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ZeroNumerous
2007-12-08, 09:13 PM
Amid the carnage of the battlefield, a single woman stood. She gripped a katana in her right hand with the blade soaked in blood. A field of corpses, a hundred strong, littered the ground beneath her feet. But still, the woman walked across her bloodied bodies with a feeling of remorse. This was the power of Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu, the power to pit an individual against an army with nothing but her sword at her side. Her eyes grew cold as she listened the rustling of a moving body, her mind instinctively lapsing into the Hitokiri state..

Battōsai are swordsmen who train in the style of Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu. However, to truly master the style, one must be willing to protect someone dear to the student. Because of this willingness to protect, many students suppress their hatred, anger, and killing urges deep within their mind. Those negative feelings coalesce into something more than feeling, something very real and very dangerous. Thus is born the Hitokiri State.

Battōsai
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu Maneuvers Known|Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu Maneuvers Readied
1st|
+1|
+0|
+1|
+2|
Hitokiri State(+4), Calculating Mind(AC), Quick Draw|
2|
2

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+2|
+3|
Iaido(+1d6)Shinsoku(10ft)|
3|
2

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+2|
+3|
Uncanny Dodge, Hitokiri State 2/day, Shinsoku(20ft), Calculating Mind(Attack)|
4|
2

4th|
+4|
+1|
+2|
+4|
Iaido(+2d6), Shinsoku(30ft)|
5|
3

5th|
+5|
+1|
+3|
+4|
Shinsoku(40ft), Calculating Mind(Damage)|
6|
3

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+3|
+5|
Iaido(+3d6), Lightning Strike, Shinsoku(50ft)|
7|
4

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+3|
+5|
Improved Uncanny Dodge, Hitokiri State 3/day, Shinsoku(60ft), Calculating Mind(Reflexes)|
8|
4

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+4|
+6|
Iaido(+4d6), Shinsoku(70ft), Spring Attack|
9|
5

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+4|
+6|
Hitokiri State(+6), Shinsoku(80ft), Calculating Mind(Initiative)|
10|
5

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+4|
+7|
Iaido(+5d6), Shinsoku(90ft)|
11|
6

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+5|
+7|
Hitokiri State 4/day, Shinsoku(100ft)|
12|
6

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+5|
+8|
Iaido(+6d6), Warrior Spirit, Shinsoku(110ft)|
13|
7

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+4|
+5|
+8|
Shinsoku(120ft)|
14|
7

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+6|
+9|
Iaido(+7d6), Shinsoku(130ft)|
15|
8

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+6|
+9|
Hitokiri State 5/day, Shinsoku(140ft)|
16|
8

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+6|
+10|
Iaido(+8d6), Shinsoku(150ft), Warrior's Heart(Self)|
17|
9

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+7|
+10|
Shinsoku(160ft)|
18|
9

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+7|
+11|
Iaido(+9d6), Hitokiri State(+8), Warrior's Heart(Ally), Shinsoku(190ft)|
19|
10

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+7|
+11|
Hitokiri State 6/day, Shinsoku(200ft)|
20|
10

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+8|
+12|
Iaido(+10d6), Shinsoku(210ft)|
21|
11[/table]

Hit Dice: D8

Class Skills
Balance(Dex); Climb(Str); Craft(Int); Diplomacy(Cha); Escape Artist(Dex); Jump(Str); Perform(Cha); Profession(Wis); Ride(Dex) Sense Motive(Wis); and Tumble(Dex).
Skill Points: 2+INT modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies
A battōsai gains simple and martial weapon proficiency. They do not have any armor proficiency.

Class Features

Hitokiri State

A state of pure, focused killing intent. For a normal warrior, this state is a detriment to her focus and abilities. For a battōsai, this state is a transformation into a killing machine. As a swift action, a battōsai can focus all of her hatred, anger, and willingness(or in some instances; eagerness) to kill in order to attain the Hitokiri State.

While within the Hitokiri State, a battōsai gains a +4 morale bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence as she becomes more in tune with the world around her. A battōsai within the Hitokiri State cannot strike for non-lethal, nor can she willingly forgo killing her enemy. The Hitokiri State lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3+INT modifier. A battōsai can end the Hitokiri State by suppressing her urge to kill as a move-equivalent action.

Whenever a battōsai ends the Hitokiri State, she suffers from a mental fatigue of restraining her killing urges. The result is a -2 penalty on Intelligence and Dexterity as her mind slows down. This mental fatigue lasts for a number of rounds equal to the time spent in the Hitokiri State. A battōsai cannot enter Hitokiri State whenever she is mentally fatigued.

At first level, a battōsai can enter Hitokiri State once a day. However, she gains an additional use of this ability at 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter(3/7/11/15/19).

At 9th level, a battōsai gains +6 to Dexterity and Intelligence instead of the normal benefits. At 18th level, this bonus increases to +8.

Calculating Mind

The true power of Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu is not in the sword, but in the swordsman. By watching her opponent, a battōsai can deduce where to place her strikes for utmost effect, be it defensive or offensive. A battōsai of first level can add his or her Intelligence modifier to her Armor Class as a morale bonus. At third level, she replaces her Strength modifier with her Intelligence modifier on melee attack rolls. At fifth level, she replaces her Strength modifier with her Intelligence Modifier on melee damage rolls. At seventh level, she may add her Intelligence Modifier onto her Reflex Saving Throws. At ninth level, she may add her Intelligence Modifier to Initiative checks. All of the above bonuses are morale-typed.

These bonuses are lost whenever the battōsai is denied her Dexterity modifier to AC.

The weight of worn armor distracts a battōsai and causes her to lose any of these bonuses. Mage Armor or a similiar spell emboldens the battōsai and causes her to act more reckless than normal, which negates the bonus gained from Calculating Mind. A battōsai can perform a Concentration check (DC 15+Bonus Provided) to retain usage of her Calculating Mind ability when subject to a magical shield or armor bonus effect.

Quick Draw

The battōsai gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat as long as she is unarmored, even if she does not normally meet the prerequisites.

Shinsoku

At 2nd level, a battōsai gains the secret of Shinsoku, or god-like speed. As a swift action, a battōsai may move up to 10ft along the ground. The battōsai may use this ability to move in a straight line in any direction, as long as they do not have blocked line of effect to that area. Any attack made in the round after a shinsoku usage counts as a charging attack.

At 3rd level and every level thereafter, the range of Shinsoku increases by 10ft.

Iaido

At 2nd level, a battōsai learns the art of drawing and attacking in one fluid motion. With this ability, a battōsai can cause severe damage to an opponent. Any time an opponent is unable to properly defend herself because she's helpless, flat-footed, or does not have a weapon drawn, then a battōsai can perform an iaido strike. To perform an iaido strike, she must have her weapon sheathed. Whenever the above conditions are met, a battōsai may draw her weapon and attack, gaining an additional d6 of damage on the attack.

At 4th level and every other level thereafter(6/8/10/12/14/16/18/20), a battōsai's iaido strike damage increases by another d6.

Armor interferes with the initial draw, and a battōsai cannot perform an iaido when armored. Bracers or gloves interfere with precise movements needed for performing iaido. As long as battōsai is wearing any bracers or gloves, she cannot perform an iaido. This ability can only be performed by a slashing weapon with a hard, wooden sheath.

Uncanny Dodge

At 3rd level, a battōsai retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a battōsai already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead. This ability does not function in armor.

Lightning Strike

At 6th level, the battōsai has become adept enough with Shinsoku to be able to perform an iaido during it's usage. By using Shinsoku to move in a straight line past her opponent, a battōsai may attempt to perform an iaido on a single opponent she passes by.

A battōsai may still attack creatures immune to critical hits, but she does not gain extra dice from her iaido attack against such creatures.

Improved Uncanny Dodge

At 7th level and higher, a battōsai can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the battōsai by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has battōsai levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character. This ability does not function in armor.

Spring Attack

At 8th level, a battōsai gains this feat as a bonus feat whether or not she meets the prerequisites. This feat does not function if she wears any type of armor.

Warrior Spirit

At 12th level, a battōsai can harness the power of her warrior spirit. As a full-round action, a battōsai in Hitokiri State can attempt to demoralize those around her. Any creature within 120ft must perform a will saving throw with a DC of 10+1/2 battōsai level+CHA. Failure means that the creature is overwhelmed by the battōsai's killing intent and is stunned for one round. Success means that the creature is only dazed for one round.

This ability can be used once an encounter.

Warrior Heart

At 16th level, a battōsai's warrior's heart becomes evident. As a full-round action, a battōsai can shake off an effect that would normally debilitate her. This ability can cancel the following effects, as long as they last longer than one round: Stunned, Dazed, Shaken, Panicked, Fascinated, Charmed, or Dominated. This is a purely mental action and can be performed as long as the battōsai is conscious.

This ability can be used three times an encounter.

At 18th level, a battōsai becomes capable of using this ability upon one ally within 30ft.

This ability can be used once an encounter.

Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu Maneuvers

These are the techniques a battōsai learns throughout her career as a student of Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu. They are learned in order from top to bottom. The save for a maneuver is 10+1/2 Battōsai level+INT.

A battōsai recovers all of her expended maneuvers by expending her swift action and immediately attacking an opponent with a standard action. Or the battōsai can choose to sheathe her sword and focus her mind for a second as a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Each choice has the same result of recovering all of her expended maneuvers. She cannot initiate a maneuver while recovering her maneuvers.

Air Dragon Strike
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 1
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: 60ft
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

The battōsai cuts the air with such speed that she forms a vacuum that cuts her victim. As part of this maneuver, the battōsai performs a normal melee attack against the opponent's touch AC. Should she succeed, the battōsai deals her normal melee damage with a -4 penalty due to using air rather than steel.

Sword Catching Grasp
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 1
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: 60ft
Target: One creature

A battōsai can disarm his opponent by catching their weapon with both hands. To use this maneuver, an opponent must be attacking with a manufactured weapon. As a swift action, a battōsai can attempt to disarm his opponent without provoking an attack of opportunity. A battōsai gains a +4 bonus on the disarm attempt when using this maneuver.

Reversing Cut
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Counter)
Level: Battōsai 2
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Melee
Target: One manufactured object
Sword Status: Unsheathed before attacking.

This maneuver allows a battōsai to sunder an object and repair it as a full-round action. As part of this maneuver, the battōsai makes a sunder attempt against an object without provoking any attacks of opportunity. If successful and the object is destroyed, then the object is reformed at the end of his turn.

Double Dragon Strike
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 3
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: Melee
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

The twin dragons of Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu allows a battōsai to perform iaido without risking failure by attacking with both sword and sheath. As part of this maneuver, make two attack rolls against your opponent. If you choose to take the highest result, then your attack deals non-lethal damage regardless of other effects. If you choose the lower result, then your opponent is flat-footed against your attack.

You must still beat your opponent's AC to hit with this maneuver.

Dragon Hammer Strike
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 4
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: 30ft
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Unsheathed before attacking.

As part of this maneuver, you must make a jump check. If your check result exceeds your opponent's AC, then you may make a single melee attack at your highest attack bonus. If your attack hits, it deals an extra 10 points of damage and ignores damage reduction.

Earth Dragon Strike
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 5
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: 120ft
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

As part of this maneuver, make a ranged attack roll against your target's flat-footed AC. Should your attack succeed, you deal 3d8 points of bludgeoning damage to the target, which must then make a Fortitude Save or be dazed for one round.

Flying Dragon Strike
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 6
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: 60ft
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

Make a ranged attack roll against a single opponent. If you hit, your opponent takes an additional 2d10 points of damage and must make a Fortitude Save or be sickened for one round. After performing this maneuver, your sword lands within five feet of the target.

Dragon Hammer Strike - Tragedy
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 7
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: 30ft
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Unsheathed before attacking.

As part of this maneuver, you must make a jump check. If your check result exceeds your opponent's AC, then you may make a single melee attack at your highest attack bonus. If your attack hits, it deals an extra 30 points of damage and ignores damage reduction. Your target must make a Fortitude Save at the end of your turn. If they fail, then they take five points of damage per round as they begin to bleed out. Bleeding can be stopped with a Heal check at a DC equal to the original Fortitude Save. Creatures immune to critical hits automatically succeed on Fortitude Saves versus this maneuver's effect.

Zantetsu
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Boost)
Level: Battōsai 8
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: Self

The battōsai gathers his ki during his swing. Any attack performed this round ignores damage reduction. Any sunder attempt performed this round gains a +8 insight bonus as long as the object being sundered is made of steel or stone.

Soaring Dragon Flight
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 9
Initiation Action: 1 full round action
Range: Melee
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

As part of this maneuver, you must make a jump check. If your jump check must exceed your target's AC, you may make a single attack roll against your target. Your target is counted as being flat-footed for this attack, and if it hits it is an automatic critical hit. If you have sneak attack, sudden strike, or iaido, then you may apply the bonus dice from any of those abilities to this attack.

Dragon Hammer Flight-Strike
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 10
Initiation Action: 1 full round action
Range: 30ft
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

As part of this maneuver, you must make two jump checks. The first jump check must be capable of clearing the distance between you and your target, or jump over your target if it is already within your reach. The second jump check must exceed the target's AC. If both checks are successful, then you may make two attack rolls against your target's flat-footed AC. Any bonus damage from sneak attack, sudden strike, or iaido applies to both of these attacks. Both attacks deal an extra ten points of damage with this maneuver.

Double Dragon Lightning
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 11
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: Melee
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

As part of this maneuver, make an attack roll against your target. If the first attack hits, it deals no damage and you may make a second attack at your highest attack bonus. Your opponent is flat-footed for the second attack and it deals damage normally. All attacks made with this maneuver suffer a -2 penalty.

Dragon Howl Strike
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 12
Initiation Action: 1 full round action
Range: 30ft burst centered on your square.
Target: All creatures within 30ft burst.
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

When you initiate this maneuver, all creatures within a 20ft burst excluding yourself must make a Fortitude Save. Failure means they become stunned for one round. Success reduces the stun to being dazed.

Dragon Spiral Strike
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Counter)
Level: Battōsai 13
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: Melee
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

Dragon Flash Spiral
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 14
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: Melee
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

Dragon Spiral Strike - Wintry Wind
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 15
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: Melee
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

Dragon Spiral Strike - Storm
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 16
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: Melee
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

Dragon's Nest Strike
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 17
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: Melee
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Unsheathed before attacking.

Dragon's Next Strike - Strangle
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 18
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: Melee
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Unsheathed before attacking.

Nine-Headed Dragon
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 19
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: Melee
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

Dragon Flight of Heaven
Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu(Strike)
Level: Battōsai 20
Initiation Action: 1 attack action
Range: Melee
Target: One creature
Sword Status: Sheathed prior to attacking. Unsheathed after attacking.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-08, 09:17 PM
[Reserved for feats]STUFF GRR WHAT THE HECK?!

13_CBS
2007-12-09, 12:24 AM
Just a bit of nitpick...you DO realize that practitioners of Hiten Mitsurugi are not Battosai, nor are Battosai necessarily practitioners of Hiten Mitsurugi?

Xyk
2007-12-09, 01:12 AM
I like it and am intrigued. Using maneuvers as almost spells. Weird to have them go up to level 20 and just learn that new one every level. Do they get bonus maneuvers per day with a high int? and do they have to prepare them ahead of time? HD? i'd think d8 cuz this seems a bit overpowered with the "spells" and the full bab, and the awesome fighting styles. Then again, so is the monk. i dunno. I think it is as overpowered as the monk. Looks awesome, all in all. I'd play it.

EDIT: When I look at it, i'd take out the hitokiri entirely. maybe limit the special abilities a bit

Yami
2007-12-09, 01:14 AM
Indeed, a Hitokiri is an assassin, the Sword style is just that a style. Now fluff aside, onto the meat.

This seems unbalanced. I thought at first it was a bit front loaded, but you keep throwing abilities on. Now, it's not that I mind a bonus every level, but this is too much to be balance with another melee class.

You also do not forbid the use of armour with this class, merely leaving off the proficeincy. Then theres the rage like ability, int based AC bonus, etc...

Just seems too over the top.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-09, 02:52 AM
Just a bit of nitpick...you DO realize that practitioners of Hiten Mitsurugi are not Battosai, nor are Battosai necessarily practitioners of Hiten Mitsurugi?

Yes, I also realize that hitokiri is simply a title and not an actual state of being and is unique to Kenshin.

Armor: Oops, forgot to include that.

Rage: The most prominent problem with the Hitokiri State is that it does not increase CON. Honestly, I'd rather go for a barbarian for Rage than this. As is, it only offers the battōsai abit of extra damage and AC.

INT: Strength based bonuses benefit from two-handing. The INT bonus remains static and doesn't benefit from two-handing. And now that I've editted in the problem with armor, the battōsai also suffers from the same problem as monk.

Monk Overpowered: Thats a different argument for a different thread.

Bonus Maneuvers: Uh.. The maneuver system functions as ToB's maneuver system.. Oops, I just realized I forgot to include a recovery system.

HD: d8s struck me as the most reasonable. Good for a secondary melee character.

EDIT: And while I was thinking about it, a Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu practitioner would be a battōsai. Simply because everything involving Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu literally involves mastering battōjutsu in all forms.

turkishproverb
2007-12-09, 02:57 AM
Just a bit of nitpick...you DO realize that practitioners of Hiten Mitsurugi are not Battosai, nor are Battosai necessarily practitioners of Hiten Mitsurugi?

You killed a catgirl! YOU *******!

I do like the idea of a baseline one, though.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-09, 03:47 AM
Int to hit, damage, and AC at first level? That seems a bit much. Try spreading that out a bit.

Also, how does Shinsoku work? As I read it, they no longer take five-foot steps: Instead, Battosai take sixty-foot steps.

Daracaex
2007-12-09, 05:28 AM
So by 5th level this class has a 60ft instant teleport every round, leaving them with the entire round left to do whatever they want. Then, at 6th level, they can instantly perform what is essentially a sneak attack, regardless of whether the target actually is vulnerable to the conditions of said sneak attack, on anything within 60ft. And then that range only goes up from there?

You are stepping on so many toes with this class. It has mobility that surpasses a 20th level monk at 5th level; the monk should be the only class to be able to move that fast. It has a more limited version of the rogue's sneak attack with the same damage progression, at least until level 6 at which point they kill the rogue whose ability they stole and then use the remains to perform some insane ritual that makes the ability lose any limitations it ever had. Then on top of that, it has some sort of reverse rage, except they get int bonus to AC, attack, and damage, so it flips the whole thing around and makes it only slightly worse than what the Barbarian can do.

I hope I've helped put things in perspective for you. I really like the whole concept behind this class, but it is so overpowered that it could give Pun-pun a run for his money.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-09, 05:39 AM
Int to hit, damage, and AC at first level? That seems a bit much. Try spreading that out a bit.

I could spread that out across the first three levels instead.


Also, how does Shinsoku work? As I read it, they no longer take five-foot steps: Instead, Battosai take sixty-foot steps.

By expending your swift action, you move 60ft. Whatever you do after that is entirely up to you, but mostly you're just gonna be full-attacking.

Daracaex: Hey. At 1st level, a wizard. Wizard, just so I drive the point into the ground, is faster than a Monk. Expeditious Retreat, ever heard of it?

Shinsoku+Iaido: Yes, as a full round action. Note the problem with that: A full round action. Lets look at this objectively and assume the base character has 18 INT. This becomes 22 with Hitokiri State. 1d10+3d6+6 at 6th level is so broken. :smallsigh:

Rogue: Hey, look at that, he can use sneak attack more than once a round. Please, read the class before you knee-jerk. :smallannoyed:

Barbarian: The problem with your comparison to Barbarian is that Hitokiri State functions to provide an AC bonus much more than damage bonus. A Barbarian power-leap attacker will outdamage this class pretty consistently.

Arakune
2007-12-09, 10:00 AM
You do realize that his shinsoku are not that great, right?

What is great is soujirou Sukuchi (or Shakuchi, didn't remenber).

That was really great. At least change the after some levels.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-09, 10:22 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense to make a Shinsoku a move action? you are moving after all. Just make Iaido a standard action and you can still do a Shinsoku+Iaido as a full round action.
also how does Iaido work with unarmed fighters, are they always vulnerable or do they count as armed?

Xyk
2007-12-09, 12:53 PM
This ability is severely hampered by wearing armor as the weight detracts from the user's speed and ability to land a concise blow. An armor bonus to AC causes this ability to cease functioning.

Is a magical armor bonus the same, like bracers of armor which give an armor bonus.

I would change it to the others where its just an armored character may not use this.

On calculating mind, maybe have half your int to attack and damage. That is a ridiculous ability that well surpasses the monk's ac bonus. I do like the ac bonus based on int because the anime said hiten mitsrugi dealt entirely with predicting movements. where does that add damage and accuracy?

Also, I agree entirely with shinsoku being a move action but then, iaido should also be a move action as its drawing your weapon. Maybe have it so you can't attack as your standard action, because an attack after an iaido can do 1d10+1d6+1d10 at first level once per encounter or so. That is ridiculous, thats a one hit kill for anything a first level party will be facing, or a 2nd or 3rd probaby.

Something else i'd been curious about; is all this just with the katana? those are expensive and no 1st level can afford like 300gp.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-09, 01:56 PM
Is a magical armor bonus the same, like bracers of armor which give an armor bonus.

I would change it to the others where its just an armored character may not use this.

Also, I agree entirely with shinsoku being a move action but then, iaido should also be a move action as its drawing your weapon. Maybe have it so you can't attack as your standard action, because an attack after an iaido can do 1d10+1d6+1d10 at first level once per encounter or so. That is ridiculous, thats a one hit kill for anything a first level party will be facing, or a 2nd or 3rd probaby.

Something else i'd been curious about; is all this just with the katana? those are expensive and no 1st level can afford like 300gp.

I agree with your first comment, it was probably meant that way.

An Iaido does involve drawing your sword, but it is also an attack thus a standart action, the reason? you gave in your own post, otherwise you could do 2d10+1d6+3*str damage as a full attack at level 2. Making the distinction of being able to do any standard action but attacking is purpose defeating.

I hope this class doesn't force you to use a katana, it would just be that much more fun to use a mace with all this:smallsmile:.
Seriously though maybe you should limit the usable weapons to weapons you can wield in one hand, it would make sense if you based this all on kenshin, who draws his sword by launching it with his other hand.

Edit: Also a katana uses the bastard sword stats, so it costs 35 gp, more expensive then most but easily affordable, it would be rather insane if a katana would have the cost of a masterwork weapon.

CabbageTheif
2007-12-09, 02:56 PM
i am a huge fan of rurouni kenshin. and yes, what he can do is amazing, and you have mechanicly broken down all of his moves extremely well.

but kenshin is epic by the time you meet him. heck, by samuri x he is probably level 15, at the age of 15.

the bonus to speed is appropriat, the state of mind is apropriate, and th the iado is apropriate. i, unlike others, enjoy the combo of abilities. spread them out! you have 20 levels, work with them! hitokiri state starts as +1 and works up, speed starts as only +5 ft at the first level the character receives it. something to balance it out would be to say that no matter what, because of the intense training that needs to go into learrning hiten mitsurugi the only feats that the character is allowed to take are the listed ones. also, no armor at all. ac increases with dex bonus and deflection mod, but when not in fighting mode the person has an ac of 10-15. (remember the episode when we first meet sanosuke? sano was hit in the head and his natural armor made him not take damage, but when the bowl was thrown to the back of kenshins head he was willingly flat-footed, and that made his AC 10)

great idea, but like everryone has said, balance it!

Xyk
2007-12-09, 03:31 PM
Edit: Also a katana uses the bastard sword stats, so it costs 35 gp, more expensive then most but easily affordable, it would be rather insane if a katana would have the cost of a masterwork weapon.
actually a katana is a masterwork bastard sword. 400gp according to the dmg page 145. rather expensive for 1st level.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-09, 04:42 PM
actually a katana is a masterwork bastard sword. 400gp according to the dmg page 145. rather expensive for 1st level.

sheesh, the katana sure is an over-glorified sword then, it not like it was proven that a katana was the best sword ever :smallconfused: .

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-09, 10:35 PM
You do realize that his shinsoku are not that great, right?

Except for the fact that he uses Shinsoku constantly, no, it's not that great.


Wouldn't it make more sense to make a Shinsoku a move action? you are moving after all. Just make Iaido a standard action and you can still do a Shinsoku+Iaido as a full round action.
also how does Iaido work with unarmed fighters, are they always vulnerable or do they count as armed?

Shinsoku is movement so fast that it can't rightly be considered movement. It's more akin to teleportation in terms of speed. Primarily because Seta Sojiro was the only person faster than Kenshin in the entire series. Iaido is a full-round action for a good reason, primarily because it's an attack that requires you to start with your sword sheathed.

Unarmed fighters: Uh.. Not viable with this class. I should add something to mark that.


Is a magical armor bonus the same, like bracers of armor which give an armor bonus.

I would change it to the others where its just an armored character may not use this.

Yes, it is intended to restrict bracers of armor as well. Remember, any extra weight what so ever is a hinderance.


On calculating mind, maybe have half your int to attack and damage. That is a ridiculous ability that well surpasses the monk's ac bonus. I do like the ac bonus based on int because the anime said hiten mitsrugi dealt entirely with predicting movements. where does that add damage and accuracy?

... Ok. A) Monk is a joke. B) Duelist. C) Warblade. D) Swashbuckler. E) Because if you're predicting where your opponent is moving to, then you're also predicting where the best possible place to stick the pointy end of your metal stick into his body will appear. Further, INT replaces your strength bonus.


Also, I agree entirely with shinsoku being a move action but then, iaido should also be a move action as its drawing your weapon. Maybe have it so you can't attack as your standard action, because an attack after an iaido can do 1d10+1d6+1d10 at first level once per encounter or so. That is ridiculous, thats a one hit kill for anything a first level party will be facing, or a 2nd or 3rd probaby.

Iaido is the art of drawing your sword and using it to attack your enemy in the same movement. Further, it's 1d10+1d6+INT at 2nd level. Even if you had a base 18 INT, you're still not doing more damage than your barbarian companion with Power Attack.


Something else i'd been curious about; is all this just with the katana? those are expensive and no 1st level can afford like 300gp.

No. Theoretically you could use any bladed weapon with the class.


great idea, but like everryone has said, balance it!

Against what, exactly? Everyone else so far has wanted it balanced against a Monk.


An Iaido does involve drawing your sword, but it is also an attack thus a standart action, the reason? you gave in your own post, otherwise you could do 2d10+1d6+3*str damage as a full attack at level 2.[/QUOTE]

STR is entirely replaced by INT. Also I'm making a distinction that Iaido can only be performed with a bladed weapon and sheath.


sheesh, the katana sure is an over-glorified sword then, it not like it was proven that a katana was the best sword ever :smallconfused: .

He's right. It is way too expensive.

Behold_the_Void
2007-12-09, 10:57 PM
Firstly, the name just doesn't sit well with me. Have you considered something like Hiten Mitsurugi no Ken?

Why is this class designed around full-round actions? The entirety of the iaido style is a single, lethal blow, which could easily be incorporated into a regular move action, especially since Shinsoku is disgustingly broken. I'd say just increase the movement speed, you can still make that one, lethal attack with it being a move action.

Should probably have something about resheathing quickly without provoking an attack of opportunity.

If this class wants to be at all not-Kenshin specific, I'd drop the Hitokiri state. That particular mindset was brought along through years of slaughter followed by what is likely some serious post-traumatic stress disorder.

Futher, I suggested, making the damage function against enemies immune to crits and precision damage, and simply require that you strike when unsheathing your weapon to get the extra damage. Make spring attack a bonus feat or something in this case, since it'd work well with a mobile, single-strike class.

Also, I'm perplexed as to why this needs to be a base class. This could be truncated into a 10-level prestige class that would be much more suitable, since it lacks the versatility and customizability that base classes really should have.

As it stands, even by Tome of Battle comparison this class is fairly broken. It gets Swordsage maneuver progression, full BAB, Shinsoku, which is pretty hideously overpowered, and the ability to get a free Time Stands Still (which isn't necessarily terrible, but it really doesn't fit with the 1 cut flavor, I'd suggest a capstone more like the One Strike, Two Cuts that I believe the Iaijutsu Master or the Kakita Duelist prestige class had in OA). Finally, the maneuver progression you have set up is just weird, I'd make the maneuvers a special discipline that only this class gets access to, and then give the Battosai access to Diamond Mind and maybe Stone Dragon or Iron Heart. Then you can drop the abilities that duplicate effects in those disicplines.

wadledo
2007-12-09, 11:01 PM
I have suggestions:

Include shield bonus in Calculating Mind, like with Force Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#forceShield) because people are bastards.

Make Shinsoku akin to Shadow Jump, only the total per encounter as it fits slightly better methinks.

Change Iaido to say "At 4th level and every even level thereafter", just for my nit pick.

Spoilers?
Please?

Other than that?
Perfect.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-09, 11:15 PM
Firstly, the name just doesn't sit well with me. Have you considered something like Hiten Mitsurugi no Ken?

Battōsai(Noun): To master Battōjutsu in all it's forms.


Why is this class designed around full-round actions? The entirety of the iaido style is a single, lethal blow, which could easily be incorporated into a regular move action, especially since Shinsoku is disgustingly broken. I'd say just increase the movement speed, you can still make that one, lethal attack with it being a move action.

Because the entire point of an iaido is that one lethal blow. Making it a move aciton lets people go right ahead and perform two lethal blows a round.


Should probably have something about resheathing quickly without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Quick Draw.


If this class wants to be at all not-Kenshin specific, I'd drop the Hitokiri state. That particular mindset was brought along through years of slaughter followed by what is likely some serious post-traumatic stress disorder.

Which is why I have the short paragraph of flavor at the moment.


Futher, I suggested, making the damage function against enemies immune to crits and precision damage, and simply require that you strike when unsheathing your weapon to get the extra damage. Make spring attack a bonus feat or something in this case, since it'd work well with a mobile, single-strike class.

Spring Attack: No.

Precision/Crit Immunity: Impossible. Iaido involves striking the unprotected organs of your enemy in a single blow. It is precision damage.


Also, I'm perplexed as to why this needs to be a base class. This could be truncated into a 10-level prestige class that would be much more suitable, since it lacks the versatility and customizability that base classes really should have.

Because I want it to be a base class? Seriously, I've already updated Iaijutsu Master for 3.5, I don't care to do another iaido focused PrC.


It gets Swordsage maneuver progression, full BAB, Shinsoku, which is pretty hideously overpowered, and the ability to get a free Time Stands Still (which isn't necessarily terrible, but it really doesn't fit with the 1 cut flavor, I'd suggest a capstone more like the One Strike, Two Cuts that I believe the Iaijutsu Master or the Kakita Duelist prestige class had in OA).

A: It has Swordsage progression in one exclusive school.
B: Shinsoku is overpowered compared to what, precisely?
C: And Warblade doesn't have a free Time Stands Still? Oh wait. Warblade can refresh his and use it more than once an encounter. Oh the brokenness! Also: Have you watched Rurouni Kenshin before? Kenshin frequently attacks more than once, and the entire point of Nine-Headed Dragon is attacking 9 times in the space of 1 cut.


Finally, the maneuver progression you have set up is just weird, I'd make the maneuvers a special discipline that only this class gets access to, and then give the Battosai access to Diamond Mind and maybe Stone Dragon or Iron Heart. Then you can drop the abilities that duplicate effects in those disicplines.

Then you'd kill the flavor of the class. The entire point is that all they have is Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu. They don't have Stone Dragon, Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, or whatever else. They have that specific progression because they gain maneuvers in a specific order.


Include shield bonus in Calculating Mind, like with Force Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#forceShield) because people are bastards.

Forgot that.


Make Shinsoku akin to Shadow Jump, only the total per encounter as it fits slightly better methinks.

..Ya, it would make more sense being per encounter. Especially since someone could just hop around the world by spending their swift action every round..


Change Iaido to say "At 4th level and every even level thereafter", just for my nit pick.

Meh. Semantics.


Spoilers?
Please?

Around the maneuvers? I could do that.

Behold_the_Void
2007-12-09, 11:47 PM
Battōsai(Noun): To master Battōjutsu in all it's forms.

Eh, your call. It's so singularly specific since it was just Kenshin's nickname, not to mention a word invented by the mangaka specifically for the series (much like the Sakabato).


Because the entire point of an iaido is that one lethal blow. Making it a move aciton lets people go right ahead and perform two lethal blows a round.

That does this how, exactly? As I recall, a move action to move and a standard action to attack.


Quick Draw.

Doesn't negate the fact that resheathing provokes an AoO.


Which is why I have the short paragraph of flavor at the moment.

And the flavor seems off since the example we have is Kenshin, and his state was more cold dispassion, killing intent, and a belief in self-justification then, as you describe it, the focus of "all of her hatred, anger, and willingness(or in some instances; eagerness) to kill in order to attain the Hitokiri State." The flavor specifically suggests rage, which, during the time Kenshin spent as the Battosai, there was none. During the period of the Rurouni Kenshin story arc, anger simply becomes a trigger for the reversion to this state.

If you really feel it adds to the class, sure, but it just feels off from my perspective.


Spring Attack: No.

Precision/Crit Immunity: Impossible. Iaido involves striking the unprotected organs of your enemy in a single blow. It is precision damage.

And what's wrong with spring attack? Running past someone and slicing them in two as you go is pretty standard for both samurai anime and Kenshin in particular.

Not organs, necessarily. Katana, even historically, were damn sharp. Dismemberment isn't too far away when someone's got 4 feet of steel designed specifically around the sharpness of a blade. Often overexaggerated in contemporary fiction yes, but katana are for slicing things, and Kenshin routinely uses the example of cutting thick and solid steel. How is the ability to cut steel through speed and force of blade any different from cutting, for example, a stone golem?


Because I want it to be a base class? Seriously, I've already updated Iaijutsu Master for 3.5, I don't care to do another iaido focused PrC.

Fair enough.


A: It has Swordsage progression in one exclusive school.
B: Shinsoku is overpowered compared to what, precisely?
C: And Warblade doesn't have a free Time Stands Still? Oh wait. Warblade can refresh his and use it more than once an encounter. Oh the brokenness! Also: Have you watched Rurouni Kenshin before? Kenshin frequently attacks more than once, and the entire point of Nine-Headed Dragon is attacking 9 times in the space of 1 cut.

A: Then why give it the progression at all? Why not just give it Hiten Mitsurugi Techniques at the levels you've already dictated.
B: Shadow Blink, obtained at earliest level 13 for 50 feet of movement as a Swift Action. The earlier ones are based off a standard at earliest level 3 and move-action at earliest level 9. Also, a Swordsage can only do it once every other round (at a severe crippling of his ability to do anything else) and a Warblade can theoretically do it every round by burning the feats to get access to Shadow Hand and crippling his ability to use any other maneuver because he has to refresh as a normal attack action. This guy can, under any normal combat circumstances, cover pretty much the entire field every turn without making any real sacrifices (except on the off-chance he really wants to sunder something).
C: Time Stands Still comparison was more the overall class than being overpowered itself. My primary complaint is flavor. Yes, I have read the Kenshin manga and watched all of the anime I care to watch (up through Kyoto arc before filler death). There is the one technique you mention. Beyond that? One cut. And you have a maneuver for the 9 cuts in one, so there you go. I don't see the point of giving a free Time Stands Still when the flavor of the class is, with only one exception, devoted to the single, perfect cut.


Then you'd kill the flavor of the class. The entire point is that all they have is Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu. They don't have Stone Dragon, Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, or whatever else. They have that specific progression because they gain maneuvers in a specific order.

Again, why maneuver progression at all? It's just an illusion of choice to make you think that you can do more than feats and skills to make this class not identical to every other member of this class out there. As it stands, you're getting a specified maneuver every level. Unless, of course, you want to give people the option of taking martial study, in which case the flavor goes out the window once again as people start taking other maneuvers than the ones you already specified.

NoDot
2007-12-10, 12:48 AM
It's so singularly specific since it was just Kenshin's nickname,Also, Hiten Mitsuryugi isn't just batotsu techniques; Kenshin was just particularly fond of them.

(I'm gonna get murdered for this spelling...)

Nostri
2007-12-10, 01:33 PM
The major issue I have with this class is the Shinsoku. I'm all for people moving at ungodly speeds (I find it entertaining personally) but I think the level at which Shinsoku gets to and how fast it gets there. I've got two reasons for this, the first one is purely mechanical- by 20th level a Battōsai could move 330ft per round. (This is about 33 miles per hour with more then half of it being instantaneously.) The other thing is that I don't think I've seen Kenshin go that fast and move more then 60 ft. I'd recommend decreasing how fast Shinsoku increases.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-11, 05:46 PM
Eh, your call. It's so singularly specific since it was just Kenshin's nickname, not to mention a word invented by the mangaka specifically for the series (much like the Sakabato).

Because they stuck two words together? Besides, using battōsai reduces the singularity of Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu Student. Because, just like new-age Sith, there can only be two.


That does this how, exactly? As I recall, a move action to move and a standard action to attack.

Anything that gives you a standard action lets you iaido twice? Battle Belt comes to mind, that this class would have access to alone. Other things require caster-buddies.


Doesn't negate the fact that resheathing provokes an AoO.

It doesn't? Coulda sworn Quick Draw removed AoOs for drawing/replacing your weapon. Ah well, I'll add something in about that then.


The flavor specifically suggests rage, which, during the time Kenshin spent as the Battosai, there was none. During the period of the Rurouni Kenshin story arc, anger simply becomes a trigger for the reversion to this state.

Cold rage is rage none the less. It doesn't have to be hot-blooded declarations of vengeance to be rage. Samurai X's OVAs do portray a distinctly cold raging Kenshin.


And what's wrong with spring attack? Running past someone and slicing them in two as you go is pretty standard for both samurai anime and Kenshin in particular.

That it is, but I'm not particularly fond of the feat as it is in D&D. Mostly because it's pretty mechanically weak for all those prerequisites. I might do something about Spring Attack.


Often overexaggerated in contemporary fiction yes, but katana are for slicing things, and Kenshin routinely uses the example of cutting thick and solid steel. How is the ability to cut steel through speed and force of blade any different from cutting, for example, a stone golem?

Because you're not doing any particular 'damage' to the golem. It continues to function, sans an arm or leg. A human being faced with dismemberment ceases to function. It'd be like trying to cut something with a grossly inhuman physiology, you don't know whether what you cut off is even vital or not.


A: Then why give it the progression at all? Why not just give it Hiten Mitsurugi Techniques at the levels you've already dictated.

That would clutter up the "Special" list even more than it is now. The progression ranking is mostly for my own benefit than anything else. Further, it lets me treat them as maneuvers(and thus lets me build them as an already recognized system).


B: Shadow Blink, obtained at earliest level 13 for 50 feet of movement as a Swift Action.

Hmm.. True, I guess I could change Lightning Blade. Possibly let that deal with the problems of AoOs post-sheathing.

But there is one thing that Shadow Blink will always have over Shinsoku. Shadow Blink(and it's lesser forms) will always let you teleport upward. Possibly to attack a flying enemy. Shinsoku functions only along the ground, and does not allow upward movement what-so-ever.


C: Time Stands Still comparison was more the overall class than being overpowered itself. My primary complaint is flavor. Yes, I have read the Kenshin manga and watched all of the anime I care to watch (up through Kyoto arc before filler death). There is the one technique you mention. Beyond that? One cut. And you have a maneuver for the 9 cuts in one, so there you go. I don't see the point of giving a free Time Stands Still when the flavor of the class is, with only one exception, devoted to the single, perfect cut.

Just because it's focused on one cut doesn't remove the primary-nay, driving force-behind any and all of the Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu techniques. Speed. And what is the ultimate representation in speed? It may be based off Kenshin, but it's not all entirely Kenshin.


Again, why maneuver progression at all?

See my previous answer. Mostly ease of organization on my part.

NoDot: Uh.. Four of twelve aren't based on battōjutsu. The majority wins. Besides that, the succession technique of the style is battōjutsu in it's purest form.

DracoDei
2007-12-11, 05:59 PM
My gut reaction is that this is balanced, but don't quote me on that.
I don't really know how important movement is as an ability in most campaigns, but yeah, this is very fast. One simple tweak might be to only allow it in the Hitokiri State. Does Kenshin ever run across town to arrive in the nick of time leaving a big trail of dust behind him(I have only seen a few episodes.)? If he only is lightning fast in combat, then do as I suggested.

Stycotl
2007-12-11, 06:22 PM
access to other disciplines or not, it doesn't really matter. that is all up to the creator of the discipline and the individual dm.

question though: what is the reason for no martial stances? tell me if i missed something here.

other than that, i enjoy the concept. it makes me hesitate with the planned build of one of the npc's i'm about to run....

aaron out.

Behold_the_Void
2007-12-11, 06:46 PM
Anything that gives you a standard action lets you iaido twice? Battle Belt comes to mind, that this class would have access to alone. Other things require caster-buddies.

Oh right, the Battle Belt. I tend to forget that it exists because I'd never allow it. Remember though, resheathing is, as I recall, a move action. Unless the class picks up the swift resheathing thing, it's still only one Iaido a round.


Cold rage is rage none the less. It doesn't have to be hot-blooded declarations of vengeance to be rage. Samurai X's OVAs do portray a distinctly cold raging Kenshin.

Ah, see, difference of opinion here. I always saw his behavior in Samurai X as very calm and calculated, without any emotion involved at all.


That it is, but I'm not particularly fond of the feat as it is in D&D. Mostly because it's pretty mechanically weak for all those prerequisites. I might do something about Spring Attack.

I'm just suggesting you give it Spring Attack as a bonus feat around early-to-mid levels, even if they don't have the prereqs. And have them lose the benefit from the feat if they don certain armor armor or something.


Because you're not doing any particular 'damage' to the golem. It continues to function, sans an arm or leg. A human being faced with dismemberment ceases to function. It'd be like trying to cut something with a grossly inhuman physiology, you don't know whether what you cut off is even vital or not.

My argument here is that you're still unleashing a savage cut and taking a massive chunk out of the thing. While the Fighter is power attacking to punch through, the Battosai just runs up and cuts the thing in half.


That would clutter up the "Special" list even more than it is now. The progression ranking is mostly for my own benefit than anything else. Further, it lets me treat them as maneuvers(and thus lets me build them as an already recognized system).

Fair enough.


But there is one thing that Shadow Blink will always have over Shinsoku. Shadow Blink(and it's lesser forms) will always let you teleport upward. Possibly to attack a flying enemy. Shinsoku functions only along the ground, and does not allow upward movement what-so-ever.

Well aware of that, but I don't think the trade off is equivalent to constant, instantaneous movement at up to 4 times the speed.


Just because it's focused on one cut doesn't remove the primary-nay, driving force-behind any and all of the Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu techniques. Speed. And what is the ultimate representation in speed? It may be based off Kenshin, but it's not all entirely Kenshin.

I'm still more inclined to think that something that gives Iaido bonuses more often would work better, thematically.

Cespenar
2007-12-12, 06:24 PM
Great class, good basis, since it's Rurouni Kenshin :smallbiggrin:, but I seem to have a few nitpicks on my own.

-Maneuvers shouldn't be able to used during the Hitokiri state (or higher level maneuvers), since the final technique required one to have "an open heart" or something along those lines.

-Iaido Strike should be able to damage constructs just as well, because while the reason of sneak attack to not do so, is because it attacks the vital organs which requires a humanoid anatomy; Iaido Strike is basically the sword drawn from the sheath with an abnormal speed, which, physically, is no different than Power Attack (for example), like it is said.

-Again as said before, the capstone ability seems redundant, with all the techniques already specified. If you don't mind, I have an idea of such:

+ Draw Warrior's Heart back into level 16, and allow it to be also used to resurrect the self or an ally in level 20. That comes from the duel with Shishio, obviously.

-While Shinsoku seems nice, 210 feet is too much, even for level 20. Moreover, god-like speed isn't really a technique. It's just the capability of the particular person to move insanely fast. What I'd suggest:

+ Give a speed increase, just like monk, with the ability to use Iaido Strike anytime in that movement.

-With all those bonuses to speed, reflexes seem overlooked. Maybe an ability to add his Intelligence modifier and something else (increasing with level) to his initiative can be added.

-Oh, and Reflex save must be good. Average doesn't cut it.


It's all for now. You have made a great class regardless.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-13, 03:08 AM
Oh right, the Battle Belt. I tend to forget that it exists because I'd never allow it. Remember though, resheathing is, as I recall, a move action. Unless the class picks up the swift resheathing thing, it's still only one Iaido a round.

Hmm.. True. Ya, I'll just leave it without swift resheathing and change Iaido to a Standard action.


I'm just suggesting you give it Spring Attack as a bonus feat around early-to-mid levels, even if they don't have the prereqs. And have them lose the benefit from the feat if they don certain armor or something.

Currently, the class can't wear armor of any type(including bracers of armor) so that isn't a big deal. But I'll think about it.


My argument here is that you're still unleashing a savage cut and taking a massive chunk out of the thing. While the Fighter is power attacking to punch through, the Battosai just runs up and cuts the thing in half.

That would make sense, I guess I can make it apply to non-crit immune creatures as well.


Well aware of that, but I don't think the trade off is equivalent to constant, instantaneous movement at up to 4 times the speed.[/color]

I would, mostly because it renders the ability useless against anything with Flight.

[QUOTE=Behold_the_Void;3645345]I'm still more inclined to think that something that gives Iaido bonuses more often would work better, thematically.

How about a Stance for that instead? I plan to have two stances specific to the class, which were primarily designed around assisting it's iaido ability.


Maneuvers shouldn't be able to used during the Hitokiri state (or higher level maneuvers), since the final technique required one to have "an open heart" or something along those lines.

Yes, but all the other Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu techniques were available for his use. I'll add something into Dragon Flight of Heaven about not being usable in Hitokiri State.


Draw Warrior's Heart back into level 16, and allow it to be also used to resurrect the self or an ally in level 20. That comes from the duel with Shishio, obviously.

Hm.


Give a speed increase, just like monk, with the ability to use Iaido Strike anytime in that movement.

I'm not really a fan of base speed increases.


With all those bonuses to speed, reflexes seem overlooked. Maybe an ability to add his Intelligence modifier and something else (increasing with level) to his initiative can be added.

I did forget Reflex saves and initiative.

EDIT: I decided against changing Iaido to a standard action. Instead, it applies whenever the battōsai's sword is sheathed and her opponent is flat-footed, doesn't have a weapon drawn, or helpless.

Behold_the_Void
2007-12-13, 04:30 AM
I would, mostly because it renders the ability useless against anything with Flight.

And what happens when they get a Fly spell cast on them or pick up Wings of Flight? Suddenly, they're zipping through the air at ungodly speeds.

And still, think about it. Instantaneous movement up to 4 times what you can get with Shadow Blink every round. That's really, really high. Even if it is just land speed. I think that's way better than being able to go up 50 feet once every two rounds at the expense of crippling your entire ability to do anything else. Not to mention the fact that once you go up, you'll fall right back down.

Also, I wouldn't require the flat-footed thing. Just make it a flat bonus to damage since you're only getting one attack and are already required to unsheathe to execute it anyway.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-13, 04:46 AM
I can see balance-wise why you might not want an armor bonus on this class, but flavor wise you have no justification for making things like mage armor or bracers of armor of a ring of shield not work. Those force effects are weightless. How is wearing a pair of bracers that create a weightless field of force more restricting than a normal pair of bracers?

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-13, 12:52 PM
And what happens when they get a Fly spell cast on them or pick up Wings of Flight? Suddenly, they're zipping through the air at ungodly speeds.

Re-read the ability description. "Along the ground" is very specific and has a very good reason for being there.


And still, think about it. Instantaneous movement up to 4 times what you can get with Shadow Blink every round. That's really, really high. Even if it is just land speed. I think that's way better than being able to go up 50 feet once every two rounds at the expense of crippling your entire ability to do anything else. Not to mention the fact that once you go up, you'll fall right back down.

Yes, but Shadow Blink isn't defeated by a third level spell. Even if you are gonna fall down, you're still going to get one attack against your enemy. You just have to make it count(Five Shadow Ice Enervation Strike anyone?)


I can see balance-wise why you might not want an armor bonus on this class, but flavor wise you have no justification for making things like mage armor or bracers of armor of a ring of shield not work. Those force effects are weightless. How is wearing a pair of bracers that create a weightless field of force more restricting than a normal pair of bracers?

The ring of shield is entirely impossible. You'd have to aim your fist at whatever is attacking you to interpose the mini-wall of force between the two of you.

As for mage armor, that would require a caster buddy. And frankly, what wizard at any level is gonna cast mage armor on the fighter and not himself?

Bracers of Armor: The force effect isn't the problem. The problem is the bracers.

DracoDei
2007-12-13, 02:03 PM
As for mage armor, that would require a caster buddy. And frankly, what wizard at any level is gonna cast mage armor on the fighter and not himself?

Any one high enough level that he is already wearing Bracers of Armor +4. Or a potion.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-14, 01:11 AM
The ring of shield is entirely impossible. You'd have to aim your fist at whatever is attacking you to interpose the mini-wall of force between the two of you.

You do realize this is a core item, right?


As for mage armor, that would require a caster buddy. And frankly, what wizard at any level is gonna cast mage armor on the fighter and not himself?

Since when is a first level spell slot a big deal? And even if it is, the problem remains that a mage armor spell, which has 0 effect on mobility, penalizes this class. That makes no sense, regardless of whether or not you would be likely to get a mage armor cast. If the party wizard isn't a team player, just buy a pearl of power- problem solved.


Bracers of Armor: The force effect isn't the problem. The problem is the bracers.

No, the problem is the force effect. The bracers themselves don't provide an armor bonus. This class could wear bracers of archery, or just plain normal bracers, and not be penalized. The class is only penalized if it has an armor bonus. Bracers of armor provide an armor bonus, and normal bracers do not. I seem to remember saying that before . . .


How is wearing a pair of bracers that create a weightless field of force more restricting than a normal pair of bracers?

EDIt- Just for reference:


An armor or shield bonus to AC causes this ability to cease functioning.

Is the reasoning here because there are balance issues with having armor or shield bonuses to AC with this class, or because you think that bracers would hinder the character. If it is the former, then you need to do a better job explaining how a weightless field hinders your mobility, or rebalance the class so that having a mage armor spell won't throw off the balance of the class. If it is the latter, you need to fordbid the class from wearing bracers, not just from wearing bracers that happen to have a specific magical effect.

There are similar issues with a shield spell, although getting a shield spell requires multiclassing or other wierd options, since it is a range personal spell.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-15, 06:55 AM
Or a potion.

I can give you that. But I don't know alot of wizards who use first level slots for Mage Armor at higher levels.


You do realize this is a core item, right?

And? Rather than be condescending, I'd look at what I said about the item itself. The problem is the fact that you must interpose a shield between yourself and your opponent by pointing your finger/fist/what-have-you toward your enemy. Which removes focus from the sword and is just an incredibly awkward way of fighting in general.


Since when is a first level spell slot a big deal? And even if it is, the problem remains that a mage armor spell, which has 0 effect on mobility, penalizes this class. That makes no sense, regardless of whether or not you would be likely to get a mage armor cast. If the party wizard isn't a team player, just buy a pearl of power- problem solved.

How many wizards prepare Mage Armor for their allies? It's distinctly a squishy-person spell.


No, the problem is the force effect. The bracers themselves don't provide an armor bonus. This class could wear bracers of archery, or just plain normal bracers, and not be penalized. The class is only penalized if it has an armor bonus. Bracers of armor provide an armor bonus, and normal bracers do not. I seem to remember saying that before . . .

Where did I say the bracers provided an armor bonus? I said the bracers are the problem because you have two pounds of metal on your wrists. If you really feel that way about it, I can add a line about being unable to wear bracers as well. But that seems kinda silly.


Is the reasoning here because there are balance issues with having armor or shield bonuses to AC with this class, or because you think that bracers would hinder the character.

Primarily the reason is due to balance issues with armor-/shield- bonuses.

Arakune
2007-12-15, 07:19 AM
Except for the fact that he uses Shinsoku constantly, no, it's not that great.



Do you read the rest of my post? Sure, he was fast. But Soujirou was faster! MUCH faster. That's why I asked to change the names at the later levels.

PhallicWarrior
2007-12-15, 10:44 PM
It's been years since I saw that show, so I forget. How did he manage to move faster than Kenshin, exactly?

EvilElitest
2007-12-15, 10:48 PM
Just a bit of nitpick...you DO realize that practitioners of Hiten Mitsurugi are not Battosai, nor are Battosai necessarily practitioners of Hiten Mitsurugi?

I thought Battosai were just super assassins who used that special dueling movie, while Hiten Mitsurugi was a separate style entirely. Kenshin happens to be both
from,
EE

Cespenar
2007-12-16, 06:04 AM
It's been years since I saw that show, so I forget. How did he manage to move faster than Kenshin, exactly?

His technique, Shukuchi, was faster than Kenshin's Shinsoku. How is running a technique, don't ask me, but he is one of the few who are faster than Kenshin.


I thought Battosai were just super assassins who used that special dueling movie, while Hiten Mitsurugi was a separate style entirely. Kenshin happens to be both
from,
EE


Battousai means "one who mastered Battoujutsu", not necessarily an assassin. Hiten Mitsurugi is another style, correct, but the way I see it, ZeroNumerous well knows that too but chooses to make it as he did.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-16, 06:28 AM
Where did I say the bracers provided an armor bonus? I said the bracers are the problem because you have two pounds of metal on your wrists. If you really feel that way about it, I can add a line about being unable to wear bracers as well. But that seems kinda silly.

You may think it is silly to put that line in there, but if you don't, the class lacks internal consistency. I think it is far sillier to make a distinction between one type of metal bracers and another type of metal bracers.

And there is still the mage armor issue. You may think it is unusual for that to be viable, but if a Battosai wants to have a mage armor, he could dip a level of sorcerer, buy a level one Pearl of Power for the party wizard to hit him with mage armor, stock up on potions, get a wand and UMD, etc.

Even if it is a balance issue, you don't have any fluff supporting why mage armor and shield cause you to lose various bonuses. For conistency and completeness sake, you need to come up with a reason those shouldn't apply. "Well, a battosai has no way to get them, so it doesn't matter" is both irrelevant and false.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-16, 06:50 AM
Stuff

I added some things in Calculating Mind and Iaido to cover bracers/gloves/armor-shield bonuses.


Do you read the rest of my post? Sure, he was fast. But Soujirou was faster! MUCH faster. That's why I asked to change the names at the later levels.

I did read the rest of your post. I just didn't care. Names don't get changed just because.

Ozymandias
2007-12-16, 10:23 AM
It still doesn't really make sense; if a wizard tossed a mage armor on a sleeping battōsai, he/she wouldn't act more recklessly. That would only apply if the Battōsai were aware of his/her armor bonus, and to be honest it's silly to think that an INT-focused class would make that kind of tactical error (so, I have 20 Intelligence - I hope no one casts mage armor, or I'd be easier to hit!) sort of seems strange. I remember that Hiko talked about that giant guy in the manga being weakened by his armor, but I doubt it would be very hard to just ignore the magical effect, especially since it's invisible and intangible.

Sōjirō was the fastest character in the series, but even he wasn't that fast; he was somewhat faster than Okubō's horses (speed even without dragging the carriage, galloping, at most around 300 ft/rnd). Kenshin himself was quite impressed that Sōjirō was able to catch the carriage, so it's unlikely he (Kenshin) would be able to mimic the feat, while a level 18 Battōsai would have no problem moving 310 feet per round, without the run feat. Adding in a load for the horses (they were pulling a carriage) makes this even more stark. The Battōsai is too fast.

Nitpick: It should be Iaijutsu instead of Iaidō. This is highlighted in the Raijūta arc of the manga and in the real-life Kawakami Gensai where the differences between "dō" and "jutsu" are a major plot point or point of view, respectively. In either case, Kenshin (or his real-life counterpart) use the later.

Tyonisius
2007-12-16, 03:15 PM
I definitely like the flavor of the class. Some things make it seem a bit over powered (they've already been mentioned by others so I won't mention them again) but to be sure I'd have to see it used in a regular campaign.

The only thing that I'm not following 100% is the magical armor/shield bonuses restriction. I understand that you are worried about balance and I am guessing this is due to the armor bonuses gained when in the Hitori State. Personally, I would change the Hitokiri State (perhaps reduce the stat gains, the number of times it can be used, or its length) and allow the wearing of magic armor/shield bonuses. I haven't done all the math yet, and I'll edit once I have, but I think denying them any form of magical armor/shield bonus is going to cause their AC to suffer even while in the Hitokiri state and even more so out of it. One more thing, I may have missed it, but what about using an animated shield? Also, what about a monk's belt?

I'm not sure who said it, but I agree that the reasoning behind why they can't have magical armor/shield bonuses (not the balance issue but the in-game reasoning) is fairly weak. Not being able to wear armor makes sense to me though.

Anyway, like I said, I definitely like the flavor of the class and it seems fairly well built, I'll probably ninja it for a future campaign as a reoccuring badguy...

Edit: Another possible way to edit it so that allowing the Battōsai to wear magical armor/shield bonuses won't unbalance it would be to change the way the Hitokiri state works. Have it be a Dex bonus and a straight damage/attack bonus.

On another note, I am going to mention the Shinsoku. I think cutting the distance to +5 feet every level after 2nd, and then doubling that distance while in the Hitokiri would add balance and flavor to the Hitokiri state.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-16, 03:35 PM
That would only apply if the Battōsai were aware of his/her armor bonus, and to be honest it's silly to think that an INT-focused class would make that kind of tactical error (so, I have 20 Intelligence - I hope no one casts mage armor, or I'd be easier to hit!) sort of seems strange

You'd quickly become aware of your armor bonus when attacked. The surprise of a magical force is enough to upset the focus of mind needed to use Calculating Mind(thus explaining why you don't get the bonus against that attack). Further, Intelligence has no bearing on arrogance or recklessness. As Wisdom(and by proxy, Will Saves) are based on inituitiveness, then I would think your Wisdom score would determine arrogance before Intelligence factors in.

Speed: Hey guess what. It's D&D. Liberates were taken.

Nitpick: You're wrong, actually. It should be battōjutsu, because Iaijutsu and Iaido is a recent creation from the revamp of Kendo post-Meiji era. But hey, I don't care, so I named it so people would be familiar with it.

Animated Shield: Ever try to fight while something periodically and randomly flies about around your face? Or something instanteously interposing itself between you and your opponent?

Monk's Belt: The monk's AC bonus is untyped, so it's possible. Infact, one could take the Cardemine Monk feat and buy a monk's belt for INT to AC twice.

EDIT: How would the Hitokiri State increase speed? :smallconfused:

Tyonisius
2007-12-16, 04:02 PM
EDIT: How would the Hitokiri State increase speed? :smallconfused:

Take liberties?

Edit What book is Cardemine Monk in?

Cespenar
2007-12-16, 04:48 PM
EDIT: How would the Hitokiri State increase speed? :smallconfused:

I presume that he refers to that instance with Saitoh, when Kenshin got faster and faster as he got more angry. A bonus to dexterity is fine, but he also moved faster, which was Tyonisius' point (if I've not misunderstood).

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-16, 08:06 PM
Take liberties?

Edit What book is Cardemine Monk in?

Uh.. Something from Forgotten Realms. I don't care to remember. The important thing is all Monk abilities are calculated through Intelligence rather than Wisdom.


I presume that he refers to that instance with Saitoh, when Kenshin got faster and faster as he got more angry. A bonus to dexterity is fine, but he also moved faster, which was Tyonisius' point (if I've not misunderstood).

Meh. No.

Tyonisius
2007-12-16, 08:18 PM
I presume that he refers to that instance with Saitoh, when Kenshin got faster and faster as he got more angry. A bonus to dexterity is fine, but he also moved faster, which was Tyonisius' point (if I've not misunderstood).

Thank you for confirming. I thought I was making this up. Anyway, I don't think he plans to give anymore than he has, and the good news is that he doesn't have to cause he won't be playing in campaigns with us. If the way it is now works for him then that is all that matters.

Have fun with it, Zero! I'm gonna ninja it for later use.

Ozymandias
2007-12-16, 10:23 PM
You'd quickly become aware of your armor bonus when attacked. The surprise of a magical force is enough to upset the focus of mind needed to use Calculating Mind(thus explaining why you don't get the bonus against that attack). Further, Intelligence has no bearing on arrogance or recklessness. As Wisdom(and by proxy, Will Saves) are based on inituitiveness, then I would think your Wisdom score would determine arrogance before Intelligence factors in.

Speed: Hey guess what. It's D&D. Liberates were taken.

Nitpick: You're wrong, actually. It should be battōjutsu, because Iaijutsu and Iaido is a recent creation from the revamp of Kendo post-Meiji era. But hey, I don't care, so I named it so people would be familiar with it.


I suppose that's one opinion on the armor bonus (the fact that Intelligence affects how well one reasons led me to a different conclusion), but I'd allow a concentration check to ignore the bonus or something. I mean, having invisible magical armor doesn't hamper other classes' Dex or Wis bonuses. I understand that this is supposed to more conscious and less intuitive, but I'd think that a swordsman would be able to adapt to the force, sort of like proficiency in armor. That gets somewhat complicated, though. Eh, it's your call.

On the speed thing, I was just trying to provide some support for the other people's claims that it's imbalanced. Kenshin was agile but this classes abilities give the battōsai speed well beyond anything he ever displayed. Maybe if you allowed shinsoku to only be used in hitokiri state or limit it to uses/encounter or something.

Also, I think you're wrong about the history of iaijutsu. The metamorphoses of -jutsu into -dō was prevalent in the Meiji era, but it wasn't from kendō into iaijutsu and iaidō, it was kenjutsu into kendō, iaijutsu into iaidō, and the according shifts in focus from bokken to shinai, tameshigiri to kata, etc. Rule of thumb - dō signifies art, jutsu signifies technique. The latter is more appropriate. Also, if you really want people to be familiar with it, name it battōjutsu or draw-cut - all the maneuvers are in English. Or make it a stance.

Man, Firefox hates Japanese:smallsigh: .

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-17, 03:16 AM
but I'd allow a concentration check to ignore the bonus or something.

Sure, why not. It might be useful for the player to put some cross-class ranks in Concentration..


Maybe if you allowed shinsoku to only be used in hitokiri state or limit it to uses/encounter or something.

I fail to see how running along the ground at any speed is imbalanced beyond fifth level(at which point the battōsai's speed is hardly a great thing.


Also, if you really want people to be familiar with it, name it battōjutsu or draw-cut - all the maneuvers are in English. Or make it a stance.

Man, Firefox hates Japanese:smallsigh: .

On the iaijutsu->iaido movement: You misunderstood what I was saying. I said Iaijutsu became Iaido during the Meiji because Kenjutsu became Kendo. It's a transition of a valid killing technique over to a superfluous art.

English: Primarily because it's easier for people to understand. If I wrote all their romanji names, then people would adopt the english translation anyway because it's easier to speak for an English speaking native.

Firefox: Yes. Windows does too.

Funnily enough: I never got around to finishing the technique list..

Tyonisius
2007-12-17, 01:13 PM
Funnily enough: I never got around to finishing the technique list..

Are you going to?

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-18, 02:53 AM
Are you going to?

Meh. I'd rather fix the class itself before getting into techniques.

Perducci
2007-12-18, 03:10 AM
Just thought I'd let you know that I'm really enjoying the development of this class. I'm pretty new to Dnd in general and have no experience homebrewing so I can't really see anything wrong with this class. All I know is that I've got a Battosai in the works and that I can't wait to see the final product.

Keep up the good work.

Tyonisius
2007-12-19, 09:50 AM
Meh. I'd rather fix the class itself before getting into techniques.

I didn't realize you felt anything was broken about it? The vast majority of the suggestions you have gotten you have argued against so I figured you were keeping it the way it is. I'm definitely interested to see what changes you make to it.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-19, 07:47 PM
I didn't realize you felt anything was broken about it? The vast majority of the suggestions you have gotten you have argued against so I figured you were keeping it the way it is. I'm definitely interested to see what changes you make to it.

I didn't have any problems with it, but then again I'm also it's creator. An outside view gives me more insight to it's balance. But I need an outside view that doesn't include "monk" as broken.

Perducci
2007-12-19, 07:58 PM
The only thing that really sticks out to me as being possibly 'broken' is Shinsoku. If a DM has a problem with it, they can nerf it to whatever they see as fit.

I'm trying to find a game I could playtest this in to get a better feel of what the class could do.

Tyonisius
2007-12-19, 08:27 PM
The only thing that really sticks out to me as being possibly 'broken' is Shinsoku. If a DM has a problem with it, they can nerf it to whatever they see as fit.

I'm trying to find a game I could playtest this in to get a better feel of what the class could do.

Yeah, I'm trying to do the same. Thinking about changing the campaign I'm going to be running in January so that I can fit this in.

Shinsoku does seem broken to me, and it might be the only thing that I might qualify as broken. I don't personally like the ideas to keep their AC down, though I do understand the balance issues. I'll (I'd) probably just change the Hitokiri state a bit so that it didn't increase AC so much. I'm very intersted in seeing what changes, if any, that you make to this class.

Caros
2007-12-20, 08:13 PM
Hmm. All in all it seems an interesting take on things, though after reading through it you've prompted me to finally go ahead and start converting my old Hiten Mitsurugi class to a book of nine swords format.

I think the biggest problems I have with this class off the bat aren't really the mechanics, but more the style in which they are presented... guess I'll toss down a few bits of that.

Also, view all of the below with a touch of salt, I'm not a genious on the topics (Though admittedly I've talked to people who are.)

Firstly, and this is mind blowing after reading all of the previous posts. Why are you still calling it Iaido? I can't stress this one enough because you actually comment on it, not only in the class name but in the posts.

Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu, from everything you see in Manga, anime and OVA's, uses Battojutsu. It does not use Iaijustu, certainly not Iaido.

Why battoujutsu? You can take your pick of several reasons. Right off it could be that the author decided to use a more era appropriate name for the style. Iaido, while it was established much earlier, wasn't really refered to as such until ater the Meiji restoration.

It could also have to do with the fact that Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu was an ancient style, dating back 13 generations. Assuming that each master took his pupil in at the age of 20, thats roughly 240 years of the style from start to finish, putting its creation somewhere around 1500 AD. Interestingly enough that was point in history when sword drawing was refered to most often as battojutsu.

Finally, most of the Battojutsu moves we see used in the series are nowhere near Iai type moves. Iaido in paticular, shows little resemblance as most Iai techiques involve four steps. The draw, the cut, blood removal, and the return of the sword. Battojutsu seems to tend more towards the draw and the cut, with little emphasis on the last two.

While the terms can be used interchangably for the most part (They are all just about drawing a sword and cutting), It seems odd that you'd not use the name that was intended.

Its Maroon, Rose, Scarlet and Burgandy. Sure they're all red... ^_^

Next up? Hitokiri State. I gotta agree with behold the void on this one, that doesn't seem to have anything to do with Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu as a style.

For that matter, the 'Battosai' state is mostly just a creation of the Anime. While it is true in the manga Kenshin did change dramatically in tone in certain instances (Fighting Jin'eh, Saito, and beating on Kanryu), there were none of the obvious physical changes that were made out in the Anime.

If one wanted to duplicate this paticular trait of Kenshin in a gaming session, I've a much easier way. Wield a Sakabatou and take -4 penalty for dealing non-lethal damage when you smash someone in the head with a blunt piece of metal.

When you go 'battosai' it is easily done simply be removing that -4 and dealing full damage. Not quite the difference in mechanical terms, but its essentially what happened.

In the manga, Kenshin only fights at full strength in flashbacks, against Jin'eh and Saito, and against Enishi once he has his head in order. Its not that its some Super Saiya-jin, Bankai, 2nd gear specialty release thing. He's just not holding back ^^;

Likewise, I agree with Behold the Void in saying this really shouldn't be a base class. I've tried making a version of my own with 20 level progression. The problem is that you lack any customization outside of feats.

I'm also curious about the 'lightning cut' Ability. This strikes me as odd simply because Kenshin seems to perform most of his Battojutsu moves from a standing position. Just a thought.

I like The warrior heart ability. ^_^

Anyways, I've got the day off so I'm gonna scrawl up a full 10 level prestige class tonight. Sorry for being so critical.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-21, 01:16 AM
Firstly, and this is mind blowing after reading all of the previous posts. Why are you still calling it Iaido? I can't stress this one enough because you actually comment on it, not only in the class name but in the posts.

Primarily because Iaido is what I understand it as. But more important than that, I decided to use something that is easily recognizable to a layman as to what the ability was. Iaijutsu is fairly common in samurai films, and you only need to have seen one to know what the execution looks like.


Battojutsu seems to tend more towards the draw and the cut, with little emphasis on the last two.

Thats mostly because Iaido became something beautiful to look at rather than an efficient reserved killing technique.


Next up? Hitokiri State. I gotta agree with behold the void on this one, that doesn't seem to have anything to do with Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu as a style.

I agree, it has nothing to do with Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu. But this isn't about Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu. It's about the Battōsai, who happens to use the style of Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu.


When you go 'battosai' it is easily done simply be removing that -4 and dealing full damage. Not quite the difference in mechanical terms, but its essentially what happened.

Not really, Kenshin does get faster in the manga when he stops holding back.


In the manga, Kenshin only fights at full strength in flashbacks

And against Seijuro XIII to learn Dragon Flight of Heaven.. And against Shishio. And against Aoshi. And against Shishio's pet boy..


Likewise, I agree with Behold the Void in saying this really shouldn't be a base class. I've tried making a version of my own with 20 level progression. The problem is that you lack any customization outside of feats.

By the same basis, a Dread Necromancer/Warmage/Beguiler/Cleric/Druid/whatever-else-has-a-fixed-spell-list shouldn't be a base class either.


I'm also curious about the 'lightning cut' Ability. This strikes me as odd simply because Kenshin seems to perform most of his Battojutsu moves from a standing position. Just a thought.

Purely from the "I run past him and cut him" samurai movies. Nothing more, nothing less.

Caros
2007-12-21, 01:40 AM
Primarily because Iaido is what I understand it as. But more important than that, I decided to use something that is easily recognizable to a layman as to what the ability was. Iaijutsu is fairly common in samurai films, and you only need to have seen one to know what the execution looks like.

Fair enough, though I'd argue for a class based around an anime/manga using the term put forth by the original would be recognizable to anyone who would want to use the class ^_^;


Thats mostly because Iaido became something beautiful to look at rather than an efficient reserved killing technique.

For the most part thats what Iaido always was. Battojutsu always seems to strike as more of a combat art. Something meant for fighting, but semantics *shrug*


I agree, it has nothing to do with Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu. But this isn't about Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu. It's about the Battōsai, who happens to use the style of Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu.

Fair enough. Though I will point out that your flavor seems to imply there is more than one of them ^_^


Not really, Kenshin does get faster in the manga when he stops holding back.

Figured this would get brought up. How about subtracting four from everything. My only problem with the way you describe it is it seems like a boost when its not, its actually just a removal of an inherant weakness.


And against Seijuro XIII to learn Dragon Flight of Heaven.. And against Shishio. And against Aoshi. And against Shishio's pet boy..

I know a lot of people haven't seen the Enishi arc (Only manga, that seisohen crap doesn't help at all ^_^) So I'll point this out. Its mentioned in the arc that Kenshin is always pulling his fighting in some aspects. Afraid of breaking his vow to kill he doesn't want to go all out for fear he'll hit them too hard etc.

This of course didn't apply to either time he decided he was going to kill (Saito and Jin'eh.), and it stopped applying in the final battle when he fought Enishi. Its actually mentioned that he wasn't taking a proper step forward with his left foot, for fear of hitting too hard.


By the same basis, a Dread Necromancer/Warmage/Beguiler/Cleric/Druid/whatever-else-has-a-fixed-spell-list shouldn't be a base class either.

Dread necromancer I actually agree with you on. (Thier list is so limited is comedic.) Warmage and beguiler I just plain don't like, though they too suffer the same kind of issue (Warmage does have about 150 spells however, compared to... what, 20?)

Cleric and Druid aren't even in the same ballpark, with new spells every sourcebook.


Purely from the "I run past him and cut him" samurai movies. Nothing more, nothing less.

Fair enough

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-21, 03:09 AM
Fair enough. Though I will point out that your flavor seems to imply there is more than one of them ^_^

Primarily so people can have more than one battōsai in a game.


Figured this would get brought up. How about subtracting four from everything. My only problem with the way you describe it is it seems like a boost when its not, its actually just a removal of an inherant weakness.

That doesn't change the fact that he gets faster and more capable. In D&D, it's a boost. In the anime/manga, it's removal of a self-implied weakness.


I know a lot of people haven't seen the Enishi arc (Only manga, that seisohen crap doesn't help at all ^_^) So I'll point this out. Its mentioned in the arc that Kenshin is always pulling his fighting in some aspects. Afraid of breaking his vow to kill he doesn't want to go all out for fear he'll hit them too hard etc.

How does this apply to Hiko Seijuro XIII? Or Shishio? Or Aoshi? All three of which said they would kill him if he didn't fight to his fullest, which he did fight to his fullest in order to beat.


Dread necromancer I actually agree with you on. (Thier list is so limited is comedic.) Warmage and beguiler I just plain don't like, though they too suffer the same kind of issue (Warmage does have about 150 spells however, compared to... what, 20?)

Cleric and Druid aren't even in the same ballpark, with new spells every sourcebook.

But all of their spells are available to any other Druid/Cleric/Whatever-else. You have no customization other than your choice of spells and feats. A battōsai has no customization other than a choice of feats. The argument that lack of customization causes an inherent disability in a base class is flawed.

Caros
2007-12-21, 03:25 AM
Primarily so people can have more than one battōsai in a game.

Eh, fair enough. Though the idea that gave rise to Kenshin was a rather unique coming together of issues... *Shrug*


That doesn't change the fact that he gets faster and more capable. In D&D, it's a boost. In the anime/manga, it's removal of a self-implied weakness.

Eh, thats just it though. I don't see it as a boost even in D&D. Look at it this way, Kenshin is an 30th level character. He fights a bunch, gets messed up in the head, and decides he doesn't want to kill anyone. Ever again.

So he dumps himself down to 20th level. Still better than almost anyone he runs into. He fights someone hard, and he has to go back up to level 30. Against Jin'eh and Saito it has to do with him just deciding he's going to kill them. Against Enishi, he decides that the vow itself isn't as important as protecting those he loves and saving Enishi from himself.


How does this apply to Hiko Seijuro XIII? Or Shishio? Or Aoshi? All three of which said they would kill him if he didn't fight to his fullest, which he did fight to his fullest in order to beat.

Er, thats just it. He never fights his fullest against Hiko Seijuro, Shishio, Sojirou, or Aoshi. He comes close, but the version of Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki he uses against all four is incomplete, shown at least in part by the fact that Enishi beats it the first time, and loses the second against the same move.


But all of their spells are available to any other Druid/Cleric/Whatever-else. You have no customization other than your choice of spells and feats. A battōsai has no customization other than a choice of feats. The argument that lack of customization causes an inherent disability in a base class is flawed.

Difference? Numbers for the most part. You can customize a warmage for "Fire spells" Or "Force Spells" or any number of things. A cleric has an massive number of ways to select spells.

As a base class, this gets a very slim selection of abilities, all based around one concept. Furthermore, it doesn't seem like it multiclass well into anything Other than Iaijutsu master.(Style wise I mean. I'm sure mechanically it can, but I can't really see anyone taking this class and then going "I'll take levels in Eternal Blade, or blackguard, or "X") Which eliminates one of the biggest ways of varying a character.

It just strikes me as making more sense as a prestige class because it is very narrow and focused on a paticular ability and playstyle which is what prestige classes are all about.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-21, 03:34 AM
So he dumps himself down to 20th level.

Except that doesn't work in D&D. You can't willingly lose hit dice or levels. So boosts must come from the base character.


Er, thats just it. He never fights his fullest against Hiko Seijuro, Shishio, Sojirou, or Aoshi. He comes close, but the version of Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki he uses against all four is incomplete, shown at least in part by the fact that Enishi beats it the first time, and loses the second against the same move.

Uh, yes he does fight his fullest against Hiko Seijuro. He tells him as much. Hiko confirms it. If he hadn't, he would have died. As for Shishio, again, he does fight his fullest. The problem is that Shishio has the same abilities as Kenshin, so he can see through most, if not all, of Kenshin's abilities.

As for Sojiro or Aoshi, I doubt he was trying to kill them, but he certainly wasn't holding anything back.


Difference? Numbers for the most part. You can customize a warmage for "Fire spells" Or "Force Spells" or any number of things. A cleric has an massive number of ways to select spells.

That doesn't stop the gross oversimplification of the argument that a lack of customization is not base class worthy. Primarily because everything Cleric Y can do, so can Cleric Z, Cleric A, and Cleric KVX212 can do too. The argument proposed about the lack of customization is flawed, and it makes debating the worthiness of the class as a base class or a prestige class pointless.


It just strikes me as making more sense as a prestige class because it is very narrow and focused on a paticular ability and playstyle which is what prestige classes are all about.

There is only one problem with that. To adequately recreate Kenshin as a prestige class, you can easily make something that is obscenely overpowered compared to any other non-caster prestige class.

Caros
2007-12-21, 03:53 AM
Err, last couple of arguements fore I go to bed for the night ^_^;

Firstly, you can't? I'm pretty sure you can willingly take whatever penalties you want to your own statistics in D&D. I know you can willingly take a blow, so it stands to reason that you can willingly reduce your AC, Atack Bonus etc. HP not so much, but then I don't see why mental repression would really have that much effect on your HP =)

I don't really have it in me to dig up the final manga chapter to get the exact quote. I know that both Sanosuke and Karou are noted as saying that there is no comparison from this kenshin's power and speed the the one who fought Shishio. The whole point of the last fight is to show that without his guilt and fear of hurting someone holding him back, Kenshin can beat pretty much anyone.

As to the customization *Sigh* You've got 21 manuvers, and 21 known. That means if two people take this class, they will both know the exact same manuvers. They both know a max of 11. You could make two completely different characters, ignoring feats, other than that they will overlap. Moreover, since some manuvers are bound to be better than others, its more likely that those will be selected, thus encouraging even less varience.

Now thats not necessarily a bad thing. The reason why it is bad is due to the fact that this is a base class with a very narrow and specific focus. Its my problem with the Dread Necro. You're a necromancer.... thats it.

With this, you are Hitokiri battosai. Thats it.

Eh, having a hard time getting my message across in a way I like, tired so I'll leave it at that.

And counter to your 'it'll be overpowered.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67270

First draft isn't that bad, Think I'm gonna drop something. Probably decide after the manuvers are selected.