the most powerfull humanoid

[Clause]

good morning, people.
so, i have reading about draconic invocations and i see the humanoid shape. i wanto to know the most powerfull humanoid to use this power, and what motivates your choose

[Rebel7284]

It used to be OA nagas, but I think those were errata-ed to monstrous humanoids.

[Metastachydium]

Well, it depends on what you want, really. Sparrow Hengeyokai (flight from level one, the ability to just go Fine-sized) is a great personal favourite of mine (okay, the fact that they are BIRDIES helps a lot), and even if you use Alter Self-equivalents and the like, the fly speed in itself makes 'em worth it. If you get the natural armour with Humanoid Shape (I'm not sure you do), Phaerlock is a solid option. It's basically like the Troglodyte just better.

[Biggus]

It used to be OA nagas, but I think those were errata-ed to monstrous humanoids.

Not errata'd but the 3.5 update changed it. The update appeared in Dragon magazine but as it was written by the same person who wrote OA I think it's generally accepted as an official update.

In 3.0 there was also the Asabi Stingtail in MoF but that got updated to MH as well.

In 3.5, I think the strongest base (untemplated) humanoid in terms of CR is the Dark One Dark Stalker in the FF.

There's a list here (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101181246/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablesort=4) (click on the type button at the top to order the list by type) but be aware that it includes some unaltered 3.0 material, such as the aforementioned nagas.

[Anthrowhale]

It looks like this functions as Change Shape?

Change Shape apparently keeps almost all of the original creature definition except:

The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks
The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.

So, not even natural armor changes.

W.r.t. natural weapons, the Phaerlock mentioned has a claw/claw/bite.

W.r.t. flight, you could go with the Avariel or plausibly a Raptoran if you have enough HD.

The Dark Stalker gets poison use, which isn't bad but can become expensive.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The strongest humanoid is, without any semblance of a doubt, the mutant gargoyle from the 3e Tomb of Horrors (http://dnd.etherealspheres.com/eBooks/DM_Tools/Adventures_1/3E%20D&D%20-%20Adventure%2009%20-%20Tomb%20of%20Horrors.pdf) (page 11). 21 HD, 30 Str, 6 natural weapons... But since it makes literally no sense that it is a Humanoid (especially when no gargoyle in 3.X was ever a Humanoid), and there's a good chance a DM will ban it, better look at the Bugbear, or the Dark Stalker from Fiend Folio.

[Clause]

The strongest humanoid is, without any semblance of a doubt, the mutant gargoyle from the 3e Tomb of Horrors (http://dnd.etherealspheres.com/eBooks/DM_Tools/Adventures_1/3E%20D&D%20-%20Adventure%2009%20-%20Tomb%20of%20Horrors.pdf) (page 11). 21 HD, 30 Str, 6 natural weapons... But since it makes literally no sense that it is a Humanoid (especially when no gargoyle in 3.X was ever a Humanoid), and there's a good chance a DM will ban it, better look at the Bugbear, or the Dark Stalker from Fiend Folio.


OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH my GOD!!!
this is the one i have dreamed!!
the perfect thing and my DM is mutch RAW adept. so, i feel that he will acept, but cry. LOL



i want to play this thing exactly NOW.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dvati are humanoids from Dragon Compendium that have two bodies that basically double your action economy (except actions required to cast spells), which ranks right up there at the top for "things most likely to break encounters over your knee." You also gain double the effects of any number of things, such as buff spells. You do typically need double the equipment, though, which skews you toward certain classes.

So with the proper build, dvati are crazy-good.

[Clause]

Dvati are humanoids from Dragon Compendium that have two bodies that basically double your action economy (except actions required to cast spells), which ranks right up there at the top for "things most likely to break encounters over your knee." You also gain double the effects of any number of things, such as buff spells. You do typically need double the equipment, though, which skews you toward certain classes.

So with the proper build, dvati are crazy-good.

this is a GREAT one. wish my DM uses dragon...

[loky1109]

Lesser (PGtF) Mur-Zhagul (Unapproachable East).

[Metastachydium]

this is a GREAT one. wish my DM uses dragon...

It's Dragon Compendium, not the Magazine format. Published first party sourcebook and all that.

[Gruftzwerg]

The strongest humanoid is, without any semblance of a doubt, the mutant gargoyle from the 3e Tomb of Horrors (http://dnd.etherealspheres.com/eBooks/DM_Tools/Adventures_1/3E%20D&D%20-%20Adventure%2009%20-%20Tomb%20of%20Horrors.pdf) (page 11). 21 HD, 30 Str, 6 natural weapons... But since it makes literally no sense that it is a Humanoid (especially when no gargoyle in 3.X was ever a Humanoid), and there's a good chance a DM will ban it, better look at the Bugbear, or the Dark Stalker from Fiend Folio.

Remind you..


The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.

But it is still a large human and that alone is still impressive.



at OP: Unless you where aiming for the large size for combat reasons, imho you are better advised to find a fitting base creature/build for that. Waverider gives you a water based mount which specifically allows SLA to be shared.
I recently have made an optimized dragonfire ubermount build to build He-man outta a whale-companion..^^

[Rebel7284]

Remind you..

Quote Originally Posted by Change Shape
The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.



But it is still a large human and that alone is still impressive.



Dragons of Eberron, p. 15 Has this (persistable) gem.



Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer 1,
Components: V,
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell can be cast only by a creature that has been altered due to the use of polymorph, alternate form, or a similar effect. Compare the natural armor, damage reduction, and physical ability scores of the caster's current and original forms; for the duration of the spell, the caster uses the highest value in each category. This spell has no visible effect.

If the caster has the Silent Spell feat, he can apply it to this spell without increasing the casting time.

[Gruftzwerg]

Dragons of Eberron, p. 15 Has this (persistable) gem.

Read the description again more carefully pls.

It allows to switch between "physical ability scores of the caster's current and original forms"

Since Humanoid Shape doesn't alter your stats you are struck with the stats of your original form. You need a transformation magic that changes stats in the first place, like Alternate Form, Polymorph, Wild Shape and Shapechange. For spells and effects that don't alter your stats (Alter Self; Humanoid Shape..) Strength of the True Form doesn't do anything.

[Chronos]

Ordinarily, Humanoid Shape doesn't let you assume the new form's physical scores. But that's not a requirement for Strength of the True Form. All it requires is that you have a "current form" and an "original form", and it lets you choose the stats of either.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The duration is only 1 round. Not worth bothering with if you don't Persist it, even if you're using polymorph or some other effect that alters your stats (ie, not alter self or change shape or similar effects).

[YellowJohn]

Ordinarily, Humanoid Shape doesn't let you assume the new form's physical scores. But that's not a requirement for Strength of the True Form. All it requires is that you have a "current form" and an "original form", and it lets you choose the stats of either.

But the shapeshifting ability being discussed doesn't change your stats, so if your original form has Str 10 and you turn into an Orc, you get a Str 10 Orc. Now Strength of the True Form gives you a choice of the strength of your original form (10) or your current form (also 10). Choose wisely.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What happens if you cast a Persisted strength of the true form while polymorphed into a cave troll, keep the troll's Str score, and then end the polymorph? Do you keep the Str of the cave troll form due to Persisting SotTF?

[Crake]

What happens if you cast a Persisted strength of the true form while polymorphed into a cave troll, keep the troll's Str score, and then end the polymorph? Do you keep the Str of the cave troll form due to Persisting SotTF?

No, because the cave troll is no longer your current form.

[Rebel7284]

But the shapeshifting ability being discussed doesn't change your stats, so if your original form has Str 10 and you turn into an Orc, you get a Str 10 Orc. Now Strength of the True Form gives you a choice of the strength of your original form (10) or your current form (also 10). Choose wisely.

I understand where you're coming from but consider the specific wording



The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.


So change shape clearly makes a distinction between the original form and the current form. The current form is clearly still there, but the ability scores are not used. Note that Change shape does not replace them with the ability scores of the original form, the current form's ability scores are simply not used/ignored.



Compare the natural armor, damage reduction, and physical ability scores of the caster's current and original forms;


Both current and original form has those attributes, and while the rules of the particular transformation effect govern which ones are used and which ones are ignored, both values are known.

Also, Strength of the True Form explicitly mentions how Rakshasas often use the spell and they definitely have Change Shape (and can't cast Polymorph unless they are advanced) so there is your RAI (presumably they wouldn't use it if it did nothing).


So with these bits of RAW and RAI evidence, I believe that the spell works for Change Shape, but of course doesn't hurt to confirm with your DM. :smallsmile:

As for how useful it is, clearly with Persistent Spell in play, it's amazing and being a level 1 spell, can even be Persisted without any Shenanigans once you have 7th level spells. (of course shenanigans are fun. :smallbiggrin:)
However, D&D combat is short enough that I suspect it could be very useful even without being persisted. Depending on what forms are allowed. Setting your base Strength to 30 when you have 6 Natural Weapons is a significant buff and might end combat in a single full attack (certainly far more efficient than using that spell slot on a blasting spell!) Also consider the defensive utility of being able to greatly increase your armor class or get DR as an immediate action.
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell is also fairly cheap and extends this benefit to two Rounds.
I think the best way to use this spell, however, could be to stick it in a Wand Chamber of a weapon and use it whenever you need it, whether it ends up being one round or 5. Assuming the rules compendium rules are used here that a wand takes whatever action the spell does.

[Gruftzwerg]

I understand where you're coming from but consider the specific wording



So change shape clearly makes a distinction between the original form and the current form. The current form is clearly still there, but the ability scores are not used. Note that Change shape does not replace them with the ability scores of the original form, the current form's ability scores are simply not used/ignored.



Both current and original form has those attributes, and while the rules of the particular transformation effect govern which ones are used and which ones are ignored, both values are known.

Also, Strength of the True Form explicitly mentions how Rakshasas often use the spell and they definitely have Change Shape (and can't cast Polymorph unless they are advanced) so there is your RAI (presumably they wouldn't use it if it did nothing).


....

1. You never have the stats of the Target Form.
Target Form != Current Form != Original Form
Strength of the True Form only allows to switch ability scores between Current and Original Form, not Target Form.

2. The fluff text at the bottom...
... is still referring to Rakshasas "Sorcerers". It's still a Sorcerer 1 spell. A Rakshasas with Sorcerer levels can (later) get Polymorph/Shapechange or whatsoever to use SotTF.

sorcerers of any race can master it; in particular, the rakshasas
"In particular" is referring to "Sorcerers". The sentence talks obviously about R. Sorcerers here.

[Crake]

I understand where you're coming from but consider the specific wording



So change shape clearly makes a distinction between the original form and the current form. The current form is clearly still there, but the ability scores are not used. Note that Change shape does not replace them with the ability scores of the original form, the current form's ability scores are simply not used/ignored.

Thats certainly one way to read it, but its not the exclusive way of reading it.

Others may read “your current form” as being the stats and features you currently have, as opposed to “your original form” being the stats you have without any polymorph magic. Personally I think this is a much more sensible reading, as it more properly characterises what YOUR form currently is.

This also, I feel, is somewhat important for when abilities get altered outside of the norm.

What if, for example, you have 20 strength normally, but you use change shape to transform into a human, since you’re using change shape your strength remains 20, but then you have warshaper giving you +4 strength while in a form other than your own, so currently you have 24 strength. However, by your logic, your “current” form only has 10 strength, and your original form has 20 strength, so strength of the true form would actually reduce your strength to 20.

By my logic however, my “current” form has 24 strength, so i would continue to use that instead.

[NontheistCleric]

Thats certainly one way to read it, but its not the exclusive way of reading it.

Others may read “your current form” as being the stats and features you currently have, as opposed to “your original form” being the stats you have without any polymorph magic. Personally I think this is a much more sensible reading, as it more properly characterises what YOUR form currently is.

This also, I feel, is somewhat important for when abilities get altered outside of the norm.

What if, for example, you have 20 strength normally, but you use change shape to transform into a human, since you’re using change shape your strength remains 20, but then you have warshaper giving you +4 strength while in a form other than your own, so currently you have 24 strength. However, by your logic, your “current” form only has 10 strength, and your original form has 20 strength, so strength of the true form would actually reduce your strength to 20.

By my logic however, my “current” form has 24 strength, so i would continue to use that instead.

Actually, Strength of the True Form lets you have the higher of either forms' scores.

[Rebel7284]

1. You never have the stats of the Target Form.
Target Form != Current Form != Original Form
Strength of the True Form only allows to switch ability scores between Current and Original Form, not Target Form.


Target form is not a term I have seen used, so I am unsure what point you're trying to make exactly.

Let's compare some text.



The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form.




The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.


So we have current (or new) form and original form. The game clearly tells you which stat block to reference in each case. If you take a form of X, the game knows the stats that X has even if the rules then immediately tell you to not use those stats or to modify them in some way.



2. The fluff text at the bottom...
... is still referring to Rakshasas "Sorcerers". It's still a Sorcerer 1 spell. A Rakshasas with Sorcerer levels can (later) get Polymorph/Shapechange or whatsoever to use SotTF.

"In particular" is referring to "Sorcerers". The sentence talks obviously about R. Sorcerers here.

Sure, but why Rakshasa in particular? Why not any of the dozens of other races that are known for being good sorcerers? Nothing to do with Change Shape you say? Maybe it's a coincidence, sure, but it makes me wonder.


Thats certainly one way to read it, but its not the exclusive way of reading it.

Others may read “your current form” as being the stats and features you currently have, as opposed to “your original form” being the stats you have without any polymorph magic. Personally I think this is a much more sensible reading, as it more properly characterises what YOUR form currently is.

This also, I feel, is somewhat important for when abilities get altered outside of the norm.

What if, for example, you have 20 strength normally, but you use change shape to transform into a human, since you’re using change shape your strength remains 20, but then you have warshaper giving you +4 strength while in a form other than your own, so currently you have 24 strength. However, by your logic, your “current” form only has 10 strength, and your original form has 20 strength, so strength of the true form would actually reduce your strength to 20.

By my logic however, my “current” form has 24 strength, so i would continue to use that instead.

I am unclear about how you end up at that 20 Strength conclusion. Strength of the True form tells you to use whichever is higher of the ability scores (current form or original form) and then Bonuses and Penalties apply on top of that as usual. Should be 24 Strength regardless.

[Crake]

I am unclear about how you end up at that 20 Strength conclusion. Strength of the True form tells you to use whichever is higher of the ability scores (current form or original form) and then Bonuses and Penalties apply on top of that as usual. Should be 24 Strength regardless.

Fine, then go with a werewolf who has 18 base strength and transforms into a wolf, gaining +2 strength for a total of 20 strength. The wolf's form has 13 strength, his base form has 18 strength, so he drops from 20 strength to 18 strength.

That aside, point is that, by the alternate (read: correct) reading, your current form means the form you are currently in. Your current form is not that of a "human" or a "wolf" it is "you, change shaped into a human" or "you, change shaped into a wolf". That form has particular ability scores, and those are the ones that are referred to in the spell.

Your reading means that "current form" is "the creature you are physically attempting to replicate", which runs into all sorts of muckery when, for example, you get into things like changelings using minor change shape, or other largely cosmetic shapechanging abilities, like change shape in general.

[Paragon]

Don't mind me I'm just here to add another idea to the actual post.
The Hornhead from the Saurial web enhancement is a Large humanoid

[Gruftzwerg]

Target form is not a term I have seen used, so I am unsure what point you're trying to make exactly.
Neither of these are defined. All 3 are just catchy phrases to describe mechanics.

But what you are trying to do it to define words that aren't defined by RAW.
You have no permission to define "current form" for all the 3.5 content.

As it is undefined, you have to use its (own separate) context (each time) to interpret it right.
You can't take the context of one ability and use that as definition to trump the context of another ability.

SotTF refers to your "current stats" (of your current form) when it says "current form" and not the general stats of the monster you have transformed into. It doesn't say "the stats of the creature you have currently transformed into". It says "your current form" which in this context obviously refers to your current stats in transformed form.



Sure, but why Rakshasa in particular? Why not any of the dozens of other races that are known for being good sorcerers? Nothing to do with Change Shape you say? Maybe it's a coincidence, sure, but it makes me wonder.

Because WotC decided for some fluff reason that Rakshasa Sorcerer do favor the spell just more often. Maybe the spell originated from em, how knows. It's just a fluff statement about which population does use the spell the most, nothing more. Nowhere does it tell you that they use it with their ability, nor that there is a specific exception for their ability.
Your conclusions aren't represented by the rules written (RAW).

[Rebel7284]

Fine, then go with a werewolf who has 18 base strength and transforms into a wolf, gaining +2 strength for a total of 20 strength. The wolf's form has 13 strength, his base form has 18 strength, so he drops from 20 strength to 18 strength.

That aside, point is that, by the alternate (read: correct) reading, your current form means the form you are currently in. Your current form is not that of a "human" or a "wolf" it is "you, change shaped into a human" or "you, change shaped into a wolf". That form has particular ability scores, and those are the ones that are referred to in the spell.

Your reading means that "current form" is "the creature you are physically attempting to replicate", which runs into all sorts of muckery when, for example, you get into things like changelings using minor change shape, or other largely cosmetic shapechanging abilities, like change shape in general.



Abilities

All lycanthropes gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in animal form, a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the animal’s normal ability scores -10 or -11. A lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.


This ability that boosts your scores is still there. I am authentically unclear how this is any different from the Warshaper example. You get a bonus/change to your abilities when you're in a particular shape, so that still applies regardless if your strength score is taken from the base/original form or the current/new form. Someone casting Bull's Strength before or after the form change also applies either way until the spell ends.

To be clear, I understand that there are multiple ways of reading those rules and a DM could rule that once the stats are set (by referring to original form or current/new form or whatever) then any future references to the stats of the current form are replaced by the new values. I simply don't think this is the best reading.

Also, consider this:
- You Change Shape into a wolf
- You then decide to Polymorph into a wolf

clearly the Polymorph spell can figure out the Strength score of a Wolf even if you are currently using a different value for it. Why would Shape of the True form be unable to do this too? Especially when the wording is:



Compare the <snip> of the caster's current and original forms


It could be talking about your current stats, but it says to use your form's stats which sounds slightly different to me.




Because WotC decided for some fluff reason that Rakshasa Sorcerer do favor the spell just more often. Maybe the spell originated from em, how knows. It's just a fluff statement about which population does use the spell the most, nothing more. Nowhere does it tell you that they use it with their ability, nor that there is a specific exception for their ability.
Your conclusions aren't represented by the rules written (RAW).

I explicitly said that this part of my reasoning is RAI. Of course, I wouldn't put it past the writers to mis-remember and think that Rakshasa has Alternate form rather than Change Shape.

[Soranar]

since darkstalkers gets 3d6 sneak attack, they're by far the best humanoid shape form for combat and such

and, being humanoid, they can use armor and weapons as normal (you might need to take them off and re equip them after morphing, I forget the rules for that particular invocation)

as for sheer STR, a flind has 16 STR I believe

and a Varag has a 60 ft movement speed

and there are humanoids with a swim speed or a flight speed (like an avariel) so it's still a very versatile invocation

[Crake]

It could be talking about your current stats, but it says to use your form's stats which sounds slightly different to me.

Because you’re using transformation magic. You have different forms. What you are referring to is not a form, it is a creature who’s form you are incompletely mimicking.

[Metastachydium]

and there are humanoids with a swim speed or a flight speed (like an avariel)

…and even burrow (Badger Hengeyokai), if one's into that kind of thing.