Why cast Giant Insect when there's Conjure Animals?

[Segev]

As it says in the thread title, what am I missing here? Giant insect creates weaker creatures for a higher-level spell slot, as far as I can tell. Am I wrong?

[Willowhelm]

Conjure animals is contentious at many tables. How it is run is quite variable and affects its strength dramatically. Eg. DM decides what is summoned, curated list, or total ban.

Giant insect gives the player control - you get what you cast it on.

The max cr for insects is higher. It explicitly has the creatures go on your turn rather than having their own initiative.

There’s always the non-mechanical factors too. What is an “on brand” selection for a bug-based Druid is different to another with strong ties to the feywild. Maybe they have an RP reason why they will never summon or bind sapient creatures?

There’s other niche reasons why you might want to avoid fey creatures too. Areas of forbiddance etc.

[RogueJK]

Keep in mind that, RAW (per the Sage Advice Compendium document), the DM gets to choose what animals show up when you cast Conjure Animals. You only get to choose the general CR. So you might be fighting a flying enemy, and cast Conjure Animals, only to end up with some snakes that are useless in the aerial fight.

Whereas Giant Insect specifically allows the caster to choose their insects, provided they have a way to have some normal ones of them on hand. So you can keep some wasps in a bottle, to bust out when you need to summon some flying Giant Wasps specifically, etc.


In addition, the Level 4 spell Giant Insect lets you summon more of the same (or higher) level creature than if they were summoned by a Level 3 or 4 Conjure Animals. (Conjure Animals doesn't increase the output until upcast into Level 5 slots.)

Giant Insect cast at Level 4:
1x CR3
3x CR1
5x CR1/2
10x CR1/4

Conjure Animals cast at Level 3 or 4:
1x CR2
2x CR1
4x CR1/2
8x CR1/4

[Segev]

Maybe it's just me, but my druids would tend to be the sort that would not view real insects they keep as pets as "disposable," though that's not really a balance consideration. I suppose if conjure animals is run in such a way that the DM can and does render it a wasted spell slot a significant portion of the time, the certainty becomes worthwhile. But even so, does it really rise to the level of a 4th level spell?

Also, if conjure animals is run as the caster picking the critters summoned, does giant insect really add enough to make preparing it over a spell you can cast with a lower-level slot worth preparing, either instead of or (worse) in addition to that lower-level spell?

I'm asking because giant insect is actually rather on-brand for my druid, who adores spiders and other small critters and would love to make them grow big to attack things. But conjure animals just seems, if not better, then at least so close to "just as good" that the lower level spell slot and the hour duration (vs. 10 minutes for giant insects) is just... strategically dominant. Preparing giant insect seems to me to be something that is a foolish choice compared to conjure animals, and save the 4th level spell slots for things like polymorph and control water.

I feel I should add that taking sub-optimal spells for flavor is something I need to avoid doing with this PC, because I'm already struggling to make this druid a viable contributor to our fights. We're 8th level, and my strategy to have battlefield control spells is one I have to abandon due to the party composition not supporting it. If I use them, I screw over the party far more than the enemies. I'm most definitely not a tank or front-line fighter; Circle of the Land (Underdark) is the subclass I have. We are IN the Underdark, so call lightning is generally a wasted prepared slot. I'm...okay as a utility caster and healer, but not great. I'm generally useless in combat, with thorn whip helping a little. Unless I cast conjure animals, which seems to be the only useful thing I can contribute aside from wild shaping into a rocktopus.

[stoutstien]

The biggest consideration is the fact that it's not conjuring anything but rather transforming with already exists. If you have something like a watch pally in your party its allows a little easier targeting of such options.

Had a player forget this fact at a very unfortunate moment.

[Willowhelm]

Also, if conjure animals is run as the caster picking the critters summoned, does giant insect really add enough to make preparing it over a spell you can cast with a lower-level slot worth preparing, either instead of or (worse) in addition to that lower-level spell?

I'm asking because giant insect is actually rather on-brand for my druid, who adores spiders and other small critters and would love to make them grow big to attack things. But conjure animals just seems, if not better, then at least so close to "just as good" that the lower level spell slot and the hour duration (vs. 10 minutes for giant insects) is just... strategically dominant. Preparing giant insect seems to me to be something that is a foolish choice compared to conjure animals, and save the 4th level spell slots for things like polymorph and control water.

I feel I should add that taking sub-optimal spells for flavor is something I need to avoid doing with this PC, because I'm already struggling to make this druid a viable contributor to our fights. We're 8th level, and my strategy to have battlefield control spells is one I have to abandon due to the party composition not supporting it. If I use them, I screw over the party far more than the enemies. I'm most definitely not a tank or front-line fighter; Circle of the Land (Underdark) is the subclass I have. We are IN the Underdark, so call lightning is generally a wasted prepared slot. I'm...okay as a utility caster and healer, but not great. I'm generally useless in combat, with thorn whip helping a little. Unless I cast conjure animals, which seems to be the only useful thing I can contribute aside from wild shaping into a rocktopus.

If you’re allowed to select the creatures, and the DM allows you to essentially control them, then it is going to be the easiest choice and an absolute game changer for your Druid providing straight DPR. No reason to take giant insect, especially with the RP considerations you mention.

There are plenty of guides for “optimal” picks but with a generous DM it can be your go-to strategy in most encounters. Usually the reason not to take CA is because the DM has nerfed it in some way or doesn’t want to deal with all the extra creatures.

It isn’t the question of the thread but I’d be interested in delving deeper into why the control options aren’t working. Eg. plant growth lets you shape the growth how you like and is pretty powerful (even without broken rulings which just make it daft). Spike growth pairs well with grapple and drag options for cheese grater strategies (also if the party have any other forced movement options). You also start getting wall spells etc…

Your healing can also be pretty silly (again depending on DM rulings) as you can produce 100s of hp of goodberries before a long rest with any unused spell slots.

A lot of the Druid spells have big grey areas so their strength is determined by how the table plays and what the DM rules.

What is the party? What’re you trying to do? What isn’t working?

[Damon_Tor]

Giant Insect takes an existing creature and transforms it. A druid could befriend a scorpion, get it some warrior sidekick levels, then buff the scorpion that now has class levels with the Giant Insect spell.

[Monster Manuel]

All of the giant insects have the Poison ability, with the rider that if reduced to 0 HP the target is stable but paralyzed for an hour. It's a stretch, but this could be useful in some scenarios. 10 Giant Centipedes is 10 chances for the poison to hit, if that's what you're going for. Of course, if you up-cast Conjure Animals to match Giant insects' 4th level, you could get 16 Giant Centipedes, for an hour, and you wouldn't have to find them to giant-size in the first place, so even this is a pretty weak argument.

As a side note, they HAVE to be fixing the Conjure spells as part of the revised edition, right? They have to be.

[Willowhelm]

If you’re looking for 4th level competition for conjure animals then conjure woodland beings offers some neat features. (Ignoring broken pixie summon approaches). I’d prepare that over giant insects personally.

[JackPhoenix]

Of course, if you up-cast Conjure Animals to match Giant insects' 4th level...

... you won't get anything you wouldn't get from level 3 slot, except better resistance to Counterspell and Dispel Magic.

[Mastikator]

Maybe it's just me, but my druids would tend to be the sort that would not view real insects they keep as pets as "disposable," though that's not really a balance consideration. I suppose if conjure animals is run in such a way that the DM can and does render it a wasted spell slot a significant portion of the time, the certainty becomes worthwhile. But even so, does it really rise to the level of a 4th level spell?

Also, if conjure animals is run as the caster picking the critters summoned, does giant insect really add enough to make preparing it over a spell you can cast with a lower-level slot worth preparing, either instead of or (worse) in addition to that lower-level spell?

I'm asking because giant insect is actually rather on-brand for my druid, who adores spiders and other small critters and would love to make them grow big to attack things. But conjure animals just seems, if not better, then at least so close to "just as good" that the lower level spell slot and the hour duration (vs. 10 minutes for giant insects) is just... strategically dominant. Preparing giant insect seems to me to be something that is a foolish choice compared to conjure animals, and save the 4th level spell slots for things like polymorph and control water.

I feel I should add that taking sub-optimal spells for flavor is something I need to avoid doing with this PC, because I'm already struggling to make this druid a viable contributor to our fights. We're 8th level, and my strategy to have battlefield control spells is one I have to abandon due to the party composition not supporting it. If I use them, I screw over the party far more than the enemies. I'm most definitely not a tank or front-line fighter; Circle of the Land (Underdark) is the subclass I have. We are IN the Underdark, so call lightning is generally a wasted prepared slot. I'm...okay as a utility caster and healer, but not great. I'm generally useless in combat, with thorn whip helping a little. Unless I cast conjure animals, which seems to be the only useful thing I can contribute aside from wild shaping into a rocktopus.

I mean, if you want to summon 4 giant wasps and your DM says "sorry, there's no giant wasps here, but there are crocodiles instead", is that really a wasted action? (it's an example of 4x 1/2 CR beasts as per spell description).

I think DM moderation for that kind of spell is warranted and valid considering how easily abusable it is, and what lengths will have to go through to balance the game if the player is allowed to purposefully and willfully break the game balance.

I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. The players are not playing chess against the DM, the DM set up chess puzzles for the players with the intent that they will win. The player who tries to break the game can and will always find that the DM can summon an unlimited number of monsters to waste the player's time.

In the end the only action that is truly wasted is the one that wastes real time, and steals time and effort from an interesting story being told.

[tiornys]

We're 8th level, and my strategy to have battlefield control spells is one I have to abandon due to the party composition not supporting it. If I use them, I screw over the party far more than the enemies.
The general goal of battlefield control is to split a group of enemies into two smaller groups that are individually easier to dispatch. If your party is the "rush ahead into melee" types (and attempts to get them to cooperate with you have failed), you can still use battlefield control effectively by placing the spells less ideally. For example, instead of blocking an entire hall/tunnel with a Web or Spike Growth, you might place it behind 1 or 2 of the enemy units so your melee has someone to engage, or you might leave a narrow clear pathway on one side that your melee can block off/use to reach the enemy back ranks. In general, if your party is too target-happy to be patient if you happen to cripple the movement/sight lines/whatever of every enemy, leave your party some targets in the clear and aim to cripple half of the enemy instead.

[Segev]

It isn’t the question of the thread but I’d be interested in delving deeper into why the control options aren’t working. Eg. plant growth lets you shape the growth how you like and is pretty powerful (even without broken rulings which just make it daft). Spike growth pairs well with grapple and drag options for cheese grater strategies (also if the party have any other forced movement options). You also start getting wall spells etc…

Your healing can also be pretty silly (again depending on DM rulings) as you can produce 100s of hp of goodberries before a long rest with any unused spell slots.

A lot of the Druid spells have big grey areas so their strength is determined by how the table plays and what the DM rules.

What is the party? What’re you trying to do? What isn’t working?We have a melee rogue(assassin), a Swords Bard, a ranged Gloomstalker Ranger, and a flying warlock summoner who likes the Summon [template thing] line of spells.

As a general rule, the enemies are positioned so mingled with the party that crowd control will hurt the party at least as much as the enemies. The two meleeists are screwed if I manage to put an area crowd control or field-of-damage spell down. And that's assuming they're not already so close to the enemy that anything that catches the enemy also catches them. The ranged guys won't mind so much, but the only enemies that I won't screw over the meleeists targeting are the ranged guys who already are happy with where they're sitting.


The general goal of battlefield control is to split a group of enemies into two smaller groups that are individually easier to dispatch. If your party is the "rush ahead into melee" types (and attempts to get them to cooperate with you have failed), you can still use battlefield control effectively by placing the spells less ideally. For example, instead of blocking an entire hall/tunnel with a Web or Spike Growth, you might place it behind 1 or 2 of the enemy units so your melee has someone to engage, or you might leave a narrow clear pathway on one side that your melee can block off/use to reach the enemy back ranks. In general, if your party is too target-happy to be patient if you happen to cripple the movement/sight lines/whatever of every enemy, leave your party some targets in the clear and aim to cripple half of the enemy instead.

The sword bard has some forced movement, and I have a buffed thorn whip that pulls 20 feet instead of 10. But if I drop the spike growth anywhere, it would trap the bard and the assassin in it, too, typically. And possibly the warlock's summon. Trying to position myself to get where I can thorn whip the enemy after placing a spike growth always seems to get me isolated and surrounded (which is probably just me being really bad at the game). Web protects the enemy more than my allies if I use it. I'm the only one with mobility through it. I also have high mobility through plant growth, but again, placing it doesn't seem to hinder enemy movement as much as allied movement, no matter how I shape it. LIterally the only time we got in a fight where I thought, "Man, spike growth would be useful here," was the one time I'd decided to drop it in favor of something else.

I honestly don't know what I'm doing wrong, but any attempt to use battlefield control always seems to help the enemy more than my allies, if it has any effect at all. This could just be the DM being better at using the battlefield than any of us. Which frustrates me, because I like to think I'm decent at tactics, and learning I am an idiot who can't do anything right with them is very depressing.

[Willowhelm]

We have a melee rogue(assassin), a Swords Bard, a ranged Gloomstalker Ranger, and a flying warlock summoner who likes the Summon [template thing] line of spells.

As a general rule, the enemies are positioned so mingled with the party that crowd control will hurt the party at least as much as the enemies. The two meleeists are screwed if I manage to put an area crowd control or field-of-damage spell down. And that's assuming they're not already so close to the enemy that anything that catches the enemy also catches them. The ranged guys won't mind so much, but the only enemies that I won't screw over the meleeists targeting are the ranged guys who already are happy with where they're sitting.



The sword bard has some forced movement, and I have a buffed thorn whip that pulls 20 feet instead of 10. But if I drop the spike growth anywhere, it would trap the bard and the assassin in it, too, typically. And possibly the warlock's summon. Trying to position myself to get where I can thorn whip the enemy after placing a spike growth always seems to get me isolated and surrounded (which is probably just me being really bad at the game). Web protects the enemy more than my allies if I use it. I'm the only one with mobility through it. I also have high mobility through plant growth, but again, placing it doesn't seem to hinder enemy movement as much as allied movement, no matter how I shape it. LIterally the only time we got in a fight where I thought, "Man, spike growth would be useful here," was the one time I'd decided to drop it in favor of something else.

I honestly don't know what I'm doing wrong, but any attempt to use battlefield control always seems to help the enemy more than my allies, if it has any effect at all. This could just be the DM being better at using the battlefield than any of us. Which frustrates me, because I like to think I'm decent at tactics, and learning I am an idiot who can't do anything right with them is very depressing.

It doesn’t sound like you’re doing anything wrong precisely. It does sound like a tough table to do control with though. You could talk to the other players (out of character) or characters (in character) and see if they can adapt or work with you. Running into melee when the Druid can protect you and the ranged characters can just pick off the enemy from safety can be “fun” but is certainly not the most efficient/effective option.

The flying warlock shouldn’t be bothered by plant growth or spike growth, and can summon their summon on the far side. If the bard picks up misty spell they can bounce around too. The rogue can mix it up with ranged options sometimes.

Rather than using plant growth as a big slow down, think of it as shaping the terrain how you like. You can channel the enemy to a kill box/choke point and make retreat hard… then the melee chars can stand in that choke point 300-style and just take down the enemies one at a time.

But conjure animals/woodland beings is a good solution too if that play style isn’t working. Personally if the character isn’t working well for me I would just talk to the DM about why and consider making a new char.

[Monster Manuel]

... you won't get anything you wouldn't get from level 3 slot, except better resistance to Counterspell and Dispel Magic.

Ah, yeah. The numbers double at 5th, not 4th, don't they?

So, you do get 10 centipedes with GI as opposed to 8 with CA. Point is still that those two extra chances to apply a poison condition are not remotely worth a full spell level. Not mechanically worth it, unless you want to for thematic/character reasons.

[Witty Username]

So generally,

If you are using conjure animals for the same things.
8 vs 10 giant centipedes
4 vs 5 giant wasps
2 vs 3 giant spiders
And the option for 1 giant scorpion exclusive to giant insects

So giant insects will get you generally about the same number of creatures, slightly more for the 4th level spell. Notably here conjure animals can be upcast while giant insects cannot.

Notably neither "let you" pick the creatures as giant insect requires the DM to provode available insects, and giant insects is more restricted as conjure animals fail case is the DM picking other creatures as opposed to insects being unavailable.

If conjure animals is available giant insects seems lackluster.
--
On DM moderation, the goal is to limit power not thematics, if a player wants to cast conjure animals as only summoning insects, is it really a benefit to the game to make the spell weak or unreliable?

So I would say it is fair to evaluate conjure animals assuming the game allows for thematic choices.

[Bardon]

Conjure Animals wins just on the basis that Giant Insect requires there to be the appropriate insects within 30' of you, whereas with Conjure Animals you can cast it in the middle of the Kings Court.

[Damon_Tor]

Notably neither "let you" pick the creatures as giant insect requires the DM to provode available insects, and giant insects is more restricted as conjure animals fail case is the DM picking other creatures as opposed to insects being unavailable.

It strains credibility if you can't find wasps or spiders someplace. The spell even explicitly allows you to swap out reasonably close approximates, bees for wasps as the example given. If the party is taking a long rest and the druid is like "I'ma go find some ants to put in a jar for tomorrow" what's the excuse for not letting him find any? Would you even make him do a nature check? They're freaking everywhere. It would be like the DM telling the druid he can't find any suitable rocks for Magic Stones. Exceptions for locations like Cyre that are explicitly devoid of life, but 99% of the time this spell should work as desired.

[Goobahfish]

Conjure Animals is just a very poorly designed spell. A spell where the DM needs to intervene in its effect which isn't explicitly tied to 'wild magic' or something else is just... such bad design.

So, Giant Insect, which is perhaps slightly-undertuned is probably closer to balanced than Conjure Animals. The problem is that at level 5, it feels very weak. You do have a CR = 3 option which is unique at least and 5 giant wasps are fun.

---

In terms of your party/DM. You have to wonder if your DM is doing a good job. If there aren't fights where your character 'feels powerful and useful' then that might be a different issue going on.

How often are you trying to stop a group of monsters running away and spike-growth/plant-growth stops them in their tracks? How often are the monsters split into different groups where pinning one group down for a turn or two allows your melee-folk to clean up while the reinforcements are stuck?

If that isn't happening, sounds like your DM is playing a war game rather than D&D?

[JellyPooga]

Personally, I don't like Conjure Animals for the simple reason that it doesn't actually conjure, y'know, animals.

As a Druid, I want to be the guy that summons actual real animals from the environment I'm in, not conjuring fey spirits from another realm of existence. I want to be the guy that has actual real berries that I enchant to be super-nutritious and heal wounds, even if that means I find a plant and make them grow magically, rather than making them just *poof* appear out of nowhere. Magicking stuff from other worlds or to appear out of nowhere is the realm of sorcerers, wizards and, well, conjurers. That's not Druids, to me. Druids manipulate and guide nature; the actual, tangible world around them. Can that include a little borrowing from nearby realms, such as the fey? Sure it can, it's magic after all, but it shouldn't be the mainstay. It should be doing a deal with a nymph to borrow her glamour for a while, or calling a unicorn to ask them to heal their friend, but either should be nearby in order to do so and it should be a communication, not a demand and certainly not just randomly summoned from the aether. The scope of what a Druid can do should be dependent on their environment; it's what they are; they should be the friend to animals and fey creatures, for example, because animals and fey are deeply connected to their environment and so is the Druid, not because the Druid has bewildered or charmed them with magical beguilement as a sorcerer might. Not unless the Druid is abusing their power, of course (but then I'd argue they're a "fallen" Druid and no true Druid at all *spits, clicks fingers and spins three times*).

Now I understand why conjuring fey spirits is more convenient from the perspective of game mechanics; it prevents the Druid from being super situational and lets them display their flashy computer graphics spells wherever and whenever they want...but for me that's about as desirable as saying that the Fighter can use his "Greatsword Mega-Slash" ability when he doesn't even have a weapon, let alone a sword, two-handed or otherwise. Yeah, Push-Button-Make-Fun is good and all, but there's limits to what buttons should be able to be pushed at a given time to preserve the narrative.

So yeah, Giant Insect over Conjure Animals any day, because it fit the Druid narrative way better! :smalltongue:

[Segev]

Personally, I don't like Conjure Animals for the simple reason that it doesn't actually conjure, y'know, animals.

As a Druid, I want to be the guy that summons actual real animals from the environment I'm in, not conjuring fey spirits from another realm of existence. I want to be the guy that has actual real berries that I enchant to be super-nutritious and heal wounds, even if that means I find a plant and make them grow magically, rather than making them just *poof* appear out of nowhere. Magicking stuff from other worlds or to appear out of nowhere is the realm of sorcerers, wizards and, well, conjurers. That's not Druids, to me. Druids manipulate and guide nature; the actual, tangible world around them. Can that include a little borrowing from nearby realms, such as the fey? Sure it can, it's magic after all, but it shouldn't be the mainstay. It should be doing a deal with a nymph to borrow her glamour for a while, or calling a unicorn to ask them to heal their friend, but either should be nearby in order to do so and it should be a communication, not a demand and certainly not just randomly summoned from the aether. The scope of what a Druid can do should be dependent on their environment; it's what they are; they should be the friend to animals and fey creatures, for example, because animals and fey are deeply connected to their environment and so is the Druid, not because the Druid has bewildered or charmed them with magical beguilement as a sorcerer might. Not unless the Druid is abusing their power, of course (but then I'd argue they're a "fallen" Druid and no true Druid at all *spits, clicks fingers and spins three times*).

Now I understand why conjuring fey spirits is more convenient from the perspective of game mechanics; it prevents the Druid from being super situational and lets them display their flashy computer graphics spells wherever and whenever they want...but for me that's about as desirable as saying that the Fighter can use his "Greatsword Mega-Slash" ability when he doesn't even have a weapon, let alone a sword, two-handed or otherwise. Yeah, Push-Button-Make-Fun is good and all, but there's limits to what buttons should be able to be pushed at a given time to preserve the narrative.

So yeah, Giant Insect over Conjure Animals any day, because it fit the Druid narrative way better! :smalltongue:
All good points, but is giant insect worth a 4th level spell slot? It seems like it'd be better to reduce giant insect to third level and, if it's really too potent for 3rd level, reduce it to match the CRs of conjure animals.

THough, also, you could just insist on conjuring local animals to your location instead of fey spirits appearing out of nowhere; that'd be an easy change to make to it for a DM.

[JellyPooga]

All good points, but is giant insect worth a 4th level spell slot? It seems like it'd be better to reduce giant insect to third level and, if it's really too potent for 3rd level, reduce it to match the CRs of conjure animals.

THough, also, you could just insist on conjuring local animals to your location instead of fey spirits appearing out of nowhere; that'd be an easy change to make to it for a DM.

Oh yeah, my complaint is super easily solved by some minor houserules that would have very little mechanical impact. Yeah, sure, there'd be some basically self-imposed limitations for the Druid player based on environment and some minor in-game effects, but largely speaking little would change.

An argument could be made that the Druid as a Class might need a boost due to the environmental/situational limitations, but we're talking on the level of getting an extra skill, tool and/or language proficiency or two.

As for the actual mechanical difference between Giant Insect vs. Conjure Animals, I agree with those saying GI isn't really worth the extra spell level. I do think that if CA didn't exist, that GI would be decent enough a pick for a 4th level spell, but only barely; compared more directly to Conjure Woodland Beings or Conjure Minor Elementals it certainly pales; as has been pointed out in this thread, the difference in the duration (10min vs. 1hr) alone is a head-scratcher, let alone the discepancy in variety and abilities avaliable to the two Conjures, or the (technically) situational nature of GI.

[Witty Username]

It strains credibility if you can't find wasps or spiders someplace. The spell even explicitly allows you to swap out reasonably close approximates, bees for wasps as the example given. If the party is taking a long rest and the druid is like "I'ma go find some ants to put in a jar for tomorrow" what's the excuse for not letting him find any? Would you even make him do a nature check? They're freaking everywhere. It would be like the DM telling the druid he can't find any suitable rocks for Magic Stones. Exceptions for locations like Cyre that are explicitly devoid of life, but 99% of the time this spell should work as desired.

I pretty much agree, It is just that also with conjure animals the DM picking the creature is being used to disallow a spell from fitting the theme of the character or appropriateness of the area, which while fair to the rules, also seems like not the intended purpose of the restriction.

I am just saying that a DM that looks at you saying, can I Conjure Spiders, that would fit my character nicely, and responds no you get X thing and like it, may also be the kind of DM that doesn't have insects exist in the game, DM malpractice things.

[J-H]

Let's compare the CR3 Giant Scorpion to a 6th level monk with 16 Dex, 16 Wis, and 14 Con.

AC: Scorpion 15, Monk 16; advantage, Monk, barely
Speed: Both 45'; advantage, Monk, barely
HP: Scorpion 52, monk 45 if I didn't mess up my math; Advantage, scorpion
Senses: Scorpion blindsight 60' but low Perception; monk high Perception, but no blindsight; scorpion has more utility
Number of attacks/rd: Scorpion 3, Monk 3
To hit: Scorpion +4, Monk +6; advantage, monk
DPR: Scorpion 34.5 assuming the save vs poison succeeds and no resistances, Monk 19.5; big advantage, scorpion
Specials: Scorpion has 2 auto-grapples and a heavy poison hit usable every round, Monk has 6 ki points for stun and subclass features.

Which would you rather have on your side in a melee fight? A giant scorpion, or a 6th level monk? I'd take the scorpion.

[Segev]

Let's compare the CR3 Giant Scorpion to a 6th level monk with 16 Dex, 16 Wis, and 14 Con.

AC: Scorpion 15, Monk 16; advantage, Monk, barely
Speed: Both 45'; advantage, Monk, barely
HP: Scorpion 52, monk 45 if I didn't mess up my math; Advantage, scorpion
Senses: Scorpion blindsight 60' but low Perception; monk high Perception, but no blindsight; scorpion has more utility
Number of attacks/rd: Scorpion 3, Monk 3
To hit: Scorpion +4, Monk +6; advantage, monk
DPR: Scorpion 34.5 assuming the save vs poison succeeds and no resistances, Monk 19.5; big advantage, scorpion
Specials: Scorpion has 2 auto-grapples and a heavy poison hit usable every round, Monk has 6 ki points for stun and subclass features.

Which would you rather have on your side in a melee fight? A giant scorpion, or a 6th level monk? I'd take the scorpion.

Maybe I am just being pedantic, here, but the scorpion isn't available until you are at least level 7.

[J-H]

6 was an easy inflection point for me to run the numbers at. For the monk, the difference is 7hp, bringing it even with the scorpion, 1 ki point, evasion, and still mind.

[rel]

Giant insect is meant for the creepy evil NPC magic user.

[Segev]

Giant insect is meant for the creepy evil NPC magic user.

But again, why wouldn't he just cast conjure animals? I suppose if NPCs don't use resources, that's one thing.

[rel]

But again, why wouldn't he just cast conjure animals? I suppose if NPCs don't use resources, that's one thing.

Same reason they stop to monologue, don't cast their ultimate spell until round 4 of the combat and imprison the defeated PC's in the easily escapable dungeon instead of just stabbing them while they're unconscious.
It's more fun that way.

If you've ever wondered why a given spell is laughably weak, unbelievably overpowered, or just weirdly situational, the answer is often 'a DM in the distant past needed an NPC to do something very specific and invented a spell to do it'.

[Segev]

Same reason they stop to monologue, don't cast their ultimate spell until round 4 of the combat and imprison the defeated PC's in the easily escapable dungeon instead of just stabbing them while they're unconscious.
It's more fun that way.

If you've ever wondered why a given spell is laughably weak, unbelievably overpowered, or just weirdly situational, the answer is often 'a DM in the distant past needed an NPC to do something very specific and invented a spell to do it'.

That doesn't really answer, "Why is it 4th level instead of 3rd, and why is its duration shorter than a comparable lower-level spell's?"

[Goobahfish]

That doesn't really answer, "Why is it 4th level instead of 3rd, and why is its duration shorter than a comparable lower-level spell's?"

The answer to that question, is the spell is poorly balanced.

The answer to the question 'why is the spell poorly balanced?' Who knows, bad design.

The answer to the question 'why would an evil person do anything?' => Aesthetic reasons.

[rel]

That doesn't really answer, "Why is it 4th level instead of 3rd, and why is its duration shorter than a comparable lower-level spell's?"

Probably because Giant Vermin was 4th level in 3.5. A lot of the more obscure spells that are only really meant to be used by NPC's were ported over without rigorous balance changes.

[crabwizard77]

You could try asking your DM to buff Giant insects, or lower its level. Considering (If I read your posts correctly) you already have a buffed thorn whip, this might work.