Why don't we have more (or any) unlimited duration concentration spells?

[Greywander]

I'm considering taking Dancing Lights on my character for an upcoming campaign and one thing I noticed is the pitifully short 1 minute duration. But it's a cantrip, so you can just recast it when it expires. It's not a combat spell, so the action cost to recast is inconsequential. It does require verbal components, which could give you away if you're trying to be stealthy (which itself doesn't make a lot of sense since it seems to be a stealth oriented spell), so that is something to consider. But I can't help but wonder why they don't just make the duration infinite as long as you keep concentrating on it? Why don't we see any spells with infinite duration while maintaining concentration?

There are some cases where you wouldn't want to do this. For example, if you could just concentrate on Haste all day it would be a very strong buff with a minimal setup cost (cast once after each long rest). Some spell effects can be moved away from you after the initial cast (especially if they target a creature), and the duration imposes a practical limit of how far it can get from you. That said, I'm not sure you can maintain concentration through a long rest (you would at least have to not require sleep), and the need to use other concentration spells means maintaining a single spell all day isn't usually practical. The spell slot drain seems like the most compelling reason to avoid infinite duration spells, but this isn't a factor for cantrips or other at-will spells (such as from some warlock invocations). On the other hand, it could be an interesting way to balance concentration spells so they're not strictly worse than non-concentration spells. You could even have spells that allow casting it either with or without concentration, depending on whether you want an infinite duration or if you need the concentration slot for something else.

Is this something they should add (or should have added)? Are there any spells you'd make this change to? Does it seem appropriate for Dancing Lights specifically? What about, for example, adding the option for infinite duration concentration to spells that don't already require it, such as Disguise Self?

[Unoriginal]

You're forgetting an important factor: cantrips like Dancing Light are supposed to be weak and feel weak.

Even if it's not a combat spell, you may need Dancing Light in combat, or while chasing someone, or while doing a trap-disarming challenge. Having a 10 rounds duration really put into perspective how unreliable such a magic trick is. And that's assuming you cast it just before the combat, if you cast it 3/4 of a minute ago you'll likely have to re-cast it mid-combat.

Or you have to use a different light source. Because Dancing Light isn't a reliable-duration light source, and the duration reflect that on top of the Concentration requirement.

Even if you're not in initiative order, having to re-cast the cantrip constantly really gives the impression you're fidgeting with something that's just barely working. So there is a ludonarrative reason for this duration, on top of the actual "it's not practical to have it as your one light source while combat/initiative order is going on".


On the other hand, it could be an interesting way to balance concentration spells so they're not strictly worse than non-concentration spells.

I would argue that most Concentration spells are much better than their Concentration-less equivalents



You could even have spells that allow casting it either with or without concentration, depending on whether you want an infinite duration or if you need the concentration slot for something else.

If you can just choose that means you can stack up spells which would currently require Concentration. This is almost always a bad idea.

[Vyke]

I'm considering taking Dancing Lights on my character for an upcoming campaign and one thing I noticed is the pitifully short 1 minute duration. But it's a cantrip, so you can just recast it when it expires. It's not a combat spell, so the action cost to recast is inconsequential. It does require verbal components, which could give you away if you're trying to be stealthy (which itself doesn't make a lot of sense since it seems to be a stealth oriented spell), so that is something to consider. But I can't help but wonder why they don't just make the duration infinite as long as you keep concentrating on it? Why don't we see any spells with infinite duration while maintaining concentration?

There are some cases where you wouldn't want to do this. For example, if you could just concentrate on Haste all day it would be a very strong buff with a minimal setup cost (cast once after each long rest). Some spell effects can be moved away from you after the initial cast (especially if they target a creature), and the duration imposes a practical limit of how far it can get from you. That said, I'm not sure you can maintain concentration through a long rest (you would at least have to not require sleep), and the need to use other concentration spells means maintaining a single spell all day isn't usually practical. The spell slot drain seems like the most compelling reason to avoid infinite duration spells, but this isn't a factor for cantrips or other at-will spells (such as from some warlock invocations). On the other hand, it could be an interesting way to balance concentration spells so they're not strictly worse than non-concentration spells. You could even have spells that allow casting it either with or without concentration, depending on whether you want an infinite duration or if you need the concentration slot for something else.

Is this something they should add (or should have added)? Are there any spells you'd make this change to? Does it seem appropriate for Dancing Lights specifically? What about, for example, adding the option for infinite duration concentration to spells that don't already require it, such as Disguise Self?

My gut tells me some of the Dancing Lights specifications are to distinguish it from Light.

As far as unlimited concentration, what happens if you cast it from a Glyph of Warding? That'd be my first concern.

[Greywander]

Even if you're not in initiative order, having to re-cast the cantrip constantly really gives the impression you're fidgeting with something that's just barely working. So there is a ludonarrative reason for this duration, on top of the actual "it's not practical to have it as your one light source while combat/initiative order is going on".
Hmm, would it possibly make sense to implement cantrip scaling but for the duration instead of damage? E.g. 1 minute in tier 1, 10 minutes in tier 2, 1 hour in tier 3, infinite in tier 4? I understand why non-damage cantrips don't usually need scaling, or more specifically why damage cantrips do need scaling, but this feels like a reasonable way to scale some utility cantrips. It might make sense for the cantrip to be"barely working" at 1st level, but not at 20th level.


I would argue that most Concentration spells are much better than their Concentration-less equivalents
Concentration isn't what makes them stronger, though. That's just the devs overtuning a spell and then trying to balance it by imposing an annoying limitation to it. There are a number of spells that would be fine if they didn't use concentration but get overshadowed by better options because they do. For example, if Spider Climb didn't require concentration then it would have a niche alongside Fly, but since it does require concentration you may as well replace it with Fly as soon as you can. You can't even upcast Spider Climb for multiple targets.

You could still have some spells with a finite duration and concentration. I did specifically call out Haste, for example. I'm just saying some spells could be given an infinite duration, with at-will spells having the strongest justification.


If you can just choose that means you can stack up spells which would currently require Concentration. This is almost always a bad idea.
You're talking about removing concentration from spells that already require it. That's certainly something you could do for some spells, but I hope I've made it clear I'm not suggesting this for every spell. But mostly I'm talking about simply extending the duration of concentration spells to infinite, and again not for every spell.

Does that make a little more sense?

[KorvinStarmast]

This edition must be getting stale. We are getting into a wrangle about dancing lights now? This amounts to picking the fly poop out of the pepper, or so it seems to me.

I like the spell.
You can morph it into a shape, but I will say that I'd like to see the duration be 10 minutes rather than 1. But I can live with 1, since it's a cantrip.

It's the concentration bit which has induced me to switch from DL to Light on my bard, though.
Bard uses too many conc spells already.

[Vyke]

Hmm, would it possibly make sense to implement cantrip scaling but for the duration instead of damage? E.g. 1 minute in tier 1, 10 minutes in tier 2, 1 hour in tier 3, infinite in tier 4? I understand why non-damage cantrips don't usually need scaling, or more specifically why damage cantrips do need scaling, but this feels like a reasonable way to scale some utility cantrips. It might make sense for the cantrip to be"barely working" at 1st level, but not at 20th level.

I mean. You could. But. Do you need to? Light lasts an hour already and doesn't need concentration. Sure you only get one ball of light but...

Main thing is they're two spells for different jobs. Light gives you a magical flashlight for exploring but its location is set in advance. Dancing Light creates moveable balls of light that you can use to distract people and remotely control. One is a general tool. It's efficient but not customisable. Dancing Lights is for finesse. It is customisable but not efficient. Sure, you can kind of twist each to do the other's job (but less effectively). Which do you need? Because there's pros and cons to both. It seems that the concerns are that Dancing Lights doesn't do Light's job as well as Light. Maybe I'm missing something.

Also I do agree with KorvinStarmast here. Of all the spells in the world to worry about I feel Dancing Lights features pretty low. I don't think I've ever had to make an even vaguely controversial adjudication about it. I don't really even remember it being cast by my players...

[Person_Man]

As some of us were discussing on the BG3 thread, a lot of people like having spells with a duration of “until your next Long Rest” and instant Rituals outside of combat (as opposed to 10 minute wait) which lets you use certain spells in conversation.

If something provides utility, and the player is giving up a resource to use it, I’m generally fine with a house rule that lets them use it in the most frictionless way that’s practicable.

[KorvinStarmast]

Main thing is they're two spells for different jobs.
Light gives you a magical flashlight for exploring but its location is set in advance.

Dancing Light creates moveable balls of light that you can use to distract people and remotely control.
One is a general tool. It's efficient but not customisable.
Dancing Lights is for finesse. It is customisable but not efficient.
Sure, you can kind of twist each to do the other's job (but less effectively). Which do you need? Because there's pros and cons to both. It seems that the concerns are that Dancing Lights doesn't do Light's job as well as Light. Maybe I'm missing something.
Well said. +3.

I don't really even remember it being cast by my players... I used with some frequency up until fourth level on my first bard. The concentration bit was eventually the deal breaker for me.

If something provides utility, and the player is giving up a resource to use it, I’m generally fine with a house rule that lets them use it in the most frictionless way that’s practicable. Cantrips don't use up a resource, but your post makes some sense to me.

[Kyovastra]

Something that comes to mind is if a spell like dancing lights could be concentrated on indefinitely, there would be some slightly weird consequences for world building. Imagine someone whose job is to concentrate on and maintain dancing lights all day (sounds like a wizard's idea to solve unemployment problems in a high magic area with a modified cantrip).

Obviously, that's not a particularly bad example of a consequence since it doesn't really affect gameplay, and I don't think world building implications have ever really been taken into consideration in D&D when it comes to spell design, but I think unintended consequences in general have been a fear for the 5e team from the start (and moreso now), and if even dancing lights having unlimited duration might a noticeable (if insignificant) effect, what about other spells?

If disguise self could be concentrated on to last indefinitely, for example, it would go from being a relatively small threat to something that would have to be actively watched for everywhere. That's starting to go from just being a world building consequence to something that affects gameplay, since even if the DM doesn't make it have that impact on the setting, players would have much more reason to be suspicious someone might actually be affected by the spell. Plus, maybe more importantly, players could make use of it much more easily and cast it way in advance from where they think they might need it.

That's just with a cantrip and 1st-level spell. Personally, I'm surprised there's not more spells that let you upcast to increase their durations. Bestow curse, hex, and planar binding are the only ones that come to mind off the top of my head.

[Unoriginal]

IMO, I can't see any spell that would be better for the game if it had the option to be always-on so long as you can concentrate on it.

Spells don't cost enough ressources as it is now.

At best, "can turn a spell's duration into 'infinite so long as you pay Sorcery points every X time', with concentration" would make for an interesting Metamagic.

[Greywander]

I mean. You could. But. Do you need to? Light lasts an hour already and doesn't need concentration. Sure you only get one ball of light but...
I'm not really looking to use it for illumination, it's not even that bad of a spell, I just don't want to regret taking it instead of something "better". Mage Hand or Thaumaturgy are the other cantrips I was considering, but Dancing Lights would be a great thematic fit for the character.


Also I do agree with KorvinStarmast here. Of all the spells in the world to worry about I feel Dancing Lights features pretty low. I don't think I've ever had to make an even vaguely controversial adjudication about it. I don't really even remember it being cast by my players...

Well said. +3.
I used with some frequency up until fourth level on my first bard. The concentration bit was eventually the deal breaker for me.
"I don't remember anyone using it..." "Concentration was a deal breaker..." What I'm hearing is that the spell is underpowered and needs a buff.

This thread isn't even about Dancing Lights specifically, that was just the jumping off point for the topic. I think it could have been interesting if the game were designed from the start such that no spell requires concentration, but all spells with a non-instantaneous duration can use concentration to extend the duration indefinitely. Obviously, there's a lot of spells that would be broken if that were implemented now, but it could still work for some spells. It's just a little baffling that they didn't use this at all. There might be a couple of spells that work this way, but I think you can count them all on one hand.

[Unoriginal]

This thread isn't even about Dancing Lights specifically, that was just the jumping off point for the topic. I think it could have been interesting if the game were designed from the start such that no spell requires concentration, but all spells with a non-instantaneous duration can use concentration to extend the duration indefinitely. Obviously, there's a lot of spells that would be broken if that were implemented now, but it could still work for some spells. It's just a little baffling that they didn't use this at all. There might be a couple of spells that work this way, but I think you can count them all on one hand.

Concentration first appeared to limit spells that were historically part of the "and the wizard stacked 20 spells before the fight" routine.

By this I mean that the spells that got hit with Concentration first already existed in one form or another in past editions and they didn't rebuild them from scratch each time.

It's probably why they didn't do as you find baffling they didn't do.

[RSP]

So basically an upcast Hex?

[Psyren]

This edition must be getting stale. We are getting into a wrangle about dancing lights now? This amounts to picking the fly poop out of the pepper, or so it seems to me.

I died :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

And Dancing Lights could use a buff. Other than rudimentary signals - which you can accomplish much better via Message or even Minor Illusion anyway, and do much more besides - I see pretty much no reason to pick it over Light.

[Witty Username]

I died :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

And Dancing Lights could use a buff. Other than rudimentary signals - which you can accomplish much better via Message or even Minor Illusion anyway, and do much more besides - I see pretty much no reason to pick it over Light.

Dancing lights is a superior vision spell over light for parties with high amounts of darkvision, as it creates a light source that is generally slanted in the party's favor.

Past that though it is lackluster in comparison to other spells like prestidigitation, as the increased flexibility is pretty large in comparison to the minor loss in power.

[Psyren]

Dancing lights is a superior vision spell over light for parties with high amounts of darkvision, as it creates a light source that is generally slanted in the party's favor.

If you have a mix of darkvision and non-darkvision party members, just spend 10gp on a bullseye lantern. Maximum vision for everyone, the darkvision people get to hide, and no need to concentrate.

[Greywander]

Concentration first appeared to limit spells that were historically part of the "and the wizard stacked 20 spells before the fight" routine.
That was certainly a problem that needed to be addressed. I wonder if limiting spell slots might have been a better solution. If every caster used something like Pact Magic then it just wouldn't be practical to stack a bunch of buffs even if they could, as they would run out of spell slots fast.


It's probably why they didn't do as you find baffling they didn't do.
But not every spell is a legacy carryover, there are plenty of new spells that could have used this as a mechanic but don't. Even many of the legacy spells have minor or major changes made to them to adapt them to the new edition. And besides, concentration in this form is new to 5e, so either they made the spells more powerful to balance out concentration, or they weren't deemed powerful enough to warrant such a restriction in the previous edition (which, to be fair, could have been considered a mistake that they were trying to correct in 5e).


If you have a mix of darkvision and non-darkvision party members, just spend 10gp on a bullseye lantern. Maximum vision for everyone, the darkvision people get to hide, and no need to concentrate.
And you can have the character take Mage Hand instead of Dancing Lights and hold the lantern at a distance. It's not as good; you can only carry one lantern instead of four, you're limited to a 30 foot range (60 feet if you also have Telekinetic) instead of 120 feet, and you may have to leave the lantern behind on occasion. But it's "good enough" for most potential applications, and Mage Hand is good for vastly more things that Dancing Lights can't do at all. And it doesn't require concentration.

Like I said, Dancing Lights isn't actually that bad, it's just not good enough to compete with most other utility cantrips. Even if you lifted the concentration requirement, it would still have a hard time competing. Now, what would make it competitive would be if the dim light it created could suppress bright light.

[Nagog]

Honestly some of my favorite spells are ones with this kind of functionality built into their upcasting. Major Image and Bestow Curse come to mind, and I've used both in the past specifically for their upcasted infinite duration, but they each also gain the benefits of not being concentration at a lower level than they gain infinite duration, so it kinda does but kinda doesn't fit this.

[Ionathus]

Keeping in mind that unless you're one of like half a dozen specific builds/races, "Duration: Until Dispelled (Concentration)" can also be read as "Duration: [However Long You Can Stay Awake] (Concentration)" :smallwink:

I can see some very fun opportunities for a spell with 24+ hours duration, with the caveat that the caster needs to spend their full attention on it and has to stay up for as long as they want it to last. (Trancing and other long rest mechanics are a matter of DM interpretation here, I'd probably say "all long rests break Concentration" but I know there are some other rulings out there). I can see scenarios where it's more useful to the party to have the wizard lose a long rest to keep a high-powered spell going for as long as possible, potentially risking levels of exhaustion and definitely losing the opportunity to rejuvenate spell slots and hitpoints.