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Kizara
2007-12-08, 10:37 PM
Alright, so our dread necro pulled this out last game:

Summon Undead III says you can summon in a "Huge Skeleton" however, nowhere can I find where it specifies what KIND of huge skeleton.
So, huge red dragon skeletons and cloud giant skeletons (both in the MM examples of the template) abound. This, of course, is obscenely overpowered both in comparison to the other choices in this spell and the Summon Monster III spell and.... any kind of sense.

So, forumities, my DM has asked me to find some RAW in libris motris stating what kind of skeletons and such those spells are SUPPOSED to summon. Otherwise, my cleric is going to be casting Summon Undead IV to get 2 cloud giant skeletons every round in every fight. Considering this is beating out all other options I could take as a DMM cheese cleric, that's pretty imba...

Nermy
2007-12-08, 10:49 PM
According to Spell Compendium you can only use it to summon a Ghoul, Troll Skeleton, or Ogre Zombie.

I'm not sure what the ruling is on conflicting sources, but I think it was brought up recently on the boards so I'm sure someone knows.

Kizara
2007-12-08, 10:51 PM
According to Spell Compendium you can only use it to summon a Ghoul, Troll Skeleton, or Ogre Zombie.

I'm not sure what the ruling is on conflicting sources, but I think it was brought up recently on the boards so I'm sure someone knows.

We dont have/use Spell Compendium oddly enough, so that isn't helpful to me.

I need ethier something in Libris Motris or Eratta or something.

TheElfLord
2007-12-08, 10:56 PM
Is Libris Mortus 3.5? Because in 3.0 Skeleton was not a template, but a monster with set stats for each size. That sounds a lot like what the spell was going for.

Nermy
2007-12-08, 10:56 PM
Got it! It was hidden in Players Guide to Faerun errata:


Page 114: Summon Undead I Spell
Add the following sentence to the spell description: “No
undead creature you summon can have more Hit Dice
than your caster level +1.”

The way the other spells are worded, this consequently edits them as well.

Kaelik
2007-12-08, 11:34 PM
The problem is that the Libris Mortis versions are horrible since a Caster level 20 Cleric could use Summon Undead I (A first level spell) to summon a creature with 20 + HD (+4 Pearl Power +1 extra for spell +1 Ioun Stone + 2 Domain) as long as it is medium.

Summons based on Caster level not slot are retarded. And with a high enough Caster level you can summon Red Dragons still. That's why you should use the Spell Compendium where the nerfed such super summon spells down to acceptable standards. (By giving specific lists instead of basing the HD on Caster level and the size on spell level.)

Kizara
2007-12-08, 11:36 PM
Is Libris Mortus 3.5? Because in 3.0 Skeleton was not a template, but a monster with set stats for each size. That sounds a lot like what the spell was going for.

Yes, and I completely agree. The spell is pretty poorly worded.

Also, Libris Motris came out after the first few Complete's for 3.5 so not only is it a 3.5 source, but not even that old of one.

Nermy:

Thank you, but I was hoping for something that wasn't an obscure book for a campaign setting that we don't use. Noone is going to accept that source as relivant for us.

RTGoodman
2007-12-08, 11:41 PM
You may just have to find Spell Compendium. As far as I know, as with the other compendiums, it's supposed to be the definitive source for its topic - in this case, that means that its version of Summon Undead is the correct one.

Kizara
2007-12-08, 11:44 PM
You may just have to find Spell Compendium. As far as I know, as with the other compendiums, it's supposed to be the definitive source for its topic - in this case, that means that its version of Summon Undead is the correct one.

I have access to the book, just was hoping I wouldn't need to referance it as the group's attitude is "if we dont have a hardcover copy of that, it doesn't exist to us" and thus my .pdf of it is fine for my referance but will be a hard sell for a RAW statement.

You are right though, I may have to try to use it.

Animefunkmaster
2007-12-08, 11:47 PM
Yes, and I completely agree. The spell is pretty poorly worded.

The typo in Libris Mortis is covered up by the reprint in heroes of horror. Your dread necro should be looking here for his spells anyways.

Summon Undead III is like summon natures alley/monster except with a different list. So the spell says: 1 undead from the 3rd level list, or 2 from the 2nd, or 3 from the 1st. Heroes of Horror Pg 132-133.

The list is:
1st:
---------------
Human Skeleton
Kobold Zombie

2nd:
---------------
Owl Bear Skeleton
Bugbear Zombie

3rd:
---------------
Ghoul
Troll Skeleton
Ogre Zombie

Kizara
2007-12-09, 12:07 AM
The typo in Libris Mortis is covered up by the reprint in heroes of horror. Your dread necro should be looking here for his spells anyways.

Summon Undead III is like summon natures alley/monster except with a different list. So the spell says: 1 undead from the 3rd level list, or 2 from the 2nd, or 3 from the 1st. Heroes of Horror Pg 132-133.

The list is:
1st:
---------------
Human Skeleton
Kobold Zombie

2nd:
---------------
Owl Bear Skeleton
Bugbear Zombie

3rd:
---------------
Ghoul
Troll Skeleton
Ogre Zombie

Thank you very much. That's perfect. I don't have Heroes of Horror myself, so I couldn't look through it. Thanks again.

JaxGaret
2007-12-09, 12:31 AM
I was hoping for something that wasn't an obscure book for a campaign setting that we don't use. Noone is going to accept that source as relivant for us.

PGTF is one of the two core FR books, it is not obscure at all. Libris Mortis is IMO more obscure and definitely less widely utilized.


I have access to the book, just was hoping I wouldn't need to referance it as the group's attitude is "if we dont have a hardcover copy of that, it doesn't exist to us" and thus my .pdf of it is fine for my referance but will be a hard sell for a RAW statement.

You are right though, I may have to try to use it.

That doesn't make one whit of sense. Is the text magically more official when seen in book form as opposed to pdf form?

Kizara
2007-12-09, 12:42 AM
PGTF is one of the two core FR books, it is not obscure at all. Libris Mortis is IMO more obscure and definitely less widely utilized.



That doesn't make one whit of sense. Is the text magically more official when seen in book form as opposed to pdf form?

I can't bring my pdf with me on a 40 min drive to where my group meets in a hobby store. If the group met at my place, then yes, that wouldn't make much sense.

As for FR, it might be, but that doesn't really mean much to me.

RTGoodman
2007-12-09, 12:43 AM
I probably should have just looked for this before, but I agree with the above poster - if the character is a Dread Necromancer, he should probably just use the version from Heroes of Horror. Especially since it says: "Note: The descriptions of the summon undead spells presented here supersede earlier published descriptions."

And luckily for you, that particular version of the Summon Undead line is available here on the Wizard's website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=5).