Was this a bad call?

[Railak]

So tonight's game, first session of a campaign, the party started and are currently level 3, It's a sky pirates campaign. Well the party were abandoned by their previous captain during a raid where one of the nations' military vessels showed up.
Long story short they woke up met a different pirate who told them how to use his ship. After a prison break where the old pirate didn't make it out they did and took his ship. After that they went to the nearest pirate port, think like Tortuga from POTC.
At this port they found their previous captain and one of the players challenged him to a fight.
Now mind you this captain had been sailing for a while, and the player is level 3. I figured the captain needs to be stronger than most, or all, of his ship so I figured about level 10, so i pulled up just a random level 10 fighter. Thankfully the player chose nonlethal brawl, although I probably would have non lethaled him anyways. And got his ass handed to him in 3 rounds. Neither had improved unarmed strike either.

The player got mad when he realized just how much stronger the older pirate was than his character. Mind you the campaign had just started, had not gained a single level beyond the start, and he was the ship's captain before. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that it happened.

[NontheistCleric]

Not unreasonable at all. In most settings, enemies are not automatically scaled to be beatable by the PCs, and they don't have to telegraph their strength via appearance, either.

If a player foolishly chooses to challenge someone they assume is weaker than them for no particular reason, it's on them when their character loses.

[JNAProductions]

I would’ve told the player “You’ve worked for this guy-you know he can kick your butt,” explicitly after they declared intent to challenge. (You might’ve done that, and just not mentioned it, but it doesn’t look like you did.) If they still decide to challenge him, it’s on them-they knew what would likely happen.

[Zanos]

RPG logic of the dude who is in charge being the strongest guy of any organization is so deeply ingrained in me that I kind of just assume that I'd get stomped if I tried to pick a fight with my actual boss as soon as the game started.

[Railak]

And during the fight, before each of the veteran pirate's turns I did ask if he wanted to keep going. I gave him an out every turn. He got knocked unconscious and then they threw him out of the bar.

[Asmotherion]

So tonight's game, first session of a campaign, the party started and are currently level 3, It's a sky pirates campaign. Well the party were abandoned by their previous captain during a raid where one of the nations' military vessels showed up.
Long story short they woke up met a different pirate who told them how to use his ship. After a prison break where the old pirate didn't make it out they did and took his ship. After that they went to the nearest pirate port, think like Tortuga from POTC.
At this port they found their previous captain and one of the players challenged him to a fight.
Now mind you this captain had been sailing for a while, and the player is level 3. I figured the captain needs to be stronger than most, or all, of his ship so I figured about level 10, so i pulled up just a random level 10 fighter. Thankfully the player chose nonlethal brawl, although I probably would have non lethaled him anyways. And got his ass handed to him in 3 rounds. Neither had improved unarmed strike either.

The player got mad when he realized just how much stronger the older pirate was than his character. Mind you the campaign had just started, had not gained a single level beyond the start, and he was the ship's captain before. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that it happened.

Some NPCs are not meant to be fought. If for example the players decided to fight a Lich at level 5, that's on them, not on the DM.

[KillianHawkeye]

Some NPCs are not meant to be fought. If for example the players decided to fight a Lich at level 5, that's on them, not on the DM.

That's true, of course, but it's also important to be aware that there's always a small chance that today is the day that your players will decide to punch God in the face. It's good to get used to how to handle those situations so you aren't caught by surprise.

[Paragon]

That's true, of course, but it's also important to be aware that there's always a small chance that today is the day that your players will decide to punch God in the face. It's good to get used to how to handle those situations so you aren't caught by surprise.

I'm open to have them try it sometimes but they should know it can't always end in glory.
They took on a mini-boss once that was meant for a bigger fight later and kicked his ass. That was a good time for everyone.
Ofc, later we talked and they realized I would have TPK them without a second thought if the dice hadn't been on their side. From there on out, they have been more careful.

[pabelfly]

You've given the player a minor negative consequence for their actions - temporary unconsciousness and a small amount of humiliation - but it was reasonable given the circumstances, and the player still has their character. I think you did fine.

Depending on the player, you may need to be more direct about how lopsided some fights will be in future sessions. Some players can take a hint from story cues and tropes, others need to be all but told directly.

[Biggus]

Your player needs to remember he's 3rd level! There are a fair few people in the real world who are higher than third level, never mind in a typical D&D setting. If he'd been 15th level I'd have found a "what the Hell, you didn't tell us this guy is the most feared warrior on the seven seas!" reaction understandable. Unless you've specifically said that high-level NPCs are very rare in this setting, there's no reason to be surprised that a pirate captain can easily beat a 3rd-level character.

That said, I generally give a player an Int or Wis check if they're about to do something stupid (if there's any way their character could reasonably work out or guess that it's stupid).

[Elkad]

My players are well aware that sometimes they just need to run away.

They'll be tugging on the new guy's arm going "don't do it man".


Now you've got a nice side character too. He can stick his nose in their business a couple more times before they can actually beat him.

[Dawgmoah]

I believe you did a good call. The Captain is the Captain for a reason, and obviously had to fight his way to that position. The player should have known that at the start.
At low levels I will drop hints to my players that the person or creature they are facing is known for being strong, magic using, etc, etc.
I agree with the other posters in that since he sailed with the guy before they should have known he may be a bit more of a challenge.

And if the PC would have beat the Captain - a new legend would have been born from lucky dice rolls.

[Jay R]

In my "Rules for PCs", I wrote:


6. When you do the grand, heroic action from the stories that sometimes gets the hero killed, recognize and accept that it could get your PC killed.

Of course, these are my rules for my PCs. Not everybody accepts them. And that's fine; we don't all have to play the same way.

But there are some players who believe that any encounter, even one that the DM did not set up, must be CR-appropriate.

I suggest that you discuss it with your players. If I had a player who did this, I would tell him, "Look, I'm not trying to set up encounters to kill, or maim, or even embarrass your character. But I didn't set this one up. You did. You have player agency; I can't stop you from challenging the captain. But that was your choice, not mine. Next time, I strongly urge you to collect information when it's available. You knew people you could ask how good a fighter he was."

But it has to remain his choice. Back in 1976, at a gaming convention, some friends and I entered a D&D tournament. The teams were five 6th level characters. It included a 134-hit-die monster. No, that is not a typo -- the hydra had one hundred thirty four heads. [The rules were very different back then.] It was there to eliminate any party stupid enough to attack it.

We killed it.

If he wants to challenge a 10th level fighter, he can do so. Who knows? He might be clever (or lucky) enough to win. It's not your job to stop it. It's not even your job to tell him the captain is tenth level.

It is your job to provide ways for him to find out the captain's that good a fighter, if he bothers to try to find out.

[Seto]

You mentioned it was session 1 of a new campaign. Is that player new to RPGs? Are they used to other kinds of RPGs, but not D&D?

In real life or in any number of settings were "levels" don't exist or are more cosmetic, the player's assumption that they stood a chance would be reasonable. In D&D, it was wrong and needed to be corrected. I think you handled the situation perfectly, by showing them their misunderstanding without inflicting any major consequences.

[Chronos]

It sounds like the worst consequence of this is that he might be shunned in that one particular bar? Or maybe not even that: They might have just assumed that if he was drunk enough to challenge the captain, he needed to be cut off until he sobers up.

If anything, you were too soft on him: The penalties might not have been harsh enough for him to learn a lesson. At the very least, you probably want to hint "What do you think would have happened if you HADN'T specified unarmed and nonlethal?".

[rel]

The PC should know their captain's a badass, so you should tell the player it's a bad idea to pick a fight.

[RexDart]

I think it's an excellent opportunity for both player and character to learn a lesson.

To soften the blow, maybe the captain buys the character a drink after, and gives him some advice: "Och, I remember when I was a young lad with more moxie than sense meself...."

[Raven777]

Your player needs to remember he's 3rd level! There are a fair few people in the real world who are higher than third level, never mind in a typical D&D setting. If he'd been 15th level I'd have found a "what the Hell, you didn't tell us this guy is the most feared warrior on the seven seas!" reaction understandable.

Chiming in to mention that technically speaking, per Legend Lore (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm), 10th level is on the cusp of being such a legendary badass. Personally, I would peg the captain of a low profile local pirate outfit the same as a local guard-captain: something around 5th level. A 15th level pirate captain should achieve things beyond the earthly seven seas, and be well on their way to contend with fiends and liches across the astral seas.


As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds.

That being said, regardless of the above, OP handled his specific circumstances exactly as he should have. Player is being dumb-dumb.

[Seward]

All a matter of scale.

If the new Captain's ship was similar to the former-Captain PC's ship (ie similar culture, crew makeup, size), you would assume he'd be in shouting range and such a challenge might be possible, although I'd expect it to be a coin flip at best from context and also expect a challenge level of 1-2 levels around the PC's level, although context clues on how successful they seem to be might tip it, it might also mean he's a L1 expert with good pirating skills and has muscle to stomp challengers.

If I'm a level 3 schmuck taking on the captain of a much larger vessel (think "row from shore in canoes' level pirate vs Viking longship), again assuming a culture where authority equals asskicking and some kind of cultural dueling mechanism was used to enforce leadership, I would expect to get my ass kicked. After all, if I was at that level, that's the kind of ship that would have been in my backstory, barring something weird like age or level drain or similar reducing you from your former glory to explain why I'm only L3. But in that case, I'd also expect to know better to regain the lost capability before challenging for leadership.

L3 in-game is kind of at the veteran soldier level. You're not a complete noob but you don't think you are Rambo either. You have seen lots of folks and know people who you could never beat one on one and might have interacted briefly with the kind of uyltimate badass (ie 8-10th level or so) who wouldn't even notice if you joined into a fight barring a massive numbers advantage and even then the street would be covered with blood and bodies in any fight that remotely challenged them. (There's a scene in the Witcher series where local toughs decided to try on the Witcher. They don't even bother to show the fight. Just all the bodies in the village streets afterwards. I think the Witcher needed basically to wash his face and swig a drink to recover...). 3.x D&D scales pretty fast on the badass metric. A level 3 dude with proper WBL will be obvious just from all his masterwork gear (which always makes me wonder when a bunch of L1 rogues try to ambush a L3 party..). You might not know in a street encounter that you are outclassed just from gear between something like L3 and L5 but in a dueling challenge for leadership? There should be context clues and if the PC ignores them they should take their lumps as consequences and maybe do better next time (some folks will always be Leeroy Jenkins or someone like Joxar the Mighty, who imagine their own prowess greater than it is, no matter how much experience they or their character gets).

If you ever encountered anyone in the second half of the 1-20 progression they'd seem as impossible to beat as an office worker with a butter knife staring down an Abrams tank.

So no, not a bad call assuming a normal campaign with typical level ranges for NPC roles (a campaign where you went to some kind of goofy Hogwarts style school to become a soldier and didn't graduate as an infantry grunt until you were 8th level after 4 years of shenanigans would scale differently).

As a side note, going the other way, it helps immersion if as characters obviously get more powerful they're treated with more deference/fear/etc. "They killed Superman...lets get them!" type charges are funny to watch in a movie but make no ****ing sense in any situation where the attacker cares about living.

[Pugwampy]

Yes it was a very very bad call .

Its the players 1st session . Its the first time the players are trying out their characters . 1st game is supposed to be very smooth and very easy going .

What great lesson or purpose did you impart on your players getting the @%#$ beaten out of them ? Was it worth it ?
Would the game have been broken or ended if captain lost a fight ? Are your players getting an easy time next session ? What exactly do you think your part in the DND game is ?

You are DM why are you wasting 1 hour building a lvl 10 Captain. If you wanna murder them just say "Meteor falls on your head , you die , Thank you come again ." Same diff less effort .

Your pets are not supposed win . Players have the most fun when they are wrecking dungeon monsters not when you wrecking them because you 10 levels higher .

This is a team game not DM vs Players .

[Crake]

Yes it was a very very bad call .

Its the players 1st session . Its the first time the players are trying out their characters . 1st game is supposed to be very smooth and very easy going .

What great lesson or purpose did you impart on your players getting the @%#$ beaten out of them ? Was it worth it ?
Would the game have been broken or ended if captain lost a fight ? Are your players getting an easy time next session ? What exactly do you think your part in the DND game is ?

You are DM why are you wasting 1 hour building a lvl 10 Captain. If you wanna murder them just say "Meteor falls on your head , you die , Thank you come again ." Same diff less effort .

Your pets are not supposed win . Players have the most fun when they are wrecking dungeon monsters not when you wrecking them because you 10 levels higher .

This is a team game not DM vs Players .

Yeah, hard disagree. You ask what great lesson? The lesson that they arent the top dogs at level 3. The DMG even literally has a section for this (page 135 if youre curious), when players start thinking they’re untouchable, you need to remind them that while they’re special, they arent unique, and that theres always a bigger fish, meaning their actions have consequences.

Aka: Talk sh*t get hit.

[Lord Torath]

You are DM why are you wasting 1 hour building a lvl 10 Captain. He didn't. He spent two minutes, if that:
I figured the captain needs to be stronger than most, or all, of his ship so I figured about level 10, so i pulled up just a random level 10 fighter.

I'll agree that you made the right call. Players need to know that the world doesn't arrange itself for their convenience, and that their actions have meaningful consequences. Again, you're not setting them up to fail, but they still have their agency, and if the player really wants to get their PC killed, you will oblige them.

[Pugwampy]

You ask what great lesson? The lesson that they arent the top dogs at level 3.

Why not ? Are they not the Heroes of the story ? Its your world, your rules . They are grunts or heroes because you choose .

A Dungeon Master only has all the power .......... until players decide they dont want to play with him . There is no need to buff any enemy , the dice rolls will take care of that .

Be honest , you want happy players who enjoyed the game showering you in praises possibly due to the fact they steamrolled your dungeon ?

Or players too scared to try anything or explore . Perhaps annoyed players expecting you to fudge your pets and smacking them around for your lols .

Ever heard the word DM PET SYNDROME ? You so love your lil monsters that it annoys upsets and angers you that the Players dared to murder them for free . Which is literally the job of the players .

Learn to give and take , learn to let go . Creating an amazing game session is more important than any argument justifying your actions for a lvl 1 vs lvl 10 encounter . This is not a scenario that people will talk about for years .

If players are not having fun ......... we the DM,s FAILED .

[Satinavian]

Why not ? Are they not the Heroes of the story ? Its your world, your rules . They are grunts or heroes because you choose . The typical D&D zero-to-hero-story does not particualry benefit from having the PCs start powerful. And as D&D has one of the most extreme power increases with rising experiences that is the most likely story told.


A Dungeon Master only has all the power .......... until players decide they dont want to play with him . There is no need to buff any enemy , the dice rolls will take care of that . The enemy was not buffed. He never was weaker than a generic lv. 10 fighter. No fudging has occurred either.


Ever heard the word DM PET SYNDROME ? You so love your lil monsters that it annoys upsets and angers you that the Players dared to murder them for free . Which is literally the job of the players . A generic NPC that didn't even got assigned stats until the game needed them and then was handed utterly generic and uninspired values of roughly the right direction and power level is much, but certainly not a "DM pet".



I think the decision was right. That the player expected otherwise is an issue, but stuff like this happens. You might both work on improving your communication.

[Kurald Galain]

Be honest , you want happy players who enjoyed the game showering you in praises possibly due to the fact they steamrolled your dungeon ?
Well frankly, I would not shower anyone in praise if I "steamroller" their dungeon. I would find that far too easy and lacking both challenge and stakes.


Ever heard the word DM PET SYNDROME ?
Sure, but just because a major character is stronger than the party (for now) does not make him a DM Pet.

I get what you're saying, I've played with a couple of DMs who do that and it sure is annoying to have a DM pet, but that doesn't seem to have happened here.

[Cygnia]

Pug, you've got a level of venom here that seems a wee bit too personal...were you the player in the OP's game?

[Crake]

Pug, you've got a level of venom here that seems a wee bit too personal...were you the player in the OP's game?

Seems unlikely, but my guess is that they've had a bad experience with DM's in the past. Whether that stemmed from a bad DM, or from Pug being a problem player though... that's less clear.


Why not ? Are they not the Heroes of the story ? Its your world, your rules . They are grunts or heroes because you choose .

Hero? Not necessarily. Protagonist? Yes. The players are the protagonists. Ask yourself though, how many books or media have you read/watched, where the story's protagonist has faced no challenge or hardship? None. Because that doesn't make for an interesting story.


A Dungeon Master only has all the power .......... until players decide they dont want to play with him . There is no need to buff any enemy , the dice rolls will take care of that .

Correct, but DMs tend to be in higher demand than players, so the DM does actually get to have more power on deciding the theme and atmosphere of the game they want to run. Within reason of course, but it's far easier for a DM to find players that match their playstyle than it is for players to find a DM.


Be honest , you want happy players who enjoyed the game showering you in praises possibly due to the fact they steamrolled your dungeon ?

The happiness you'd experience from steamrolling a dungeon is the same happiness you get from enabling cheats in a video game. Cheap thrills that are quickly forgotten, and replaced with boredom and the desire to move onto something else.


Or players too scared to try anything or explore . Perhaps annoyed players expecting you to fudge your pets and smacking them around for your lols .

Teaching players caution isn't the same as having them get beaten up at every turn.


Ever heard the word DM PET SYNDROME ? You so love your lil monsters that it annoys upsets and angers you that the Players dared to murder them for free . Which is literally the job of the players .

It's one thing to not want the players to kill a monster, it's another to say that the players haven't earned the ability to defeat a powerful and experienced NPC without accumulating a measure of power themselves.


Learn to give and take , learn to let go . Creating an amazing game session is more important than any argument justifying your actions for a lvl 1 vs lvl 10 encounter . This is not a scenario that people will talk about for years .

Correct, but neither are any of the things you've described. No single session adventure will be talked about for years, because there's no investment. Those epic moments that people will talk about for years and years come after months and months of sessions, and character growth, and meaningful interactions, sometimes defeats, overcoming hardships, and then finally, achieving that campaign-long goal. Walking up and defeating a pirate captain in session one will just make the campaign feel like a joke, and won't be remembered by next week when the players want to play something else.


If players are not having fun ......... we the DM,s FAILED .

Fun isn't actually necessarily the aim of the game. A lot of people play role playing games to step into the role of a character, and experience something different and new and, as with life, there is no such thing as a perpetual high. For the high points in a story to be meaningful and impactful, the story needs to have just as meaningful and impactful low points as well. Players might cry, players might feel heartache, and mourn loss, but that's what shows that the story mattered.

[blackwindbears]

So tonight's game, first session of a campaign, the party started and are currently level 3, It's a sky pirates campaign. Well the party were abandoned by their previous captain during a raid where one of the nations' military vessels showed up.
Long story short they woke up met a different pirate who told them how to use his ship. After a prison break where the old pirate didn't make it out they did and took his ship. After that they went to the nearest pirate port, think like Tortuga from POTC.
At this port they found their previous captain and one of the players challenged him to a fight.
Now mind you this captain had been sailing for a while, and the player is level 3. I figured the captain needs to be stronger than most, or all, of his ship so I figured about level 10, so i pulled up just a random level 10 fighter. Thankfully the player chose nonlethal brawl, although I probably would have non lethaled him anyways. And got his ass handed to him in 3 rounds. Neither had improved unarmed strike either.

The player got mad when he realized just how much stronger the older pirate was than his character. Mind you the campaign had just started, had not gained a single level beyond the start, and he was the ship's captain before. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that it happened.

1) I would not have statted him at 10, but at a lower level. More like 5.

2) Maximum engagement/fun is when the PCs fail at about 40% of encounters, adventures, campaigns.

Players hate losing, but they tire quickly of only winning. It's also a hard thing to figure out because they always prefer to win, so it's easy to assume that you'll improve your game by making sure they win more often.

If they fail 50% of the time for most people it feels "too hard" if they fail 30% of the time it can get boring, but if the stakes are high it's okay.

So to answer your question, yes, bad call, but you will make many bad calls. This one wasn't a big deal. You will make worse calls when the stakes are higher. Being a DM is hard.

Much worse is that you have a player that gets mad when they lose. Someone with that level of poor sportsmanship wouldn't be allowed at my table.

[Rynjin]

Eh, seems about right. Running teh Skull and Shackles Pathfinder AP, the crew starts as press-ganged under the thumb of Captain Harrigan, a 16th level mish-mash of different martial classes. He gives the party a chance to challenge him for supremacy and anyone dumb enough to do so gets beat up. People learn not to **** with the captain, life goes on.

The slightly more frustrating one is when the party re-encounters him at level 10 and the PC captain challenges him to a rematch...this time to the death. But at least by that point the party has easy access to rezzes.

[awa]

Chiming in to mention that technically speaking, per Legend Lore (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm), 10th level is on the cusp of being such a legendary badass. Personally, I would peg the captain of a low profile local pirate outfit the same as a local guard-captain: something around 5th level. A 15th level pirate captain should achieve things beyond the earthly seven seas, and be well on their way to contend with fiends and liches across the astral seas.




I would point out that the game is widely inconsistent about this cityscape has a generic city guard veteran as a level 10 warrior and the generic guards men being level 5.

Based on the main premise I would say you should have telegraphed that your opponent was a superior warrior, if they had served together in any capacity that should be information they had, further even if they hadn't they should have known just based on reputation.

In my own games I tend to allow players to judge the relative power level of other warriors just by looking at them.

[Elkad]

Yes it was a very very bad call .

Its the players 1st session . Its the first time the players are trying out their characters . 1st game is supposed to be very smooth and very easy going .

Instructing your players that there are things Not-To-Be-Futzed-With is part of that first session world introduction.
Whether by a non-lethal fight, or making them waste all their rations hiding in a cave from an Adult Dragon for several days the first time they venture out of town, or whatever other method you choose.

It's not DM godcomplex, it's explaining to them that maybe their actions should at least make the appearance of following the stepping stones I have provided, because there is no Bard the Bowman to save them if they attract Smaug's attention.

[Jaided]

As one of my GMs told me once, "my mission objective points are level scaled, my worlds are not. If I tell you at level 4 to go into the sewers to collect a magic rock, the sewers are scaled to level 4. If you decide at level 3 to explore The Cave of No Return, you will find out why it is called The Cave of No Return."

Your player picked the fight, it wasn't like you decided to make it a quest objective. That is his fault, not yours

[Pugwampy]

Pug, you've got a level of venom here that seems a wee bit too personal...were you the player in the OP's game?

No I just been on both sides as DM and Player . Its not fun . Admittedly i recently fudged my pugwampies and my players did not have fun getting whupped and i am ashamed about that . My intentions were to make it a bit more challenging , not unbeatable . I am frustrated at DM,s who purposely create an impossible encounter .



Fun isn't actually necessarily the aim of the game.

Why are you playing then ?



The happiness you'd experience from steamrolling a dungeon is the same happiness you get from enabling cheats in a video game. Cheap thrills that are quickly forgotten, and replaced with boredom and the desire to move onto something else.

Same diff if the players are not having any fun because its too easy , no problem I will make em stronger but not a lvl 10 difference .



Your player picked the fight, it wasn't like you decided to make it a quest objective. That is his fault, not yours

It is your fault if you have a cave of no return encounter set up and ready to murder your players . How would they know its a choice unless you mentioned it . I never met any player who made a formal request for a monster to one hit kill him ? Have you ?



It's not DM godcomplex, it's explaining to them that maybe their actions should at least make the appearance of following the stepping stones I have provided, because there is no Bard the Bowman to save them if they attract Smaug's attention.

YOU decide if Smaug exists or wants to pay them a visit or not .

[Crake]

No I just been on both sides as DM and Player . Its not fun . Admittedly i recently fudged my pugwampies and my players did not have fun getting whupped and i am ashamed about that . My intentions were to make it a bit more challenging , not unbeatable . I am frustrated at DM,s who purposely create an impossible encounter .




Why are you playing then ?




Same diff if the players are not having any fun because its too easy , no problem I will make em stronger but not a lvl 10 difference .




It is your fault if you have a cave of no return encounter set up and ready to murder your players . How would they know its a choice unless you mentioned it . I never met any player who made a formal request for a monster to one hit kill him ? Have you ?




YOU decide if Smaug exists or wants to pay them a visit or not .

Pug, everything you're describing is what's known as a "Tailored world". There are other people who prefer to play in what's known as a "status quo" campaigns, where the things are what they are, and the players have to find a way to deal with what's presented, rather than having the foreknowledge that everything that's put in front of them is, by design, made to be beatable. In a status quo world, nothing is designed to be beatable, or unbeatable, it's designed to be what it is. Whether it's beatable or unbeatable is entirely up to the players.

There's nothing wrong with either playstyle, but saying other people are wrong for enjoying things differently than you just comes across as a tantrum.

[Jaided]

It is your fault if you have a cave of no return encounter set up and ready to murder your players . How would they know its a choice unless you mentioned it . I never met any player who made a formal request for a monster to one hit kill him ? Have you ?




YOU decide if Smaug exists or wants to pay them a visit or not .

Smaug is there. The Cave of No Return is there. I'm not putting the quest objective in the Cave before they are ready to tackle it. But if the players decide to journey from the Western Provinces to the Eastern Provinces of the Empire at level 3 because they found a book mentioning a Vampire Lord that was sealed in a cave, he doesn't have a threat to his existence, he has new thralls.

The Warrior King who is a retired high level adventurer isn't on vacation if they decide to raid the Royal Treasury. He is probably going to come downstairs to the coffers to find out who is killing his guards.

On the flip side of that coin, the random goblins who are raiding outlying villages don't disappear from the world when the party levels up to the point where they are no longer a threat. They can continue merrily slaughtering goblins if they want to. They won't gain XP, but they are certainly welcome to.

The world doesn't exist in a 5 CR range. If you go to the right (or wrong depending on your point of view) part of the world, most of the monster manual exists somewhere in the world. Sticking a Pit Fiend in the sewers when your level one party is on the way down there to kill rats is a jerk move. That doesn't mean that there aren't Pit Fiends.

Not only is this ok, it is arguably EXPECTED as there is an entire usage of Sense Motive listed in Complete Adventurer that lets you determine what their power is compared to yours with the "Dire Threat" tier being a CR that is 4 or more levels above you. While Complete Adventurer isn't Core, it isn't exactly Dragon Magazine either.

[GloatingSwine]

This is one of those cases where you might want to consider dropping an anvil with "are you sure" written on it in front of the player before dropping the "I told you so" anvil on their head.

Give them some relatively obvious hints that their character should be able to pick up on that they're outmatched if they go through with the challenge. If they still want to do it then they can, nothing about the situation was wrong, just the player not having information that, realistically, their character probably should have. (They should have at least some sense of who's going to be decent in a fight, if fighting is part of their business).

[Pugwampy]

There's nothing wrong with either playstyle, but saying other people are wrong for enjoying things differently than you just comes across as a tantrum.

I never said that . If Players are properly informed and hundred percent onboard and even enjoy the idea that a random monster can swoop down and destroy a party at any given time or even offered the opportunity then I say go for it . We all here to have fun .

That was not the case of lvl 10 pirate vs lvl 1 player . The player thought he had a chance and had every right to be upset when he found out the power difference . He probably would have not done it if he knew beforehand .

If i want my silly story fairy town to be kept intact by having an invincible NPC fairy queen I will do so and if a player wants to kill her . I will inform the player that he wont win this .

Most rational players wont continue trying to murder Queen Escargo Pudding of Tiny Town although i can imagine a player wanting to see what happens if he tries. I will satisfy him and god mod him into a mouse .



But if the players decide to journey from the Western Provinces to the Eastern Provinces of the Empire at level 3 because they found a book mentioning a Vampire Lord that was sealed in a cave, he doesn't have a threat to his existence, he has new thralls.


You baiting them into doing it . Why ? My players have a hub town and a dungeon with the slightest description of the surrounding areas . I wont drop em a treasure map that sends them to the tomb of horrors .


They won't gain XP, but they are certainly welcome to.

Nobody likes XP nerf Dm,s .



This is one of those cases where you might want to consider dropping an anvil with "are you sure" written on it in front of the player before dropping the "I told you so" anvil on their head.

100 percent agree

[NontheistCleric]

That was not the case of lvl 10 pirate vs lvl 1 player . The player thought he had a chance and had every right to be upset when he found out the power difference . He probably would have not done it if he knew beforehand

Importantly, though, he didn't have a good reason to believe he had a chance. If I go out on the street right now and punch some guy in the face, I don't have the right to complain if he turns out to be a martial arts master.

In fact, given that the NPC in question here used to be their captain, I'd even say there would be some grounds for expecting him to be stronger.

[Satinavian]

You baiting them into doing it . Why ? My players have a hub town and a dungeon with the slightest description of the surrounding areas . I wont drop em a treasure map that sends them to a tomb of horrors dungeon .

a) Worldbuilding. Not everything remotely interesting or mentioned in a world meant to be an enemy for the PCs
b) Even if it is meant to be an enemy for the PCs, it might be an enemy for later. It is nice when those high power threat don't just pop up out of nowhere when the group reaches a high level but are forshadowed, organically built into the backgrond or hinted at from the beginning of the campaign.


You might not care for worldbuilding, immersion and properly introducing enemies and prefer a game of Whack-the-level-appropriate-monster-of-the-week, but not everyone has the same preferences.

[blackwindbears]

I never said that . If Players are properly informed and hundred percent onboard and even enjoy the idea that a random monster can swoop down and destroy a party at any given time or even offered the opportunity then I say go for it . We all here to have fun .

That was not the case of lvl 10 pirate vs lvl 1 player . The player thought he had a chance and had every right to be upset when he found out the power difference . He probably would have not done it if he knew beforehand .

It is okay if players make mistakes or get upset.

Your job as DM is not to maximize momentary fun. It is to make an engaging satisfying game.

The DMG suggests that a few encounters in each adventure be nearly unbeatable for the party. This player was low level, bit off more than they could chew and *learned* something about the game world.

That's great, A+.

What did the player lose?

Their character? No.

Magic items? No.

Progression? No.

What they lost was their conception that their starting character could beat up a captain of a ship. That's a good notion to disabuse them of!


If that was all that happened, I'd say fine. But it's not. Sounds like the player threw a tantrum about it. In my view this was the cheapest way to learn that one of OPs players isn't equipped to play D&D.
You have to have sportsmanship. You have to be able to take the wins and the losses. Especially the losses that turn out to be purely educational.

[Crake]

Nobody likes XP nerf Dm,s .

Killing level 1 goblins at level 10 doesn't get you xp, that's not a nerf, that's just how the game works?

[Luccan]

I would say you may have made a bad call for that particular player, but really that can be solved by just explaining that sometimes the bad guys will be initially too strong for them to just expect to win and they will either have to be clever or come back stronger. Ideally, if this is a new player, you do that before the game starts, but there's never a better time than the present. Honestly the only advice I would give otherwise is to not drop their jerk ex-boss right in front of them in session 1. Given a few sessions even the player in question might have taken a different approach, but right after he stabbed them in the back I can't say it's surprising a player wanted to fight him, even if it's kind of obviously a bad idea. It might do to explain further that even the one victory could have ultimately had a negative outcome. Pirate Captain leaves you for dead? That's just business. You come back and fight him? That's a potential enemy. You humiliate him in front of his crew? That's a foe that will turn his whole operation towards hunting you and stringing you from the bow of his ship as a warning to others.

The goal here should ultimately be that you explain, in a friendly manner, that your game world is not the sort of place where you can just run in guns blazing with no consideration for the potential consequences. At least, not for very long

[Zanos]

You baiting them into doing it . Why ? My players have a hub town and a dungeon with the slightest description of the surrounding areas . I wont drop em a treasure map that sends them to the tomb of horrors .
Dangerous threats just existing somewhere isn't bait. Lets say you start a campaign, and one of the nation states in the campaign is a necrocracy ruled by a powerful lich who established the nation through a bloody campaign of slaughter with an army of zombified giants and death knights. At level 2, the players decide that they want to dethrone the lich. Sure. You explain to them that there's some mines they can raid where skeletons mine iron to make weapons, and they say no, they want to go FIGHT THE LICH NOW. So they march into his throne room. Are you going to downscale the lich emperor that has murdered tens of thousands of people in a bloody campaign of conquest to level 2 so that the heroes can have a fighting chance against him? As a DM. I am not going to do that. The party is going to die, because they made the impossibly stupid choice to **** on the welcome mat of someone vastly more powerful than them. My world makes sense, and powerful people with lots of accomplishments under their belt might be too difficult for the PCs to handle. If they insist on picking fights with those people before they are ready, they will experience the logical consequences of doing so.

And in the OP, nothing bad even happen. The PC just got his ass kicked and learned a lesson about picking fights with people that have more experience than he does.

[JNAProductions]

I never said that . If Players are properly informed and hundred percent onboard and even enjoy the idea that a random monster can swoop down and destroy a party at any given time or even offered the opportunity then I say go for it . We all here to have fun .

That was not the case of lvl 10 pirate vs lvl 1 player . The player thought he had a chance and had every right to be upset when he found out the power difference . He probably would have not done it if he knew beforehand .

Why did the player think he had a chance?

Even if they thought so initially...


And during the fight, before each of the veteran pirate's turns I did ask if he wanted to keep going. I gave him an out every turn. He got knocked unconscious and then they threw him out of the bar.

The player had an out every turn.
You can argue that Railak didn't properly telegraph the difficulty, though since none of us were there, we can't really say for sure. But once the fight was started and the difficulty apparent, the player STILL had an off-ramp. Him not taking it is not on Railak.

I would consider a DM who weakens potential threats to always be beatable by the players to be DMing poorly, unless the players specifically want that. Most players don't.
I can agree that, should there be something the DM steers you towards, that should be appropriate for the PCs' level. But encountering someone stronger than you who's not hostile, and you decide to make hostilities occur? That's on you.

[Pugwampy]

Killing level 1 goblins at level 10 doesn't get you xp, that's not a nerf, that's just how the game works?

I would give em lvl 1 goblin xp which is not worth much to a lvl 10 guy . You have a book name and a page number that quotes players get zero xp ?



You might not care for worldbuilding,

Most players especially the new ones dont explore or ask wierd questions . If they do I will adapt even if its on the spot and thats how my world grows .

We all have worlds in our heads i imagine . But its usually only us that enjoy it fully .



What did the player lose?

Their character? No.

Magic items? No.

Progression? No.

Wasted time ? Yes

[Crake]

I would give em lvl 1 goblin xp which is not worth much to a lvl 10 guy . You have a book name and a page number that quotes players get zero xp ?

page 38 of the DMG, table 2-6, experience awards. Starting from level 9 onwards, CR 1 encounters award 0 xp.

Page 39, under Ad-Hoc xp awards also states:


Sometimes the XP table doesn’t quitecover a given situation. If two orcs are an EL 1 encounter, four orcs EL 3, eight orcs EL 5, and sixteen orcs EL 7 (maybe), are thirty-two orcs an EL 9 encounter? A party of 9th level characters almost certainly can wipe them out with ease. By 9th level, a character’s defenses are so good that a standard orc cannot hit him or her, and one or two spells cast by a character of that level could destroy all thirty-two orcs. At such a point, your judgment overrules whatever the XP table wouldsay.
An encounter so easy that it uses up none or almost none of the PCs’ resources shouldn’t result in any XP award at all.

That is for 3.5 though, pathfinder just awards flat xp, which I guess the party would still get if you are playing that.

[pabelfly]

Wasted time ? Yes

I wouldn't call it wasted time.

The party and the players have a gentle reminder that not every encounter is beatable, according to how the DM wants to run their game and world. They also know they need to pay more attention to narrative clues and DM hints to decide how best to do with NPC characters.

The captain has been directly set up as a capable combatant (instead of "he's strong", it's "he's strong enough to easily beat your character while holding back his hits"). This helps their characterization and story-telling, and can be used to signal the power of other characters or villians.

That character may now have a goal to shoot towards, that of growing in capability and besting that captain in combat.

I think saying the player's time has been wasted simply because they didn't win combat is short-sighted and one-dimensional.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

If you spin it right, the campaign now has a long term antagonist.

That's what you can really do now, keep the captain around, "taunting" the player with his continued existence and power, while their level creeps ever closer. When they're getting kind of close put the party in a situation like a gladiator prison or a cave with a collapsed entrance where it's only them and the captain, and where they have a choice between taking him on, probably winning by the skin of their teeth without any real consequences, or working together with him to escape and coming out stronger for it, but with their rival alive.

You made a choice for how your world works and feels. You might do it differently next time, you might do it the same, but for now you can use what you've done.

[Pugwampy]

page 38 of the DMG, table 2-6, experience awards. Starting from level 9 onwards, CR 1 encounters award 0 xp.

Thank you . I appreciate the citation .

[Railak]

(Idk if I'm going to get flagged for responding after so long or not)

So I read through basically all the posts, I actually hadn't been back to check these responses (I kinda forgot about it) until now. From some of the responses I realized there were things I didn't go into as much as I should have.

So the player has been playing D&D as long as I have, about 20ish years, I've known him for longer than that, this was also pretty out of character for him.
I did ask him if he's sure he wants to fight the CAPTAIN of the previous ship.
I had planned for them to have a confrontation, but was not planning on them attempting to fight him.
The player is completely aware that there are NPCs that are just supposed to be that much stronger, or more.. actually the funny part in the campaigns HE runs, every single barkeep is a level 20 or higher.

There actually used to be, removed quite a ways back, a random encounter possibility where it was party level+1d20, and it was always a fight encounter, no other possibility (as it was written on there), though they were always given the opportunity to avoid the encounter, by hiding or running. But there was no diplomatic path through the encounter, it was fight, hide, or run. Funny thing is the party loved it, they actually WANTED it to happen. There have been a couple times where they've actually wanted to take it on, but died terribly. But we'd continue the campaign like the encounter didn't actually happen.

The world's I run for my D&D campaigns, the average NPC is somewhere from level 1-5 depending on age, occupation, ect. It's not uncommon for even a village to have someone somewhere on the 5-10 range. Finding a 10-13 in a big city is not too difficult, usually someone from the 13-16 range in my world are going to be leaders of large organizations, or countries/kingdoms, and anything above that are generally world renowned heroes or villains.

The player also knew all this information above, as he's played in many of my campaigns.

Oh yeah, and the campaign is still going, we've had no other hiccups, and everyone is enjoying it.

Oh yeah, they got back at the captain by exploding his ship. Lots of successful planning, stealth, and bluff. It did help that they used to be part of the crew, so a lot easier to bluff that they were supposed to be there. They'd actually convinced an NPC that they were putting on a "fireworks show" and that NPC actually put the word out, gathering a huge crowd.
Afterwards, since there wasn't any direct evidence to them, they were actually able to convince the captain that it was someone else who'd blown up his ship. Another NPC the party had met who was also abandoned by the captain, who was seeking revenge.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Nice. All's well that ends with a bang.