Dawn + Forcecage combo

[follacchioso]

Hi, I've found a nice combo for my Evocation Wizard, but I don't see it mentioned very often online, so I wonder if there is something I'm missing and it is invalid.

The first part of the combo is the Dawn spell. This is, by the way, an amazing spell for an evoker. You can cast it at the beginning of the fight and include all your party friends, making them immune to the damage thanks to Sculpt Spells, and keep it up for the whole duration, damaging any enemy fool enough to end their turn in the area. This works very well when your party is able to grapple people in place - and if the combat moves away, you can just use a BA to move the area, which, by the way, is quite large. I find this spell on par with the Summons from Tasha, and often even better, as it can affect multiple enemies every turn.

The second part of the combo is Forcecage, to block somebody inside the area of Dawn. I've read about other combos with Forcecage, such as the one with Cloudkill, but I am not really convinced - why would an enemy stay in the Cloudkill area for another turn, waiting for me to Forcecage them?
The good part of the Dawn/Forcecage combo is that you can move the Dawn area with a BA, centering on wherever the enemy may be, then Forcecage them in place. Then, there would be no escape, unless they have magical means and pass the save.

One question I have is how cover interacts with all of this. Does the 10'x10' Box version of the spell provide cover against the Dawn area as well, shielding the creature inside from damage? What if I move the Dawn area so its centre is inside the box? The 20'x20' version of the spell is another option, of course, but it is not as effective, as the enemy can still attack and cast spells from inside it.

[Kwinza]

It's not really talked about because its an ancient combo that we all know by now. It's just a variance of the "microwave combo" which is sickening radiance + forcecage.

[LudicSavant]

Hi, I've found a nice combo for my Evocation Wizard, but I don't see it mentioned very often online, so I wonder if there is something I'm missing and it is invalid.

The first part of the combo is the Dawn spell. This is, by the way, an amazing spell for an evoker. You can cast it at the beginning of the fight and include all your party friends, making them immune to the damage thanks to Sculpt Spells, and keep it up for the whole duration, damaging any enemy fool enough to end their turn in the area. This works very well when your party is able to grapple people in place - and if the combat moves away, you can just use a BA to move the area, which, by the way, is quite large. I find this spell on par with the Summons from Tasha, and often even better, as it can affect multiple enemies every turn.

The second part of the combo is Forcecage, to block somebody inside the area of Dawn. I've read about other combos with Forcecage, such as the one with Cloudkill, but I am not really convinced - why would an enemy stay in the Cloudkill area for another turn, waiting for me to Forcecage them?
The good part of the Dawn/Forcecage combo is that you can move the Dawn area with a BA, centering on wherever the enemy may be, then Forcecage them in place. Then, there would be no escape, unless they have magical means and pass the save.

One question I have is how cover interacts with all of this. Does the 10'x10' Box version of the spell provide cover against the Dawn area as well, shielding the creature inside from damage? What if I move the Dawn area so its centre is inside the box? The 20'x20' version of the spell is another option, of course, but it is not as effective, as the enemy can still attack and cast spells from inside it.

This is often referred to as a microwave combo.

If you combine it further with a vision blocker like Pyrotechnics, sight-based teleportation (which is to say, most teleportation that isn't Dimension Door) won't be able to escape it, either.

[follacchioso]

Cool, thanks for confirming.

There is a rule in the PHB regarding needing a "Clear Path" to the target - how does this interact with the Forcecage, in this case? I'm interested in the 10'x10' box version of the spell, specifically.

I think it would not be possible to cast a Forcecage on Turn 1, and then Sickening Radiance inside it on Turn 2, because the walls of the spell would provide total cover to it. However, would the same apply to moving the Dawn area inside it, or would the box provide cover to it, as well? What if you cast Dawn on Turn 1, and then move it on the enemy as a BA, and Forcecage it as an Action?

[stoutstien]

Cool, thanks for confirming.

There is a rule in the PHB regarding needing a "Clear Path" to the target - how does this interact with the Forcecage, in this case? I'm interested in the 10'x10' box version of the spell, specifically.

I think it would not be possible to cast a Forcecage on Turn 1, and then Sickening Radiance inside it on Turn 2, because the walls of the spell would provide total cover to it. However, would the same apply to moving the Dawn area inside it, or would the box provide cover to it, as well? What if you cast Dawn on Turn 1, and then move it on the enemy as a BA, and Forcecage it as an Action?
If you use the solid option for force cage then who ever is inside has full cover and you no longer have a path of effect to target the interior of that area.

It's overly effective as is n I need to try to get blood from a stone.

[sithlordnergal]

So, reason Dawn isn't brought up with this type of combo is three-fold:

1) The microwave combo is a tried and true combo that most people on the forum have already talked about at length. There isn't a lot of reason to bring it up unless a spell brings something new or unique to the table.

2) The microwave combo is actually antithetical to Dawn's biggest strengths. Dawn's strength lies in the massive Radius, the ability to move it 60ft as a Bonus Action, and the fact that its Sunlight. The Microwave Combo removes one to two of these benefits. Dawn has to remain within the Forcecage, meaning it can't be moved, and there's an argument to be made that Forcecage blocks spell effects from passing through it.

3) For the Microwave Combo to really shine you either need big damage, or have some special, debilitating effect with the AoE spell. Unless you're fighting Vampires, Dawn doesn't have either of those. On the damage side, a 5th level Moonbeam deals 5d10 damage compared to Dawn's 4d10. And if you want debilitating effects, nothing beats Exhaustion.

[stoutstien]

So, reason Dawn isn't brought up with this type of combo is three-fold:

1) The microwave combo is a tried and true combo that most people on the forum have already talked about at length. There isn't a lot of reason to bring it up unless a spell brings something new or unique to the table.

2) The microwave combo is actually antithetical to Dawn's biggest strengths. Dawn's strength lies in the massive Radius, the ability to move it 60ft as a Bonus Action, and the fact that its Sunlight. The Microwave Combo removes one to two of these benefits. Dawn has to remain within the Forcecage, meaning it can't be moved, and there's an argument to be made that Forcecage blocks spell effects from passing through it.

3) For the Microwave Combo to really shine you either need big damage, or have some special, debilitating effect with the AoE spell. Unless you're fighting Vampires, Dawn doesn't have either of those. On the damage side, a 5th level Moonbeam deals 5d10 damage compared to Dawn's 4d10. And if you want debilitating effects, nothing beats Exhaustion.

Or just use an upcasted cloud of daggers and avoid saves all together.

[sithlordnergal]

That too. A 5th level Cloud of Daggers has the same damage range of Dawn, with a slightly better average, and no save. That said, Cloud of Daggers only works in a single 5ft Cube, making it pretty easy for a Medium or Smaller creature to avoid in a Forcecage.

Moonbeam has a 10ft diameter, and can be moved with your action, so the target can't escape.

That said, Cloud of Daggers is the superior option when fighting Large or Huge Creatures.