + 2dex +2 int. But in the player block they get +2 dex +2 cha +2 int and -2 con.

That's because

The drow warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.

It happens with MM entries that have class levels; gotta watch for that line. And you'd know to watch for it, if you read the following:


Ability Scores for Monster PCs

While a monsters statistics give the ability scores for a typical creature of a certain kind, any “monster” creature that becomes an adventurer is definitely not typical. Therefore, when creating a PC from a creature, check to see if the creature’s entry has any ability scores of 10 or higher. If so, for each score, subtract 10 (if the score is even) or 11 (if the score is odd) to get the creature’s modifier for that ability based on its race or kind. Generate the character’s ability scores as normal, then add the racial ability modifiers to get their ability scores.

Note: Some monsters have base ability scores other than 10 and 11. If alternate scores were used this will be indicated in the monster entry. Also, some monsters that make good PCs have their racial ability modifiers and other traits already listed in their monster entry.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-12-08, 09:01 PM
That said, there's a section in the book Savage Species about such situations, except that the Succubus is a 12 level monster class.

I'd suggest making a Lesser Succubus. Lower the stat bonuses, get rid of most of the SR/DR/resistances, remove Greater Teleport & Summoning, don't use the racial HD, keep Alter Self as your starting ability, gain Detect Thoughts as an SLA at 3rd level, gain Suggestion as an SLA at 5th level, and get rid of the negative energy drain completely. That would give you a suitable succubus without wasting 12 levels doing so.

Draz74
2007-12-08, 09:28 PM
I think a Nymph would be more fun than a Succubus. Still plenty of potential for sexiness, but less shoehorned into, "I have to be a slut and be eeeeevil about it." Plus cooler abilities IMHO. Unfortunately it counts as an ECL 13 character before adding class levels, which is even higher than the Succubus. (Something wrong with that if you ask me. Nymph a more "exotic" character than Succubus? Yeah right.)

Korias
2007-12-08, 09:35 PM
I'd suggest making a Lesser Succubus. Lower the stat bonuses, get rid of most of the SR/DR/resistances, remove Greater Teleport & Summoning, don't use the racial HD, keep Alter Self as your starting ability, gain Detect Thoughts as an SLA at 3rd level, gain Suggestion as an SLA at 5th level, and get rid of the negative energy drain completely. That would give you a suitable succubus without wasting 12 levels doing so.

But isn't the drain a main point of the Succubus? Perhaps a version where the character must initiate the drain, and perhaps coming in at level 10 or so, but still...

Kizara
2007-12-08, 10:10 PM
You could play a half-fiend, and convince your DM to let you move around the ability scores (+4 str becomes +4 cha, etc), and repick your SLAs to things more charm and seduction oriented.

Some homebrew you might appreciate:

New skill: Seduction

This skill represents both your ability to entice and manipulate others sexually as well as your sexual performance.

1) Gives and recieves synergy from Bluff. Gives synergy to Diplomancy ONLY if you don't have one from bluff.

2) replaces Bluff as the skill used for these actions, and does alot better job of it.

3) Vampires, succubuses, erineyes, nymph and other such creatures get a +8 racial bonus to Seduction.

Example DCs:

10 Effectively flirt
15 Memorable kiss
20 Orgasim (lower DC by 5 to get a male to orgasm)
25 Memorable Orgasim
30 Intense Orgasim
35 Multiple Orgasims
50 Achieve Memorable Orgasim with just a kiss


Circumstance modifiers:

DC 20 Use Rope check grants +2 if they are 'into that sorta thing'.
DC 20 Intimidate check grants +2 if they are "into that sorta thing'.
DC 35 Diplomancy check to convince someone otherwise not to be "into that sorta thing".
Has a feature or attribute subject finds exceptionally desirable (fetish): +2 - +4.

Is a race or kind that is offensive to the subject: -2 to -8.
Is a very different or alien race or kind (whale to minotaur) -20 or higher.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-12-08, 10:16 PM
Wow. Kizara, I can't decide if that's offensive or just clueless, but it's impressively whatever it is.

Kizara
2007-12-08, 10:19 PM
Wow. Kizara, I can't decide if that's offensive or just clueless, but it's impressively whatever it is.

Remember, D&D is a heroic, abstract system and this skill is meant to follow the same lines.

That being said, it's written from a male perspective (mine) and yours would be welcome as to why its so terribly 'clueless' or 'offensive'.

It certinally isn't meant to somehow be derogatory or offensive.

Korias
2007-12-08, 10:22 PM
I will say, that a memorable Kiss is not on par with a Male Orgasm. However, I would also like to state that there IS a skill called seduction in exsistance. I think its in Complete Scoundrel, or something.
Now, I also want to state that there are somethings such as this that might bring this thread down.

EL HUEVADOR
2007-12-08, 10:24 PM
words

I'm afraid they've already beaten you to it. (http://www.amazon.com/Book-Erotic-Fantasy-Gwendolyn-Kestrel/dp/097420451X)

Kizara
2007-12-08, 10:28 PM
I'm afraid they've already beaten you to it. (http://www.amazon.com/Book-Erotic-Fantasy-Gwendolyn-Kestrel/dp/097420451X)

Heh... INDEED they have...

Nevermind my feeble attempts at homebrew then, go have a look at that book that is written and published by teams of people and has far more content then my little skill could ever encompass.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-12-08, 10:43 PM
Remember, D&D is a heroic, abstract system and this skill is meant to follow the same lines.

That being said, it's written from a male perspective (mine) and yours would be welcome as to why its so terribly 'clueless' or 'offensive'.

It certinally isn't meant to somehow be derogatory or offensive.


Well, for starters, you're giving a memorable kiss and a male orgasm the same DC. Think about what that implies.

Some men have difficulty getting off with a partner. Some women can have mutliple orgasms in a few minutes, while others are incapable of having one at all. Then there's the nonsense about intense and multiple orgasms, as if the latter were somehow the next level from the former.

And even a DC of 50 seems ridiculous for the making someone orgasm with a kiss, considering that it's as impossible as, say, passing through a Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#passthroughWallofForce).


And then there's the fact that seduction and sexual prowess are separate things. Seduction is about making someone want you; it doesn't guarantee that you can actually satisfy. It certainly has nothing to do with the ability to give a given person (whether they have them all they time or are physically incapable of it) multiple orgasms.


It borders on offensive because it displays cluelessness, combined with a seeming disregard for the thing seduction is for: getting people to do things for you--or, more likely, tell you things. It just seems like a juvenile "hurr hurr, look at this, you can make people have orgasms". I'm not sure how the Book of Erotic Fantasy addresses something like this, but I'm betting it's with a lot more accuracy and dignity both.
This Dead Levels article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) has a Seduction ability for the Swashbuckler, a much better fit for "heroic-fantasy" seduction: getting someone infatuated with you so they're willing to tell you things they otherwise wouldn't. It also does things like take their attitude into account, and not for some reason diverge into an arbitrary assigning of DCs for kinds and strengths of orgasms.

Korias
2007-12-08, 10:44 PM
Rant about the Skill and its Pretense.

Thank you for stopping this inane conversation. Lets get back on topic, shall we?

Kizara
2007-12-08, 10:49 PM
Well, for starters, you're giving a memorable kiss and a male orgasm the same DC. Think about what that implies.

Some men have difficulty getting off with a partner. Some women can have mutliple orgasms in a few minutes, while others are incapable of having one at all. Then there's the nonsense about intense and multiple orgasms, as if the latter were somehow the next level from the former.

And even a DC of 50 seems ridiculous for the making someone orgasm with a kiss, considering that it's as impossible as, say, passing through a Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#passthroughWallofForce).


And then there's the fact that seduction and sexual prowess are separate things. Seduction is about making someone want you; it doesn't guarantee that you can actually satisfy. It certainly has nothing to do with the ability to give a given person (whether they have them all they time or are physically incapable of it) multiple orgasms.


It borders on offensive because it displays cluelessness, combined with a seeming disregard for the thing seduction is for: getting people to do things for you--or, more likely, tell you things. It just seems like a juvenile "hurr hurr, look at this, you can make people have orgasms". I'm not sure how the Book of Erotic Fantasy addresses something like this, but I'm betting it's with a lot more accuracy and dignity both.
This Dead Levels article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) has a Seduction ability for the Swashbuckler, a much better fit for "heroic-fantasy" seduction: getting someone infatuated with you so they're willing to tell you things they otherwise wouldn't. It also does things like take their attitude into account, and not for some reason diverge into an arbitrary assigning of DCs for kinds and strengths of orgasms.

Touche.

In some defense, it was a very brief first draft of something my group has played around with from time to time.

It wasn't really complete and Diplomancy covers the whole 'seduce to get info thing' better really.


As for the wall of force thing, the fact that skill DCs plateau at "incredibly hard" at DC 30 is a problem of the system, since its quite practical to get results in that area as early as level 5. I suppose trying to ignore that precedent in my homebrew without discussing it or addressing it is pretty foolish.

SpiderKoopa
2007-12-08, 10:52 PM
Ah, I am the DM, and I dually apologize for not reading the entries as far as I should. However there is a twist Caxton left out. In the campaign world, creatures have been changing alignments radically. I can't say why, as it would give away key points, but he is supposed to be a far different alignment. He wants to be LG.
He'll be part of a larger group of demons-gone-good who took the mantle of "Those Who Turned to Celestia." It has to be corny, they're good.:smallwink:

Anyways, so he won't be the typical eeeeeeevil seductress. He'll probably be a paladin if anything (so he can put that charisma to good use).

Anyways, that was the explanation/apology.:smallbiggrin:

turkishproverb
2007-12-08, 11:19 PM
but...but...you have to be able to...

its..its. .... its eeeeeeviil!

tyckspoon
2007-12-08, 11:29 PM
Ah, I am the DM, and I dually apologize for not reading the entries as far as I should. However there is a twist Caxton left out. In the campaign world, creatures have been changing alignments radically. I can't say why, as it would give away key points, but he is supposed to be a far different alignment. He wants to be LG.
He'll be part of a larger group of demons-gone-good who took the mantle of "Those Who Turned to Celestia." It has to be corny, they're good.:smallwink:

Anyways, so he won't be the typical eeeeeeevil seductress. He'll probably be a paladin if anything (so he can put that charisma to good use).

Anyways, that was the explanation/apology.:smallbiggrin:

eh. Doesn't change the mechanics of being a Succubus PC much. Sorcerer or Bard would put the Cha to more immediate use, but Paladin works ok. Saves will be impressively high, high natural armor + heavy armor class means AC probably will be too, and lots of Turn attempts. I'm thinking Divine feats.

SpiderKoopa
2007-12-09, 12:00 AM
eh. Doesn't change the mechanics of being a Succubus PC much. Sorcerer or Bard would put the Cha to more immediate use, but Paladin works ok. Saves will be impressively high, high natural armor + heavy armor class means AC probably will be too, and lots of Turn attempts. I'm thinking Divine feats.

Ah, the part about alignment was more in response to the Nymph is a better choice response. Sorry, I probably should've quoted the post.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-09, 12:18 AM
Anyways, so he won't be the typical eeeeeeevil seductress. He'll probably be a paladin if anything (so he can put that charisma to good use).

I ask you this: Is there anything at all in the paladin code about seducing people? Come on, these people are supposed to be representatives of Law and Good, and what better way to turn people towards the path of righteousness than by relying on the old marketing adage "Sex sells"? :smallwink:

Xuincherguixe
2007-12-09, 01:01 AM
The idea of a lesser Succubus is probably a good one. What with the high level adjustments and some powers that are really strong.

The Teleport being a big one. You may want to still let them use it, but put limits on it. Such as 6/day, once every hour, or that sort of thing.

Incubi are pretty much the male equivalent of Succubi, and might be slightly more interesting as everyone plays Succubi. And if you want to really freak people out, rule it's the same creature (they are shapeshifters)

I also think your character should be a lot more than just some slut. The character's depth might be that they're an alright person when they aren't eating babies, or that you are pure irredeemable evil.


The succubus is a good archetype, but alone it's overused.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-09, 01:07 AM
And if you want to really freak people out, rule it's the same creature (they are shapeshifters)

Isn't that how they were in the original myths? The demon comes to a male as a succubus and acquires the seed, then goes to a female as an incubus and delivers the seed, with the resulting child twisted from the demon's evil into a witch or something?

....
2007-12-09, 02:19 AM
I think a Nymph would be more fun than a Succubus. Still plenty of potential for sexiness, but less shoehorned into, "I have to be a slut and be eeeeevil about it." Plus cooler abilities IMHO. Unfortunately it counts as an ECL 13 character before adding class levels, which is even higher than the Succubus. (Something wrong with that if you ask me. Nymph a more "exotic" character than Succubus? Yeah right.)

There is the nasty side effect of striking people dead just by walking past them, though.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-09, 03:23 AM
There is the nasty side effect of striking people dead just by walking past them, though.

Nymphs only blind people now. Also, they can suppress it somehow. No, I'm not sure how you can suppress beauty so great that mortals go blind from looking at it. It probably involves using fewer laser pointers in your ensemble.

Tokiko Mima
2007-12-10, 10:26 AM
Make sure you qualify for at least 2 levels of Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a), too. There's nothing quite as hip as adding a +8 (minimum) charisma bonus to AC. It's the full plate armor of prettiness. :smalltongue:

Xuincherguixe
2007-12-11, 10:52 AM
Isn't that how they were in the original myths? The demon comes to a male as a succubus and acquires the seed, then goes to a female as an incubus and delivers the seed, with the resulting child twisted from the demon's evil into a witch or something?

Well, there's a lot of myths from what I understand. But yes more or less.

Keld Denar
2007-12-11, 11:22 AM
Divine feats are the way to go. Swing that massive Cha for all its worth. Take a look at Divine Shield. Adds a Sacred bonus to shield's AC bonus equal to cha bonus for rounds equal to cha bonus. Thats like, almost 2 minutes minimum for this character, long enough for most combats. And the AC bonus is better than +5 full plate....from just the shield! Not even counting AC from other sources, such as actual +5 full plate....

Also, Divine Might. Turns that cha into a damage bonus that puts out better than 2handed power attacking for 6-7 points on every attack in a full attack...at no penalty to hit....that you can power attack over the top of....wowzers.

Not even counting the things you can do with a full power attack smite, since you can sac your entire BAB to it, and not worry about tohit because you are adding cha to hit. The smite damage won't be so impressive, but think of the power attacks...THE POWER ATTACKS!!!!

Also of note are Divine Vigor and the vitality one that gives you fast healing X for X rounds, where X is your cha modifier. Not too shabby.

No shortage of turn attempts to blow through, since you have 3 + CHA mod to abuse. That's 4-5 encounters a day using one ability per round for 3 rounds each combat, at least.

Prometheus
2007-12-11, 12:59 PM
I also think your character should be a lot more than just some slut. The character's depth might be that they're an alright person when they aren't eating babies, or that you are pure irredeemable evil.

The succubus is a good archetype, but alone it's overused.
I agree, here's some ideas that come to mind:

-Maybe there is some guy that she genuinely likes, and is personally tempted to seduce, but she knows she will kill him if she indulges herself.
-Maybe she has lived so long or shape-shifted so much she's forgotten her original form. It's just an appearance, but its important to her, because she feels like she is lost and simply replaces the void with sex.
-Maybe she thinks everyone should loosen up and so she makes it her personal life mission to go after individuals with religious objections to casual sex.
-Of course, there is also the obvious fact that many other character background plots function just as well without being based on the fact that she is a succubus

Frosty
2007-12-11, 01:11 PM
Wouldn't a Succubus Paladin be...wierd in terms of how Detect spells and items react to her? I can totally see her holding a Holy Avenger in h er hands and it is both a +5 weapon AND zapping her at the same time. Or another Paladin doing the Detect Evil head-bob on her and probably smiting when the humongous red evil aura shows up on Evil-vision. Magic Circles laugh at her...ALL of them.

playswithfire
2007-12-11, 01:30 PM
Succubus Paladin (http://64.223.12.31/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) complete with backstory involving relationship with an angel

Jade_Tarem
2007-12-11, 02:47 PM
So I can't be a succubus, but I can be a mindflayer, or a rakshasa, or a stone giant, or a (albeit with draconomicon) a DRAGON!?!?

Well, no. ECL system screws the living bejeezus out of dragons. Take a look at one of thier ECL 17 dragons and tell me that any level 17 base class couldn't kill it without breaking a sweat.

And yes. Anything with an established level adjustment can be played as a player character. Take hit dice, add level adjustment, and you get ECL (Equivalent Class Level). That is, the ECL of your Monster PC should be equal to the level of the game you are playing in. So your average Lich (a template, actually, but good enough for our purposes), a level 15 wizard, is equivalent to a level 19 character. Your average Astral Deva (12 Hit Dice, +8 LA) is equivalent to a level 20 character.

Anything with a (-) for a level adjustment was never really meant to be played as a character. That said, you can do it if you can convince your DM that it isn't overpowered AND follow the acid test rules. All this is in the SSG, but I'll outline the basics for you (although I confess to being rusty):

Each special ability has a certain + to ECL, to go along with Hit die. This is essentially how you calculate Level Adjustment on a creature that has none.

Flight: Started out as a +2 LA, but is now +1. Don't ask. You can stick flight on just about anything by adding the "winged" template for - you guessed it - +1 LA.

Unbalanced Ablility Scores (Positive): +1 to LA, but +2 if one of the unbalanced stats is strength or constitution. It can go higher if the stats are really, really unbalanced.

Unbalanced Ability Scores (Negative): -1 to LA, but -2 if one of the unbalanced stats is strength or constitution. It can go higher if the stats are really, really unbalanced.

Damage Reduction: +1 LA for DR 1 or 2. +2 if it's higher. +1 more if the DR is /-.

Fast Healing: +1 LA for Fast Healing 1 or 2, +2 for anything higher.

Regeneration: Very powerful ability. A creature with regen is unkillable except through very special attacks. +2 at the bare minimum. +3 if you plan on using it to make your DM cry.

Elemental Immuntiy: Generally a +1 or +2 to LA, depending on how good it is. I once again state that I'm a little rusty on this and I think that after immunity number one they add by halves, rounded up, so that Electricity Immunity is a +1, Electricity and Fire is +2, Electricity, Fire, and Acid is +2, Electicity, Fire, Acid, and Cold is +3, and so forth.

Elemental Resistance: +1 LA, even for multiple types, unless it's insane or something, I think.

Spell Resistance: A very powerful ability. +2 to LA, at least. Possibly more.

Special Attack: The question here is: Is it more powerful than something a core class could do at the existing ECL that I claim this monster is? If the answer is no, then it has a +0 LA. If the answer is yes, then that's a +1. This covers things like breath weapons, special abilities, spell-like abilities, and gaze attacks.

Powerful Immunity: Immunity to some broad category of special attacks, such as mind-affecting abilities, disease and poison, negative energy-based attacks, and so on, is a powerful thing, and will probably net you at least a +2 LA.

Obscure Immunity: Being immune to petrification or sleep isn't a balance-shattering feature. +0 LA unless your DM says otherwise (it could be a basilisk hunting campaign, I guess..?)

Spellcasting/Psionics: Depends once again on what someone at your ECL could do. Chances are it isn't going to be higher than +1 LA, but some creatures such as Mind Flayers and Rhakshasa have spellcasting/manifesting to the point where it matters. Dragons, despite popular opinion, do not. You won't play a dragon in a non-epic campaign whose spellcasting is worth spit, so don't worry about it when making a dragon character.

Undead: The undead type is an automatic +2 LA. Sorry, but that's too many immunities to ignore. The only reason it isn't much higher is due to the massive CON drop.

Outsider: Usually a +1 LA. Some templates, like Half-Celestial, have it much higher, though.

Celestial/Infernal: Usually a +1 to +2 LA.

Demon/Devil/Archon/Angel: Most of these come with their own LA, or else have too many hit dice to consider. They come loaded with special attacks and other moves, most of them have positive ability score adjustments, and almost all of them can fly. The only one I've ever made work that had a dash for a level adjustment was the lantern archon, which has an LA of 0 if you drop the Greater Teleport (at will) ability until later levels.

Magical Beast: Varies. Ask your DM and follow the guidelines above for special attacks and such.

Awakened: A template that can be applied to any mindless creature/thing, or any creature with a mental stat below 3. Roll 3d6 for each of your mental stats and add it in. It maxes at 18, though. This is a +2 LA.

Incarnate: A template that can be added to humanoid-ish Constructs. It obliterates most of their immunities, and has a -2 LA. Unfortunately, all those glorious immunities are what make the construct mechanically worthwhile in the first place, so despite the joyous LA drop, I feel compelled to mention that this template is approved by Admiral Ackbar: "It's a trap!"



So that's the basics of making your own creature from nothing. I don't state that everything is 100% accurate and it ALL requires the approval of your DM. Hope this helps.

SpiderKoopa
2007-12-11, 02:49 PM
Wouldn't a Succubus Paladin be...wierd in terms of how Detect spells and items react to her? I can totally see her holding a Holy Avenger in h er hands and it is both a +5 weapon AND zapping her at the same time. Or another Paladin doing the Detect Evil head-bob on her and probably smiting when the humongous red evil aura shows up on Evil-vision. Magic Circles laugh at her...ALL of them.

Meh, I'm ruling that any demons who've radically changed alignment, have been with the respected corny named "Those Who Turned to Celestia" enough to have their aura changed to LG. Why do they need to join the group? Survival mostly. There's a whole lot of other demons that didn't have the change happen and they're looking for the awol demons to er... "punish."

So detect evil won't ping her, holy avengers won't zap her, and only magic circles against good. :smallsmile:

It's sort of a maunty-haul type campaign anyways, as you've probably gathered by the fact that succubus is allowed. Also, on another note, I'm a firm partaker that succubus are the same as incubus and can change to either at will.:smallcool:

Chronos
2007-12-11, 05:43 PM
Unbalanced Ablility Scores (Positive): +1 to LA, but +2 if one of the unbalanced stats is strength or constitution.So, you're actually arguing that hobgoblins are under-adjusted at only +1?

tyckspoon
2007-12-11, 05:51 PM
So, you're actually arguing that hobgoblins are under-adjusted at only +1?

This is the same reasoning that made half orcs suck so hard. In the earlier days of 3.0 the game's developers were convinced that melee was the power option, and that Strength and Con, since they helped with melee, were the most powerful stats to raise. They were wrong about a lot of things (and they really should have given the half orc something nice while they were correcting their Haste mistake.)

Hagentai
2007-12-12, 12:58 AM
Succubi and other demons really aren't meant to be player characters. They have some rather powerful abilities, and that's why there isn't the option to play as one. That said, there's a section in the book Savage Species about such situations, except that the Succubus is a 12 level monster class.

Says the white mage. If you take all the level adjustment and Hd you may as well have been ecl 12 with no class levels. Let us suppose all players where level 20 in a epic game. Your character would be a level 8 succubus while everyone else would be level 20 and using there full classes abilitys.

Who do you really think would have more juice?

Conners
2007-12-12, 06:40 AM
I'd say either weaken the succubus race down ALOT, or set up racial levels for it.
Very Rough Example of Racial Levels:
Level 1: 1 hitdice. -2 STR, -2 CON, +2 INT, +2 CHR. Shape change.
Level 2: 2 hitdice. -2 STR, +2 INT, +4 CHR. Shape change, flight.
Level 3: 3 hitdice. +4 INT, +2 WIS, +6 CHR. Shape change, flight, drain.

Pyroconstruct
2007-12-12, 09:28 AM
My personal favorite for noting how terribly, terribly poorly thought out the ECL rules are is the following "race":



10 HD Humanoid (good Will save type)
No stat adjustments
Special Ability: Cast spells as a 10th level cleric.
No other special abilities/qualities/etc.

According to the guidelines in Savage Species, this is an ECL 20 race. Yeah, definitely. :smallconfused:

I personally recommend using a slightly modified version of Solarian's ECL calculator instead: http://csserver.evansville.edu/~jc84/DD3/Monster_ECL.htm,
except with a slight variant in which you price an ability down as the character levels (eg, at 15th level don't make the half-dragon keep paying for his useless breath weapon that is only good for starting campfires at that level).

Mewtarthio
2007-12-13, 01:59 AM
There's an ungodly number of templates and races based around the forces of evil floating around out there. Isn't there some sort of low-ECL lesser succubus? Maybe a half-succubus (reflavored to be a succubus that has lost her connection to Evil Power)?

Tokiko Mima
2007-12-13, 03:55 AM
Wouldn't a Succubus Paladin be...wierd in terms of how Detect spells and items react to her? I can totally see her holding a Holy Avenger in h er hands and it is both a +5 weapon AND zapping her at the same time. Or another Paladin doing the Detect Evil head-bob on her and probably smiting when the humongous red evil aura shows up on Evil-vision. Magic Circles laugh at her...ALL of them.

There are advantages and disadvantages in this. On the plus side, her attacks penetrate both DR/good and DR/evil. Her own DR is DR/good, so evil creatures cannot penetrate her damage resistance, unless they wield weapons that damage or drain their levels. Wielding a holy weapon would be a problem since your succubus, though Lawful good is still an evil creature (evil subtype) but there are plenty of Paladin type weapons that don't cause level drain.

As far as Detect spells go, those are so easy to fool it isn't funny, with a low level undetectable alignment spell or item. Magic Circles versus Alignment would all grant their +2 AC and save bonuses, but that's all: She's not summoned, nor is she a mental domination attempt (though she has those abilities ready) so you don't ward her outside the circle. Basically, she gains all the benefits of being any extreme alignment and all the drawbacks, too. If she took cleric levels, she would be the only cleric that could choose both Good and Evil or Chaos and Law domains.

Frosty
2007-12-13, 11:45 AM
Oh right. Our DM houseruled that Magic Circles kept out everything from an alignment, not just summoned creatures, so that's what I'm used to :p

Jade_Tarem
2007-12-14, 12:14 AM
So, you're actually arguing that hobgoblins are under-adjusted at only +1?

No, but 'dem's da rules.

If you want something that's massively over-adjusted, just look at dragon PC's. WotC took into account the following, none of which will actually see the light of day in a non-epic game (and be effective):

What a Dragon PC's ECL is adjusted for:
Hit Dice(HD<ECL)
Ability Score Adjustments
Flight
Elemental Immunity
SR
Spellcasting
DR
Breath Weapon
Fear Aura
Natural Armor
Multiattack with max BAB

What a Dragon PC will get to use in significant quantity to make a difference:
Hit Dice
Ability Score Adjustments
Flight
Elemental Immunity

To this day, some people still do not understand this concept, that an ECL 17 Dragon is nowhere near as strong as an ECL 17 Base Race with 17 levels in a class. It has fewer hit points for crying out loud!