Cleric vs. Wizard for necromancy

[shadowseve]

So, back in 3.5 where I’m from clerics made fantastic necromancers. I’m looking and it seems like this time around Wizard takes the cake on the undead horde. Soooo. Which one is better? I have a pc wanting to make a necro that focuses on the whole undead army. Which way should he go?

[JackPhoenix]

Wizard. Cleric doesn't really have any advantage over anyone else creating undead, no buffs (other than spells) or extra numbers, Death domain is more about killing than turning corpses into unholy abominations. That being said, Crusader's Mantle, available to War domain, makes for a fantastic buff that gets better the more minions you have around. Otherwise, necromancer wizard has stronger undead, can create them faster, and can even control some "wild" undead.

[RogueJK]

Yep. Definitely Necromancer.

Clerics get Animate Dead and Create Undead, but don't have the same ability to auto-buff their undead horde like Necromancers can, nor can they eventually control high level undead.

While Animate Dead lets you potentially raise a number of zombies/skeletons starting at Level 5, they're weak, and their usefulness in combat drops off past the first few levels of them being available.

So you really need the ability to buff them to extend their combat usefulness.

Plus Necromancers have access to additional undead summoning spells like Summon Undead and Danse Macabre, which aren't available to Clerics.

[shadowseve]

Cool deal. Necromancer Wizard it is

[shadowseve]

So, I watched Treantmonk’s guide to wizard subclasses, and read a few other guides. There seems to be differences in the opinion on how good necromancy is. Treantmonk doesn’t like it very well while, rpgbot has a guide that was stating it’s very good. I know treantmonk’s reputation so I’m inclined to go with him. This has kinda caused my necro to possibly go another route, but I wanted to get some opinions on advising them. What are your guys thoughts?

[LudicSavant]

So, back in 3.5 where I’m from clerics made fantastic necromancers. I’m looking and it seems like this time around Wizard takes the cake on the undead horde. Soooo. Which one is better? I have a pc wanting to make a necro that focuses on the whole undead army. Which way should he go?

Necromancer Wizard is good at its job.

Ironically, the best Cleric for animating the dead is probably Peace or Twilight (not Death or Grave or the like).

Twilight grants hefty regenerating temp HP for your minions, while Peace can use them as sacrificial puppets.

[RogueJK]

So, I watched Treantmonk’s guide to wizard subclasses, and read a few other guides. There seems to be differences in the opinion on how good necromancy is. Treantmonk doesn’t like it very well while, rpgbot has a guide that was stating it’s very good. I know treantmonk’s reputation so I’m inclined to go with him. This has kinda caused my necro to possibly go another route, but I wanted to get some opinions on advising them. What are your guys thoughts?

Well, as I noted earlier, standard undead like the zombies and skeletons from Animate Dead are pretty weak, except in large numbers and/or at the first few levels they become available. The Necromancer's ability to buff them a bit helps some, but isn't a total solution.

So on the spectrum of Necromancy/undead-focused summoners, a Necromancer is the best choice. But on the spectrum of all Summoners in 5E, Necromancers aren't as strong as some other options.


Therefore, if your player wants to play a powerful, optimized summoner with a bunch of summoned allies, they can do better than a Necromancer. Like a Shepherd Druid relying heavily on Conjure Animals. But if your player specifically want to play a summoner focused on undead, Necromancer is their best choice.


In addition, how old was that Treant video? WotC released some alternate/updated summoning spell options in one of the newer books, Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, which came out in late 2020. These include the Summon Undead spell. Rather than animating a number of weaker zombies/skeletons, it instead summons a single strong undead minion from three different options, which you can pick from as the situation dictates. In many scenarios, this one stronger ally is better than a mass of weak allies. (And importantly, it doesn't bog down play as you make multiple additional movement and attack decisions, and multiple additional attack and damage rolls.) Or since Animate Dead doesn't require Concentration, you can mix the two and have some weaker Animate Dead meatshields alongside your single stronger Summon Undead that you're Concentrating on.

Danse Macabre is another example of an undead-summoning spell that came out several years after Animate Dead, and the more powerful Danse Macabre minions are a better option than bog standard zombies/skeletons in some circumstances.

So if the video you saw predated one or both of those newer options, then his opinion might have changed recently.


Plus, Treatmonk has some... preconceived notions. And is biased towards a specific style of D&D play, in a white room setting. Don't take his word as gospel on all matters of 5E D&D in every group at every table.


Also understand that in 5E, the optimization floor and ceiling are closer together. In the 3E you're used to, the difference between a bad PC build, an average PC build, and a strong/optimized PC build was pretty vast. In 5E, the difference between an average PC build and an optimized PC build is much less extreme, and you have to deliberately try to make an outright bad build.

So while a Necromancer Wizard won't be the absolute most optimized character build in 5E, it's still going to be an effective character. Wizards in general are one of the stronger classes in 5E, especially once you get into higher level spellcasting. And any PC can still be fun to play, even if they're not the most powerful.

Personally, I say let your player play what they want to play, rather than trying to pressure them into someone else out of fear of them being underpowered/bad/etc., based just on the opinion of some videos you watched.

[LudicSavant]

So, I watched Treantmonk’s guide to wizard subclasses, and read a few other guides. There seems to be differences in the opinion on how good necromancy is. Treantmonk doesn’t like it very well while, rpgbot has a guide that was stating it’s very good. I know treantmonk’s reputation so I’m inclined to go with him. This has kinda caused my necro to possibly go another route, but I wanted to get some opinions on advising them. What are your guys thoughts?

Necromancer Wizards used correctly are extremely strong. I don't know what Treantmonk has to say about it currently, but his old Guide to Wizards misses out on a lot of how to use them well.

Grim Harvest often gets underrated because some people only think about how it works with Necromancy school spells, but it's actually better with damage-over-time AoE spells from other schools, especially ones that kill enemies off-turn or last for multiple combats. This can potentially rack up quite a lot of healing.

Undead Thralls is just plain strong, and not just with Animate Dead. For example, it also will boost stuff like Summon Undead and Danse Macabre (incidentally, Danse Macabre is much stronger than Animate Objects in a Necromancer Wizard's hands). You can use this ability to dish out massive damage.

Inured to Undeath has some strong combos because of the "HP can't be reduced" line (for example, free homunculi), and Necrotic is one of the most common damage types in the game (and one of the hardest to get Resistance to by other means).

Control Undead lets your DM introduce a new kind of loot.

[Fable Wright]

Of course Treantmonk is going to think it's bad.

Ultimately, Animate Dead is a means of converting spell slots into low-accuracy, high volume, nonmagical damage. It's really good at doing so in an action efficient way—a single third level slot, giving you four skeleton archers, will give you a substantial amount of damage for a bonus action each turn. That's unmatched value through the adventuring day.

The problem is that each of those skeleton archers deals non-magical damage (and thus are worthless against some enemies) and is a high investment to create and maintain (do you really want to spend two third level slots getting back your four skeletons after a stray fireball wipes them out?). Treantmonk generally valued undead in older editions as a low-investment means of triggering traps and so forth by spending slots in downtime days for no cost in the adventure itself, but when you're paying a third level slot in the adventuring to detect and trip traps, that's no longer a great value proposition.

However.

The skeleton horde can be really strong in the situations where low-accuracy, high volume, nonmagical damage is good. If you are in a dungeon where your skeleton troop can stay in the back and fire bows at the enemy, you are unmatched sustained DPR as a caster with just a third level slot, nevermind sustaining a horde of 8-12 undead from 2-3 third level slots. If you want utility, think of all the things you can do with hirelings, and now picture hirelings that don't talk back and don't need to breathe or sleep.

I am of the opinion that spending a fourth-level slot for four skeleton minions that deal sustained DPR throughout the adventuring day is a good value deal. It doesn't have the immediate fight-swinging potential of Polymorph, but it's decent utility and good damage for a bonus action throughout every fight without concentration. This gets better when it only costs a level 3 slot to maintain that 4th level effect.

The big thing is, simply, don't over-invest. If a single Fireball wipes out your spells for the week, those spells were a bad investment. If you have too many undead, they're not going to fit in the corridors of the dungeon, not going to all be able to fire their bows, they're going to die to AoEs too easily, and the GM is going to stop giving you encounters where they're useful because the sheer arrow volley will kill anything that doesn't have nonmagical immunity too quickly to be engaging.

Ultimately, I give them a rating of 'quite strong, but high diminishing returns and people tend to over-invest.'

[Sigreid]

At higher levels the ability to permanently bind a mummy lord is fantastic. Beyond that, even if you're in a holy land where undead instantly disintegrate, he's still a wizard.

[RogueJK]

Ultimately, Animate Dead is a means of converting spell slots into low-accuracy, high volume, nonmagical damage. It's really good at doing so in an action efficient way—a single third level slot, giving you four skeleton archers, will give you a substantial amount of damage for a bonus action each turn. That's unmatched value through the adventuring day.

The problem is that each of those skeleton archers deals non-magical damage (and thus are worthless against some enemies) and is a high investment to create and maintain (do you really want to spend two third level slots getting back your four skeletons after a stray fireball wipes them out?). Treantmonk generally valued undead in older editions as a low-investment means of triggering traps and so forth by spending slots in downtime days for no cost in the adventure itself, but when you're paying a third level slot in the adventuring to detect and trip traps, that's no longer a great value proposition.

However.

The skeleton horde can be really strong in the situations where low-accuracy, high volume, nonmagical damage is good. If you are in a dungeon where your skeleton troop can stay in the back and fire bows at the enemy, you are unmatched sustained DPR as a caster with just a third level slot, nevermind sustaining a horde of 8-12 undead from 2-3 third level slots. If you want utility, think of all the things you can do with hirelings, and now picture hirelings that don't talk back and don't need to breathe or sleep.

I am of the opinion that spending a fourth-level slot for four skeleton minions that deal sustained DPR throughout the adventuring day is a good value deal. It doesn't have the immediate fight-swinging potential of Polymorph, but it's decent utility and good damage for a bonus action throughout every fight without concentration. This gets better when it only costs a level 3 slot to maintain that 4th level effect.

The big thing is, simply, don't over-invest. If a single Fireball wipes out your spells for the week, those spells were a bad investment. If you have too many undead, they're not going to fit in the corridors of the dungeon, not going to all be able to fire their bows, they're going to die to AoEs too easily, and the GM is going to stop giving you encounters where they're useful because the sheer arrow volley will kill anything that doesn't have nonmagical immunity too quickly to be engaging.

Ultimately, I give them a rating of 'quite strong, but high diminishing returns and people tend to over-invest.'

Quite true.

I find that a Necromancer who plays more like a traditional Wizard (mainly utility/control/blasting spells), and who also will sometimes summon a single buffed minion via Summon Undead strengthened by the additional HP and damage from Undead Thralls, is a better option in actual 5E play than trying to use most of your spell slots on Animate Dead to fulfill the fantasy trope of the "creepy pale guy accompanied by a horde of shambling servants".

That horde of undead that sounds so cool just ends up being clunky/unwieldy, underpowered in many combat scenarios, and slow to play in actual 5E gameplay.

Plus, with a single Summon Undead minion who only appears for an hour at a time as needed, you don't have to worry about stuff like "What do I do with my horde of undead when we get to town?", or similar. Your PC can be more nondescript, since Necromancy is generally frowned upon just about everywhere in most standard fantasy settings.

And then if your Necromancer need a more basic "undead servant" for mundane things, you can accomplish that by temporarily summoning a "ghost" with the Unseen Servant ritual.

[LudicSavant]

Some random Necromancer tips:

- Animate Dead is best cast at the end of an adventuring day with any leftover resources, rather than at the start of it.
- Summon Undead combos with Undead Thralls and upcasts well to 4th, 6th, and 8th level slots.
- Danse Macabre is generally better than Animate Objects (because of Undead Thralls), and lasts a long time.
- Inured to Undeath lets you use certain spells without their usual opportunity costs. Also, Necrotic Resistance is not only one of the most common monster damage types, it's also one of the elemental resistances that Wizards don't add to themselves so easily. For example, at higher levels (e.g. when you have Inured to Undeath) you could easily be running around with stuff like Absorb Elements, Mind Blank, and Heroes Feast on, leaving few holes in your resistances.
- Grim Harvest can heal you once per turn, not per round or per spell. As such, spells that last a while and/or kill off-turn can trigger it many times. Think stuff like Evard's Black Tentacles, Storm Sphere, Wall of Fire, Sickening Radiance, Maddening Darkness, Fire Shield, or Crown of Stars. (And then there are cheesy options like Orzhov Representatives or Lorehold Students using it with Spirit Guardians).
- Use hazard combos. Use teamwork with allies that can push enemies around... or even use your undead as body blockers or even grapplers to put people in your hazard effects and keep them there (then heal off them with Grim Harvest when they die).
- Remember that creatures provide cover, and use your undead minions accordingly.

[Sigreid]

Quite true.

I find that a Necromancer who plays more like a traditional Wizard (mainly utility/control/blasting spells), and who also will sometimes summon a single buffed minion via Summon Undead strengthened by the additional HP and damage from Undead Thralls, is a better option in actual 5E play than trying to use most of your spell slots on Animate Dead to fulfill the fantasy trope of the "creepy pale guy accompanied by a horde of shambling servants".

That horde of undead that sounds so cool just ends up being clunky/unwieldy, underpowered in many combat scenarios, and slow to play in actual 5E gameplay.

Plus, with a single Summon Undead minion who only appears for an hour at a time as needed, you don't have to worry about stuff like "What do I do with my horde of undead when we get to town?", or similar. Your PC can be more nondescript, since Necromancy is generally frowned upon just about everywhere in most standard fantasy settings.

And then if your Necromancer need a more basic "undead servant" for mundane things, you can accomplish that by temporarily summoning a "ghost" with the Unseen Servant ritual.
Masses of long term undead is what the finger of death spell is for.

[shadowseve]

I will have to pass this along

[Psyren]

Treantmonk made a very strong Necromancer Wizard build actually, based on the Tashas Summon Undead spell: https://youtu.be/Pj9WjcsZkrA. You can use Animate Dead with that build just fine, but Summon Undead is generally more table-friendly since you're only controlling one strong minion instead of clogging up combat with an army.

[shadowseve]

Treantmonk made a very strong Necromancer Wizard build actually, based on the Tashas Summon Undead spell: https://youtu.be/Pj9WjcsZkrA. You can use Animate Dead with that build just fine, but Summon Undead is generally more table-friendly since you're only controlling on strong minion instead of clogging up combat with an army.

Thank you!

[Willowhelm]

Treantmonk made a very strong Necromancer Wizard build actually, based on the Tashas Summon Undead spell: https://youtu.be/Pj9WjcsZkrA. You can use Animate Dead with that build just fine, but Summon Undead is generally more table-friendly since you're only controlling one strong minion instead of clogging up combat with an army.

I was going to post this too. His original review of the necromancer subclass was 2019 I think. I think he also is more down on it for the table management aspects of having a horde, rather than the “power” of the subclass or whatever iirc. His new vid (linked) is his approach to avoid all that.

Something synergising with grim harvest (as Ludic has mentioned) is on my short list of want-to-play builds. Having spirit guardians trigger it on all the other creature’s turns… just seems so fun.

[Aaron Underhand]

Isn't there a warlock subcast that get a Wight....

[RogueJK]

Isn't there a warlock subcast that get a Wight....

Hexblade gets access to a Specter at Level 6.

[Witty Username]

Plus, Treatmonk has some... preconceived notions. And is biased towards a specific style of D&D play, in a white room setting. Don't take his word as gospel on all matters of 5E D&D in every group at every table.


That is a weird complaint, given that his necromancer criticisms tend towards how they work in a practical sense in comparison to white room play.

How to take a horde of zombies through a town without drawing attention is sorta the opposite of white room thinking.

But that is also Treantmonk's complaints are more logistical, which I personally don't agree with, but are things to think about when running any character with minions.

[Unoriginal]

So, I watched Treantmonk’s guide to wizard subclasses, and read a few other guides. There seems to be differences in the opinion on how good necromancy is. Treantmonk doesn’t like it very well while, rpgbot has a guide that was stating it’s very good. I know treantmonk’s reputation so I’m inclined to go with him. This has kinda caused my necro to possibly go another route, but I wanted to get some opinions on advising them. What are your guys thoughts?

Treantmonk's work for 5e is best avoided and ignored, when one is still learning 5e.

It is of dreadful quality, and anything that isn't plainly wrong has been handled better by other guide-makers.

Treantmonk might have been a big name for 3.X, but his skills and mindset did *not* transfer well for 5e.

I cannot emphsizes enough how many false ideas about 5e's rules and builds this man has propagated.

Once you know enough about 5e to run it or play it confidently, sure, take a look to make your own mind about it. But before that it'll just result in you needing to unlearn anything he wrote.

[Willowhelm]

Treantmonk made a very strong Necromancer Wizard build actually, based on the Tashas Summon Undead spell: https://youtu.be/Pj9WjcsZkrA. You can use Animate Dead with that build just fine, but Summon Undead is generally more table-friendly since you're only controlling one strong minion instead of clogging up combat with an army.

I just re watched this and it’s on theme… but I don’t see it actually benefiting from the subclass features particularly. Am I missing something or does this work with any other wizard subclass just as well? (Slightly fewer hp on the summon)

[Witty Username]

I just re watched this and it’s on theme… but I don’t see it actually benefiting from the subclass features particularly. Am I missing something or does this work with any other wizard subclass just as well? (Slightly fewer hp on the summon)

The big thing is the damage bonus on summons, which with Tasha's ones that have multiattack that adds up pretty quick.

Also, while Treantmonk advises against it due to slowing down play, there is no reason that you can't use animate dead along with it, which the undead thralls is intended to work with.

If you are planning on using undead, another thing is that none of the other subclasses offer anything.

I am actually playing that build in a game right now, and it has been working pretty well.

[Psyren]

I just re watched this and it’s on theme… but I don’t see it actually benefiting from the subclass features particularly. Am I missing something or does this work with any other wizard subclass just as well? (Slightly fewer hp on the summon)

The Undead Thralls feature works on Summon Undead; it's a necromancy spell.

[Smersh_23]

That level 14 class ability is powerful, if you can swing a +2 to your spell save DC, you can have a CR20 Nightwalker rent free at level 14. Or am I missing something? With a Spell save DC of 20, a nightwalker can not pass a save. Of course your going to have to find a way around its Annihilating Aura...

You can also get a CR16 Storm Giant Skeleton that has -5 to its save and has a 29 Str. All of that with out any resources other then your level 14 class ability and its indefinite since they have under 8 intelligence.

[shadowseve]

The big thing is the damage bonus on summons, which with Tasha's ones that have multiattack that adds up pretty quick.

Also, while Treantmonk advises against it due to slowing down play, there is no reason that you can't use animate dead along with it, which the undead thralls is intended to work with.

If you are planning on using undead, another thing is that none of the other subclasses offer anything.

I am actually playing that build in a game right now, and it has been working pretty well.

I’ve run necros in the past with armies of undead so I’m used to it. Once had the chicken infested flaw and used that to have a ton of chicken bombs infested with necrotic tumors. They blow up, infect the enemies… Fourth of July featuring flying body parts as fireworks. Fun times. I love creativity. No, if the dm plays smartly he can run it with a lot of minions. I devided them by type and used to run initiative for a group instead of individuals to keep things flowing.

Though I do believe in having a few really powerful undead to mop the floor with people.

[shadowseve]

That level 14 class ability is powerful, if you can swing a +2 to your spell save DC, you can have a CR20 Nightwalker rent free at level 14. Or am I missing something? With a Spell save DC of 20, a nightwalker can not pass a save. Of course your going to have to find a way around its Annihilating Aura...

You can also get a CR16 Storm Giant Skeleton that has -5 to its save and has a 29 Str. All of that with out any resources other then your level 14 class ability and its indefinite since they have under 8 intelligence.

The necro in our party wants undead Shadow dragon zombies. lol 😂. I’ll have to look around to see what I can do for her. I’ve not had a chance to dive deep but would a zombie dragon keep its breath weapon?

[Blatant Beast]

The major issue with Summon Undead is the spell needs to be upcast into a 4th level slot to really be worthwhile. The summons just are not that potent without access to two attacks.

I will say that Animate Dead on a Cleric has no opportunity cost, which can be nice around 5th level. The 5th level Necromancer Wizard has to make hard choices in regards to spell selection.

Clerics do not. Anytime a cleric can swap out spells, they can be a skeleton generator...which can be quite handy.

[RogueJK]

The Necromancer can scribe as many spells in their spellbook as they want/can find, and they get Animate Dead for free at 6, so the Necromancer Wizard can then swap it in/out as often as a Cleric. They're still both "spells prepared" casters. The Necromancer loses nothing by taking Summon Undead at Level 5, and then also getting Animate Dead for free the next level as another option.

Your argument would be much more valid with a "spells known" caster, with the cost of taking Animate Dead as one of their very limited spells being significantly higher for something like a Divine Soul Sorcerer, or especially a Lore Bard with Magical Secrets. (And we won't even mention the Warlock, with the Undying Servitude invocation being an absolute trap option as written!)


I also disagree with the assertion that a 3rd level Summon Undead casting is not worth it, since it doesn't have Multiattack.

Even besides the better combat sturdiness, Summon Undead presents some additional utility/exploration benefits as well. Cast Summon Undead, choose Ghostly, and now you have a minion for 1 hour who can fly and walk through walls and doors at will. Need to get through that barred door? The Ghost can unbar it from the other side for you. Trapped in a sealed chamber filling with water and the deactivation switch is on the outside? Ghost Bro has you covered. Need to sneak into a locked/guarded room to plant a letter? Sneaky Ghost can handle it. Need to steal something from that locked tower? Etc.

As for combat, it's important to remember that Summon Undead does magical damage, while Animate Dead does not. So your weak zombies/skeletons suck even more against enemies with nonmagical damage resistance/immunity.

The Summon Undead skeleton has a 150' ranged attack, compared to the Animate Dead skeleton with 80'.

Summon Undead has the option for a flying minion, while Animate Dead does not.

Summon Undead is likely to be able to withstand at least one level-appropriate AoE blast, while the squishy Animate Dead minion almost certainly won't.

Summon Undead can inflict useful debuffs like frightened, poisoned, or paralyzed, in addition to just damage.

Summon Undead is immune to Necrotic damage, one of the most common enemy damage types.

Summon Undead is immune to fear.

And even when limited to just one attack with a 3rd level slot, the Summon Undead's attack bonuses will likely be ~2x that of the Animate Dead minions, meaning that one attack is more likely to land. Plus that attack is going to be doing as much or more damage than 2x Animate Dead hits. So with some very (very) rough math, if it's 2x as likely to hit, and doing 2x as much damage, it's very roughly equivalent in damage to your 4x Animate Dead minions' single attacks, unless you're going up against a large number of low AC and low HP enemy mooks. (Like another Necromancer with a bunch of basic zombies and skeletons. :smallbiggrin:)


So Animate Dead has its place, for times when you need (and can accommodate) a larger volume of low accuracy/low damage nonmagical attacks, as discussed in the earlier post by Fable Wright. But in most situations, if you have to choose between one or the other, Summon Undead is the better overall option, even when cast with a 3rd level spell slot.

[JackPhoenix]

I will say that Animate Dead on a Cleric has no opportunity cost, which can be nice around 5th level. The 5th level Necromancer Wizard has to make hard choices in regards to spell selection.

Sure. Hard choice of picking Animate Dead right away, or waiting until level 6 and getting it for free, along with the subclass features that improve it.

[Psyren]

The Wizard can just grab Summon Undead at 5th level instead, and that will tide them over until they get AD and Undead Thralls at 6th. At the level you first grab it, it's quite good even without Undead Thralls.

The material component may be pricey at 5th level depending on your campaign, but it's reusable and therefore a sound investment of your adventuring dollar.

(I have no idea why Clerics didn't get Summon Undead. Since it's going to be core now though, maybe Grave and Death will get rewritten later and be able to pick it up as domain spells then.)

[shadowseve]

Sure. Hard choice of picking Animate Dead right away, or waiting until level 6 and getting it for free, along with the subclass features that improve it.

From what I gather people seem to wait until 6th before becoming the Lord/Lady of the Night and Dead. 😂 to me I think it’s the smarter move. You still have other spells and such. And they say, “the anticipation is killing me.” Lol 😂

[shadowseve]

The Wizard can just grab Summon Undead at 5th level instead, and that will tide them over until they get AD and Undead Thralls at 6th. At the level you first grab it, it's quite good even without Undead Thralls.

The material component may be pricey at 5th level depending on your campaign, but it's reusable and therefore a sound investment of your adventuring dollar.

(I have no idea why Clerics didn't get Summon Undead. Since it's going to be core now though, maybe Grave and Death will get rewritten later and be able to pick it up as domain spells then.)

To me being and undead necro has always been a cleric/priest think. Feels more akward to have a Wizard as our necro. Lol 😂

[Willowhelm]

The Undead Thralls feature works on Summon Undead; it's a necromancy spell.

I’m well aware. But choosing the subclass for that one thing (hp and damage boost) seems like a waste. Hence my question. Play with any other subclass and your summon will be slightly less good, but you get the benefits of that other subclass for everything else. Particularly at low levels where the bonus is small… it just doesn’t seem worth it.

[Psyren]

I’m well aware. But choosing the subclass for that one thing (hp and damage boost) seems like a waste. Hence my question. Play with any other subclass and your summon will be slightly less good, but you get the benefits of that other subclass for everything else. Particularly at low levels where the bonus is small… it just doesn’t seem worth it.

I mean, by that logic anything that isn't Chronurgist isn't "worth it." Presumably people pick Necromancer because that's what they want their character to be, not solely for raw power. (At the end of the day, you're still a wizard, you hardly need your subclass to be the best of the bunch to be effective, even the most effective in the party.)

[sithlordnergal]

May I make a surprising suggestion for a Necromancer: Bard.

Personally, I'd go for a Creation Bard, but Lore Bard works too.

Now, the biggest downside of Bard is that they do not naturally get spells that create undead. Meaning you have to use Magical Secrets to make undead. However, they have some special benefits:

- They have a variety of party buffs that can be used on the undead they create. Spells like Bless and things like Bardic Inspiration can help increase an undead's low hit chance

- This is specifically for Creation Bards, but at level 6 they get Animating Performance. A body is an object, and there's nothing in the rules that prevents you from turning one into your Dancing Object. And at late levels, you can technically just create a dead body out of nothing with Performance of Creation, and that body will last for a few hours

- While you will use most of your Magical Secrets to snag spells like Animate Dead and Create Undead, you can also grab Crusader's Mantle in order to give all of your skeletons/zombies in a 30ft radius of you +1d4 Radiant damage

- You can literally recreate Thriller. >_>

[Willowhelm]

I mean, by that logic anything that isn't Chronurgist isn't "worth it." Presumably people pick Necromancer because that's what they want their character to be, not solely for raw power. (At the end of the day, you're still a wizard, you hardly need your subclass to be the best of the bunch to be effective, even the most effective in the party.)

But you could be an effective necromancer character without picking the necromancy subclass. For that build in particular there isn’t anything that screams “necromancer” apart from… they use one summon spell a lot. Which anyone can. Choosing a subclass based on its name vs the actual mechanical benefits (which can be flavoured) is… a tricky path. He event writes off grim harvest pretty quickly when that is the main feature I’d build around and really hits the necromancer vibe for me. Constantly sucking life out of the creatures I kill to bolster my health - that’s more like it!

[Psyren]

But you could be an effective necromancer character without picking the necromancy subclass. For that build in particular there isn’t anything that screams “necromancer” apart from… they use one summon spell a lot. Which anyone can. Choosing a subclass based on its name vs the actual mechanical benefits (which can be flavoured) is… a tricky path. He event writes off grim harvest pretty quickly when that is the main feature I’d build around and really hits the necromancer vibe for me. Constantly sucking life out of the creatures I kill to bolster my health - that’s more like it!

1) Every wizard can summon, but only Necromancy rewards you for using those two specific summons, which I imagine is what players of this concept are looking for.

2) Grim Harvest is flavorful but unreliable because it requires you to land the killing blow, and it has to be with a spell on top of that. In fact, if you want to build around Grim Harvest you're probably better off spamming evocations rather than necromancy spells until very high levels.

[RogueJK]

- They have a variety of party buffs that can be used on the undead they create. Spells like Bless and things like Bardic Inspiration can help increase an undead's low hit chance

Bless isn't a Bard spell...


This is specifically for Creation Bards, but at level 6 they get Animating Performance. A body is an object, and there's nothing in the rules that prevents you from turning one into your Dancing Object. And at late levels, you can technically just create a dead body out of nothing with Performance of Creation, and that body will last for a few hours

Interesting thought. Corpses are objects, but not all DMs will agree that they are specifically items, as required by Animating Performance.

But if they allowed it, this would technically be a type of animated corpse, and it would have decent survivability thanks to the Dancing Item stats. But it'd be a Construct, not Undead. Like a Flesh/Bone Golem. Still, neat idea.

And if the DM allows that, they might also allow you to use Animate Objects on corpses too, which is already a Bard spell.


While you will use most of your Magical Secrets to snag spells like Animate Dead and Create Undead, you can also grab Crusader's Mantle in order to give all of your skeletons/zombies in a 30ft radius of you +1d4 Radiant damage

+1d4 to the zombie/skeleton's single attacks per turn won't help much, and will do nothing to increase their negligible survivability. They'd still have abysmal HP, AC, and saves. Especially by Level 10 when a Creation Bard would finally gain access to both Animate Dead and Crusader's Mantle... Level 10+ enemies would absolutely demolish a group of plain CR1/4 zombies/skeletons without even breaking a sweat.


Overall, I'd put Creation Bard pretty far down the list of viable undead summoning/controlling PCs. Behind even Hexblade Warlock, Divine Soul Sorcerer, Spores Druid, or traditional Wizard or Cleric, who at least get access to stuff like Animate Dead or Summon Undead at Level 5 instead of 10. Definitely well behind a Necromancer Wizard or Twilight Cleric, who get those on time and have multiple means to buff their survivability and damage. Possibly about even with Oathbreaker Paladin, who doesn't get Animate Dead until Level 9 and has very limited spell slots to use with it, but who can at least easily buff their minions' damage and saves.

[shadowseve]

May I make a surprising suggestion for a Necromancer: Bard.

Personally, I'd go for a Creation Bard, but Lore Bard works too.

Now, the biggest downside of Bard is that they do not naturally get spells that create undead. Meaning you have to use Magical Secrets to make undead. However, they have some special benefits:

- They have a variety of party buffs that can be used on the undead they create. Spells like Bless and things like Bardic Inspiration can help increase an undead's low hit chance

- This is specifically for Creation Bards, but at level 6 they get Animating Performance. A body is an object, and there's nothing in the rules that prevents you from turning one into your Dancing Object. And at late levels, you can technically just create a dead body out of nothing with Performance of Creation, and that body will last for a few hours

- While you will use most of your Magical Secrets to snag spells like Animate Dead and Create Undead, you can also grab Crusader's Mantle in order to give all of your skeletons/zombies in a 30ft radius of you +1d4 Radiant damage

- You can literally recreate Thriller. >_>

Oh I’ve already made one for myself. lol 😂 I have a character that has always done that in my own world so that fits perfectly for me when I ever get a chance to pc again.

[shadowseve]

Bless isn't a Bard spell...



Interesting thought. Corpses are objects, but not all DMs will agree that they are specifically items, as required by Animating Performance.

But if they allowed it, this would technically be a type of animated corpse, and it would have decent survivability thanks to the Dancing Item stats. But it'd be a Construct, not Undead. Like a Flesh/Bone Golem. Still, neat idea.

And if the DM allows that, they might also allow you to use Animate Objects on corpses too, which is already a Bard spell.



+1d4 to the zombie/skeleton's single attacks per turn won't help much, and will do nothing to increase their negligible survivability. They'd still have abysmal HP, AC, and saves. Especially by Level 10 when a Creation Bard would finally gain access to both Animate Dead and Crusader's Mantle... Level 10+ enemies would absolutely demolish a group of plain CR1/4 zombies/skeletons without even breaking a sweat.


Overall, I'd put Creation Bard pretty far down the list of viable undead summoning/controlling PCs. Behind even Hexblade Warlock, Divine Soul Sorcerer, Spores Druid, or traditional Wizard or Cleric, who at least get access to stuff like Animate Dead or Summon Undead at Level 5 instead of 10. Definitely well behind a Necromancer Wizard or Twilight Cleric, who get those on time and have multiple means to buff their survivability and damage. Possibly about even with Oathbreaker Paladin, who doesn't get Animate Dead until Level 9 and has very limited spell slots to use with it, but who can at least easily buff their minions' damage and saves.

I had thought about trying a lore bard for a necro for personal interests. I like the flavor and non of the peeps I run with care about making the most maxed out character. We prefer character concepts vs maxed power these days.

[sithlordnergal]

Bless isn't a Bard spell...


Could have sworn it was, my mistake.




Interesting thought. Corpses are objects, but not all DMs will agree that they are specifically items, as required by Animating Performance.

But if they allowed it, this would technically be a type of animated corpse, and it would have decent survivability thanks to the Dancing Item stats. But it'd be a Construct, not Undead. Like a Flesh/Bone Golem. Still, neat idea.

And if the DM allows that, they might also allow you to use Animate Objects on corpses too, which is already a Bard spell.


I meeean, I'd argue that an object is an item, and vice versa. Though I guess it does fall under DM purview. But if it is an item for that, then it really does have some amazing survivability. Even if its just a Construct and not undead...though lets be honest, I doubt anyone except a Paladin would notice the difference X3




+1d4 to the zombie/skeleton's single attacks per turn won't help much, and will do nothing to increase their negligible survivability. They'd still have abysmal HP, AC, and saves. Especially by Level 10 when a Creation Bard would finally gain access to both Animate Dead and Crusader's Mantle... Level 10+ enemies would absolutely demolish a group of plain CR1/4 zombies/skeletons without even breaking a sweat.
.

To be honest, I actually feel the +1d4 would be more important since it lets them bypass most immunities and resistances, which would normally stop them dead in their tracks. And at that level, even buffed CR 1/4ths tend to fall pretty quickly.

[RogueJK]

And at that level, even buffed CR 1/4ths tend to fall pretty quickly.

Yep. Whereas a Level 5 Summon Undead with an 18 AC and 50 HP would have a chance at 10th Level. Especially if further buffed with an additional +10 HP from being a Necromancer.

And they won't need an additional spell in order to bypass damage resistance...

[Blatant Beast]

Sure. Hard choice of picking Animate Dead right away, or waiting until level 6 and getting it for free, along with the subclass features that improve it.

This response will service all the similar posts. The point is the Wizard is selecting only two spells at 5th level….I think everyone would agree on that.

Are there oddles and oddles of really good 3rd level spells for Wizards?….I think everyone would agree the answer is: yes.

So a Necromancer that selects Fireball and Summon Undead, is missing out on other options. It is literally the textbook case of Opportunity Cost.

In general one doesn’t need to have Animate Dead prepared everyday.
One only needs to prepare the spell when raising the dead, or reasserting control.

Again, a 3rd level Summon Undead spell, even from a Necromancer Wizard, just is not that impressive. One attack and low DCs on the creatures as part of a 3rd level slot, just doesn’t quite cut it.

As soon as the spell is upcast in a fourth level slot, Summon Undead becomes much better.

[Witty Username]

No, if the dm plays smartly he can run it with a lot of minions. I devided them by type and used to run initiative for a group instead of individuals to keep things flowing.


Yeah, I tend to agree, I thought groups of identical monsters are supposed to use shared initiative as default, its what I and the rest of my table does when DMing. I also tend to use wave tactics, groups of associated monsters move and attack as a unit rather than having individual turns, feels more in line with zombies and is pretty quick in play in all honesty. I actually personally find Summon undead harder to run than animate dead, because I like being preprepped with summons

Animate dead is two notecards, Summon Undead is about that as a minimum, with alot more if you are choosing type by context, and you can't go off book if you misplace a card since they don't have a set statblock.

I have personally doing summon Ghostly undead exclusively to keep overhead down.


Sure. Hard choice of picking Animate Dead right away, or waiting until level 6 and getting it for free, along with the subclass features that improve it.

To me being and undead necro has always been a cleric/priest think. Feels more akward to have a Wizard as our necro. Lol 😂
One of the hardest agrees I have had with Treantmonk in a build guide was his old necromancer guide, when he got to the point of 5th level, and noted with significant frustration that animate dead was a sub optimal choice as the build would get it for free next level (I think he even took the spell anyway, with a because I want to play a necromancer dammit).
Summon Undead helps smooth that over alot.

[shadowseve]

Yeah, I tend to agree, I thought groups of identical monsters are supposed to use shared initiative as default, its what I and the rest of my table does when DMing. I also tend to use wave tactics, groups of associated monsters move and attack as a unit rather than having individual turns, feels more in line with zombies and is pretty quick in play in all honesty. I actually personally find Summon undead harder to run than animate dead, because I like being preprepped with summons

Animate dead is two notecards, Summon Undead is about that as a minimum, with alot more if you are choosing type by context, and you can't go off book if you misplace a card since they don't have a set statblock.

I have personally doing summon Ghostly undead exclusively to keep overhead down.



One of the hardest agrees I have had with Treantmonk in a build guide was his old necromancer guide, when he got to the point of 5th level, and noted with significant frustration that animate dead was a sub optimal choice as the build would get it for free next level (I think he even took the spell anyway, with a because I want to play a necromancer dammit).
Summon Undead helps smooth that over alot.

Honestly I’m that video I think he made the right call. Optimal doesn’t just mean on paper. What point is playing a necromancer if you don’t take necromancy based spells? I think character concept really needs to be a major focus even if it’s not the most optimal on paper. I judge a character on just a few points. Was the character built on point concept wise and did the player have fun without spilling the fun for everyone else? If the answer is yes then It is a great character. How is a person a necro if they’re constantly delaying necromancy features and spells?

[JackPhoenix]

So a Necromancer that selects Fireball and Summon Undead, is missing out on other options. It is literally the textbook case of Opportunity Cost.

And any wizard that selects any spell is missing out on other spells. Your point? My point is that Animate Dead does not come with any opportunity cost to a necromancer, because he'll get it for free at level 6.


In general one doesn’t need to have Animate Dead prepared everyday.
One only needs to prepare the spell when raising the dead, or reasserting control.

In other words, every day you actually want to have the undead available. Because if you're not reasserting control, you're limited to 1 (2, if you're a necromancer) undead per 3rd level spell slot instead of 4 undead per 3rd level spell slot (+2 per upcasted spell level).


As soon as the spell is upcast in a fourth level slot, Summon Undead becomes much better.

Not that I ever mentioned Summon Undead, but does SU become much better than 6 skeletons or zombies, though?
It requires concentration and lasts for an hour, while AD undead don't require concentration and stay around until they are destroyed.
It's got 47 or 37 HP, while you can get 120 HP worth of skeletons or 174 HP worth of zombies (if you want a wall of rotting flesh instead of something that can output any damage). The AD HP is also spread amongst multiple targets, which provides both advantage and disadvantage... they are vulnerable to AoEs when clumped up, true, but a single equal-level enemy won't multiattack your spell slot investment into oblivion in a single turn.
It's got 15 AC, compared to 13 AC skeletons or (terrible) 8 AC zombie, but you can equip permanent undead with better armor, if you want... though then comes the question of proficiency. Still, for the cost of less than Summon Undead's material component (240 GP vs 300 GP), you can equip your 6 zombies with ring mail and shields, for AC 16, though then they'll be even more relegated to the role of meat shields thanks to disadvantage on attacks (assuming you won't solve that issue through dropping Fog Cloud, Darkness, Pyrotechnics or even Stinking Cloud on the battlefield).
+6 to +7 to hit is better than +4 or +3 for skeletons or zombies (respectively), of course, but quantity supplants quality there.. 6 attacks are better than 2, and make up for the worse accuracy.
And the best damaging summon, skeletal, does 2x 12, or 24 DPR, compared to 6x 8.5, or 51 DPR for skeletons (ignoring resistences, which are situational, and not as common as some people would have you believe). And again, there's the potential option of equiping the skeletons with better weapons. Zombies' 45 potential DPR is nothing to scoff at either, though it's much less likely to actually be relevant.

[Blatant Beast]

Not that I ever mentioned Summon Undead, but does SU become much better than 6 skeletons or zombies, though?

I am afraid you misread my post. The point about Summon Undead was not comparing it against Animate Dead, it was comparing the difference in effect from upcasting vs a Summon Undead spell that uses a 3rd level spell slot.

Summon Undead, was being bandied about as one of the 5th level spell selection for a Necromancer Wizard, given a Necromancer receives Animate Dead as part of their 6th level subclass feature.

My opinion: Summon Undead from a 3rd level slot, is not great.
(Which, I will opine is a fairly non spicy take)