Magic School / Theory Rework

[Firechanter]

I gotta admit, the way how certain spells have been assigned to school has always irked me, to a degree. Also, I've always found it pretty ridiculous how one school (Conj, obviously) can do anything and everything. So, I'm fiddling with a rework of the school system.

NOTE: Don't worry too much about implementation or gameplay issues. For the time being, this is just some theoretical experiment.

So:
I want to link the manifestations of magic more closely to the planes of the D&D multiverse, based on the Wheel model. The idea is that most spell schools are linked to particular planes, from which they draw their power. So when wondering what school a particular spell should be assigned to, I try to identify which plane it is associated with, and go from there.

In my current draft, I end up with more than the classic 8 schools. Currently I vary between 10 and 13, depending. The model currently looks like this:

* Abjuration
-- as usual, counter-magic and certain other defensive spells. However, the school is bound to lose a number of spells that I feel make more sense in different schools.
I have even considered abolishing the entire school and sorting the spells into various other schools (like, Dismissal becomes Invocation), but I feel this would have too strong ramifications especially on Specialization.

* Alteration
-- Transmutation, i.e. magically changing a creature or object. Not linked to a particular plane. Changed name (back to 2E nomenclature) to avoid multiple schools starting with "Trans", see below.
I considered splitting it into two schools for animate and inanimate targets, but the ratio between the two is like 9 to 1.
Note: Polymorph is deleted.

* Conjuration
-- now basically restricted to what is the [Creation] subschool in Pathfinder, and sans anything related to the elemental Energies. You can conjure wind, clothes, a bunny, but not Acid Arrows, Orbs of Fire, or Force effects.

* Divination
-- as you know it. I found very little in Div that needs to be fiddled with.

(Enchantment -> see Mentalism)

* Evocation
-- any spell that deals with the elemental Energies (Fire, Acid, etc), Light, and any Force effect. It's as simple as that. So this school picks up a lot of spells from Conjuration, but also some from Abjuration (Shield) and occasional other schools. Elemental spells are linked to the Elemental planes [duh], Force is... something else.

* Illusion
-- more closly linked to the Shadow plane. Might pick up a few spells like Phantom Steed.

* Invocation
-- any Summoning or Calling of extraplanar creatures (Outsiders). So, mostly the Summon Monster line and Planar Binding / Ally. By the same mail, I'm thinking of breaking up Summon Monster into more particular spells, like Summon Fiend, Summon Fey, Summon Celestial etc. Associated with Elemental and Outer Planes.

* Mentalism
-- renamed from "Enchantment" to finally get rid of that ambiguity with "enchanted weapons" and suchlike. Anything that manipulates the mind of a living creature. Now with two subschools, Domination and Inspiration. So obviously Dom is debuffs and control, Ins is buffs. At first I considered breaking it up into two separate schools, but then I figured the working principle of both types is basically the same, so they should stay together.

* "Necromancy"
-- now a subschool for one school that I still need a good name for. Necromancy is the manipulation of Negative Energy (which is also used to create and control Undead); the converse subschool would be Restoration or Animancy and deal with the manipulation of Positive Energy. Of course Wiz/Sorcs have precious little access to Positive spells, but I figured that the technique to tap them should be quasi-identical (if inverted), hence they should both belong to the same school.

* Translocation
-- any spell that moves you into or through another plane. So mostly spells that make you Ethereal (like Blink), and any kind of teleportation, from Benign Transposition over Plane Shift to Teleportation Circle. Also a pretty small, but powerful and versatile school. Associated with Ether and Astral plane.


--

Some spells may undergo complete redefinition; for instance any kind of telekinesis is classically Transmutation. I am thinking of redefining telekinesis as Force effect, i.e. "you create a force that picks up and moves around target objects", which by the logic of this model makes it Evocation (since all Force is Evo).
Or it may simply be possible to achieve mostly the same effect by the methods of different schools. There could be variants of Fly that work either by letting you grow wings (Alteration), or creating an invisible hoverboard that you step on to zoom around (Evocation), and so forth. These different spells could have differing countermeasures, i.e. if you rely on wings then those wings might be clipped; if you ride hoverboard you might get bull rushed off it.

--

Potential ramifications:
IF this were ever implemented into an actual game, I would hope that these modifications make Specialization and the selection of Opposed Schools more balanced. Like, all the free Blast spells that Conjuration used to get, are off to Evo. Some other spells also land in Evocation, so banning this school might not besuch an easy choice anymore. Conversely, if you're not interested in making your teammates redundant by summoning your own zoo, you can ban Invocation without losing any of the Conjuring and Teleporting, and everyone's happy.

--

Thoughts?

And what could we call a school that combines the Positive/Negative Energy theme, Restoration and Necromancy subschools?

[Silva Stormrage]

So the major changes are

Splitting up Conjuration into 3 schools
Adding positive energy to necromancy
Added a bunch of spells to evocation that probably should have been there at the start


I like the changes but I feel like splitting conjuration into three schools is a bit much. Splitting it into creation and summoning/transportation seems reasonable (Teleportation and calling creatures feels like they should be in the same school)

This does leave transmutation as by far and away the strongest school as even without polymorph it was on par with Conjuration without planar binding shenanigans. Not sure how you could split the school though, maybe take some buff spells out of it and put them in abjuration? "Change things" as a school was always a bit broad...


For necromancy rename I would rename it Soul Manipulation or similar as you are manipulating life force (Either reinforcing it with positive energy or draining it with negative)

[Yakk]

The evocation change (basically "if it does damage it is evocation") seems more tied to mechanics and less to the world.

If you are going to tie stuff to specific schools, you could embrace the fact that 3e D&D has way too many spells right now. So strip it down: 2-4 spells per school per level is enough.

In that sense, start with the Planes they Draw Energy From, then find spells for each of them, instead of trying to shoe horn every 3e spell into your system.

That'll make the distinctions a LOT crisper. And extending things from that start is going to keep more of the character and distinctiveness than any kind of "X, except Y" would.

[NichG]

I gotta admit, the way how certain spells have been assigned to school has always irked me, to a degree. Also, I've always found it pretty ridiculous how one school (Conj, obviously) can do anything and everything. So, I'm fiddling with a rework of the school system.

NOTE: Don't worry too much about implementation or gameplay issues. For the time being, this is just some theoretical experiment.

So:
I want to link the manifestations of magic more closely to the planes of the D&D multiverse, based on the Wheel model. The idea is that most spell schools are linked to particular planes, from which they draw their power. So when wondering what school a particular spell should be assigned to, I try to identify which plane it is associated with, and go from there.


Why not actually just make (relatively) short spell lists for each plane - say 5 spells per spell level per major group (Druid, Cleric, Wizard), and just discard everything else? Could even make it so that a caster has a certain number of planes they can be aligned with in which they get full progression, but only get half or no progression in unaligned planes. Maybe Sorcerers just pick one Plane and get everything in it.

I guess to put it another way, if the idea is 'spells are acts calling upon a plane' then it makes sense that e.g. every plane has its own Summon spell, rather than there being a specific school for summoning. Similarly, every plane would have its own spells that summon the raw energy of its concept, rather than there being a school for dealing damage, and so on.

If you wanted to really revamp things, you could basically make all spells follow the format of 'basic expression of magic' + 'plane that it expresses' + 'spell level'. So there would really only be, say, 9 expressions of magic: Detect, Evoke, Summon, Alter, Mantle, Infuse, Abjure, Breach, Traverse. But you could have, say, 'the 4th level spell which Alters a thing towards the Celestial' or 'the 6th level spell which Infuses Negative Energy into a thing' or 'the 3rd level spell which Traverses Fire'. Maybe some of those just don't exist or are kind of worthless spells, like 'The Cantrip that Traverses Mechanus' might just let you manipulate the interior of a mechanical device by touching its outside or something like that.

[Silva Stormrage]

The evocation change (basically "if it does damage it is evocation") seems more tied to mechanics and less to the world.

If you are going to tie stuff to specific schools, you could embrace the fact that 3e D&D has way too many spells right now. So strip it down: 2-4 spells per school per level is enough.


That is one of the few things separating 3.5 from other systems atm. I would be of the opinion that 3.5 needs MORE spells not less. Add more defensive spells for abjuration, more utility spells for evocation and more varied interesting effects for necromancy (Especially if you add positive energy into the mix, you don't want to add healing to wizards but surely you can make positive energy work without just healing).

[Firechanter]

Thanks for the feedback guys, some inspiring thoughts! =)


So the major changes are
I like the changes but I feel like splitting conjuration into three schools is a bit much. Splitting it into creation and summoning/transportation seems reasonable (Teleportation and calling creatures feels like they should be in the same school)


That is an idea I will consider. I suppose it did brush my braincell at some point but I failed to hold on to it. "You move things through planes. Whether it's yourself or some other entity that you move makes no difference" would be the rationale. Except Invocation also includes "You also make sure that the things you move don't eat you" when they arrive" :biggrin:


This does leave transmutation as by far and away the strongest school as even without polymorph it was on par with Conjuration without planar binding shenanigans. Not sure how you could split the school though, maybe take some buff spells out of it and put them in abjuration? "Change things" as a school was always a bit broad...

Yeah, it is a bit broad. Well as I said (I think), I am inclined to move all kinds of Telekinesis into Evo (defining it as Force manipulation). Then maybe split of Transmutation of Inanimate Objects into a separate school. Some other T spells ought to be in different schools anyway, but probably a minor amount.



For necromancy rename I would rename it Soul Manipulation or similar as you are manipulating life force (Either reinforcing it with positive energy or draining it with negative)

Yeah something like Lifeforcemancy but with a more latin ring to it. Soul is Anima iirc, so maybe Animancy or something.


The evocation change (basically "if it does damage it is evocation") seems more tied to mechanics and less to the world.

All spells directly manipulating elemental energies (which almost always cause damage) are Evo, yes. But then there are Force spells, which include Mage Armor, Shield, Floating Disk, a bunch of BFC (Bigby line, Forcecage, Wall of Force), and as per the aforementioned idea also any kind of telekinesis, from Mage Hand to... whatever the highest level telekinetic spell is. ^^


If you are going to tie stuff to specific schools, you could embrace the fact that 3e D&D has way too many spells right now. So strip it down: 2-4 spells per school per level is enough.

I'll agree that a lot of the >3000 spells published are rubbish and nobody would notice if they went away. That said, boiling it down to something like 300 spells total (all schools, all levels) might be a bit harsh. I know plenty of RPG systems that have very compact spell lists and they all kinda feel bland and generic. So I'd prefer to keep a bit more diversity.


If you wanted to really revamp things, you could basically make all spells follow the format of 'basic expression of magic' + 'plane that it expresses' + 'spell level'. So there would really only be, say, 9 expressions of magic: Detect, Evoke, Summon, Alter, Mantle, Infuse, Abjure, Breach, Traverse. But you could have, say, 'the 4th level spell which Alters a thing towards the Celestial'

That sounds a bit like the Ars Magica system, which develops spells from "Verb + Noun" concepts, like "Rego Animal" - "I command the animal" - which in combination with the spell level governs the effect from "ward against animal" over "calm animal" to "control animal". There are only 5 valid verbs, for create, perceive, destroy, transform, rule; and 10 nouns (4 for the classic elements).

So, creating something like this based on D&D conventions, that... would be a project :biggrin: I'll certainly give it some thought, see if the inspiration strikes.

[Vaern]

* Conjuration
-- now basically restricted to what is the [Creation] subschool in Pathfinder, and sans anything related to the elemental Energies. You can conjure wind, clothes, a bunny, but not Acid Arrows, Orbs of Fire, or Force effects.

* Evocation
-- any spell that deals with the elemental Energies (Fire, Acid, etc), Light, and any Force effect. It's as simple as that. So this school picks up a lot of spells from Conjuration, but also some from Abjuration (Shield) and occasional other schools. Elemental spells are linked to the Elemental planes [duh], Force is... something else.

Conjuration is more appropriate for acid spells than Evocation, on the grounds that acid is described in the books as not being a "proper" energy type. It is a material that deals damage in a way that more closely resembles energy damage than common weapon damage types. As-is, I think Evocation [Acid] spells are exceedingly rare to the point of being almost non-existent short of using energy substitution to change another type of spell into an acid spell.

I would definitely put all of the Orbs of Energy in Evocation, except for maybe acid which I might simply remove from the game altogether. On paper, the conjurer is summoning the same amount of material from the same source. A higher caster level might make the effects of the conjured substance last longer, but the substance wouldn't be any more potent. Having a spell's damage scale directly with caster level simply doesn't fit the school of Conjuration as a whole. The acid energy type is not typical for an Evocation spell, and the mechanical functionality of the Orb spells is not typical a Conjuration spell; thus, the Orb of Acid spell simply should not exist as-is in either school.

I might also move all of the Prismatic spells to Universal. The variety of effects they can produce include fire (Evocation), acid (Conjuration), electricity (Evocation), deadly poison (Necromancy), insanity (Enchantment, now Mentalism), petrification (Transmutation, now Alteration), and plane shifting (Conjuration, now Translocation). The potential effects span 5 of Core's schools, or 6 of yours.


* Mentalism
-- renamed from "Enchantment" to finally get rid of that ambiguity with "enchanted weapons" and suchlike.

If we're looking at the rules in a vacuum, the name chance isn't necessary. Magic weapons are only ever referred to as "magic weapons," with an "enhancement bonus" and "special abilities." Terms like "enchanted weapons" simply don't exist as far as D&D is concerned. We only use the phrase because we've all collectively played too much World of Warcraft and Skyrim, where "enchanting" refers specifically to putting magical effects on items rather than in reference to mind manipulation.

Speaking of Skyrim, The Elder Scrolls rolls up what D&D classifies as Enchantment into the Illusion school. Anything that manipulates the mind and/or senses is Illusion. A good deal of Enchantment involves manipulating how the target perceives things around them (whether they perceive you as a friend or foe when charmed, whether they feel good or bad in terms of morale bonuses or penalties, etc.) and could be interpreted as simply manipulated some senses beyond the traditional five that we generally think of. You could go the same route and package the two together if you wanted to reduce the size of your list, categorizing anything [Mind-affecting] as Illusion and applying subschools as appropriate.


And what could we call a school that combines the Positive/Negative Energy theme, Restoration and Necromancy subschools?

Yeah something like Lifeforcemancy but with a more latin ring to it. Soul is Anima iirc, so maybe Animancy or something.

"Vitae" refers to life, so "Vitaemancy" could be a replacement name for restoration, with Vitaemancy and Necromancy be subschools of Animancy.

[glass]

Thoughts??I like most of it in principle, although I don't think Abjuration needs to lose any spells. It should either keep everything it currently has or gain a few more (or maybe go away entirely and sprinkle the spells spells amongst the other schools). Force spells fit here better than Evocation IMNSHO.

I feel like "Invocation" being a completely different thing from "Evocation" (when the school used to be "Evocation/Invocation" for those of us old enough) is potentially confusing, especially but not solely because "Evocation" is still there. Maybe considering its renewed focus on Energy types, call the latter "Energism" or something. I don't have a good replacement name for the former, unfortunately.

I actually don't think splitting Conjuration into three is too much, given its thematic breadth, especially since teleport and the like was originally Alteration. Especially if the next-broadest school (Transmutation/Alteration) is losing some of its big ticket spells too. It probably could stand to be broken down further, but I am not sure how.

I do agree with Vaern that acid should primarily remain in/be moved to Conjuration.

When it comes to actually balancing these for play, it would probably be a lot easier if spells could be in more than one school again.

[Metastachydium]

* "Necromancy"
-- now a subschool for one school that I still need a good name for. Necromancy is the manipulation of Negative Energy (which is also used to create and control Undead); the converse subschool would be Restoration or Animancy and deal with the manipulation of Positive Energy. Of course Wiz/Sorcs have precious little access to Positive spells, but I figured that the technique to tap them should be quasi-identical (if inverted), hence they should both belong to the same school.

And what could we call a school that combines the Positive/Negative Energy theme, Restoration and Necromancy subschools?


Yeah something like Lifeforcemancy but with a more latin ring to it. Soul is Anima iirc, so maybe Animancy or something.


"Vitae" refers to life, so "Vitaemancy" could be a replacement name for restoration, with Vitaemancy and Necromancy be subschools of Animancy.

Diclaimer: Apologies should I come through as far more vehement than the subject matter would warrant it, but I have an actual degree in actual Classical Philology, and every time I see "whatevermancy" used as a sloppy means of forming words, the world seems to get cloder and darker around me.

Now:
–vitae is in fact the plural of vita ('life') in Latin; and
–anima is really 'lifesoul' in the strict sense; but
–none of this really matters because necromancy is a compound of two Greek words; and because
–IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FRAKIN' ZOMBIEMAKING.
Further, *animancy, even if we set aside ALL these issues with an amazing generosity, would still be a silly portmanteau that doesn't fit a set of real words used as quasi-academic terms in any way I can conceive of.

Now, in terms of actual advice, I can offer this: the equivalent of the Latin anima ('lifesoul') in Greek is πνευμα. One could derive a term denoting 'magical lifeforce manipulation' from that in numerous ways; what I'd personally recommend is either pneumatism or pneumaturgy (formed in the exact same way as thaumaturgy is from a very similar neuter root, which makes it easy to recognize and memorize even for laypeople). As for using negative energy in particular, I'd likely go with either thanaturgy ('deathworking') or thanatophory ('deathbringing', as in bringing death energy into the world to achieve various ends).