Sleep, Drowning, and suffocation (blame Eyebite) off the Salt Marsh coast

[KorvinStarmast]

I am mulling over a ruling and am soliciting input.
Note: GitP's Kurt Kurageous is a player in this game (Rogue/Thief) and is most welcome to make suggestions on the ruling. (He's a good DM too).
Note; I chose to give the two gladiators on the crew (Capt and First mate) swimming speed based on setting reasons. (The rest are same as MM but swashbucklers were initially armed with heavy crossbows as the party tried to make their approach to the ship, which was underway).
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Situation:
A running battle taking place in the water.
While Barbarian is engaged with five opponents (1 with swimming speed, 4 without) the other three members are dealing with multiple berserkers, swashbucklers, a bad guy, and a GOO (NPC) warlock.
We will focus on the sorcerer and the Barbarian (Totem Warrior)

Round 1:
Sorcerer casts eyebite at the Gladiator (who missed his save) and put him to sleep. He's in the water. (Sorc then ducks underwater to try and avoid attention of the berserkers stabbing at the barbarian with their spears).
Gladiator is now unconscious.
Barbarian still mixed up, melee continues.
Round 2:
Sorcerer then lays so0me eyebite sleep on one of the berserkers. He fails save.
Gladiator has been unconscious, and is still asleep.
One berserker is asleep.
Round 3:
Sorcerer let's loose with his shadow dog to distract another opponent, and I ponder the unconscious berserker and gladiator.
The "drowning" rules are rather sparse, but I look at the suffocation rules and see some options.

Eyebite, like sleep, leaves the creature asleep unless (a) it takes damage or (b) someone shakes it awake.
Suffocation, which is resisted by holding one's breath for 1 minute plus con mod, takes as many rounds as con mod to put a creature at 0 HP.
But it does not inflict damage and it does not shake anyone awake.
On the other hand, choking on water disrupt the normal breathing of a sleeping creature, so maybe that's equivalent?

What I am wondering:
Should I wake the gladiator up due to him beginning to choke despite not taking damage? I have already ruled that he's dropped his two weapons, they are sinking).
Shoule I wake up the berserker for the same reason?

On what round? At the moment I have the gladiator sinking asleep, and I may begin the suffocation regime if I don't decide to wake him up.

Playgrounder DM's: how would you rule this?

One of the things I am pondering is that eyebite is a level 6 spell, and my instinct is that it's sleep effect is more powerful than the level 1 sleep,
but,
since sleep can be upcast up to level 9 that may not make any difference.

[Amnestic]

If it were non-magical sleeping I'd have them wake up immediately when they start suffocating, but since this is a 6th level spell and magical sleep...I'd probably say they get a consave each round they're suffocating while asleep (DC=15? Spell save DC? Something like that). If they succeed, they wake up. They then - after waking up - suffer exhaustion for each round they failed a 'wake up' saving throw and were suffocating for, which lasts until a short/long rest, which represents the lingering effects being stuck underwater unconscious had on them. And of course, they then still need to make it back to the surface.

[Unoriginal]

I am mulling over a ruling and am soliciting input.
Note: GitP's Kurt Kurageous is a player in this game (Rogue/Thief) and is most welcome to make suggestions on the ruling. (He's a good DM too).
Note; I chose to give the two gladiators on the crew (Capt and First mate) swimming speed based on setting reasons. (The rest are same as MM but swashbucklers were initially armed with heavy crossbows as the party tried to make their approach to the ship, which was underway).
------------------------
Situation:
A running battle taking place in the water.
While Barbarian is engaged with five opponents (1 with swimming speed, 4 without) the other three members are dealing with multiple berserkers, swashbucklers, a bad guy, and a GOO (NPC) warlock.
We will focus on the sorcerer and the Barbarian (Totem Warrior)

Round 1:
Sorcerer casts eyebite at the Gladiator (who missed his save) and put him to sleep. He's in the water. (Sorc then ducks underwater to try and avoid attention of the berserkers stabbing at the barbarian with their spears).
Gladiator is now unconscious.
Barbarian still mixed up, melee continues.
Round 2:
Sorcerer then lays so0me eyebite sleep on one of the berserkers. He fails save.
Gladiator has been unconscious, and is still asleep.
One berserker is asleep.
Round 3:
Sorcerer let's loose with his shadow dog to distract another opponent, and I ponder the unconscious berserker and gladiator.
The "drowning" rules are rather sparse, but I look at the suffocation rules and see some options.

Eyebite, like sleep, leaves the creature asleep unless (b) it takes damage or (b) someone shakes it awake.
Suffocation, which is resisted by holding one's breath for 1 minute plus con mod, takes as many rounds as con mod to put a creature at 0 HP.
But it does not inflict damage and it does not shake anyone awake.
On the other hand, choking on water disrupt the normal breathing of a sleeping creature, so maybe that's equivalent?

What I am wondering:
Should I wake the gladiator up due to him beginning to choke despite not taking damage? I have already ruled that he's dropped his two weapons, they are sinking).
Shoule I wake up the berserker for the same reason?

On what round? At the moment I have the gladiator sinking asleep, and I may begin the suffocation regime if I don't decide to wake him up.

Playgrounder DM's: how would you rule this?

One of the things I am pondering is that eyebite is a level 6 spell, and my instinct is that it's sleep effect is more powerful than the level 1 sleep,
but,
since sleep can be upcast up to level 9 that may not make any difference.

Magical sleep is harder to wake up from than regular sleep.

I see no reason why drowning should wake them up.

As per the suffocation rules, I would rule they they have their CON mods in turns to get woken up or carried back to the surface until they suffocate and get to 0 HPs.

[KorvinStarmast]

If it were non-magical sleeping I'd have them wake up immediately when they start suffocating, but since this is a 6th level spell and magical sleep...I'd probably say they get a con save each round they're suffocating while asleep (DC=15? Spell save DC? Something like that). Hmm, like the DC based con save (the DC was 16 by the spell caster)

If they succeed, they wake up. They then - after waking up - suffer exhaustion for each round they failed a 'wake up' saving throw and were suffocating for, which lasts until a short/long rest, which represents the lingering effects being stuck underwater unconscious had on them. And of course, they then still need to make it back to the surface. A bit fiddly, but it captures some of the things I was thinking about.
Thanks, good food for thought there. :smallsmile:

[J-H]

I agree with a Constitution save to wake up from the magical sleep. Water pouring into your mouth and nose is certainly as much of an awakening stimulus as somebody kicking you in the side and going "Hey, wake up!"

[KorvinStarmast]

J-H and Unoriginal: thanks to both, good inputs.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

This is an interesting one. I've run across it before and struggled to come up with an answer that I liked.

One other option is that a person magically sleeping person naturally holds their breath for the normal duration before starting to drown. I like (dislike) this option about as much as any of the others based on the rules.

[Keravath]

As far as I am concerned you said it yourself in the description:

"A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds). When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again."

This assumes that a creature is holding its breath. A creature that is asleep can't hold its breath so it begins to drown immediately. It survives a number of rounds equal to its con modifier ... at the start of its next turn it drops to 0 hit points, makes death saves and can't be stabilized until it can breathe again.

In my opinion, a creature won't go directly from full hit points to zero hit points. Hit points don't just represent physical damage. Although it isn't RAW, I would deduct Total Current HP/(con mod +1) hit points for each round of drowning. This way on round con mod+1 the creature reaches 0 HPs.

It doesn't make sense to me that a creature would happily drown without it waking up. In addition, I would not expect the creature to come out of such a situation unfazed. So it would make sense to deduct hit points for each round of drowning the creature experiences. When the sleeping creature starts to drown, it would take hit point damage and wake up.

Of course, if they were swimming the odds are good that they may have sunk due to the weight of their gear as well as dropped any weapons in hand so their first priority will be getting to the surface to breathe.

That's probably how I would probably choose to run it though it does require house ruling that drowning doesn't take a creature to zero hit points without some intermediate steps.

----

In terms of waking up from Eyebite:

"Asleep. The target falls unconscious. It wakes up if it takes any damage or if another creature uses its action to shake the sleeper awake."

If the creature takes any damage or is shaken it wakes up. Even 1 HP of damage would wake the creature up even if it is magical sleep. If the spell was more difficult to break, I might rule it differently but the magical sleep in this case appears to be not much deeper than regular sleep. In addition, as mentioned, I don't really see how any effect can reduce a target to 0 hit points over time without having an incremental effect on the way there.

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The other advantage of doing just hit point damage is that the target takes damage, is removed from combat for a round, likely dropped their weapon and since they still haven't saved against Eyebite, the sorcerer could choose to target them again BUT the target is not removed from combat as a threat or something that still needs to be dealt with.

[Unoriginal]

I have an alternative idea:


Ask yourself what is the most interesting for this situation only.

Don't think in term of rules, think in term of the scene.

Is it more interesting if the two foes wake up as soon as the water starts filling their noses, mouths and lungs?

Is it more interesting if they start drowning and the PCs or their allies have to actively spend time/efforts to avoid their deaths?

What happens for the rest of the encounter if they wake up vs what happens if they risk dying while asleep?

[Ryuken]

I think you have to establish how magical sleep is treated.

Is it like being knocked out? Because people drown in their bathwater from slip & falls that have them go unconscious. If that's how you see it, then those in the water should start drowning/suffocating.

If it's more like a deep sleep (the coughing, aching, how did I end up on the floor medicine kind) ingesting water should wake them up. Maybe a Wis save to fight the reflex of taking a breath when startled awake...and go from there.

[Unoriginal]

I think you have to establish how magical sleep is treated.

Is it like being knocked out? Because people drown in their bathwater from slip & falls that have them go unconscious. If that's how you see it, then those in the water should start drowning/suffocating.

If it's more like a deep sleep (the coughing, aching, how did I end up on the floor medicine kind) ingesting water should wake them up. Maybe a Wis save to fight the reflex of taking a breath when startled awake...and go from there.

Could also be like substance-induced anesthesia, or like something else entirely.

Could also vary depending on several things.

[sithlordnergal]

I mean, reading RAW and only RAW, Eyebite states that a creature wakes up if it takes any damage or if another creature uses its action to shake the sleeper awake.

You are not taking damage when you Suffocate, and the water is not using an Action to shake you awake, therefore you do not wake up.

The only iffy thing is holding one's breath. There aren't really any rules about when you can start holding your breath. You just decide that you're holding your breath. So, technically speaking, an unconscious creature could hold their breath since its not an action or anything. However, I typically rule that holding your breath is something you have to choose to do at the start of your turn, provided you are not Incapacitated.

If you use my rule on holding your breath, mixed with what the spell says wakes you up, they're have 1+Con Mod turns before their HP is set to 0.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I mean, reading RAW and only RAW, Eyebite states that a creature wakes up if it takes any damage or if another creature uses its action to shake the sleeper awake.

You are not taking damage when you Suffocate, and the water is not using an Action to shake you awake, therefore you do not wake up.

The only iffy thing is holding one's breath. There aren't really any rules about when you can start holding your breath. You just decide that you're holding your breath. So, technically speaking, an unconscious creature could hold their breath since its not an action or anything. However, I typically rule that holding your breath is something you have to choose to do at the start of your turn, provided you are not Incapacitated.

If you use my rule on holding your breath, mixed with what the spell says wakes you up, they're have 1+Con Mod turns before their HP is set to 0.

I largely agree with this.

I can't ever recall holding one's breath / or the ability not to being mentioned in any Condition in 5e. Upthread someone concludes that a sleeping creature can't hold their breath. I can stand corrected if someone points out a specific rule, but there seems to be no game based evidence for this assumption.