TO: Pacman, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)

[Gruftzwerg]

DISCLAIMER:
Welcome to another TO build where I'll try to showcase how exploitable double progression prc are when combined with the right cheese. We will use both the arcane and divine progression of Mystic Theurgy to fasten the spell progress for a single class first (cleric) and then switch to the other spellcasting class (beholder mage). With this we will get 9th lvl cleric spells at lvl 12 (!) and add 9th lvl Beholder Mage spells (Sorc/Wiz) at lvl 16! As always beware of the optimization lvl and that this is not intended for play. T1 spellcasting is already broken enough by itself and here we accelerate the spell lvl progression. This breaks the game balance entirely. Thus unless you play a solo campaign, don't even attempt to justify this build at any table with other PCs.
The rule explanation can be found at the bottom. Any rule questions/debates are welcome as always (as long as you keep it friendly^^).
Now let us dive into this silly build concept that's called...



PACMAN
the Southern Beholder Mage


Race: Human (Mulan)

STR: 8
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 17 (@ lvl 4, 16: +1 // MAX: 19)
WIS: 17 (@ lvl 8, 12, 20: +1 // MAX: 20)
CHA: 8
(PACMAN is weak, clumsy and not very charismatic. But he has the intelligence and wisdom to achieve his goals and that is what counts.)

Religion & Domains: (Spells, Transmutation)
Our character doesn't worship a specific deity. He is just fanatic about Beholders and wants to become one. And anything that ain't a Beholder or doesn't aim to become one is just worthless and not of interest.
As all Beholders he considers himself to be the best beholder there is and that those who are like him are superior to others not like him. He sees those that are "born" as beholder just as a magically degenerated byproduct of beholder dreams (note: IIRC the beholder lore is that when a beholder dreams of other beholders there is a chance that a beholder is created as byproduct). Because those that are born as a beholder lack the hunger for power and the thrive for self-perfection that those who become a beholder like him have (Beholder Mage).
(Note that by RAW beholders advance by adding racial HD and can't advance by class levels. This leaves only transformation cheese with other races as sole possible base option to enter Beholder Mage by RAW.)

Alignment: C-E
While there are no mechanical alignment restrictions here in the build, lets be honest here: You wanna become a freaking beholder and think that all other races are worthless and below em (including your own race). If that doesn't spell C-E for you, I dunno.. ^^




Cleric 3 / Human Paragon 2 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Spelldancer 1 / Beholder Mage 1 / Hierophant 3




LVL
Class
BAB
For
Ref
Wil
Skills

*=crossclass
Feats
Class Features


1st
Cleric (1)
+0
+2
+0
+2
Concentration: 4
K. (arcana): 4
K. (religion): 4
Perform*: 2
Tumble*: 2
Spellcraft: 4
Extend Spell

Combat Casting
(human bonus)
Rebuke Undead


Domains:
- Spell
- Transmutation


2nd
Cleric (2)
+1
+3
+0
+3
Concentration: 5
K. (arcana): 5
K. (religion): 5
Perform*: 2.5
Tumble*: 2.5
Spellcraft: 5




3rd
Cleric (3)
+2
+3
+1
+3
Concentration: 6
K. (arcana): 6
K. (religion): 6
Perform*: 3
Tumble*: 3
Spellcraft: 6
Southern Magician
(Races of Faerun)



4th
Human Paragon (1)
+2
+3
+1
+5

INT: 18

Concentration: 7
K. (arcana): 7
K. (religion): 7
Perform: 7 (+4)
Tumble: 4
Spellcraft: 7

Adaptive Learning:
Perform


5th
Human Paragon (2)
+3
+3
+1
+6
Concentration: 8
K. (arcana): 8
K. (religion): 8
Perform: 8
Tumble: 8 (+4)
Spellcraft: 8
Alternate Source Spell
(Dragon #325)
Bonus Feat


6th
Mystic Theurge (1)
+3
+3
+1
+8
Concentration: 9
K. (arcana): 9
K. (religion): 9
Perform: 9
Tumble*: 9 (+2)
Spellcraft: 9
Persistent Spell



7th
Mystic Theurge (2)
+4
+3
+1
+9
Concentration: 10
K. (arcana): 10
K. (religion): 10
Perform: 10
Tumble*: 10 (+2)
Spellcraft: 10




8th
Spelldancer (1)
+4
+3
+3
+11
Concentration: 11
K. (arcana): 11
K. (religion): 11
Perform: 11
Tumble: 11
Spellcraft: 11
Swim: 3

Spelldance


9th
Mystic Theurge (3)
+4
+4
+2
+11
Concentration: 12
K. (arcana): 12
K. (religion): 12
Perform: 12
Tumble*: 12 (+2)
Spellcraft: 12
Chain Spell



10th
Mystic Theurge (4)
+5
+4
+2
+12
Concentration: 13
K. (arcana): 13
K. (religion): 13
Perform: 13
Tumble*: 13 (+2)
Spellcraft: 13




11th
Mystic Theurge (5)
+5
+4
+2
+12
Concentration: 14
K. (arcana): 14
K. (religion): 14
Perform: 14
Tumble*: 14 (+2)
Spellcraft: 14




12th
Mystic Theurge (6)
+6
+5
+3
+13
Concentration: 15
K. (arcana): 15
K. (religion): 15
Perform: 15
Tumble*: 15 (+2)
Spellcraft: 15
Maximize Spell



13th
Hierophant (1)
+6
+7
+3
+15
Concentration: 16
K. (arcana): 16
K. (religion): 16
Perform: 16
Tumble*: 16 (+2)
Spellcraft: 16

Divine Reach


14th
Beholder Mage (1)
+6
+7
+3
+17
Concentration: 17
K. (arcana): 17
K. (religion): 17
Perform: 17
Tumble*: 17 (+2)
Spellcraft: 17

Arcane Hands


15th
Mystic Theurge (7)
+6
+7
+3
+17
Concentration: 18
K. (arcana): 18
K. (religion): 18
Perform: 18
Tumble*: 18 (+2)
Spellcraft: 18
Arcane Preparation
(Player's Guide to Faerun)



16th
Mystic Theurge (8)
+7
+7
+3
+18
Concentration: 19
K. (arcana): 19
K. (religion): 19
Perform: 19
Tumble*: 19 (+2)
Spellcraft: 19




17th
Mystic Theurge (9)
+7
+8
+4
+18
Concentration: 20
K. (arcana): 20
K. (religion): 20
Perform: 20
Tumble*: 20 (+2)
Spellcraft: 20




18th
Mystic Theurge (10)
+8
+8
+4
+19
Concentration: 21
K. (arcana): 21
K. (religion): 21
Perform: 21
Tumble*: 21 (+2)
Spellcraft: 21
Twin Spell



19th
Hierophant (2)
+9
+9
+4
+20
Concentration: 22
K. (arcana): 22
K. (religion): 22
Perform: 22
Tumble*: 22 (+2)
Spellcraft: 22

Spellpower


20th
Hierophant (3)
+9
+9
+5
+20
Concentration: 23
K. (arcana): 23
K. (religion): 23
Perform: 23
Tumble*: 23 (+2)
Spellcraft: 23

Spellpower



Cleric Spells per day / Beholder Mage Spells per day
# = no spell progression this lvl
* = double spell progression



LVL
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st

3

1+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
4

2+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
4

2+1

1+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th #
#
#

#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#


5th
5

3+1

2+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th *
5
3+1

2+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th *
6
4+1

3+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
-


8th
6
4+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
1+1
-
-
-
-


9th *
6
5+1
4+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
1+1
-
-
-


10th *
6
5+1
5+1
4+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
1+1
-
-


11th *
6
5+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
1+1
-


12th *
6
5+1
5+1
5+1
5+1

4+1

4+1
3+1
2+1
1+1


13th #
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#


14th
6

3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th *
6
6
5
3
-
-
-
-

-
-


16th *
6
6
6
6
5
3
-
-

-
-


17th *
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3
-
-


18th *
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3


19th #
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#



20th #
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#





1-5
The early levels are in preparation to enter Mystic Theurgy and Spelldancer. Souther Magician allows us to cast our divine cleric spells as arcane spells a few times a day. This qualifies us for the Alternative Source Spell feat which lets us prepare our cleric spells as arcane spells with the cleric class. The latter is needed to be able to get the double progression cheese with Mystic Theurgy. Because now (at lvl5) we can prepare and cast any (cleric) spell either as arcane or divine spell.

Human Paragon is needed to get the feats at the right moment. Southern Magician requires 2nd lvl spells it can be taken earliest at lvl3. Since we want to take our first Mystic Theurgy lvl at lvl 6, we need the free bonus talent from the 2nd lvl of Human Paragon for Alternative Source Spell. Otherwise the build would be delayed to much.

6-10
With entering Mystic Theurgy we can finally profit from the double spellprogression.
And by dipping into Spelldancer, we can persist as many spells we want (with the help of persisting Sheltered Vitality first). To qualify, we need 2 Items (Sandals for Endurance and Bracers or Armor for Mobility) and need to cast Heroics (via Anyspell) to get Dodge. The cost for the items is within the WBL limits.
Chain Spell is mostly in preparation for later combos/item tricks and for buffing allies/underlings.

11-15
Maximize Spell is once again mostly for later combos.
Hierophant (1) allows us to cast touch spells at range. This allows em to be chained and/or to be persisted.
To enter Beholder Mage we simply use Shapechange (persisted). Remind you that Shapechange changes the HD cap for the target form to solely casterlvl! With a full stacked Consumptive Field we can even become a Beholderkin Hive Mother! Further this allows us to regrow our Central Eye again, because Shapecange does change you into the average form of a creature and not into the same specific creature on repeated transformations. Giving up the Central Eye is sole needed to enter BM and doesn't interfere with the base prc abilities (since we don't get the capstone we are fine). The Eye Stalks on the other hand are part of the spellprogression of BM and thus always a part of our character. It applies always when we are in a fitting beholder form.
Arcane Preparation allows us to prepare spells as BM. This is needed to better abuse a Ring of Theurgy (see below).

16-20
Twin Spell is again for some metamagic combos (see below). Hierophant provides us with 2 bonus casting level! Note that since undefined, it applies to all caster lvl we have, both arcane and divine!




Since the build is very feat hungry I had to rely on magic items (and the Heroics spell) to qualify for Spelldancer

Required for Spelldancer:

Shadahkar's Swift Wind (Sandals) - Dragon #324 8350g
Gives the Endurance feat

Bracers of Armor +1 + Mobility (effectively +2) 4000g
With Mobility we have all feats we need to enter Spelldancer. (except Dodge which we get via Anyspell > Heroics)



Other Magic Items of Interest:

Orang Ioun Stone
The additional caste lvl adds on those provided by Hierophant. At max lvl this gives 3 additional caste lvl for both arcane and divine. With that we have 20 caster level as cleric and 21 caster lvl as Beholder Mage before buffs are applied (e.g. Consumptive Field combo).

Ring of Theurgy
I've mentioned the abuse potential for Spelldancers that prepare spells already in past showcase builds. Normally Spelldancer has the downside that you can't use metamagic in combat since the spelldancing just takes to long to be a reliable strategy. With Arcane Preparation we can prepare now our BM spells too and put em into the ring. Since BM is a spontaneous caster by default, the spells prepared into the ring can then later easily be accessed directly with any unused slots (and don't need to be prepared again). This makes it more flexible than it would be for a normal prepared spellcaster and allows us to use the free metamagic of spelldancing in combat without time loss.


Metamagic Rods:
Just mentioning em since Arcane Hands of BM allow em to be used.

Rod of Absorption
This can be a nice backup when we don't use our central eye(s) (or when not all enemies are affected by it)

Rod of Security
This can transport us and up to 199 allies into a pocket dimension for safety. (more on this see "tips & tricks")



Tips & Tricks


I'll try to give an overview of the most important stuff. Fist I will explain some stuff about the daily buff routine. Later I'll showcase come spell combos. Finally there are some spell combos specifically for the Ring of Theurgy mentioned at the end.
To keep some calculations simple I'm assuming max lvl (20) here.

Daily Buff-Up Process:

1. Persistent Sheltered Vitality
Always needed to spelldance as much as we want

2. Twin Maximized Summon Monster III
By summoning something from the SM I list (Small Viper or Monstrous Spider) we get 10 summons for a single cast. These are needed as sacrifice. See below.

3. Persistent Greater Consumptive Field
Allows to push our caster lvl as cleric up to 30 (17 base + 2 hierophant + 1 Ioun Stone = 20; 20 x 1.5 = 30) and as Beholder Mage even up to 31 (18 base + 2 Hierophant + 1 Ioun Stone = 21; 21 x 1.5 = 31).
As soon as we cast Consumptive Field our summoned Vipers/Spiders die within it and gives us the max possible caster lvl push (+10 with the Ioun Stone at 20)

4. Persistent (Miracle:) Body Outside Body (optional)
I mean, why not?^^ Let's play MULTIBALL (https://youtu.be/fYcMAwlh66k?t=530)! (did you know that there is a D&D pinball?? ^^)
Remind you that BoB is an uncapped spell, thus giving us up to 6 clones (with 30 clvl).

5. Chained Polymorph any Object (optional)
With this we can turn ourself and all BoB clones into Dvati. Note that Chain Spell calls out that all variables and decisions have to be the same. Thus we should all now be identical twins who can share personal spells across each other.. like...

6. Persistent Shapechange
Needed to access our BM spells (go for a Beholderkin Hive Mother). Note that Shapechance's target form restriction scales with sole caster level! This allows this build to access Epic forms early on. Note that once we shared Shapechange with our BoB clones they can always change into Dvati back to profit from non persistent spells via sharing.

7. Persistent Divine Power
Since DP scales with caster level, our BAB will be absurdly high for our current lvl.

8. Persistent Eyes of the Oracle
Allows to always have a standard action prepared. While the spell ends immediately when the prepared action is used, this can still be abused for cheese. (see Panic Button)

8. Persistent (Miracle:) Giant Size (optional)
Why not go for colossal size? Eat everthing in your way as a colossal beholder. Or just have fun with any other form. How about a pack of colossal Fleshrakers? With a +32 size modifier to STR, nothing will withstand our mundane attacks.

9. Persistent Venomfire (optional)
With such a high caster level, we shouldn't miss the cheesy Venomfire spell. Makes the Fleshraker form even more devastating.

10. ...
Since we can persist as much spells as we want, pick any interesting buff spells you want. (as a reference for Wizard spells have a look at my Lion-O build which has a nice recommendation list for persisting spells, including touch spells).


The Panic Button

With the Eyes of the Oracle spell always active, we always can prepare the standard action for our Rod of Security if we we should suddenly get attacked/ambushed. In the pocket dimension we can then act depending on the situation.

While the build is capable of casting a Persistent Time Stop (via Ring of Theurgy), this is sole beneficial for the BM spells and causes our persisted cleric spells to run out of time (without refreshing cleric spells since those are refreshed per day and not per 24h). Thus we will mostly rely on other solutions here.

If you want you can scry the location where you was before entering the pocket dimension to observe the attackers.

If you should have to somehow face a real threat, we will apply the ultimate buff spell that this build can cast and that is:

Chained Power Leech


Use "Twin Maximized Summon Monster X" two times (!) to get 20 summons (a chained spell can target up to 21 targets). Maybe cast em into a Force Cage to prevent em from attacking you back (note that BM can casts up to 1 spell per spell lvl as free actions per turn). With the Chained Power Leech we can buff any of our ability scores into nirvana, because the spell states:

The caster creates a conduit of evil energy between himself and another creature.
Through the conduit, the caster can leech off ability score points at the rate of 1 point per round.
The other creature takes 1 point of drain from an ability score of the caster's choosing, and the caster gains a +1 enhancement bonus to the same ability score per point drained during the casting of this spell.
In other words, all points drained during this spell stack with each other to determine the enhancement bonus, but they don't stack with other castings of power leech or with other enhancement bonuses.
The enhancement bonus lasts for 10 minutes per caster level.
Corruption Cost: 1 point of Wisdom drain.
We drain 1 point per round from 20 creatures. Even a simple score of 10 to be drained would return a +200 enhancement bonus for 10min/caster lvl (with 30clvl = 300min. or 5h). Pick either STR if you just wanna eat your enemies alive (colossal Beholderkin Hive Mother with Sallow Whole attack) or INT/WIS is you wanna raise your spell DC so far that everything will fail his save.


Mystic Theurgy's double progression:

When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.


Race Requirement for Beholder Mage:
This is a difficult topic as can be seen by the discussions it caused. To keep it short, here the most relevant points imho:
1. While we have a "Race" chapter in the PHB it remains undefined in 3.5
2. The sole rule connection in the "Race" chapter is that your race determines you "Racial Traits".
3. The Monster Manual (primary source for monsters) doesn't provide a "Race:" stat for monsters by RAW. Savage Species provides specific rules for this for player characters (specific niche), but not general rules for monsters/NPC.
4. Since we lack any rule mechanics (except the Racial Trait connection) for race, there is the common argument that transformation magic which changes your traits also changes your race. All Beholder Mage builds presented here and elsewhere rely on this assumed rule. This build is one of em.
5. ShurikVch did found the sole printed Beholder that can 100% RAW legally enter Beholder Mage, namely the Beeder Beholder from the Dragon Compendium. It's the sole printed beholder that may advance "by Character Class" by RAW without the need for the DM to homebrew a different "version". Sole downside is that it still relies on the specific rule from Savage Species to get the "Race:" stat. Add the fact that the Bleeder Beholder has +16LA and you should get that never anyone will ever play a 100% RAW beholder..

I know that especially point 4 is considered "bad manners" for a RAW TO build. But to my excuse, all other BM builds I have seen so far have the same flaw in their design. Normally I would avoid such interpretations for a RAW TO build of mine, but in this specific case I did make an exception for the reasons mentioned.

As always, these are not suggestions on how to play at your table. This is just a theoretical exercise to train our RAW reading skills and to have fun with rule debates.


The first sentence is the rule and what follows are only explaining the first sentence.
The rule adds one lvl of arcane progression and a lvl of divine progression for each lvl of MT you gain.
"This essentially means" indicates that it is only explaining what we have already been told. No new rule is added and "other" targets "mystic theurge". It means "other class than mystic theurge" here and not "divine casting class other than your arcane clasting class".

As explained in the snapshots, Southern Magician enables our cleric class to cast 3 arcane spells per day. But imho just being able to cast a few spells the other way ain't enough to qualify as "arcane spellcasting class".
For that we need Alternative Source Spell. This feat allows our Cleric class to prepare spells as arcane spells. It affects the most base mechanic that defines you as a caster and thus should allow us now to quality as arcane spellcasting cleric to double dip MT's spell progressions. The same combo can later be used with Beholder Mage to for the accelarated progression.

[Anthrowhale]

There are two rules disputes I see:

Is Cleric + alternate source spell an arcane spellcasting class? I'd say no personally, as feats don't changes whether the class is arcane spellcasting.

If the answer to the above is "yes", does MT double advance or single advance? I'd say no. If you double advance than this:

...the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to ...
is false since you gain new spells per day as if gaining two levels in an arcane spellcasting class.

[Gruftzwerg]

There are two rules disp.utes I see:

Is Cleric + alternate source spell an arcane spellcasting class? I'd say no personally, as feats don't changes whether the class is arcane spellcasting.
1. There is no 3.5 definition of the terms. So we have to guess which rule mechanics are required here..

2. ASS allows you to changes the source of the spell your are preparing. To make these changes, it needs to target and alter your "Spells:" ability which creates a specific trumps general situation. If it wouldn't trump the general rules for your class, it would be dysfunctional. But thankfully the Primary Source Rule rules in our favor and we are able to trump the general rules for the class here.

Imho the important mechanics are: Source; Preparation and Casting and we qualify with ASS for all 3 mechanics here. We can change all 3 points for our (specific) cleric class.


If the answer to the above is "yes", does MT double advance or single advance? I'd say no. If you double advance than this:

is false since you gain new spells per day as if gaining two levels in an arcane spellcasting class.

I don't get where you see the limitation here.

We have 2 partial effects where each adds "one lvl of spell progression" to a class. Nowhere do I see there a limitation that you may only add one lvl of progression to a single class.

It's basically: add +1 to class with X and +1 to class with Y
If my class has XY nothing stops me from adding both +1 to the same class.

I hope that I could clear up your doubts on the ruling and thx for taking your time for the feedback.

_______________

As a side question:
What do you all say to the Chained Power Leech combo (see Tips & Tricks: Panic Button)? Google didn't turn any results for me, so I guess it hasn't been discovered or ain't that well known.

[Chronos]

I still maintain that Beholder Mage is completely inaccessible to PCs. If Polymorph Any Object or whatever makes you count as a beholder for purposes of gaining class levels, then it also makes you count as a beholder for purposes of gaining class levels. In other words, you can't qualify for Beholder Mage without also being LA --, and so cannot gain further levels by any means other than DM fiat.

And while we're at it, there still isn't any rule that prevents actual beholders from taking class levels.

[Crake]

I don't get where you see the limitation here.

We have 2 partial effects where each adds "one lvl of spell progression" to a class. Nowhere do I see there a limitation that you may only add one lvl of progression to a single class.

It's basically: add +1 to class with X and +1 to class with Y
If my class has XY nothing stops me from adding both +1 to the same class.

I hope that I could clear up your doubts on the ruling and thx for taking your time for the feedback.

What hes saying is that mystic theurge allows for you to gain A (singular) level in both a divine and arcane class. By advancing this theoretically (because i dont buy that ASS makes a cleric an arcane spellcaster) hybrid cleric that is both, by advancing them one level you satisfy both sides of your mystic theurge casting advancement. By adding two levels to the class, you actually will have gotten two levels in both an arcane and a divine spellcasting class, which is not what the mystic theurge advancement provides.

So to use your analogy, you are allowed to add +1 to class with X and +1 to class with Y. By adding +1 to class with XY, you meet both those bonuses. If you try and keep them separate, and stack them, then now you have added +2 to class with X, and +2 to class with Y.

[liquidformat]

I think you would have a better chance trying to abuse Magical Training plus Precocious Apprentice rather than Southern Magician

[RandomPeasant]

1. There is no 3.5 definition of the terms. So we have to guess which rule mechanics are required here..

The game pretty clearly says that Wizards "cast arcane spells", and refers to them as "arcane spellcasters" in various contexts (e.g. various ACFs that use phrasings to the effect of "like other arcane spellcasters"). There are, to my knowledge, no analogous references for Clerics, or for Wizards as "divine spellcasters".


2. ASS allows you to changes the source of the spell your are preparing. To make these changes, it needs to target and alter your "Spells:" ability which creates a specific trumps general situation.

I don't understand why you believe any of this at all. The "alternative-sourced spell" phrasing in the feat is clearly using a term of art of the same type as "quickened spell", and even if it weren't it is unclear to me why you think modifying the "source" property of the spell would require modifying class features.


I still maintain that Beholder Mage is completely inaccessible to PCs. If Polymorph Any Object or whatever makes you count as a beholder for purposes of gaining class levels, then it also makes you count as a beholder for purposes of gaining class levels. In other words, you can't qualify for Beholder Mage without also being LA --, and so cannot gain further levels by any means other than DM fiat.

You only need to meet PrC pre-reqs when you take the first level, so you just PAO yourself into a Beholder, retrain a level of your choice into Beholder Mage, PAO back into a race that can gain levels, and go on your jolly way.

[Gruftzwerg]

I still maintain that Beholder Mage is completely inaccessible to PCs. If Polymorph Any Object or whatever makes you count as a beholder for purposes of gaining class levels, then it also makes you count as a beholder for purposes of gaining class levels. In other words, you can't qualify for Beholder Mage without also being LA --, and so cannot gain further levels by any means other than DM fiat.

And while we're at it, there still isn't any rule that prevents actual beholders from taking class levels.
I'm not using Polymorph Any Object but Shapechange. So I'm not turning 100% into a Beholder (if that is how you interpret the PaO effect). What Stats are affected by this change are listed under the ability. "Advancement" isn't one of em. Also remind you that some things never change since we get the Augmented subtype (Traits remain). Thus there is no rule base to assume that everything (including Advancement) would change.

Since there is no change to the Advancement, this (race that can advance by class transforming into a beholder) is the sole option to legally qualify for Beholder Mage.

As said in the other thread, I don't buy that (born) Beholders can become Beholder Mages by RAW without DM fiat.
The prc did missed the opportunity to call out that this is an exception to the general rule of advancement.

Because the actual advancement rules demands that your "Advancement:" line has the value "by class":

Class Levels

Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of "By character class" in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities.
A normal Beholder is neither "humanoid in shape" nor does it has the entry of "by character class" to qualify for improvement by adding class lvls.





The game pretty clearly says that Wizards "cast arcane spells", and refers to them as "arcane spellcasters" in various contexts (e.g. various ACFs that use phrasings to the effect of "like other arcane spellcasters"). There are, to my knowledge, no analogous references for Clerics, or for Wizards as "divine spellcasters".
A cleric is a divine caster by default and a wizard an arcane caster by default.
I think we have enough indicators in each classes text to be sure of this general state. If you argue against this, no caster could ever profit from the spell progression of prc. Thus this statement has to be true to have a functional game in the first place..

But what stops "specific" mechanics/rules to alter that? Is there any hidden rule that I am unaware that disallows any changes to this? (like, clerics may never become arcane casters or the like?) It's Specific Trumps General and not General Trumps Always..




I don't understand why you believe any of this at all. The "alternative-sourced spell" phrasing in the feat is clearly using a term of art of the same type as "quickened spell", and even if it weren't it is unclear to me why you think modifying the "source" property of the spell would require modifying class features.

While the name of an ability doesn't make a rule, it shows at least some intend. Imho Alternative Source Spell does what it says. It changes the "source" of your magic.

The "source" of magic is barely defined in actual rules (in the core books) but is mostly fluff.
There are barely things that comes close to a rule mechanic regarding the "source" of magic.
E.g. Cleric & Druid have restrictions that may cause em to lose their class abilities including spellcasting. But that ain't a global rule for all casters that rely on a divine source. Have a look at Spirit Shamans that don't have this limitation. thus the cleric druid limiations are specific and not global.
Then there are other specific things like "shadow weave" which comes with some rules attached to it. But core there aren't any relevant rules between the core classes and the "source" of their magic.

Without any real rule definition of "source" there is no reason for the ASS feat to mention any mechanical changes in the first place.

It's just that in some very rare scenarios like this debate here that the "source" starts to become important.

Thus imho Alternative Source Spell does what it says. It changes the "source" of your spellcasting. I mean, what is the word "source" implying here if not that the fundamentals of your magic has changed?

And "preparation" is the sole other mechanic besides "casting" itself what defines you as a spell caster (except your access to spells, but that ain't something that is specific to arcane or divine magic but once again is a specific trait of the class). And with ASS we have the specific exception to alter both.




You only need to meet PrC pre-reqs when you take the first level, so you just PAO yourself into a Beholder, retrain a level of your choice into Beholder Mage, PAO back into a race that can gain levels, and go on your jolly way.
As said above, I don't see any rule in transformation magic that would imply any changes to the "Advancement:" line.

Thus you could remain in the PaO form and still gain XP and lvl up.

And a real beholder will remain forever a beholder (and not be able to enter BM) unless DM fiat is applied.


____________________

I'm happy that I could raise your interest into the build and into the rules here. Keep the feedback and arguments coming. Thanks for investing your time into this silly mess xD

And no comments on Chained Power Leech? Really?^^
I did expect a bit more interest into such a gamebreaking combo..

[Crake]

You only need to meet PrC pre-reqs when you take the first level, so you just PAO yourself into a Beholder, retrain a level of your choice into Beholder Mage, PAO back into a race that can gain levels, and go on your jolly way.

That's not what they're contesting though, they're contesting the notion that polymorphing into a different creature actually changes what race you are considered. For example, is a succubus who has changed shape into a human now considered to be a human? No, their race is still succubus, they're just in the form of a human. So why would it be any different for a human casting polymorph into a beholder? It's not. Polymorph does not count as a race change.

[Gruftzwerg]

That's not what they're contesting though, they're contesting the notion that polymorphing into a different creature actually changes what race you are considered. For example, is a succubus who has changed shape into a human now considered to be a human? No, their race is still succubus, they're just in the form of a human. So why would it be any different for a human casting polymorph into a beholder? It's not. Polymorph does not count as a race change.

The problem I have with the "race" argument is that it is an undefined term in 3.5 (and not even a stat) despite being frequently used as requirement here and there.

The question that pops up is, which rule mechanics define your race?
The RAW answer is, "there are no rules for that".
IIRC the most common interpretation of the community here so far is that the transformation magic should at least include a type change to qualify. But even for that there is no clear rule base.

A DM would need to houserule mechanical requirements for "race" that aren't there by RAW to clearly deny transformation magic.

And in TO showcases there is no DM that makes houserules xD /*tries to HIPS*

[Crake]

The problem I have with the "race" argument is that it is an undefined term in 3.5 (and not even a stat) despite being frequently used as requirement here and there.

The question that pops up is, which rule mechanics define your race?
The RAW answer is, "there are no rules for that".
IIRC the most common interpretation of the community here so far is that the transformation magic should at least include a type change to qualify. But even for that there is no clear rule base.

A DM would need to houserule mechanical requirements for "race" that aren't there by RAW to clearly deny transformation magic.

And in TO showcases there is no DM that makes houserules xD /*tries to HIPS*

Its literally chapter 2 of the players handbook. It is also an entry on your character sheet.


After you roll your ability scores and before you write them on your character sheet, choose your character’s race

It is done at character creation, and unless something explicitly changes your race like the savage species rituals, then it doesn't change your race, it merely changes your form. You don't change your race on your character sheet when you polymorph.

[Beni-Kujaku]

That's not what they're contesting though, they're contesting the notion that polymorphing into a different creature actually changes what race you are considered. For example, is a succubus who has changed shape into a human now considered to be a human? No, their race is still succubus, they're just in the form of a human. So why would it be any different for a human casting polymorph into a beholder? It's not. Polymorph does not count as a race change.

For humanoids, race is defined by the subtype (see Illumian, Humanoid (human)). It wouldn't be too far-fetched to say that all monsters have a hidden subtype referring to their race. A beholder would be Aberration [True beholder], an Achaierai would be Outsider [Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful, Achaierai] and since Polymorph changes your subtype as well, while Change Shape doesn't, it would qualify.

[Crake]

For humanoids, race is defined by the subtype (see Illumian, Humanoid (human)). It wouldn't be too far-fetched to say that all monsters have a hidden subtype referring to their race. A beholder would be Aberration [True beholder], an Achaierai would be Outsider [Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful, Achaierai] and since Polymorph changes your subtype as well, while Change Shape doesn't, it would qualify.

That's not true at all, a bugbear's race isn't "goblinoid", it's bugbear. Subtypes are broader categories than race. Elves are another example, a drow, grey elf, wood elf, and high elf are all distinctly different races, but they all share the elf subtype.

[lylsyly]

Per the SRD Mystic Theurge grants +1 level of Existing Arcane Spellcasting Class / +1 level of Divine Spellcasting Class. Since you have no Arcane Spellcasting Class before you take Mystic Theurge what are you advancing? That's RAW! And none of your interpreting RAW (and the English Language) your way will change that!

[Gruftzwerg]

Its literally chapter 2 of the players handbook. It is also an entry on your character sheet.

As said before, while many text passages make use of the word "race" we don't have any definition, nor any other general rule mechanics for it, except for the PHB listing PC races as noted by Beni-Kujaku. And a list is a list and not a rule mechanic.


It is done at character creation, and unless something explicitly changes your race like the savage species rituals, then it doesn't change your race, it merely changes your form. You don't change your race on your character sheet when you polymorph.
The Savage Species rituals calls these changes out since it is their main purpose and it doesn't have any other effect than that. But the main purpose of transformation magic ain't the race change. It's just a byproduct. And since Monsters don't even have a "Race:" stat to begin with, how would Beholders from the MM actually qualify at all (ignoring the "by class" requirement for a moment) for Race: True Beholder??

Have a look at Reading the Monster Entries (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#)
It doesn't spell "race" even once..

Thus we have to default to common sense logic when it comes to defining what is sufficient to be of a certain race. (Otherwise Beholder Mage would be totally dysfunctional by RAW.) And imho if I could transform myself into a dog (in the real word), I would consider my race (species.. lets not talk about how d&d misuses the word "race"....) as dog.


Per the SRD Mystic Theurge grants +1 level of Existing Arcane Spellcasting Class / +1 level of Divine Spellcasting Class. Since you have no Arcane Spellcasting Class before you take Mystic Theurge what are you advancing? That's RAW! And none of your interpreting RAW (and the English Language) your way will change that!

That's like saying that a DWK who later picks the Improved Dragon Wings feat doesn't qualify for natural flight because it was not part of the base race by default. Specific Trumps General. The general state of something can always be altered by more specific rules.

The feat in both cases does alter the default state and creates a specific exception. ASS allows "your class" (not anyone's class) to prepare and cast arcane and divine spells. It allows your casting class(es) to alter between the arcane and divine source of magic.

[ShurikVch]

The Savage Species rituals calls these changes out since it is their main purpose and it doesn't have any other effect than that.
Another RAW example of explicitly changed race is Reincarnate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm):

Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores.
AFAIK, this is the only Core example


And since Monsters don't even have a "Race:" stat to begin with
Actually, they have: several monsters from the MM have their own races - such as Mind Flayer, Hill Giant, Bugbear, Gnoll, and so on


how would Beholders from the MM actually qualify at all (ignoring the "by class" requirement for a moment) for Race: True Beholder??
The exact text of requirement is "True beholder (beholderkin cannot become beholder mages)."
And just one page earlier:

Beholderkin
A vast number of beholderkin exist. Not true beholders, these creatures do not share the race's xenophobia, although most are still quite evil and cruel in nature.
And one more page earlier:

Creatures like gauths, overseers, and eyes of the deep are the subjects of wrath among true beholders, for they are similar enough in appearance and ability to be regarded as mockeries of the beholder self-image.

[Chronos]

Quoth Gruftzwerg:

I'm not using Polymorph Any Object but Shapechange. So I'm not turning 100% into a Beholder (if that is how you interpret the PaO effect). What Stats are affected by this change are listed under the ability. "Advancement" isn't one of em.
And since "advancement" isn't one of the things you gain, you can't advance like a beholder does, which means you can't take a class that has "Beholder" as a prerequisite.


Because the actual advancement rules demands that your "Advancement:" line has the value "by class":

Originally Posted by Improving Monsters
Class Levels

Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of "By character class" in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities.
None of this is contradicted by a beholder taking class levels. "If a monster is humanoid in shape, it advances by adding class levels" doesn't say anything at all about a monster that isn't humanoid in shape. There is no rule that says "Monsters that are not humanoid in shape do not advance by class levels". At most, you could argue that a creature that's humanoid in shape but gains RHD is a violation of this rule... except that isn't even a violation, either, because it just says "most commonly", not "always". That entire passage is merely descriptive, not restrictive.

[Crake]

And imho if I could transform myself into a dog (in the real word), I would consider my race (species.. lets not talk about how d&d misuses the word "race"....) as dog.

I feel like you’re lying to yourself here. If your transformation is temporary, and incomplete, i think you would still consider yourself as a human, who is just temporarily a dog.

But ultimately, how you feel about it is irrelevant. Your assertion that “race is never defined, ergo it can be whatever we want” is erroneous. Unless a spell explicitly states it alters your race, it does not. This is how the rules function. Currently your argument is “it doesnt say it DOESNT alter my race…” and i dont think the majority of people find that logic acceptable

The fact that “race” by your assertion is never defined (disagree, since theres literally a whole chapter on the topic, and an index entry for choosing your race in the players handbook, but you want a glossary definition or else it doesnt exist apparently) is irrelevant, because while it may not be defined, it is very clearly a “stat” if you want to word it like that, and only a handful of effects actually affect that “stat”, polymorphing magic not being among them.

[Gruftzwerg]

Another RAW example of explicitly changed race is Reincarnate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm):

AFAIK, this is the only Core example


Actually, they have: several monsters from the MM have their own races - such as Mind Flayer, Hill Giant, Bugbear, Gnoll, and so on
There are 3 possible ways to use the word "race" in the rules:
1. the simple use of the common sense word "race"
2. an effect targeting (and possibly changing) a "race"
3. a clear definition of "race"

We have 1 and 2 as you proved with your quotes. And I never denied that. But what we lack here is 3, a clear definition of what "race" is and what may or may not affect it.

"Mind Flayer, Hill Giant, Bugbear, Gnoll, and so on "
Yeah, we have monsters that can become characters. But when I look at the Mind Flayer entry, nowhere it is mentioned that it is its own race. The word isn't mentioned once in the entry. Nor is "race" mentioned in "Reading the Monster Entries".
RAW none of these have the stat (!) "Race:".
Sorry but you have been totally ignoring my point here..



The exact text of requirement is "True beholder (beholderkin cannot become beholder mages)."
And just one page earlier:

And one more page earlier:
So we have at least the mentioning that beholderkin is their own "race". So Beholders can at least qualify for the "Race:" requirement for BM. But that still doesn't change that it can't advance "by class" due to not having it as "Advancement:" entry.



And since "advancement" isn't one of the things you gain, you can't advance like a beholder does, which means you can't take a class that has "Beholder" as a prerequisite.


None of this is contradicted by a beholder taking class levels. "If a monster is humanoid in shape, it advances by adding class levels" doesn't say anything at all about a monster that isn't humanoid in shape. There is no rule that says "Monsters that are not humanoid in shape do not advance by class levels". At most, you could argue that a creature that's humanoid in shape but gains RHD is a violation of this rule... except that isn't even a violation, either, because it just says "most commonly", not "always". That entire passage is merely descriptive, not restrictive.
Sorry but what? As said above, it's the Beholder that has the problem because it can't advance "by class". Nowhere did the Beholder Mage entry mention any change or exception to this by RAW.

So it's the other way around as presented in the OP. You need to start as a character that can already advance "by class" and then somehow have to become a (Race:) true Beholder.

There is no way by RAW to change the entry in the "Advancement:" line other than DM fiat (since the BM entry forgot to mention an explicit exception here).


I feel like you’re lying to yourself here. If your transformation is temporary, and incomplete, i think you would still consider yourself as a human, who is just temporarily a dog.

Since when are temporary effects irrelevant in 3.5? If I'm temporarily a dog, then my race/species is temporarily a dog. Thus I would be allowed to visit the animal doctor as a dog in this silly scenario.
You are making up problems where there are none and I have to ask why? Sorry, but are you such in a hurry to disprove me that you don't check the logic that you are implying anymore? What is the problem with temporary effects?




But ultimately, how you feel about it is irrelevant. Your assertion that “race is never defined, ergo it can be whatever we want” is erroneous. Unless a spell explicitly states it alters your race, it does not. This is how the rules function. Currently your argument is “it doesnt say it DOESNT alter my race…” and i dont think the majority of people find that logic acceptable

The fact that “race” by your assertion is never defined (disagree, since theres literally a whole chapter on the topic, and an index entry for choosing your race in the players handbook, but you want a glossary definition or else it doesnt exist apparently) is irrelevant, because while it may not be defined, it is very clearly a “stat” if you want to word it like that, and only a handful of effects actually affect that “stat”, polymorphing magic not being among them.

The PHB chapter does sole give you the list of the races (available in the PHB). All that this does is create a list of races and noting else. It doesn't "define" what a race is. For that it would need to call out mechanical attributes or effects related to race to define it.

In Core, all the MM entries lack the stat "Race:". So unless you are transforming into a PHB race, your race would normally never change (when turning into a Monster). It's LoM that later mentions that beholderkin are their own race.

Do you wanna imply that Shapechanging into a Half-Drow makes me count as drow (drow-blooded) for all special abilities and effects while actual shapechanging into a Drow wouldn't? Sorry, but I don't buy that logic.

[Crake]

Do you wanna imply that Shapechanging into a Half-Drow makes me count as drow (drow-blooded) for all special abilities and effects while actual shapechanging into a Drow wouldn't? Sorry, but I don't buy that logic.

Well your logic would dictate that a drow using shapechanging magic to turn into a spider would lose access to the gift of the spider queen feat, or using alternate form to disguise themselves as a surface elf, and lose the vermin trainer feat (and thus all feats that list it as a prerequisite) because they cease being a drow.

Being targeted by a spell of effect is also not an equivalence to qualifying for something that has a racial requirement

[Gruftzwerg]

Well your logic would dictate that a drow using shapechanging magic to turn into a spider would lose access to the gift of the spider queen feat, or using alternate form to disguise themselves as a surface elf, and lose the vermin trainer feat (and thus all feats that list it as a prerequisite) because they cease being a drow.


Yes, this is my standpoint. The transformed drow temporarily doesn't qualify for the feat anymore. Transformation magic ain't always a pure gain. Imho this is to be expected by the nature how Transformation magic works (it takes stuff away from you and it gives you other stuff instead).


And to expand of this topic.. (since I somehow guess that this will come up next..^^)

Remind you of the old debate regarding Human Bonus feats and transformation magic that would make you lose it.
From my point of view the human loses the "Bonus Feat"-feature, but not the picked feat itself. Because the bonus feat was picked at character creation and was an instantaneous effect. The picked feat itself is self sufficient and doesn't rely on the "Bonus Feat" feature to exist and to be in effect. There is no "ongoing" check in 3.5 if you currently somehow have an invalid amount of feats.



Being targeted by a spell of effect is also not an equivalence to qualifying for something that has a racial requirement
That was not the intention behind my argument here. I sole wanted to point out the logical problems that I see if I would follow your point of view and that I am not satisfied by the possible results.

[Crake]

Yes, this is my standpoint. The transformed drow temporarily doesn't qualify for the feat anymore. Transformation magic ain't always a pure gain. Imho this is to be expected by the nature how Transformation magic works (it takes stuff away from you and it gives you other stuff instead).

So by your logic, a drow druid with the vermin companion feat loses their companion when they wildshape, gotcha.

[Paragon]

The fact that no one on this forum agrees with your bending-the-English-language-so-much-we-might-as-well-call-it-something-else and we're talking about people with decades of optimizing experience should give you the hint that it doesn't work.
It's not the first, nor the last time it will happen I'm sure but ask yourself what you're looking for by posting stuff that no one else approves, anywhere, ever ^^

[Gruftzwerg]

So by your logic, a drow druid with the vermin companion feat loses their companion when they wildshape, gotcha.
That's why there is the argument why transformation magic should be at least dependent on type change to qualify as a race change. Wild Shape doesn't change your type and you don't lose your racial traits nor do you gain racial traits.
This allows the common warforged living construct wild shape trick that is often referred when someone want to play something like a transformer.
From a mechanical point of view it would make sense that a race change is dependent on getting the racial traits in the first place.



The fact that no one on this forum agrees with your bending-the-English-language-so-much-we-might-as-well-call-it-something-else and we're talking about people with decades of optimizing experience should give you the hint that it doesn't work.
It's not the first, nor the last time it will happen I'm sure but ask yourself what you're looking for by posting stuff that no one else approves, anywhere, ever ^^

Interesting that you need to default to the "your argument is a minority opinion"-jocker aimed at me, while not giving a single argument related to the topic in the same post. Very kind of you...

Since when is a new discovery made by the majority and always immediately approved by the majority?
Whenever something new is discovered (even in real life), it's a minority (often even a single person) that has to defend the new theory and to argue against the common (mis-?)conception of the majority. That is the nature how new things are discovered. If humanity would be so conservative as you imply with your post, we would never discover something new and would have never even reached the stone age.

So, if you wanna help to verify or deny this, bring RAW arguments aimed at the topic and not at me.

And I don't see where I am bending the English language? I am merely pointing out the rule hierarchy created by the Primary Source Rule and checking for defined words. And in the absence of a 3.5 specific definition I default to the general definition of the English language while looking for mechanics that would represent em.
Tell me which word did I bend? If you accuse me of word bending you should be able to give an example.

[ShurikVch]

There are 3 possible ways to use the word "race" in the rules:
1. the simple use of the common sense word "race"
2. an effect targeting (and possibly changing) a "race"
3. a clear definition of "race"

We have 1 and 2 as you proved with your quotes. And I never denied that. But what we lack here is 3, a clear definition of what "race" is and what may or may not affect it.
We also don't have clear in-game definitions of such parameters as "Height" and "Weight" (among many other things)
Your point?..


"Mind Flayer, Hill Giant, Bugbear, Gnoll, and so on "
Yeah, we have monsters that can become characters. But when I look at the Mind Flayer entry, nowhere it is mentioned that it is its own race. The word isn't mentioned once in the entry.
There:

Most mind flayers with class levels are sorcerers or wizards.
Mind flayer characters possess the following racial traits.
And there:

The choice for mind flayer advancement is mostly moot, unless the campaign extends itself to epic levels beyond 20th. In that case, the old mind flayer tradition of wizardry is the best path for most mind flayers to pursue. With a +8 bonus to Intelligence, a mind flayer character given time and experience to develop its abilities can make a formidable archmage, and its spells would be very difficult to resist.
Racial Traits
• Starting Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Int. Mind flayers are intelligent creatures, albeit with an alien mindset.
• Speed: Mind flayer land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision: Mind flayers can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
• Automatic Languages: Undercommon. However, mind flayers prefer to communicate telepathically.
• Favored Class: Mind flayer. The best multiclassing choices for a mind flayer are wizard and sorcerer.



RAW none of these have the stat (!) "Race:".
Including various Elves/Gnomes/etc? :smallconfused:


But that still doesn't change that it can't advance "by class" due to not having it as "Advancement:" entry.
I suggest to just don't pay attention to "Advancement" line
Anybody is able to take some class levels (as long as have Int 3+, and their creature entry don't forbids it explicitly)
Glaring examples: in the 3.5 update to Monsters of Faerûn, Ghaunadan and Nyth got technically-playable LAs of +6 and +10; both are have "Advancement:—"

(Most of?) True Dragons are got "Advancement: Wyrmling ... HD; very young ... HD; young ... HD; juvenile ... HD; young adult ... HD; adult ... HD; mature adult ... HD; old ... HD; very old ... HD; ancient ... HD; wyrm ... HD; great wyrm ... HD" - but still capable to take class levels (Daurgothoth "The Creeping Doom" is notable, being Wizard 20 and the only known Dragon Archmage)

Dragon #293 printed ECLs for notable part of creatures from Monster Manual; by knowing the creature's HD, it will be rather easy to calculate LA (Beholder got +13)

[Crake]

That's why there is the argument why transformation magic should be at least dependent on type change to qualify as a race change. Wild Shape doesn't change your type and you don't lose your racial traits nor do you gain racial traits.
This allows the common warforged living construct wild shape trick that is often referred when someone want to play something like a transformer.
From a mechanical point of view it would make sense that a race change is dependent on getting the racial traits in the first place.

You're saying "it would make sense", but since you're such a stickler for the rules, point to me a rule that states using type-changing magic changes your race, because currently your source is "trust me bro". The onus is not on me to disprove your claim, the onus is on you to prove it. So far you have no supporting evidence that states polymorphing magic or other similar effects actually change your race, your only assertion is that "race is not defined", which does not prove your point, and is actually largely irrelevant to it, since, despite being ill/non-defined, there are still effects that very explicitly change your race, including core-specific things, such as the reincarnation spell, so regardless of whether it is/is not defined, or how ambiguously or precisely it is defined, you have not provided any evidence that shows that shapechanging magic modifies your race.

[Metastachydium]

(Note that by RAW beholders advance by adding racial HD and can't advance by class levels. This leaves only transformation cheese with other races as sole possible base option to enter Beholder Mage by RAW.)

Allow me to quietly settle this issue while you folks sort out the PAO thing. This is blatantly false, and one doesn't even need to consider general Advancement rules to know that. Beholder Mage was lat printed in Lords of Madness. Its description begins with this sentence:


[a] normal beholder can become a wizard or sorcerer.

Everybody's welcome!

[Gruftzwerg]

We also don't have clear in-game definitions of such parameters as "Height" and "Weight" (among many other things)
Your point?..

We default to the definition in the English language. Your problem?...


There:

And there:
I thought that the theory that traits are linked to your race would have been my argument. What's your point here? Are you suddenly trying to support my claims?!?




Including various Elves/Gnomes/etc? :smallconfused:
These are specific exceptions due to being listed in the Race chapter in the PHB. Still doesn't provide all monsters in the MM with the stat "Race:" by RAW.



I suggest to just don't pay attention to "Advancement" line
Anybody is able to take some class levels (as long as have Int 3+, and their creature entry don't forbids it explicitly)
Glaring examples: in the 3.5 update to Monsters of Faerûn, Ghaunadan and Nyth got technically-playable LAs of +6 and +10; both are have "Advancement:—"
The main point of an UPDATE is to change existing rules. It's introducing "specific" rules to play em. Still doesn't make a general rule for all monsters. It's Specific Trumps General and not Specific Becomes General..



(Most of?) True Dragons are got "Advancement: Wyrmling ... HD; very young ... HD; young ... HD; juvenile ... HD; young adult ... HD; adult ... HD; mature adult ... HD; old ... HD; very old ... HD; ancient ... HD; wyrm ... HD; great wyrm ... HD" - but still capable to take class levels (Daurgothoth "The Creeping Doom" is notable, being Wizard 20 and the only known Dragon Archmage)

Again Specific Trumps General. I don't get why you are always seeing these are evidence for something. Just because one creature has a specific exception doesn't mean all monsters may profit from that exception. They still need to be called out.



Dragon #293 printed ECLs for notable part of creatures from Monster Manual; by knowing the creature's HD, it will be rather easy to calculate LA (Beholder got +13)
I don't get where you are getting at here. All I did understand is that D 293 has printed ECL for many MM monsters. Are you trying to extrapolate the formula to calculate the LA for Beholder? I assume that this is a rule variant option that DMs may allow and not a general rule update for the MM.




You're saying "it would make sense", but since you're such a stickler for the rules, point to me a rule that states using type-changing magic changes your race, because currently your source is "trust me bro". The onus is not on me to disprove your claim, the onus is on you to prove it. So far you have no supporting evidence that states polymorphing magic or other similar effects actually change your race, your only assertion is that "race is not defined", which does not prove your point, and is actually largely irrelevant to it, since, despite being ill/non-defined, there are still effects that very explicitly change your race, including core-specific things, such as the reincarnation spell, so regardless of whether it is/is not defined, or how ambiguously or precisely it is defined, you have not provided any evidence that shows that shapechanging magic modifies your race.
I'm saying that "race" is undefined in 3.5 but from a simple logical point of view that to count as a race you should have the traits of the race to begin with. And you don't have to thrust me. You can present any contrary logical arguments is you want. Can you? And more importantly, do you want it? Because you would be arguing that you don't need racial traits to be of a certain race. Is that really your point? Or what is it?




Allow me to quietly settle this issue while you folks sort out the PAO thing. This is blatantly false, and one doesn't even need to consider general Advancement rules to know that. Beholder Mage was lat printed in Lords of Madness. Its description begins with this sentence:



Everybody's welcome!
The problem is that that it is a statement from the PRC description and not presented as general rule for Beholder. If LoM would have put that statement into the general description of Beholders as update to the MM you would be right.
But a PRC can't make simple statements to generate new global rules for a race. It could sole call out specific exceptions for its own niche. But the statement in the Beholder Mage entry doesn't talk about those that become a Beholder Mage but is implying that this is the general case. It doesn't have any permission by the Primary Source Rule to do so.
The statement is placed at the wrong place in the rule hierarchy to be effective. As it is, it is sole a wrong reference...

And if you want a honest opinion. Imho it is fluff text since the BM doesn't really build up on any of the mentioned classes (there is no requirement in that regards), nor do beholders have hand thus would be very limited in their spell selection..
A beholder is relying on specific exceptions like BM's spellcasting has to cast most spells.

[NontheistCleric]

Someone points out a piece of text unambiguously supporting what you are trying to deny and your response is 'in my opinion, it is fluff text'? This is the height of dishonest argument. 3.5 is replete with rules that crop up in weird, unintuitive places; just because something happens to be said under the header of Beholder Mage does not mean that it cannot pertain to things beyond the prestige class (and of course, your entire assertion that 'by the default rules, beholders cannot take class levels' is wrong anyway, but I don't want to have this argument in yet another thread).

Also, beholders can cast sorcerer/wizard spells just fine with Surrogate Spellcasting. Those eyestalks are flexible enough.

[Paragon]

Interesting that you need to default to the "your argument is a minority opinion"-jocker aimed at me, while not giving a single argument related to the topic in the same post. Very kind of you...

Since when is a new discovery made by the majority and always immediately approved by the majority?
Whenever something new is discovered (even in real life), it's a minority (often even a single person) that has to defend the new theory and to argue against the common (mis-?)conception of the majority. That is the nature how new things are discovered. If humanity would be so conservative as you imply with your post, we would never discover something new and would have never even reached the stone age.

So, if you wanna help to verify or deny this, bring RAW arguments aimed at the topic and not at me.

And I don't see where I am bending the English language? I am merely pointing out the rule hierarchy created by the Primary Source Rule and checking for defined words. And in the absence of a 3.5 specific definition I default to the general definition of the English language while looking for mechanics that would represent em.
Tell me which word did I bend? If you accuse me of word bending you should be able to give an example.

I'm not using the "majority is right" argument as it is a fallacy. I was just trying to question the need to post something everyone will frown upon, dismiss and not use for anything ever in a community of 100 people at most that still care about this system.
But hey, you're right, you're a genius that found out stuff nobody ever thought off before.
Don't mind me trying to jealously partake in the infinite pride there is in milking something to the pulp (yes there is no pulp in milk, you got me again !) until it is utterly destroyed and useless.

[Chronos]

And again, there is no rule limiting a non-human-shaped creature's ability to take class levels. The rule you keep pointing to only applies to human-shaped creatures, and it also only says "typically".

[Crake]

I'm saying that "race" is undefined in 3.5 but from a simple logical point of view that to count as a race you should have the traits of the race to begin with. And you don't have to thrust me. You can present any contrary logical arguments is you want. Can you? And more importantly, do you want it? Because you would be arguing that you don't need racial traits to be of a certain race. Is that really your point? Or what is it?

My point is that this is a RAI statement. You may consider it “a simple logical point of view”, but its actually a subjective perspective. You do not have any concrete points that are rooted in RAW evidence to prove your assertion, and since your whole argument is that this is a RAW TO build, while including a RAI ruling about changing race with shapechanging magic, the whole thing falls apart.

My argument is that your “race” does not change until an effect actually says it does. From my understanding, this is limited to reincarnation, and the savage species rituals.

[Anthrowhale]

From my understanding, this is limited to reincarnation, and the savage species rituals.
FYI, Shaper of Form's Modify Self has "Renaissance" which can change race, although it's restricted to the same type and LA+0 targets.

[Crake]

FYI, Shaper of Form's Modify Self has "Renaissance" which can change race, although it's restricted to the same type and LA+0 targets.

Nice find, another one for the limited list.

[NontheistCleric]

FYI, Shaper of Form's Modify Self has "Renaissance" which can change race, although it's restricted to the same type and LA+0 targets.

Actually, the text is 'The shaper of form cannot choose to become a member of a race with a level adjustment', so concievably, races completely lacking LA are up for grabs.

Whether or not the character would remain playable after that is probably up to the DM.

[Gruftzwerg]

Someone points out a piece of text unambiguously supporting what you are trying to deny and your response is 'in my opinion, it is fluff text'? This is the height of dishonest argument. 3.5 is replete with rules that crop up in weird, unintuitive places; just because something happens to be said under the header of Beholder Mage does not mean that it cannot pertain to things beyond the prestige class (and of course, your entire assertion that 'by the default rules, beholders cannot take class levels' is wrong anyway, but I don't want to have this argument in yet another thread).

Also, beholders can cast sorcerer/wizard spells just fine with Surrogate Spellcasting. Those eyestalks are flexible enough.
At first I pointed out the problems by RAW due to position it takes in the hierarchy by being a text part of a PRC.

But you ignored all my RAW argument and complain about my added opinion as if I hadn't tried to prove my point with rules first. Is that how you counter a RAW argument? By attacking the added opinion later as if there hasn't been made a RAW statement?
A PRC has no permission to make global changes for a Race. It's the wrong place. Would you expect your right of freedom of speech to be hidden in the traffic laws? Laws and Rules have their place. If you should somehow find a statement about your rights of "freedom of speech" in the traffic laws, it doesn't become its own law. It can at best refer to the actual laws found there where the laws for "freedom of speech" belong to. A traffic law will never be able to provide additional laws for your freedom of speech.

Same here, a PRC can't create new rules for a RACE by RAW.

And while Surrogate Spellcasting solves some issues it doesn't mean you can cast all spells. You still can't handle material components nor a focus. Not even the Arcane Hands ability of BM can do that. BM gets this nice rule to use:

"Beholder mages do not require material components to cast their spells. The ruined central eye acts as an arcane focus for all the creature's spells. If a spell normally requires a material component that carries with it a gold-piece cost, the beholder mage instead spends a number of experience points equal to one-fifth of the normal gold-piece cost (minimum of 1 experience point). The somatic components of a beholder mage's spells are supplied by the weaving and waving of its spell-stalks. The verbal component of a beholder mage's spells is the creature's special spellcasting song. The song takes effort; a beholder mage that is casting spells cannot speak or use its mouth to do anything else that round, including making bite attacks."


I'm not using the "majority is right" argument as it is a fallacy. I was just trying to question the need to post something everyone will frown upon, dismiss and not use for anything ever in a community of 100 people at most that still care about this system.
But hey, you're right, you're a genius that found out stuff nobody ever thought off before.
Don't mind me trying to jealously partake in the infinite pride there is in milking something to the pulp (yes there is no pulp in milk, you got me again !) until it is utterly destroyed and useless.
For what am I doing TO showcases that are optimized beyond normal play?
For the sake of fun and to have some nice rule discussion about the problems that RAW has. Mostly for educational purposes for us all (me included) to get better at reading the rules RAW. The entire forum benefits if we get more accurate at reading RAW (because that is the primary intended way to read the rules. RAI is only secondary).
And silly build concepts are imho a fun way to initiate rule discussions.
Especially with all the rule questions and build competitions that pop up in the forum in mind. And if anybody of us should at any time get into a position to write rules/laws, these discussion will help to prevent the same mistakes 3.5 did in the past.

And have you noticed that almost nobody is pretending to play 100% RAW anymore? I can't even remember when the last time was that someone pretended that his "DM is 100% diehard RAW". These kind of statements did drive me nuts in the past and was the main reason for my lil rule lawyering agenda here. To showcase the true stupidity of RAW and why nobody should play RAW and that nobody really plays RAW because of its shortcomings. And look, after roughly 5 years of hardwork praying the Primary Source Rule in the forum, almost nobody has the wrong impression that he is paying RAW anymore. And I feel that the overall accuracy to interpret rules in the forum has increased very much the past years. More people are aware and are able to use the Primary Source Rule to our all benefit.

Finally, there is a small community that enjoys silly build concepts. They may be small but they are there. I do get compliments from time to time for my work. Just like with everything else in life, it is easier to draw complaints then to get praise. But just a few days ago I got a compliment for this build concept on reddit that he is enjoying reading concept builds like this and that he is appreciating that there are still people doing these. If it is boring for and you don't think it's worth your time, I don't force anyone to waste his time here. But if you should somehow enjoy silly builds with silly rule discussions or want to improve your rule lawyering skills, you are welcome. ;)


And again, there is no rule limiting a non-human-shaped creature's ability to take class levels. The rule you keep pointing to only applies to human-shaped creatures, and it also only says "typically".
It's the other way around, you have to prove that Beholders have permission. And I have already shown why imho they have no permission. 3.5 is permission based. So, where is the rule text that gives Beholder the undeniable permission by RAW to advance by class?

The main rule I'm poking on is still the required entry "by character class". And that ain't just typical, but is a hard requirement to be in the "category" to advance by class.


My point is that this is a RAI statement. You may consider it “a simple logical point of view”, but its actually a subjective perspective. You do not have any concrete points that are rooted in RAW evidence to prove your assertion, and since your whole argument is that this is a RAW TO build, while including a RAI ruling about changing race with shapechanging magic, the whole thing falls apart.

My argument is that your “race” does not change until an effect actually says it does. From my understanding, this is limited to reincarnation, and the savage species rituals.
The DM (even a dummy DM in RAW TO) has the duty to fill the gabs in the rules. And he has to do this in the most sensible way. In the absence of rules the DM has the duty to look for indicators to solve the gap in the rules. He can't ignore obvious related mechanics while filling the gap.

As it is, "race" remains undefined (since nobody was able to provide an official definition), while WoC added more and more stuff interacting with "race" over time. According to the MM no monster has the stat (!) "Race:". Even if I would ignore "Advancement: by class" problem, by RAW the beholder still couldn't provide a race stat...
And in comprehension, filling a rule gap for "race" in a sensible way is imho less problematic than ignoring that Beholders lack the "by character class" entry from a RAW point of view.

"Racial Traits" are part of a "race". Since the racial traits present the rule mechanics that are relevant for that race, it is imho the simplest logical connection that they are mandatory to count as that race. Otherwise we run into strange situations like the above mentioned Shapechange into Half-Drow/Drow problem.


FYI, Shaper of Form's Modify Self has "Renaissance" which can change race, although it's restricted to the same type and LA+0 targets.

I was trying to remember that prc.. ^^ Thx for bringing it up.


__________________________

As said above, I hope that everybody is enjoying the discussion as much as I do. I appreciate the interest and feedback.

And as a last try:
Still no comments on "Chained Power Leech"?
I feel like that normally this kind of combo would get some more attention!? ^^

[NontheistCleric]

At first I pointed out the problems by RAW due to position it takes in the hierarchy by being a text part of a PRC.

But you ignored all my RAW argument and complain about my added opinion as if I hadn't tried to prove my point with rules first. Is that how you counter a RAW argument? By attacking the added opinion later as if there hasn't been made a RAW statement?
A PRC has no permission to make global changes for a Race. It's the wrong place. Would you expect your right of freedom of speech to be hidden in the traffic laws? Laws and Rules have their place. If you should somehow find a statement about your rights of "freedom of speech" in the traffic laws, it doesn't become its own law. It can at best refer to the actual laws found there where the laws for "freedom of speech" belong to. A traffic law will never be able to provide additional laws for your freedom of speech.

Same here, a PRC can't create new rules for a RACE by RAW.

Actually, it can. Let's look at the rule on primary sources:


Errata Rule: Primary Sources When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees. Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

So rules elsewhere, even in a PRC, are legal unless they disagree with the primary source. There are exactly zero rules forbidding beholders from taking class levels, which multiple people have told you numerous times. So the text in Lords of Madness should amply satisfy your need to be approved by RAW, unless you continue to cling to an interpretation of the monster advancement rules that no other speaker of the English language or indeed, player or designer of 3.5, seems to agree with.


And while Surrogate Spellcasting solves some issues it doesn't mean you can cast all spells. You still can't handle material components nor a focus. Not even the Arcane Hands ability of BM can do that. BM gets this nice rule to use:

Okay, so what? Is someone with congenital quadriplegia forbidden from taking wizard levels, now? This is just nit-picking, it has no bearing on the ability of beholders to take levels in a class.

[Doctor Despair]

Actually, it can... There are exactly zero rules forbidding beholders from taking class levels, which multiple people have told you numerous times.

You could also point out that specific trumps general. Even if there were rules saying that beholders can't take classes, a rule printed elsewhere that says "beholders can take THIS class" is more specific than that general rule.

[Crake]

The DM (even a dummy DM in RAW TO) has the duty to fill the gabs in the rules. And he has to do this in the most sensible way. In the absence of rules the DM has the duty to look for indicators to solve the gap in the rules. He can't ignore obvious related mechanics while filling the gap.

Right, but as soon as your "RAW" build requires filling in gaps, which will ultimately result in a subjective addition to the rules, then it is no longer a RAW build, it is now a RAI build at best or, more likely, a houserule build. "Race is not defined, so I'm going to introduce a rule that says gaining racial traits of a race counts as becoming that race" is 100% a houserule.

[NontheistCleric]

You could also point out that specific trumps general. Even if there were rules saying that beholders can't take classes, a rule printed elsewhere that says "beholders can take THIS class" is more specific than that general rule.

True, but I didn't want to engage on the terms that a rule forbidding beholders from taking class levels actually exists, both because it doesn't and because I and numerous others have already had that argument with Gruftzwerg elsewhere.

[Metastachydium]

And if you want a honest opinion. Imho it is fluff text since the BM doesn't really build up on any of the mentioned classes (there is no requirement in that regards), nor do beholders have hand thus would be very limited in their spell selection..
A beholder is relying on specific exceptions like BM's spellcasting has to cast most spells.

Maybe you should read the text of the class, as published in LoM, frankly. Yes, it goes on to address the issue with hands and "not a prerequisite", by way of pointing out that while normal Beholders can totally become Sorcerers or Wizards (both of those are game terms, by the way), their lack of hands means that using their spells might present issues so they (i.e. normal Beholders) are better off going Beholder Mage overall.

If that tells you that Beholders cannot take class levels, and cannot take class levels in Beholder Mage, specifically, I don't know what you want. 200' tall flaming letters signed by all writers involved in making the class? It's okay to be wrong, Gruftzwerg. I'm wrong a lot of the time myself. Evrybody is. Stubbornly insisting that "Beholders can become Beholder Mages", spelled out in the very description of the class itself, means that "Beholders cannot become Beholder Mages" is not okay. It's silly, at best.

[Gruftzwerg]

Actually, it can. Let's look at the rule on primary sources:



So rules elsewhere, even in a PRC, are legal unless they disagree with the primary source. There are exactly zero rules forbidding beholders from taking class levels, which multiple people have told you numerous times. So the text in Lords of Madness should amply satisfy your need to be approved by RAW, unless you continue to cling to an interpretation of the monster advancement rules that no other speaker of the English language or indeed, player or designer of 3.5, seems to agree with.



Okay, so what? Is someone with congenital quadriplegia forbidden from taking wizard levels, now? This is just nit-picking, it has no bearing on the ability of beholders to take levels in a class.

1) The Primary Source for a beholder's advancement is the "Advancement:"-line

2) How is "Advancement: by HD" not in conflict with "A normal beholder can become a wizard or sorcerer." ?
The conflict is obvious and the Primary Source: "beholder's Advancement line" is correct.


You could also point out that specific trumps general. Even if there were rules saying that beholders can't take classes, a rule printed elsewhere that says "beholders can take THIS class" is more specific than that general rule.
A PRC ain't a more specific TOPIC of the topic Race.

Remind you that the Primary Source Rule is about "book" and "topic" supremacy.

1. LoM ain't a Core book, nor does it explicitly call out "rule supremacy over the topic Beholders" like Draconomicon does for dragon. It also doesn't create a more specific topic for the advancement of beholders, it talks about the same topic (so no permission to trump the general rules). The MM has supremacy of the topic. No supplement may "trump it by default"(see 2). Remind you that Specific Trumps General is nothing else as an oversimplified interpretation of the Primary Source Rule itself and here the oversimplification is as its limits.

2. And even if LoM would have the supremacy over the topic "Beholder", the topic "PRC: Beholder Mage" ain't a more specific Race topic. Just because the PRC is race related doesn't mean that it is a more specific topic for "race". The same sentence would need to be printed into a rule update for Beholders. You need a clear rule update (Errata / Book which claims topic supremacy/...) to trump the MM.

3. A legal Specific Trumps General option here would be to have a beholder subrace, which could legally trump the general rules for beholder advancement.



Right, but as soon as your "RAW" build requires filling in gaps, which will ultimately result in a subjective addition to the rules, then it is no longer a RAW build, it is now a RAI build at best or, more likely, a houserule build. "Race is not defined, so I'm going to introduce a rule that says gaining racial traits of a race counts as becoming that race" is 100% a houserule.
I know that this is a lil flaw in the beauty of the build. And under "normal" circumstances I would try to avoid it like a pest in a TO build. The problem here is that BM ain't just an exchangeable part of the build but the main theme. So if we want any RAW TO Beholder Mage builds, this is the small sacrifice we have are forced to make. Either that or no BM builds at all by RAW. And to my defense, all BM builds face the very same problem. This build ain't alone with that flaw.

On the other side, it's kinda my own fault that I went Mystic Theurge/BM and not Arcane Hierophant/Ur-Priest to showcase the double progression cheese here. But BM was to tempting and AH/UP was to complicated to build in comprehension.




Maybe you should read the text of the class, as published in LoM, frankly. Yes, it goes on to address the issue with hands and "not a prerequisite", by way of pointing out that while normal Beholders can totally become Sorcerers or Wizards (both of those are game terms, by the way), their lack of hands means that using their spells might present issues so they (i.e. normal Beholders) are better off going Beholder Mage overall.

If that tells you that Beholders cannot take class levels, and cannot take class levels in Beholder Mage, specifically, I don't know what you want. 200' tall flaming letters signed by all writers involved in making the class? It's okay to be wrong, Gruftzwerg. I'm wrong a lot of the time myself. Evrybody is. Stubbornly insisting that "Beholders can become Beholder Mages", spelled out in the very description of the class itself, means that "Beholders cannot become Beholder Mages" is not okay. It's silly, at best.

I have tried to explain that the Primary Source Rule expects rule to be at the right place to be able to trump other rules. It's all about the position in the hierarchy that the PSR creates and which rule may trump the other or not.

As said, the term Specific Trumps General is an oversimplified expression of the entire PSR rule. You can't trump CORE books (PHB, DMG & the MM) with supplements on the "same topic". Supplement books rely on creating new and more specific subtopics. There they may trump the general rules for their "niche"!

LoM doesn't create a specific subtopic for the topic "Race: Beholder" when it's introducing the rules for the PRC: BM. That are more specific suptopic for picking a class (by adding race related PRC options). It's the wrong topic here by RAW.

Remind you that RAW is SILLY and that I don't advertise to play RAW. It's rather the total opposite. I'm showcasing the stupidity/fails/shortcomings of RAW here and how exploitable it is. It's not my fault that by strict RAW a Beholder can't become a Beholder Mage. Blame WotC if you want for bad editing xD

[NontheistCleric]

1) The Primary Source for a beholder's advancement is the "Advancement:"-line

2) How is "Advancement: by HD" not in conflict with "A normal beholder can become a wizard or sorcerer." ?
The conflict is obvious and the Primary Source: "beholder's Advancement line" is correct.

There is no conflict, because that line in the beholder entry is not a prescriptive rule but instead a reference to the rules on improving monsters. Those rules do not prohibit beholders from gaining class levels, and indeed, allow them to.

[loky1109]

Remind you that Specific Trumps General is nothing else as an oversimplified interpretation of the Primary Source Rule itself
STG is directly opposite to PSR. Mutually exclusive things. That's why I think PSR is slightly schizophrenic rule.

[Crake]

I know that this is a lil flaw in the beauty of the build. And under "normal" circumstances I would try to avoid it like a pest in a TO build. The problem here is that BM ain't just an exchangeable part of the build but the main theme. So if we want any RAW TO Beholder Mage builds, this is the small sacrifice we have are forced to make. Either that or no BM builds at all by RAW. And to my defense, all BM builds face the very same problem. This build ain't alone with that flaw.

On the other side, it's kinda my own fault that I went Mystic Theurge/BM and not Arcane Hierophant/Ur-Priest to showcase the double progression cheese here. But BM was to tempting and AH/UP was to complicated to build in comprehension.

Thing is though, it's not a "lil" flaw, it's a massive one. It undermines the entire foundation of the build. The bolded part is in fact correct. Beholder is not a valid player race, and beholder mage requires you to be a beholder, ergo it is not a valid choice for players to use. It is a prestige class for DMs to apply to their beholder monsters to allow them to be a bigger threat beyond standard CR13 monster without simply just beefing up their HD, which would do little to really enhance the encounter beyond just making it a damage sponge.

[Gruftzwerg]

There is no conflict, because that line in the beholder entry is not a prescriptive rule but instead a reference to the rules on improving monsters. Those rules do not prohibit beholders from gaining class levels, and indeed, allow them to.
Someone has moved that topic into a separate thread, thus I won't repeat the entire arguments that have been made there.

To repeat the short version: "Improving Monsters: Class Level" is the Primary Source and the Advancement line's definition does not create a more specific topic but talks about the very same topic. Thus it can't trump the general rules to begin with. And the general rules under "IM: Class Level" demand that everything that belongs into this category to have the "Advancement:" entry "By Character Class"


STG is directly opposite to PSR. Mutually exclusive things. That's why I think PSR is slightly schizophrenic rule.
The Specific Trumps General term is just catchy and ain't a rule on its own. The real rule it thrives from is the Primary Source Rule. The PSR has 2 effects:

1. Book Supremacy
The part where it talks about the Core books (PHB, DMG, MM). It gives an overview over which topics those books have supremacy. This means that no supplement book can trump the core books without explicitly calling it out. Examples of such an explicit call out are Rules Compendium and Draconomicon. The first one calls out that the books is intended to update the rules, the latter calls supremacy over the topic dragon.

2. Topic Supremacy
Since the PSR neither defines nor limits what a topic is, effectively anything can be a topic and anything that becomes more specific creates is own subtopic. Since a subtopic (more specific) is its own Primary Source it has supremacy over its own topic. Specific Trumps General is simply describing this process. But what STG doesn't tell you is that there is still 1: Book Supremacy. That is lost in the catchy phrase.


Thing is though, it's not a "lil" flaw, it's a massive one. It undermines the entire foundation of the build. The bolded part is in fact correct. Beholder is not a valid player race, and beholder mage requires you to be a beholder, ergo it is not a valid choice for players to use. It is a prestige class for DMs to apply to their beholder monsters to allow them to be a bigger threat beyond standard CR13 monster without simply just beefing up their HD, which would do little to really enhance the encounter beyond just making it a damage sponge.

As said, this ain't the first TO Beholder Mage build that has this flaw that I see poping up here and there. If you are so strict about it, then no TO Beholder Mages builds for you (or any other build that relies on transformation magic to enter prc. and I have seen some of em here too)^^. I'm not happy about it either and would have avoided it if it would have been possible in any more obviously RAW legal way. Maybe WISH for it?!? xD

While not a proof:
The PHB is the sole source that has an entire chapter for the topic Race and introduces Racial Traits for the those.

Thus we can at least argue that they are a part of the race by RAW. Still not a proof that a type change gives us the race change, but we can at least tell that it is a part of it. At least some connection is there.

[ShurikVch]

Yeah, we have monsters that can become characters. But when I look at the Mind Flayer entry, nowhere it is mentioned that it is its own race. The word isn't mentioned once in the entry. Nor is "race" mentioned in "Reading the Monster Entries".
RAW none of these have the stat (!) "Race:".
Well...

See the Awakened Characters sidebar in Chapter 2: Building Monster Characters for guidelines on playing awakened animals and plants. Put the name of your base creature in the space for "Race" on your character sheet.
Also, from the Monster Manual:

Angels are a race of celestials, beings who live on the good-aligned Outer Planes.

Demons are a race of creatures native to the Abyss, a plane of endless evil.

The eladrins are a celestial race native to the plane of Arborea.

Guardinals are a celestial race native to the plane of Elysium.

Many titans are powerful servants of good, but in ages past the race of titans rebelled against the deities themselves, and a number of titans turned to evil.


Also, question: say, Cave Troll (Monster Manual III) got

Advancement: 10–14 HD (Large); 15–27 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +6
Presuming anybody ever would play as one - what, you think, should happen at the level up?
And do you mean Quasilycanthrope (https://web.archive.org/web/20201111200627/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) Cave Troll would be able to take class levels (but not advance in their racial HD)?

[Gruftzwerg]

Well...

"Building Monster Characters for guidelines on playing ..."
This is a specific rule in a supplement book which only applies for its own niche. It doesn't become a global rule for "Monsters" used by the DM.

RAI: sure
RAW: sorry...





Also, from the Monster Manual:

Nice fluff quotes that once again show the intention (RAI) but still ain't a proof that they have the stat "Race:" with it by RAW sadly..




Also, question: say, Cave Troll (Monster Manual III) got

Presuming anybody ever would play as one - what, you think, should happen at the level up?
And do you mean Quasilycanthrope (https://web.archive.org/web/20201111200627/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) Cave Troll would be able to take class levels (but not advance in their racial HD)?

In that specific situation you would indeed end with a Cave Troll that can't advance by HD anymore. Specific Trumps General. Template can make you lose things (e.g. templates that turn you undead or into a construct) nothing new.

Imho it would have been better it the entry would have been " Advancement: as base creature and by character class", but RAW it is as it is..
We can now argue if this was intentional or not.. (RAI)


______________________________
______________________________

Thanks again for all your feedback so far.

I think I will start my update process somewhere in the next days.
So far we have the general "Race:" issue that all RAW Beholder Mage builds have, which I want to point out in the OP's rule section. I also want to add a link to the side discussion about the "Advancement:" line.

I still appreciate any kind of feedback. Be it regarding the current topics or other new related topics you have in mind.

PS: I promise the next build in line is much more on the sane side of thing and more a practial showcase xD
An Eldritch Knight without lvls in Eldritch Knight

[ShurikVch]

"Building Monster Characters for guidelines on playing ..."
This is a specific rule in a supplement book which only applies for its own niche.
Races of Destiny uses those rules too...



In that specific situation you would indeed end with a Cave Troll that can't advance by HD anymore. Specific Trumps General. Template can make you lose things (e.g. templates that turn you undead or into a construct) nothing new.
I'm not against it - but what would happen if somebody playing as "vanilla" Cave Troll?
How it would level up (in your opinion)?

Also:

THE BOOK OF ABERRATIONS
While this book might seem to be intended primarily for Dungeon Masters, the monsters discussed in this tome are so powerful, iconic, and prevalent in the D&D universe that any player wishing to know more about his character's adversaries should be interested in the information contained herein. Chapter 9 includes a number of feats, spells, and prestige classes for characters whose principal enemies include monsters of the aberration type. While the focus of this book is on aberrations, many of these new rules elements can apply to other creatures. New aboleth, illithid, and silthilar (a new aberration swarm) grafts can benefit an adventurer in any sort of campaign, as can any of several new domains and magic items.
Naturally, Dungeon Masters will find dozens of new monsters, monster feats, monster spells, and tremendous amounts of hidden lore about these same creatures. Everything you need to highlight an iconic aberration race in your campaign (or to survive such an event, if you are a player) can be found in this book. Each chapter devoted to one of the major aberration races also includes an encounter site, complete with keyed locations and ready to be used in an existing campaign.
Unlike the creatures that populate Draconomicon or Libris Mortis, aberrations share few common characteristics other than a broad thematic link. Other than the fact that they're all inhuman monsters that have powerful magical abilities and dwell deep underground, aboleths, mind flayers, and beholders do not really share any common origins or physiology. Therefore, the major races of aberrations are each discussed in their own chapter, with little reference to other aberrations.
The major aberration races include the following monsters:
Aboleths, or the deep masters, are the loathsome lords of the underground seas. Perhaps the most alien and inscrutable of all the major aberration races, the aboleths are mighty psions and mages whose sinister influence wells up from the deepest places in the earth.
Beholders, the terrible eye tyrants, command fearsome innate magical power. With a single glance they kill, paralyze, confuse, or enslave their foes. Rapacious and arrogant, a single beholder can easily become the overlord of its own realm of evil.
Mind flayers, or illithids, are brilliant, cruel, and terrifying creatures. Mind flayers might comprise the single most dangerous threat to the dominion of humanoids in the daylight lands of the surface world.
Neogi, the slave takers, are a race of greedy and sinister merchants who spin their webs of gold and misery across the human world.
Grell, or the eaters, are an alien race of predators that haunt the wild and lonely places of the world. Armed with an indecipherable admixture of alchemy and science, the fearsome grell ruthlessly destroy all other races that blunder into their territory.
The Tsochari, or the wearers of the flesh, are a race of invasive parasites that wear the stolen bodies of their victims so that they can pass in human society.
The six races mentioned here pose the most widespread and virulent threats to humans and other good races. They combine magical power, ruthless genius, and cold, calculating malice; they are alien and inscrutable, things born of madness and nightmare. Brave indeed are the heroes who venture into their domains.
Of course, the Far Realm and the deep, dark places of the earth are responsible for spawning forth many more creatures than these. Many other aberrations can be found in this book, including the half-farspawn, a new template for the offspring of creatures that have consorted with aberrations; the psionic psurlon; and the bizarre silthilar, masters of grafts.

P.S. Dragon Compendium includes Bleeder Beholder, which have technically playable (if insanely high) LA +16. Thus, playing at sufficiently high level, Bleeder Beholder Beholder Mage PC is completely possible.
The "Special: Must put out central antimagic eye" requirement may look like obstacle against Bleeder Beholder Mage (Bleeder don't have it) - but, at such high level, eye in question can be just grafted in (before being put out)

[Gruftzwerg]

Races of Destiny uses those rules too...
RAW: "you get the same answer as above"
RAI: more evidence that this maybe intended as global rule

(as always: remind you all that I don't suggest to play RAW here. So don't get my intentions wrong here. Especially for any long time lurkers or newcomers who maybe don't get the intend of the RAW discussion here).



I'm not against it - but what would happen if somebody playing as "vanilla" Cave Troll?
How it would level up (in your opinion)?
The "vanilla version" would advance as it's entry says: by HD.

Unless you somehow change that later (e.g. maybe an acquired template, dunno if there is an acquired template that changes Advancement to "by class"), he won't be able to gain class levels.

Or you need to rely on a different homebrewed version (non-vanilla) as said.



Also:
I know. And RAI you get all the points here.

But by strict RAW this still doesn't give them the stat "Race:" as Savage Species does for PC..




P.S. Dragon Compendium includes Bleeder Beholder, which have technically playable (if insanely high) LA +16. Thus, playing at sufficiently high level, Bleeder Beholder Beholder Mage PC is completely possible.
The "Special: Must put out central antimagic eye" requirement may look like obstacle against Bleeder Beholder Mage (Bleeder don't have it) - but, at such high level, eye in question can be just grafted in (before being put out)
Impressive find. I really mean it. And yeah, aside from the manageable Central Eye problem this one has the potential to be almost 100% RAW legal IF created as PC and IF we assume that they qualify as "true Beholder" (whatever that means..^^).

[Gruftzwerg]

I have updated the Rules section of the build.

I added a summary (from my point of view) of the rule discussion regarding the "Race:" requirement and the issues that TO Beholder Mage builds have in general.

I hope you all enjoyed this messy build and wanted to thank everyone for participating in the discussions.



Next build should be going out today if nothing screws my time schedule for today.
And I promise that this is more on the practical side of builds ;)


Glaive'ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)