OOTS #1288 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Primeone]

Is "Blue Poet" a reference to some monster I'm not familiar with?

[trrebi981]

Mein Gött, she's a Dungeon Master! She's too dangerous to be left alive!

[Moochbear]

Never underestimate the destructive power of bad poetry.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

OK, I know disenchanters and rust monsters are real exist in d&d, and I know paragon is a template, but how many of the others are actually stat'ed? The bees? Is the Blue poet a blue, with a weird prestige class?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[flat_footed]

Is "Blue Poet" a reference to some monster I'm not familiar with?


OK, I know disenchanters and rust monsters are real, and I know paragon is a template, but how many of the others are actually real? The bees? Is the Blue poet a blue, with a weird prestige class?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

I'm also coming up empty. No clue what it's in reference to yet.

[Ellye]

"Blue Poet" is probably just a nod/reference to the trope of giving mundane-sounding names to eldritch abominations.

Colors, especially, tend to feature heavily on that naming scheme. like the King in Yellow for the original example.

[RMS Oceanic]

Serini looks at modern game design which makes such permanent consequences exceedingly rare and proclaims "Phooey!"

[Savil]

How soon are we likely to meet here the legendary therblewurkersaurus? :smallbiggrin:

[dancrilis]

Nice comic - Team Evil doesn't seem to overly rely overly on equipment so might not be that much of an issue for them however.


OK, I know disenchanters and rust monsters are real exist in d&d, and I know paragon is a template, but how many of the others are actually stat'ed? The bees? Is the Blue poet a blue, with a weird prestige class?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

I don't think that fumblebees actually exist but mechanically giant wasps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giantWasp.htm) could mess with dexterity (likely too weak for Serini's needs), Blue Poet I have even less - drawing a complete blank on the seven ears for a DnD creature (maybe a reference to having an ear for music?).

[pendell]

Okay, this is worse than the Tomb of Horrors, isn't it? Because the Tomb was a tournament module; tough but fair. In this case, Serini isn't even trying to be fair; she just wants unauthorized visitors to be dead, permanently.

Rich? If you're reading this I demand a module once OOTS has completed its run. This is a very, very cool dungeon crawl you've got here even if we are getting the guided tour from Serini. I'm pretty sure these traps would have laid waste to the Order if they didn't have her along. I'm kind of interested to see what it does to Team Evil when they come through.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Flame of Anor]

I think it's an excellent bit of whimsy that this dungeon is so esoteric the Giant is just making up monsters.

[andreas002]

Now this is a dungeon Gygax would be proud of!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think it's an excellent bit of whimsy that this dungeon is so esoteric the Giant is just making up monsters.

I'm fairly sure some of them are made up. But the goat that eats magical objects with an elephant trunk is pre-existing, as is the rust monster that would then presumably munch on the now non-enchanted objects, a one-two punch that strips the invaders of all their equipment (and then die, mind you, 'cause disenchanters are CR 3). A decade of MitD threads has exposed me to the reality that there are some weird creatures out there.

ETA: any idea what the three-eyed tentacled monster of encounter 2 might actually be?

GW

[Crusher]

Rogue-designed dungeons are the most fun.

Blue Poets and Knee-Stealers aren't official D&D monsters, right? I mean, I'll look them up anyway, but with a confirmation I'll waste less time doing it.

[Teln]

Having disenchanters as the first encounter is deliciously evil, and I get the feeling that Kraagor would've approved. "Any party badass enough to reach the Final Dungeon in the first place is badass enough to do it with one hand tied behind their backs!"

[Crusher]

ETA: any idea what the three-eyed tentacled monster of encounter 2 might actually be?

GW

My initial guess is a Froghemoth (sic).

Edit - Some quick searching confirms it. CR13, so not a major powerhouse but decently tough, particularly if everyone is sans equipment and DEX-drained. Also, in a major surprise, I spelled it correctly.

[ManuelSacha]

Serious question: would the right amount of ears be zero? :smallsmile:

[Rad]

I miss old school dungeons...

[Metastachydium]

I'm fairly sure some of them are made up. But the goat that eats magical objects with an elephant trunk is pre-existing,

I think the 3.x version is larger, has no trunk and uses its tail club and… Tongue, I believe? (Looks like Serini wasn't told they are using psionics either, though; otherwise there'd be Folugubs as well.)

[Blue Dragon]

The best part is seeing that none of the especulations made by the other forum members since "Change of Scenery" been confirmed. Mr. Burlew knows his public. Bonus points for the "blue poet" thing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My initial guess is a Froghemoth (sic).

Edit - Some quick searching confirms it. CR13, so not a major powerhouse but decently tough, particularly if everyone is sans equipment and DEX-drained. Also, in a major surprise, I spelled it correctly.

I mean, a 4/4 trample for 5 that exiles cards, gains +1/+1 and heals you on damage to player is nothing to be sneezed at. Probably a bit expensive for a green deck, they tend to go more for zerg tactics, from what I recall, but still, not bad.

... I may have found the stats for it from the wrong game.

GW

[Faldrath]

Nice comic - Team Evil doesn't seem to overly rely overly on equipment so might not be that much of an issue for them however.

Xykon has at least two magic items, right? The boots and the ring?

[Shining Wrath]

Yeah, I guess they are lucky to have Serini to guide them. Disenchanters plus Rust Monster = no one left functionally equipped.

Google search does not return a monster called a Blue Poet. Is this the secret identify of MitD?

[Leriel]

Whoa, what about the modrons with Team Evil? Do you think the wall of force could handle these obstacles?

[Metastachydium]

Xykon has at least two magic items, right? The boots and the ring?

The boots are mostly quality of unlife for him, though.

[The MunchKING]

Yeah, I guess they are lucky to have Serini to guide them. Disenchanters plus Rust Monster = no one left functionally equipped.

Depends on how well you can smack them, doesn't it? I thought they had to take an action to destroy your stuff.

[The MunchKING]

Whoa, what about the modrons with Team Evil? Do you think the wall of force could handle these obstacles?

Does a Disenchanter kill Wall of Force? I don't know how they work.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Whoa, what about the modrons with Team Evil? Do you think the wall of force could handle these obstacles?

I don't think the contract with the modrons covers the final dungeon?

GW

[FireJustice]

I give her A for effort.
Also A for strucutre of the encounter.

"big obvious threat that is in suspended animation".
then Slam! walls close suddenly.
then Iniciative! Mage's Disjunction (as I imagine the disenchanters do + all your metal becomes rust.
and then the "statue" comes alive from behind.

But A for effort. Sure a Fighter warrior depends on their gear. A wizard? not so much, can make do with spells. Make it alive, even.
A lich or other "supermagical" beings is also borderline imune

Golens. Any Golens that are imune to most magic are THE BOMB agians a magic impaired party. Specially if you get some "homebrewd 3.0 with DR into the 40's"

Fumblebees I get it. She even explain what they do. Isnt much different than a Dex draining variant of stirges (who drain CON)
they are low CR for what they can do, what is appropriate as Serini has to min max her dungeon based on her resources

Bravo

[FireJustice]

Does a Disenchanter kill Wall of Force? I don't know how they work.

"The disenchanter's namesake ability allowed them to leech the dweomer of any magic item touched by its snout, rendering the tapped object fully intact but magically inert. This ability could also be used to absorb tangible spell effects"
Source: (1981). Fiend Folio. (TSR Hobbies), (1995) Pages from the Mages (TSR), (1996). Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three (WotC) .

[Crusher]

Whoa, what about the modrons with Team Evil? Do you think the wall of force could handle these obstacles?

Yeah, Wall of Force at will shuts down a LOT of threats. I have no idea how it'd interact with the Disenchanters, though.

Turns out, Fumblebees are indeed a thing, https://koboldpress.com/fumblebee-swarm/

Edit - I like how if you Google "Blue Poet game monster" the first link (for me, anyway) is to this thread.

[Metastachydium]

Depends on how well you can smack them, doesn't it? I thought they had to take an action to destroy your stuff.


Does a Disenchanter kill Wall of Force? I don't know how they work.

It takes a Disenchanter a full round to drain an ability/stuff from an item, and it can only interact with magic items in this way. Spells and SLAs should work fine.

[Lord Torath]

Blue Poet is probably for neutralizing bards. "Want to trade racy poems? Sit for a bit - I've only got a few thousand of them!"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Blue Poet is probably for neutralizing bards. "Want to trade racy poems? Sit for a bit - I've only got a few thousand of them!"

Not "sit fot a bit". Obviously it must be "lend me your ear".

And if something untoward happens, they never give it back.

GW

[Lord Torath]

Well played.

Yes, obviously, if they have too many ears!

[Crusher]

Not "sit fot a bit". Obviously it must be "lend me your ear".

And if something untoward happens, they never give it back.

GW

Yeah, I tried looking for something with Shakespeare and Blue, but nothing substantive. Same with Julius Caesar and Marc Antony.

Edit - I suspect its just accidental noise around an off-hand joke rather than an actual easter egg.

[Finagle]

Where's the water source for this dungeon?

Is there a dung heap where they all poop, or what?

[Tzardok]

Where's the water source for this dungeon?

Is there a dung heap where they all poop, or what?

They are frozen in stasis, remember?

[Crusher]

I give her A for effort.
Also A for strucutre of the encounter.

"big obvious threat that is in suspended animation".
then Slam! walls close suddenly.
then Iniciative! Mage's Disjunction (as I imagine the disenchanters do + all your metal becomes rust.
and then the "statue" comes alive from behind.

But A for effort. Sure a Fighter warrior depends on their gear. A wizard? not so much, can make do with spells. Make it alive, even.
A lich or other "supermagical" beings is also borderline imune

Golens. Any Golens that are imune to most magic are THE BOMB agians a magic impaired party. Specially if you get some "homebrewd 3.0 with DR into the 40's"

Fumblebees I get it. She even explain what they do. Isnt much different than a Dex draining variant of stirges (who drain CON)
they are low CR for what they can do, what is appropriate as Serini has to min max her dungeon based on her resources

Bravo

And as a fun, synergistic bonus, Fumblebees secret a slimy, slippery substance causing the effect of a Grease spell. The swarm itself is immune, since they're flying, and requires a Reflex save to avoid which the DEX-damage makes progressively harder.

[ShurikVch]

Plus They're Not Even Blue
I know why they may be called "Blue ...": (by the dictionary.com), some of definitions of "blue (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/blue)" are

depressed, moody, or unhappy

dismal or depressing: a blue day

[Hardcore]

I am beginning to suspect this whole scene is a distraction. Are we really going to see team evil go the same route, encounter the same creatures?

I expect red cloak tire of the search and be creative. Maybe earthquake and summoning earth elementals clear the rubble?

[Gwynfrid]

I love how this comic combines a hilarious riff on old-school dungeon design with a perfect excuse for Rich to draw a collection of the weirdest monsters in D&D lore :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

Mein Gött, she's a Dungeon Master! She's too dangerous to be left alive! Yes. Scary!
This takes me back to the idea that the Scribblers were AD&D 1e in origin, but that's not worth pursuing further.

Now this is a dungeon Gygax would be proud of! He'd be taking notes for his Tomb of Horrors sequel, I guess.

I don't think the contract with the modrons covers the final dungeon? GW Good catch. I think you are correct, off hand, but now I have to go and check.

"The disenchanter's namesake ability allowed them to leech the dweomer of any magic item touched by its snout, rendering the tapped object fully intact but magically inert. This ability could also be used to absorb tangible spell effects"
Source: (1981). Fiend Folio. (TSR Hobbies), (1995) Pages from the Mages (TSR), (1996). Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three (WotC) . One of many monsters in the fiend folio that I didn't care for.

[Edward15]

They better hope that Team Evil isn't scrying on them right now. One way or another, they're going to barrel through all those obstacles.

Also, I can't help but think that eventually, Seirini is going to end up being smacked by her own stick.

[Moak]

My initial guess is a Froghemoth (sic).

Edit - Some quick searching confirms it. CR13, so not a major powerhouse but decently tough, particularly if everyone is sans equipment and DEX-drained. Also, in a major surprise, I spelled it correctly.

Well... if she's using the D&D 3.5 rules for Disenchanters, from Fiend Folio, they are CR 17. 6 of them means... CR19? I don't remember the CR calculation rules too well. So... not too shabby.

[MReav]

Roy still hasn't learned his lesson from the 3 Xykons: The ball is not under the cups, it's in the con man's hand.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They better hope that Team Evil isn't scrying on them right now.

I believe you can't scry through the material the walls are made with? Wasn't that established earlier?


I am beginning to suspect this whole scene is a distraction. Are we really going to see team evil go the same route, encounter the same creatures?
Oh, it gets worse: like Elan will tell you, now that we know the plan, it cannot possibly work. The only way these defences could possibly be effective is if they skipped past them off-panel.

GW

[warmachine]

Blue Poet sounds like some reality breaking horror out of SCP.

[b_jonas]

Edit - I like how if you Google "Blue Poet game monster" the first link (for me, anyway) is to this thread. Try again a day from now. You'll find a dozen different fan-made statblocks and fanart for it on different gaming sites, all inspired by this strip.

[Resileaf]

I don't think the contract with the modrons covers the final dungeon?

GW

It most likely does, because Redcloak worded it that they would search every passage until he found what he was looking for. The final dungeon is as such part of the passages and needs to be explored as well.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I think the 3.x version is larger, has no trunk and uses its tail club and… Tongue, I believe? (Looks like Serini wasn't told they are using psionics either, though; otherwise there'd be Folugubs as well.)

The rust monster is a Paragon, it can rust crystals just as well as regular metal. I mean, if it can eat gold and steel, there's no reason diamond wouldn't be included.

I like the escalation here. Regular monster (froghemoth) into unfair monsters (disenchanter) into unfair templated monsters (rust monster) into homebrew monsters that we still know something about (the Fumblebees drain Dex) into purely non-existent monsters that we don't even bother describing mechanically (the dreaded Blue Poet).

Next room is a Window. It's dozens of fingers coming out of tiny holes in reality and trying to touch opponents, at which point they detach and change into worms with a single eye/mouth that also serve as a tiny portal transferring blood from the target to the main body of the Window (which is on the Ethereal Plane protected by a permanent Resilient Sphere and looks like a ball of barbed spikes that automatically grappled anything touching them), dealing 1 point of Str, Dex and Con damage per round and per worm until a Remove Disease spell is cast by a caster of at least 18th level on the target. The body of a creature reaching 0 Str, Dex or Con is completely absorbed by the Window and can't be resurrected unless by Wish followed by True Resurrection, with the exception of its fingers, which become new worms attached to reality holes and can, like the other fingers, retract into their own portal to reappear elsewhere (treat like Dimension Door).
What eldritch monster with a deceptively mundane name should be in room 3?

[Metastachydium]

I expect red cloak tire of the search and be creative. Maybe earthquake and summoning earth elementals clear the rubble?

Like he'd ever use Earth Elementals! My guess is he'd go full Polonium (https://mountaincomics.com/comic/mt1207/).


Well... if she's using the D&D 3.5 rules for Disenchanters, from Fiend Folio, they are CR 17. 6 of them means... CR19? I don't remember the CR calculation rules too well. So... not too shabby.

She probably doesn't. Like I said, those don't look anything like this.


I believe you can't scry through the material the walls are made with? Wasn't that established earlier?

It's "multidimensional". All we know is that it blocks Teleportation stuff and Ghostform.


Oh, it gets worse: like Elan will tell you, now that we know the plan, it cannot possibly work. The only way these defences could possibly be effective is if they skipped past them off-panel.

GW

So, what you're saying is that the Knee-Stealer will steal Xykon's knee? We never learned anything about the Knee-Stealer.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Well... if she's using the D&D 3.5 rules for Disenchanters, from Fiend Folio, they are CR 17. 6 of them means... CR19? I don't remember the CR calculation rules too well. So... not too shabby.

I think twice the monsters is CR+2 and three times the monsters are CR+3, so 6 times the monsters would be CR+5, or CR 22. Really strong encounter.


So, what you're saying is that the Knee-Stealer will steal Xykon's knee? We never learned anything about the Knee-Stealer.

Yes. What else would the Knee-Stealer do? The problem is it replaces it with a baby Knee-Stealer (also known as Bonetrash) which makes its way up the leg to the heart, eating the bones, then explodes as a fully grown Knee-Stealer in 2 rounds.

[hamishspence]

The rust monster is a Paragon, it can rust crystals just as well as regular metal. I mean, if it can eat gold and steel, there's no reason diamond wouldn't be included.

They can't "rust stone" (or wood) - diamond is a kind of stone:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rustMonster.htm

And the paragon template doesn't make a difference to that:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm

[ZhonLord]

I gotta say, Serini may be out of date when it comes to trap design, but trap CONTENTS on the other hand she's still A+ on. Grimtooth would be proud of the combination gear wrecking and the fake "first encounter". By the time the party gets to the big guy for second encounter he's going to have an easy time hitting everyone, and the rogues and rangers have lost their offense potential. Primary spellcasters like wizards and sorcerers may be okay, but even they're going to suffer from a Dex drain.

The blue poet sounds anti-charisma, with the seven ears, so there goes bards and potentially a weakened sorcerer as well. The knee-stealers are presumably small creatures that are fast and hard to hit, so they can make good reflex saves against AOE spells. Either way Encounter #3 is anti-caster.

Three encounters in and Serini has already targeted and attempted to neutralize 80% of the strengths most parties will bring to bear. It's really quite brilliant!

[Metastachydium]

Three encounters in and Serini has already targeted and attempted to neutralize 80% of the strengths most parties will bring to bear. It's really quite brilliant!

Which makes the cheerful happy illusion an actually sensible idea, in fact. It presents the dungeon as an exciting theme park ride, when it's really Tomb of Horrors, but Now We're Serious About Being Jerks.

[Dellmarcus]

I think it's an excellent bit of whimsy that this dungeon is so esoteric the Giant is just making up monsters.

Yup, this is just Rich having fun with the expectations of most D+D players. If any DM ran a dungeon like this, their players would revolt...this is SO unfair. ;)

That said, I'm totally in on this, I love this idea.

[TurboGhast]

Xykon has at least two magic items, right? The boots and the ring?

We also know that he’s immune to fire damage due to a magic item, so if that breaks and he forgets about it in the heat of combat he might strike himself with a Meteor Swarm.

[Shining Wrath]

We need a separate thread wherein we will crowdimagine the Blue Poet and generate a set of stats.
Bonus points if the result satisfies all the Big Scenes for Monster in the Darkness and we can propose the Blue Poet as a candidate. :smallbiggrin:

[Tubercular Ox]

I would like to be the first to resurrect the argument about Serini poaching Dorukan's monsters, since 2nd edition had different opinions about what was fair compared to 3rd edition.


The best part is seeing that none of the especulations made by the other forum members since "Change of Scenery" been confirmed. Mr. Burlew knows his public. Bonus points for the "blue poet" thing.

I said out loud that my favorite response to the last comic would be a tiny jump forward to the next plot point, with no continuity panel connecting the last strip, and everyone acting as if it never happened just like Minrah predicted. Does that count?

Edit: I think the Blue Poet is actually a kind of monk. Everyone knows the story of Seven Ears in Tibet.

[Chei]

Serini's covering the layout of the dungeon with extreme specificity now, so she definitely had something besides a memory lapse in mind when she had Haley check the door for traps, I think.

[ZhonLord]

I would like to be the first to resurrect the argument about Serini poaching Dorukan's monsters, since 2nd edition had different opinions about what was fair compared to 3rd edition

What do you mean "argument"? We have literal evidence that she was recruiting monsters before Dorukan could notice their presence. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1270.html)

[H_H_F_F]

Excellent strip. Very fun. I'd also like to see a 3.5 dungeon module for the final dungeon one day.

Seems like there's no time-travel shenanigans, though. Just the same designer, I guess.

[kenlund]

Will any of this impact the guy that Redcloak summoned using the Gate spell? Doesn't seem like it. Unless they get a surprise round in before he can setup forcewalls.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think the Blue Poet is actually a kind of monk. Everyone knows the story of Seven Ears in Tibet. Golf clap. :smallcool:

[SpykeMH]

Since Mimi still has feet after transforming would this technically make her a "step" ladder?

[KorvinStarmast]

Since Mimi still has feet after transforming would this technically make her a "step" ladder? Taller than a foot stool, so yes.

[remetagross]

All this is really clever. But I have no doubt Team Evil will barely slow down when faced with 6 CR 3 monsters !

And yes, what about that Dorukan design? We want to learn more ! :)

[b_jonas]

So… while confronting Team Evil, the Order (and Team Evil as well) will get attacked by the rust monsters and disenchanters. Roy's Greenhilt sword will lose its pluses and get totally rusted. Roy will then discover the final ability of the Sword as a legacy weapon, which restores the sword to its original condition.


Roy still hasn't learned his lesson from the 3 Xykons: The ball is not under the cups, it's in the con man's hand. Choosing one of the doors is the lawful thing to do, as Haley explains in #428. The Deva warned Roy that he may be excluded from his preferred afterlife because he's behaving insufficiently lawful. Roy took the warning very seriously, and is now trying to behave very lawful.

[King of Nowhere]

the problem with such a dungeon is that it will be bypassed by anyone with a good search/spot

[gatemansgc]

OK, I know disenchanters and rust monsters are real exist in d&d, and I know paragon is a template, but how many of the others are actually stat'ed? The bees? Is the Blue poet a blue, with a weird prestige class?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

yeah i came to this forum with the exact same questions!

[Errorname]

Damn Serini, this is a brutal setup. That first encounter is particularly cruel.


the problem with such a dungeon is that it will be bypassed by anyone with a good search/spot

The perils of having a bypass, but as this strip demonstrates it's probably necessary. The actual skip technique seems like it'd be difficult to figure out in time before you accidentally started an encounter.

[CountDVB]

Nice comic - Team Evil doesn't seem to overly rely overly on equipment so might not be that much of an issue for them however.



I don't think that fumblebees actually exist but mechanically giant wasps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giantWasp.htm) could mess with dexterity (likely too weak for Serini's needs), Blue Poet I have even less - drawing a complete blank on the seven ears for a DnD creature (maybe a reference to having an ear for music?).

Actually, Xykon does make alot of magic items and we know he has his Boots of Free Movement, a ring that protects from positive energy, another from fire and I think a couple others.

Him no longer being protected from Positive Energy would screw him over big time.

Also, I love the idea of fumblebees.

[SerenaRaeyld]

We need a separate thread wherein we will crowdimagine the Blue Poet and generate a set of stats.
Bonus points if the result satisfies all the Big Scenes for Monster in the Darkness and we can propose the Blue Poet as a candidate. :smallbiggrin:

It's probably not the intended direction, but when I first read "Blue poets," I immediately thought instead of some infamous yellow poets: Vogons.


Vogon poetry is a variety of poetry, often considered to be one of the worst. It is sometimes used by the Vogons as a torture method, as it causes physical pain to the hearer. A notable example of this was when they tortured Ford Prefect and Arthur Dent after the Dentrassis let them hitchhike onto the ship.

[Yirggzmb]

Oh, it gets worse: like Elan will tell you, now that we know the plan, it cannot possibly work. The only way these defences could possibly be effective is if they skipped past them off-panel.

My gut is that this page is to show us that, when Serini says "unfair", she really means unfair. It sets the understanding that the whole dungeon is probably like this. Now the specifics can start being skipped over unless it actually affects the Order.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if we cut away to team evil sometime soon, and then when we cut back to the Order they'll have gotten through most of the dungeon off panel

[InvisibleBison]

the problem with such a dungeon is that it will be bypassed by anyone with a good search/spot

Not necessarily. For example, a sufficiently high search or spot check would reveal the existence of the secret hatch, but it wouldn't tell you that taking the hatch is the correct path and the two doors are dangerous dead ends.

[Errorname]

Not necessarily. For example, a sufficiently high search or spot check would reveal the existence of the secret hatch, but it wouldn't tell you that taking the hatch is the correct path and the two doors are dangerous dead ends.

Also if Serini's smart she's designed and placed the trap disarm such that it's function is non-obvious.

[littlebum2002]

I know why they may be called "Blue ...": (by the dictionary.com), some of definitions of "blue (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/blue)" are

I was thinking more like


7a: PROFANE, INDECENT
a blue movie
b: OFF-COLOR, RISQUÉ
blue jokes

[drazen]

Aside - the next strip after this one will be the 100th of the final book (well, before any bonus strips in the eventual print compendium). Although I'm not sure how it affects story pacing when the author once said this one could be as thick as a phone book.

Seems like a party with a trapfinding rogue wouldn't have too much trouble and then they'd just find a bunch of stasis monsters though. I get that it was because Lirian wouldn't play ball, but all that unfairness seems largely wasted if a party could easily bypass most of it. 🤷

[dtilque]

It's probably not the intended direction, but when I first read "Blue poets," I immediately thought instead of some infamous yellow poets: Vogons.

Indeed. I think it's clear that those doors lead to a Douglas Adams-designed dungeon:

Blue poet = Vogon
Knee-stealers = kneebiters

Anyone want to do that crawl?

[nleseul]

What eldritch monster with a deceptively mundane name should be in room 3?

There is a certain classic RPG in which the final boss is the dreaded Floor (https://ultima.fandom.com/wiki/Floor)...

[tyckspoon]

Serini's covering the layout of the dungeon with extreme specificity now, so she definitely had something besides a memory lapse in mind when she had Haley check the door for traps, I think.

Checking the difficulty to locate the various traps/event triggers against the capability of a known high-level character, possibly? If Serini knows there is in fact a trap there (but it's harmless/triggered in a fashion that the Order won't set off) she can have Haley look for it, and whether or not Haley can find it + potentially disable it will tell Serini a lot about if she needs to be concerned that somebody will be able to bypass parts of the Really Final Dungeon. If not, then even a high-level party with a traps specialist will probably miss a lot of the alternate routes and get stuck running into the encounters as intended.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I imagine that there is a third door connecting the rooms, so that the more linear minded invader will end up doing one room, then the other, then be right back where they started.

Anyone else interested in what the "Knee-Stealers" are? My guess is something that hijacks your knees, then a mouth appears on the knees are starts attacking your friends.


Serious question: would the right amount of ears be zero? :smallsmile:Four, enough to triangulate the exact position and distance a sound is coming from; although, ideally you'd may want some extras so you don't have to depend on using ears on the wrong side of the body, so seven isn't a ridiculous number for a blind creature.

I'm definitely imagining it presents what the SCP people call an "infohazard", that once you're within communication range you're in danger.

It's "poems" don't contain recognizable words, but the intention is somehow clear to all. One poem causes such revulsion that it's victim (con save) goes into a fit of uncontrolled vomiting. Another causes it's victim (will save) abject despair. A third travels through the ground and causes ones to vibrate and shatter (reflex save), but you must have hearing to be able to tell if it's coming to dodge.

[Metastachydium]

Anyone else interested in what the "Knee-Stealers" are? My guess is something that hijacks your knees, then a mouth appears on the knees are starts attacking your friends.

Obviously, they are Knights Who Say Knee. And then rob you.

[SavageWombat]

We need a quick statement from Rich about whether he intends to create writeups for these things (probably not) so that the forum can get to work.

[SavageWombat]

I am beginning to suspect this whole scene is a distraction. Are we really going to see team evil go the same route, encounter the same creatures?

I expect red cloak tire of the search and be creative. Maybe earthquake and summoning earth elementals clear the rubble?

I think you might be right here. If Rich wants to say something about the folly of dungeon design, this would be the place to do it.

[Resileaf]

the problem with such a dungeon is that it will be bypassed by anyone with a good search/spot

Maybe it's a problem, but it's not an easy problem to solve. Serini did not make a secret passage that passes through the entire dungeon, she has separate ones for every encounter. Means that if your rogue is good enough to find the secret passage for one encounter, you don't get to bypass the entire dungeon, you have to find each individual one (and the second secret passage is on the ceiling, how many rogues do you know search the ceiling?). Plus Serini previously stated that some encounters are designed that if a rogue tries to disarm it, it instead activates the trap and the monsters. This is as safe as a dungeon can be.

[Unkillable_Cat]

Very interesting comic, this one.

I want to bring this up, just to (hopefully) rule it out - but is it possible that Sunny is mis-reporting the number of ears on the Blue Poets, due to having so many eyes?

Like pointing too many cameras at the same thing, yet seeing all the camera feeds on the same screen?

Just a random thought.

[Sir_Norbert]

Aside - the next strip after this one will be the 100th of the final book (well, before any bonus strips in the eventual print compendium). Although I'm not sure how it affects story pacing when the author once said this one could be as thick as a phone book.

It means nothing.

The exact quote (here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?298039-How-many-more-books&p=15827621#post15827621)) is "It'll be seven, even if the last one looks like a phone book."

"It'll be seven" is the important part of that and Rich is just saying "even if it grows in the telling a bit, I'm not splitting it into more books." This does not imply that he actually thinks it will grow, or that the last book will be especially long. It may not even be the longest of the seven. It may not be above the average. The quote gives us no information about the expected length.

[Elanfanforlife]

For some reason, I got pinged on the Discord because a new comic was up, and the discussion thread already existed, but I wasn't able to access the comic. When I went to 1288, I just got the "the author doesn't post comics ahead of time page" and I had to visit the MitD thread before the comic finally showed up.

[gbaji]

As to the question of whether the Modron will accompany them into the Final Dungeon, I'm leaning towards "no" (but it's not absolutely clear). Here's what the instuctions were:

Redcloak: "I would like you to accompany us while we search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon, and assist us in restraining all hostile creatures we encounter within"

Modron: "What is the object of your search"

Redcloak: "You don't need to know that. All that matters is we want to search every corridor as quickly as possible until we find it, or we've checked them all."

Redcloak: "Also, I want you to keep a mental record of which doors we've entered and in what order, and the physical dimensions and orientation of every room we visit."


It's entirely possible that the Modron will interpret this as searching only the dungeons beyond the doors in the canyon (what was literally said). It might also interpret the portal into the Final Dungeon as the "object of your search". This might seem flimsy maybe, except that Redcloak actualy said "search every corridor ... until we find it". Redcloak actually allowed himself to be trapped a bit by the Modron's question. Had he just said "we want to search everything that exists beyond all of these doors", the Modron would likely be compelled to continue through the portal. But by saying "until we find it", Redcloak is accepting that the terms include a search for "it", and the Modron's task ends when "it" is found.

If the portal to the Final Dungeon operated more like the crossovers, I think the Modron would just continue as normal (he's going through all the others, without note). But since it literaly pops up a portal and a magic announcement to the party telling them they have found what they seek, and it lies beyond the portal, and walking through the portal clearly requires an action beyond simply exploring the corridors behind the doors, I think the Modron will declare "You've found the object of your search. The terms are complete". And then skedaddle.

As to the Final Dungeon itself. Yeah. Can you say "brutal dungeon" (and is it sad that I've actually built and run a dungeon similar to this? Ok. Absent the disenchanters and the rust monster though). I will point out that TE will have difficulty since they don't seem to have much in the way of rogue abilities in their group, so very likely they will hit every single activated thing along the way. On the flip side, they have a massive amount of spell power and should be able to just blast through this. Yeah, disenchanters are nasty, but so are empowered fireballs and meteor swarms. Not sure how many hit dice the disenchanters have, but a lot of this stuff will just die before it can even get into melee range with TE. The first hallway, at least, seems mostly aimed at well equipped melee characters (and would be brutal against them). Against, primary spell casters? Not so much.

A traditional party, with fighters up front, and spell casters in the rear, this is brutal. TE's very ununsual makeup kinda makes them less vulnerable to it though. At worse, maybe they lose a minor item here or there maybe. It'll be an annoyance, and probably force them to blow a few spells though.

[LuPuWei]

Xykon has at least two magic items, right? The boots and the ring?

What about the phylactery? And also Redcloak's... cloak? Do those count? And would Xykon himself count as an enchanted object?

[ShurikVch]

I was thinking more like
Are those variants mutually exclusive?..

[Tzardok]

What about the phylactery? And also Redcloak's... cloak? Do those count? And would Xykon himself count as an enchanted object?

Xykon doesn't. You can't disenchant a creature like that. The Crimson Mantle is an artifact and therefore immune to any disenchanting effect lower than Disjunction. The phylactery, on the other hand, would probably be in danger.

[Metastachydium]

What about the phylactery?

We don't know where it is and Disenchanters explicitly target jewellery last.


And also Redcloak's... cloak?

Artifact. I'm ready to say that those are above the Disenchanters' pay grade.


And would Xykon himself count as an enchanted object?

Mych to my chagrin, Undead and even Constructs are considered creatures, rather than objects.


A traditional party, with fighters up front, and spell casters in the rear, this is brutal. TE's very ununsual makeup kinda makes them less vulnerable to it though. At worse, maybe they lose a minor item here or there maybe. It'll be an annoyance, and probably force them to blow a few spells though.

Except if they'll just send the Monster in first to spring all traps. I wouldn't put it past them and it would be brutally effective.

[Ruck]

Where's the water source for this dungeon?

Is there a dung heap where they all poop, or what?


They are frozen in stasis, remember?

Indeed, even the poop question has been asked and answered (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1279.html).


There is a certain classic RPG in which the final boss is the dreaded Floor (https://ultima.fandom.com/wiki/Floor)...

Wow, that's quite the pull. That was the first Ultima game I played (largely because it was the first one ported to NES).

[Psychronia]

You don't **** with Blue Poets.

Though if I had to choose between those and Green Bartenders...

[Quizatzhaderac]

the problem with such a dungeon is that it will be bypassed by anyone with a good search/spotThere could be any number of "false" secret passages, and triggers. The dungeon is only trivial if you use the right one. Tyring every secret apssage ond hidden switch might be more trouble than the regular dungeon.

[Coppercloud]

When I went to 1288, I just got the "the author doesn't post comics ahead of time page"
I had no idea this page existed! That's a nice easter egg.

[MoiMagnus]

Since we're told how the traps are supposed to work, chances are the traps will not work as expected.

They could simply bruteforce it. But my guess is that V is the weakness here, since they are spied continuously by the infernals, and they will use this information to interfere in some way.

[nleseul]

Looking back through some of the recent strips, and something occurs to me.

If that swarm of Fumblebees were ever to be released at an inopportune time, it might be valuable to have an experienced beekeeper (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1268.html) around.

[brian 333]

ETA: any idea what the three-eyed tentacled monster of encounter 2 might actually be?

GW

I thought it was an otyugh, or perhaps a neo-otyugh


Since Mimi still has feet after transforming would this technically make her a "step" ladder?

Not sure how they are getting up to the ceiling on a two-foot ladder.

[Boo600]

Ok, can we focus on the Rust Monster for two seconds here? I don’t want to distract anyone, but…

I’ll admit, going from CR 3 to 18 normally doesn’t go so well for templates creatures, but the Rust Monster might make it, because Paragon. Now, I know that it seems like it can’t do much beyond nobble Oona’s axes, since Team Evil isn’t wearing armor - and it would die pretty quickly, even going from 27 HP to 105.

But.

Normal rust monsters have an Int of 3, and a Wis of 13. This thing has Paragon, which gives it +15 to all Ability stats.

Forget about the Dex boost. This thing is 17 Int (near peak Human Int) and 28 Wisdom. And I doubt Serini picked a monster that’d run away - it’s going to attack, its Utility Function of “Eat Metal” will be its driving goal, and it’s going to win.

Fire Resistance 10 and Damage Reduction 10/Epic will stack; even Xykon will be blunted a bit, before its spell resistance (28 or 43, depending on how you Calc it) catches anything complex, and its Fast Healing 20 means it’ll last a couple rounds. (It will go for Xykon’s crown, and in a way that leaves it alive).

It knows Haste, and Dispel Magic, at CL 15. 90 seconds of double attacks, which it will cast - and it can cut through their buffs and dispel low-level summons.

It’s not going to pinball them, but with all those Insight and Armor class bonuses, and that high Dex for AoE spells, its going to charge in there like a guided missile, eat Xykon’s hat, and GTFO, alive.

Just imagine what that will do to Xykon’s ego.

[St Fan]

Seeing all these speculation about the "Blue Poet" reminds me of the Poetic Fiend, a recurring character from the GrailQuest series.

A nigh-invincible vampire whom you can only bypass by complimenting his gods-awful poetry...

[gbaji]

Except if they'll just send the Monster in first to spring all traps. I wouldn't put it past them and it would be brutally effective.

And how many rounds do they spend trying to convice MitD to go up in front and attack stuff?

Assuming the sequence is:

1. They walk in, walls close behind them and the first monster starts attacking.
2. Walls open up and disgorge the disenchanters and rust monster
3. Now they are engaged with one big monster, and a bunch of smaller ones running up and draining their magic items, eating their non-magic stuff, and attacking as well (Rust monsters are no slouch in the damage department either).

4.... It's unclear when/if the monster at the end of the hall activates. But probably right about... now.

The only question is how quickly Xykon and Redcloack react to the additional monsters in step 2 showing up. If they see them coming and blast them at range, then it wont be too much trouble. But if the disenchanters and the rust monster can get into melee range before those two can react, then it's going to be messy. AE attacks become problematic, and they've got a lot of opponents beating on them. Again, they're not fighter types, who are pretty heavily dependent on magic gear, so it's not as horrible seeming, and they have a powerful cleric, so they'll almost certainly survive the encounter, but it will likely take a fair amount of spell power to deal with.

Which actually brings up a major weakness of TE. They're very very powerful while they have spells. When they start to run out, things will get dicey. This dungeon doesn't have to kill them. It just has to really drain their magical resources, so when they face the Order at the end, they'll have some serious problems.

At least, if the tactical situation goes to plan. This is the Order of the Stick though, so I fully expect something random and unexpected will occur.

[137beth]

I love the descriptions of the defenses we're bypassing.

[danielxcutter]

Ok, can we focus on the Rust Monster for two seconds here? I don’t want to distract anyone, but…

I’ll admit, going from CR 3 to 18 normally doesn’t go so well for templates creatures, but the Rust Monster might make it, because Paragon. Now, I know that it seems like it can’t do much beyond nobble Oona’s axes, since Team Evil isn’t wearing armor - and it would die pretty quickly, even going from 27 HP to 105.

But.

Normal rust monsters have an Int of 3, and a Wis of 13. This thing has Paragon, which gives it +15 to all Ability stats.

Forget about the Dex boost. This thing is 17 Int (near peak Human Int) and 28 Wisdom. And I doubt Serini picked a monster that’d run away - it’s going to attack, its Utility Function of “Eat Metal” will be its driving goal, and it’s going to win.

Fire Resistance 10 and Damage Reduction 10/Epic will stack; even Xykon will be blunted a bit, before its spell resistance (28 or 43, depending on how you Calc it) catches anything complex, and its Fast Healing 20 means it’ll last a couple rounds. (It will go for Xykon’s crown, and in a way that leaves it alive).

It knows Haste, and Dispel Magic, at CL 15. 90 seconds of double attacks, which it will cast - and it can cut through their buffs and dispel low-level summons.

It’s not going to pinball them, but with all those Insight and Armor class bonuses, and that high Dex for AoE spells, its going to charge in there like a guided missile, eat Xykon’s hat, and GTFO, alive.

Just imagine what that will do to Xykon’s ego.

Nitpick: Haste isn’t double attacks in 3.x, and isn’t an extra standard action in 3.5e. But yeah, this would have been a nightmare for most parties… though Team Evil has a large proportion of itemless monsters currently and in general doesn’t rely that much on magic armor and weapons, so this is probably going to be even less of a speedbump than something like half a dozen planetars or whatever.

[Tubercular Ox]

how many rogues do you know search the ceiling?

All of them. It's the main reason we carry lots of poles.

[pendell]

On the topic of disenchanting magic items.


Back in Start of Darkness we saw that Xykon had a ring of protection against positive energy, which was a plot point. He had prepared it in case of an assassination attempt by disgruntled minions, and this was 1000% a good call on his part.

It would be a nice call back if that specific item could be disabled and provide an opportunity for someone to inflict damage on him.



More generally, if I recall from the occupation of Azure City bored Xykon devoted several hours a day to nothing but crafting magic items, then spent the rest of his time watching whatever entertainment Tsukiko could come up with. I have to wonder how many of those magic items he is wearing now. For instance, back when Roy fought him the first time Xykon cast still meteor swarm and taunted Roy with the fact he was wearing a magic item specifically to guard against his own meteor swarm damage. I don't know just what all he's wearing but if even some of those could be disenchanted that might create an opportunity our heroes can exploit. A lich isn't an easy enemy to beat even when carrying nothing, and Xykon may very well be carrying a planet's worth of magic items on his person. As discussed here and in the spoiiler, we know of at least two.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Zancloufer]

Ok, can we focus on the Rust Monster for two seconds here? I don’t want to distract anyone, but…

I’ll admit, going from CR 3 to 18 normally doesn’t go so well for templates creatures, but the Rust Monster might make it, because Paragon. Now, I know that it seems like it can’t do much beyond nobble Oona’s axes, since Team Evil isn’t wearing armor - and it would die pretty quickly, even going from 27 HP to 105.

But.

Normal rust monsters have an Int of 3, and a Wis of 13. This thing has Paragon, which gives it +15 to all Ability stats.

Forget about the Dex boost. This thing is 17 Int (near peak Human Int) and 28 Wisdom. And I doubt Serini picked a monster that’d run away - it’s going to attack, its Utility Function of “Eat Metal” will be its driving goal, and it’s going to win.

Fire Resistance 10 and Damage Reduction 10/Epic will stack; even Xykon will be blunted a bit, before its spell resistance (28 or 43, depending on how you Calc it) catches anything complex, and its Fast Healing 20 means it’ll last a couple rounds. (It will go for Xykon’s crown, and in a way that leaves it alive).

It knows Haste, and Dispel Magic, at CL 15. 90 seconds of double attacks, which it will cast - and it can cut through their buffs and dispel low-level summons.

It’s not going to pinball them, but with all those Insight and Armor class bonuses, and that high Dex for AoE spells, its going to charge in there like a guided missile, eat Xykon’s hat, and GTFO, alive.

Just imagine what that will do to Xykon’s ego.

I also was [morbidly] curious what a Paragon Rust Monster would be, so behold;


Size/Type: Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 5d8+105 (145 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 120 ft. (24 squares)
Armor Class: 50 (+11 Dex, +5 natural, +12 insight, +12 luck), touch 45, flat-footed 45
Base Attack/Grapple: +36/+11
Attack: Antennae touch +36 melee (rust)
Full Attack: Antennae touch +36 melee (rust) and bite +31 melee (1d3+28)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Rust [DC 38 Fort Save]. SLAs [CL 15] Greater Dispel Magic 3/day, Haste 3/day, See Invisible 3/day
Special Qualities: Darkvision, scent, DR 10 Fire+Cold, DR 10/epic, SR 43, Fast Healing 20
Saves: Fort +20, Ref +22, Will +23
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 32, Con 28, Int 17, Wis 28, Cha 23
Skills: Listen +25, Spot +25
Feats: Alertness, Track,
Challenge Rating: 18
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6-8 HD (Medium); 9-15 HD (Large)

It's AC and SR mean it's almost immune to anything other than Xylon and maybe MiTD could throw at it. Heck even Xylon depending on his level and how much he invested into counter SR might get walled by it outside of SR:No save or Loose spells. 50 AC is makes it almost impossible to touch for spell casters. Not to mention with Haste and 120 base speed the thing moves like car doing city driving. Not to mention rust; metal magic items have to make a DC 38 FORT save or get dusted. Finally they are also fending off a hoard of CR 17 monsters than eat magic items by abusing an insane grapple check.

Totally doable by an epic caster, if they prep and play it smart. Mostly just throw minions at it or abuse mundane AoE effects.

[ElliotO]

I thought it was an otyugh, or perhaps a neo-otyugh

Froghemoth. I'll delete this if someone else already pointed it out.

[ratfox]

What eldritch monster with a deceptively mundane name should be in room 3?

A gazebo! :smallbiggrin:

[Eireannx]

Am I the only one who assumed the Blue Poet was a pub?

Obviously either a common pub name, or some kind of chain, so that 'a' Blue Poet would make sense.

[danielxcutter]

On the topic of disenchanting magic items.


Back in Start of Darkness we saw that Xykon had a ring of protection against positive energy, which was a plot point. He had prepared it in case of an assassination attempt by disgruntled minions, and this was 1000% a good call on his part.

It would be a nice call back if that specific item could be disabled and provide an opportunity for someone to inflict damage on him.



More generally, if I recall from the occupation of Azure City bored Xykon devoted several hours a day to nothing but crafting magic items, then spent the rest of his time watching whatever entertainment Tsukiko could come up with. I have to wonder how many of those magic items he is wearing now. For instance, back when Roy fought him the first time Xykon cast still meteor swarm and taunted Roy with the fact he was wearing a magic item specifically to guard against his own meteor swarm damage. I don't know just what all he's wearing but if even some of those could be disenchanted that might create an opportunity our heroes can exploit. A lich isn't an easy enemy to beat even when carrying nothing, and Xykon may very well be carrying a planet's worth of magic items on his person. As discussed here and in the spoiiler, we know of at least two.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Technically, I think it was Darth V who got the point-blank Meteor Swarm to the face because Xykon had the fire immunity item. Roy got the Meteor Swarm to the face because he chopped off the head of Xykon's dragon zombie, making it almost completely worthless due to the fact that Xykon could fly on his own power anyways.

[Boo600]

Honestly, I’m half convinced that Serini used the Paragon Rust Monster not because she couldn’t get fifty rust monsters to drop on people, but because she found a ***Paragon*** Rust Monster and just Needed to use it.

I mean, the Froghemoth looks incredibly cool, but I couldn’t find a 3.5 stat block for it available online, and 5e makes it seem like it’s mainly there as a grappler after the ‘bees Happen to people. The Disenchanters are cool and effective, but they’re really meant as an Effect that also tempts people like Xykon into killing them and wasting spells - ‘no more magic items for you!’

But that Rust Monster… that’s a tool of demoralization. Rust Monsters were always such, seeing as how they feasted directly upon the fighter’s bank account (even if you didn’t have magic items, they’d eat your armor, which was more expensive than potions). But at least the barbarian could hit them with a stick, or a rock, and you could get Vengeance. But *this* rust monster? Even if Team Evil isn’t badly harmed by it, it’s going to zoop right in there, eat Xykon’s hat, and zoop away, and there’s nothing he can do about it.

If the resulting scene is not shown to us, so that we may listen to Yakety Sax whilst eating popcorn, I shall be very sad.

Addendum: Under that cloak, Redcloak is wearing black armor (as he should, being a cleric), and his Holy Symbol is probably vulnerable to a Paragon Rust Monster, because Epic Natural Weapons (bypassing nonEpic protective spells, woot woot). That could render Xykon vulnerable to death *without even knowing he’s vulnerable*, or reveal Redcloak’s duplicity, splitting Team Evil prematurely. I mean, I doubt that the Giant will do so, instead of having the Plot take precedence, but it could happen.

But what I mean to say is:

That rust monster is going to zoop in, eat Oona’s weapon, Xykon’s hat, and Redcloak’s non-cloak clothing (armor, pants), and zoop off, and there’s nothing any of them can do about it. And I want to **see that**, ok?

[danielxcutter]

Honestly, I’m half convinced that Serini used the Paragon Rust Monster not because she couldn’t get fifty rust monsters to drop on people, but because she found a ***Paragon*** Rust Monster and just Needed to use it.

I mean, the Froghemoth looks incredibly cool, but I couldn’t find a 3.5 stat block for it available online, and 5e makes it seem like it’s mainly there as a grappler after the ‘bees Happen to people. The Disenchanters are cool and effective, but they’re really meant as an Effect that also tempts people like Xykon into killing them and wasting spells - ‘no more magic items for you!’

But that Rust Monster… that’s a tool of demoralization. Rust Monsters were always such, seeing as how they feasted directly upon the fighter’s bank account (even if you didn’t have magic items, they’d eat your armor, which was more expensive than potions). But at least the barbarian could hit them with a stick, or a rock, and you could get Vengeance. But *this* rust monster? Even if Team Evil isn’t badly harmed by it, it’s going to zoop right in there, eat Xykon’s hat, and zoop away, and there’s nothing he can do about it.

If the resulting scene is not shown to us, so that we may listen to Yakety Sax whilst eating popcorn, I shall be very sad.

I mean, normal rust monsters are like CR 2 or 3. It wouldn't be too hard to capture a good number of them with magic and/or specific preparation. The issue would be that fifty ordinary rust monsters would get deleted by any random AoE attack. Including the ones that wouldn't have much of an issue with friendly fire.

[Tubercular Ox]

I love how the word Paragon implies this is a status any rust monster could achieve if it'd just stop rusting weights and lift the stuff instead.

[danielxcutter]

I love how the word Paragon implies this is a status any rust monster could achieve if it'd just stop rusting weights and lift the stuff instead.

It's... not, actually. It's practically just an excuse to use weaker monster types despite the fact that even the martials probably count as WMDs at that level.

[Provengreil]

That is one heck of an opening salvo. I wonder, do the disenchanters suck the magic out of the tattoos as well? So if you need to retreat and regroup, you have to do the whole thing over again?

[Mic_128]

Looking back through some of the recent strips, and something occurs to me.

If that swarm of Fumblebees were ever to be released at an inopportune time, it might be valuable to have an experienced beekeeper (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1268.html) around.

YES! I was hoping that was the skill that'd save the day somehow :D

[Alex Warlorn]

Okay, this is worse than the Tomb of Horrors, isn't it? Because the Tomb was a tournament module; tough but fair. In this case, Serini isn't even trying to be fair; she just wants unauthorized visitors to be dead, permanently.

Rich? If you're reading this I demand a module once OOTS has completed its run. This is a very, very cool dungeon crawl you've got here even if we are getting the guided tour from Serini. I'm pretty sure these traps would have laid waste to the Order if they didn't have her along. I'm kind of interested to see what it does to Team Evil when they come through.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The Tomb? Fair? HA!

[danielxcutter]

The Tomb? Fair? HA!

I think it is still fairer than this.

[Alex Warlorn]

What are the Knee Stealers?

[Provengreil]

I think it is still fairer than this.

To the fighters maybe. But then, this opening trap would have invalidated the OG Tomb's purpose as an automated magic item farm.

So far though, I'm not seeing anything that would outright invalidate your character's entire ability suite based on a total guess, which the Tomb is rife with. The 3.5 update is more fair, but it's not for nothing that the original was compared to digging a mine shaft via suicide bombing.

Of course, the original also had the funniest cheat ever:
You're there for cash. The doors are solid adamantine 6 inches thick. Just steal the front door and go home, you win.

[Thecommander236]

"Blue Poet" is probably just a nod/reference to the trope of giving mundane-sounding names to eldritch abominations.

Colors, especially, tend to feature heavily on that naming scheme. like the King in Yellow for the original example.

More than likely, yeah. Google is usually pretty good of having real DND monster pages pop up.

[IthilanorStPete]

This dungeon reminds me of some of the nastier tricks the Theoretical Optimization folks here came up with years ago.* I love it.

* My favorite was one idea about using conjuration spells as load-bearing parts of a dungeon's structure, so a party tossing around area dispels might end up collapsing the dungeon on themselves.

[Alex Warlorn]

To the fighters maybe. But then, this opening trap would have invalidated the OG Tomb's purpose as an automated magic item farm.

So far though, I'm not seeing anything that would outright invalidate your character's entire ability suite based on a total guess, which the Tomb is rife with. The 3.5 update is more fair, but it's not for nothing that the original was compared to digging a mine shaft via suicide bombing.

Of course, the original also had the funniest cheat ever:
You're there for cash. The doors are solid adamantine 6 inches thick. Just steal the front door and go home, you win.

I think 3.5 been referred to as The Tomb of Mild Anxiety.

[WalterTheMighty]

When you're a stick figure


Serious question: would the right amount of ears be zero? :smallsmile:

[hungrycrow]

I think it is still fairer than this.

Eh, if you walk through this dungeon like it's just a series of hallways with monsters at the end it ambushes you with monsters that poison you and steal your items. If you try that in the Tomb it just kills you instantly with no save.

What Serini's dungeon has going for it is that any potential invaders have just been through a hundred or so dungeons that were nothing but hallways with monsters at the end. The Tomb of Horrors kind of telegraphs to players that they need to be cautious.

[Errorname]

I think it is still fairer than this.

Tomb is fairer in the sense that (if I am not mistaken) it was designed with the assumption that the party had hirelings who they could have stick their heads into the 'this kills you instantly' traps, but also there are a lot of "this kills you instantly" traps

This first encounter is brutal, but it's meant to maim more than kill.


My favorite was one idea about using conjuration spells as load-bearing parts of a dungeon's structure, so a party tossing around area dispels might end up collapsing the dungeon on themselves.

That's evil and I might steal that.


Eh, if you walk through this dungeon like it's just a series of hallways with monsters at the end it ambushes you with monsters that poison you and steal your items. If you try that in the Tomb it just kills you instantly with no save.

What Serini's dungeon has going for it is that any potential invaders have just been through a hundred or so dungeons that were nothing but hallways with monsters at the end. The Tomb of Horrors kind of telegraphs to players that they need to be cautious.

Yeah, this is more Tucker's Kobolds than Tomb of Horrors, clever and vicious deployment of monsters as statted, just with much nastier monsters.

[danielxcutter]

I do wonder if some of those notoriously unfair encounters/modules/etc. would have been so devastating if they hadn't likely been tailored for not only the general playstyle but also depended on metagaming. Probably not, especially for the Tomb, but still.

[ZerglingOne]

I can't help but think the "banal name for an eldritch abomination" might be a MitD clue.

[Michaeler]

Between the rust monster and the disenchanters, has anyone speculated what might happen to the umbrella?

It seems to have some kind of magical darkness effect, and it's probably mostly metal.

[AvangionQ]

All monsters are made up, some more than others.

[No good @ names]

Mein Gött, she's a Dungeon Master! She's too dangerous to be left alive!


Now this is a dungeon Gygax would be proud of!


I would like to be the first to resurrect the argument about Serini poaching Dorukan's monsters, since 2nd edition had different opinions about what was fair compared to 3rd edition.


I think it is still fairer than this.


Why would any “dungeon” that doesn’t exist for the meta reason of players defeating it be fair?

Every dungeon/gate really was, or should have been “unfair”.

Dorukan’s primary defence was an exceedingly powerful wizard - I believe it’s implied in SoD that Xykon only beat him by getting him to vacate his prepared defenses with a unique berserk button - something not really available to a bunch of players in a game.

Azure City was a freaking city with an entire army. What DM is going to give their players a counter-army of Hobgoblins in a convenient valley?

Probably my number 1 gripe with some people on this forum. OOTS is a story. The Giant is the storyteller not the DM.



That quote about “choose assumptions that fit the text instead of complaining about implications of assumption that don’t fit the text” probably needs to include the assumption that first and foremost, OOTS is not a game, it is not meant to be “fair”, it is a story that is meant to have characters overcoming adversity - fair or unfair.

[/rant]

[danielxcutter]

On my part, that was less a mention of game balance and more about Serini’s gauntlet being deadly (and the Tomb, while justifiably having a reputation as unfair, at least was theoretically beatable without metagaming or making off with the adamantine doors).

[declinator]

Xykon has at least two magic items, right? The boots and the ring?

Is the MitD's parasol (parashade) magical?

[ZhonLord]

Probably my number 1 gripe with some people on this forum. OOTS is a story. The Giant is the storyteller not the DM.
[/rant]

Indeed. "We weren't actually representing a game campaign, we were just living in a world where the laws of-" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html)

[Charity322]

Serious question: would the right amount of ears be zero? :smallsmile:

No, there's usually one ear on the right. :P

[Tzardok]

Is the MitD's parasol (parashade) magical?

It has that darkness effect on it, yes.

[Daibhid C]

Tomb is fairer in the sense that (if I am not mistaken) it was designed with the assumption that the party had hirelings who they could have stick their heads into the 'this kills you instantly' traps, but also there are a lot of "this kills you instantly" traps.

Hmm, did 1st Ed. have Morale saves for hirelings, or was it just assumed that you could say to them "Hey, Expendable 17! Step over the others so I can check what happens if you do this!" and they'd say "Sure thing, boss!"


It has that darkness effect on it, yes.

I'm not sure if it's ever been specifically stated to be magical, and not just a cartoony take on how shadows work, although I've personally always assumed it's a Parasol of the Night Fiend, from a "Bazaar of the Bizarre" column in Dragon.

[Blue Dragon]

I said out loud that my favorite response to the last comic would be a tiny jump forward to the next plot point, with no continuity panel connecting the last strip, and everyone acting as if it never happened just like Minrah predicted. Does that count?

Certainly not. I liked that one for obvious reasons.

[brian 333]

Azure City was a freaking city with an entire army. What DM is going to give their players a counter-army of Hobgoblins in a convenient valley?[/rant]

Winter of '85 I ran the Siege of Stivic in which a combined force of humanoids and monsters attacked two major cites. The city of Corith fell in the first week of the invasion, then the PCs slowed the invasion and were overwhelmed by numbers in several battles before they entrenched in Stivic for about three months of game sessions.

To be fair, my players had multiple PC groups scattered around the map, but by the time of the siege they had mostly fallen back to positions outside the occupied region or gone into hiding to wait for an opportunity to break out.

The situation was similar to Azure City in many ways, but my players eventually won. I gave them an army of humans and demihumans, plus three relief armies, one of humans, one of dwarves, and one of elves, but by the time relief was on its way the Pcs had already decapitated the enemy leadership and very publicly killed a red dragon general.

[Raven777]

Eldritch abomination is par for the course for a name like "Blue Poet". Last time I heard a name like this, it was a Red Jester (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/red-jester/), which possessed this utterly terrifying campaign-ending gem as an at-will ability:


Jester’s Deck (Su)
The red jester uses a deck of playing cards in combat that functions as a deck of many things. Once per round, as a standard action, the red jester can draw a single card and throw it at an opponent to a range of 20 feet. This requires a successful ranged touch attack. If successful, the card takes effect that round and affects the target just as if he had drawn a card from a deck of many things. A red jester can draw the same card more than once. The playing cards only function in the hands of a red jester. To anyone else, they are merely normal playing cards.

[LuPuWei]

Xykon doesn't. You can't disenchant a creature like that. The Crimson Mantle is an artifact and therefore immune to any disenchanting effect lower than Disjunction. The phylactery, on the other hand, would probably be in danger.


We don't know where it is and Disenchanters explicitly target jewellery last.



Artifact. I'm ready to say that those are above the Disenchanters' pay grade.



Mych to my chagrin, Undead and even Constructs are considered creatures, rather than objects.



Except if they'll just send the Monster in first to spring all traps. I wouldn't put it past them and it would be brutally effective.

Ah, gotcha...

Anyway, probably not what the Giant was going for, but the Title and the Froghemoth's design remind me of an old poem by Bruce Coville:

Just Like You

Just because I've tentacles,
My skin is ocean blue,
Don't think I don't have feelings
Just the same as you.

Every time I fall in love
My knees are filled with bliss;
And I pucker up my eyebrows
To give my girl a kiss.

The times we've had a lover's spat,
My liver's always broken;
Many times I've cried my ears off
Because harsh words were spoken.

When I am suspicious,
My feet can smell a rat;
I try to eat nutritious,
Lots of sugar, salt, and fat.

My nose runs and my feet smell-
I've heard that yours do too.
I shine my ears with gobs of wax,
Just the same as you.

When scared, I feel my skin crawl,
The way you humans do.
Mine comes back when I call it
(I hope that yours does, too).

Though you're rarely eight feet tall,
I don't look down on you;
I know we're really much the same-
Even though you are not blue.

[Xavian]

Nice comic - Team Evil doesn't seem to overly rely overly on equipment so might not be that much of an issue for them however.



I don't think that fumblebees actually exist but mechanically giant wasps could mess with dexterity (likely too weak for Serini's needs), Blue Poet I have even less - drawing a complete blank on the seven ears for a DnD creature (maybe a reference to having an ear for music?).

I found information and a stat block for fumblebees from 2010. It looks like they do exist. They appear on a kobold press blog, for 3E/Pathfinder. And not only do they have poison that does dexterity damage, they also grease the floor. They have a very low CR. But they're bees. I'm sure Serini's thinking here is that with enough bees, even the most powerful adventurer is going to roll a few nat 1s.


Fumblebee Swarm (CR 3)
XP 800
CN Diminutive aberration (swarm)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +8

DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 14 (+1 Dex, +4 size)
hp 18 (4d8)
Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +7
Defensive Abilities swarm traits; Immune weapon damage
Weaknesses swarm traits

OFFENSE
Speed 5 ft., fly 50 ft. (good)
Melee swarm (1d6 plus poison)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks distraction (DC 12), grease, poison

STATISTICS
Str 1, Dex 13, Con 11, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB –; CMD —
Skills Fly +18, Perception +8
Feats Improved Initiative, Iron Will
Languages Aklo (cannot speak)
ECOLOGY
Environment underground
Organization solitary, pair, or bollix (3-6 swarms)
Treasure incidental

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Grease (Su) A fumblebee swarm covers its space with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature that starts its turn in the area must make a successful Reflex save (DC 12; Charisma-based) or fall. You can walk within or through this area at 1/2 normal speed with an Acrobatics check (DC 10). Failure means you can’t move that round, while failure by 5 or more means you fall.

Poison (Ex) Fumblebee swarm poison—injury; save Fort DC 12 (Constitution-based); frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d2 Dexterity damage; cure 1 save.

[Wintermoot]

I found information and a stat block for fumblebees from 2010. It looks like they do exist. They appear on a kobold press blog, for 3E/Pathfinder. And not only do they have poison that does dexterity damage, they also grease the floor. They have a very low CR. But they're bees. I'm sure Serini's thinking here is that with enough bees, even the most powerful adventurer is going to roll a few nat 1s.



To be clear, I doubt that the Giant was specifically referencing the Kobold Press Fumblebees. So much as taking an obvious name rhyme (bumblebee => fumblebee) with a clear game mechanic synchronicity (swarm dex damage) and playing on that.

I mean, I had 'fumblebees' of similar design in a game several years ago of my own devise, and had never heard of Kobold Press (or OOTS at that point)

I think someone else said it best earlier that its meant to go from a particularly esoteric first party creature (disenchanter) to a cheaty templated creature (paragon rust monster) to increasingly bizarre but realistically sounding original content creatures (fumblebees, kneestealers, blue poet)

But who knows. Maybe the Giant really digs the Kobold Press guys.

[Doug Lampert]

Well... if she's using the D&D 3.5 rules for Disenchanters, from Fiend Folio, they are CR 17. 6 of them means... CR19? I don't remember the CR calculation rules too well. So... not too shabby.

You don't get a higher CR by combining monsters, you get a higher EL. Encounters have an Encounter Level, monsters have a Challenge Rating, these are different values.

This matters because treasure is by EL, but XP is by CR. This is why Belkar didn't get any XP for the giant pile of hobgoblin corpses, because the individual hobgoblins are low CR, and CR doesn't add at all.

As someone else said, six is EL equal to CR+5.

[Breccia]

Mein Gött, she's a Dungeon Master! She's too dangerous to be left alive!

She's a brutal one at that. There is no saving throw from the fear of a (paragon) rust monster.

[Fish]

Q: Are some of these monsters made up?
A: Yes, all of them are.

Q: How will these monsters fare against Team Evil?
A: Much less well than they will fare against the Order of the Stick, once Xykon re-animates them.

Q: Isn’t it possible to bypass this dungeon with a decent Spot check?
A: Do you think Serini didn’t think of that and plan accordingly?

[ZhonLord]

Q: Are some of these monsters made up?
A: Yes, all of them are.

Q: How will these monsters fare against Team Evil?
A: Much less well than they will fare against the Order of the Stick, once Xykon re-animates them.

Q: Isn’t it possible to bypass this dungeon with a decent Spot check?
A: Do you think Serini didn’t think of that and plan accordingly?

2. Xykon, Redcloak and Oona all losing their magic items is still very important, considering Mr Bones has freedom of Movement and protection against his own Meteor Swarms. And Oona's maces getting eaten will still limit her direct combat potential, which we saw was quite effective against Minrah.

[Tubercular Ox]

I can't help but think the "banal name for an eldritch abomination" might be a MitD clue.

A Haunter in the Dark, maybe.

EDIT: It only has one wing, does that help?


It has that darkness effect on it, yes.

That would make the umbrella radiate darkness. I've always felt that Rich was abusing the line, "If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed."

To be fair, the darkness spell could be on the handle and achieve the same effect.

[arimareiji]

Hmm, did 1st Ed. have Morale saves for hirelings, or was it just assumed that you could say to them "Hey, Expendable 17! Step over the others so I can check what happens if you do this!" and they'd say "Sure thing, boss!"

"What? It beats working retail." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0138.html)

[KorvinStarmast]

Hmm, did 1st Ed. have Morale saves for hirelings, or was it just assumed that you could say to them "Hey, Expendable 17! Step over the others so I can check what happens if you do this!" and they'd say "Sure thing, boss!" Yes. Morale checks and such were in AD&D 1e for hirelings and henchmen. (Also in the original game).
If you didn't treat them well, it could cost you.

[Adeptus]

New comic is up.

Wow Rich, I can practically taste the endgame feel in the air. While I of course with OotS would go on forever, I'm super excited to see how this will play out. Yours is a work of genius.

[Quizatzhaderac]

All of them. It's the main reason we carry lots of poles.I assumed that was for Freudian reasons.

[Metastachydium]

When you're a stick figure

Well, Stickverse people do have ears. It's visible on creatures such as Elves and Goblinoids all the time, and its presence can be inferred otherwise from hairstyles (e.g. Lien's) and jewellery (e.g. Sideshave Bodyguard's).


2. Xykon, Redcloak and Oona all losing their magic items is still very important, considering Mr Bones has freedom of Movement and protection against his own Meteor Swarms. And Oona's maces getting eaten will still limit her direct combat potential, which we saw was quite effective against Minrah.

Again, that only happens if the Monster doesn't walk ahead of them rtying to give things gentle taps.

[Tubercular Ox]

Again, that only happens if the Monster doesn't walk ahead of them rtying to give things gentle taps.

Are you reconsidering my theory about characters being set up to be outraged by the treatment of a child monster? Cuz you're pushing it forward.

[Metastachydium]

Are you reconsidering my theory about characters being set up to be outraged by the treatment of a child monster? Cuz you're pushing it forward.

Dunno, not really. People have been using, abusing and trying to harm the Monster since forever. The issue with the former has been largely treated as an issue separate from him being childlike, and how brutally ineffective attacks against him consistently are is regularly played for laughs.

[Peelee]

I assumed that was for Freudian reasons.

Nah, he was an Austrian, not a Pole.

[Crusher]

This first encounter is brutal, but it's meant to maim more than kill.

True, whereas Tomb of Horrors went for the kill every time. People forget its entirely possible to die before even getting through the front door. IIRC, there were 2 front doors on the hillside. One blew up or something, and the other went into a big long cave with a door at the end. If you tried to open the door, the cave collapsed. I don't have it in front of me, but I think it did 10-100 to everyone inside at the time, and it was 100+' back to the door.

The real entrance was hidden behind dirt and illusions between the two entrances.

[Psyren]

Eldritch abomination is par for the course for a name like "Blue Poet". Last time I heard a name like this, it was a Red Jester (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/red-jester/), which possessed this utterly terrifying campaign-ending gem as an at-will ability:

Nice reference and agreed, this seems to be the design philosophy Haley was referencing.

Though I also agree with the earlier poster who pointed out that at-will Wall of Force is remarkably good against a lot of these monsters.

[Tubercular Ox]

the other went into a big long cave with a door at the end. If you tried to open the door, the cave collapsed

We spent two hours discussing that door. Poked the ceiling with a pole, debris came down. Tied ropes to the handles and opened it by yanking from outside the cave. Searched it after the dust settled, found a dead end. Then we decided any other obvious doors must also be fake and used poles to sound out the cliff face until we found the real door.

Poles.

[atemu1234]

To be clear, I doubt that the Giant was specifically referencing the Kobold Press Fumblebees. So much as taking an obvious name rhyme (bumblebee => fumblebee) with a clear game mechanic synchronicity (swarm dex damage) and playing on that.

I mean, I had 'fumblebees' of similar design in a game several years ago of my own devise, and had never heard of Kobold Press (or OOTS at that point)

I think someone else said it best earlier that its meant to go from a particularly esoteric first party creature (disenchanter) to a cheaty templated creature (paragon rust monster) to increasingly bizarre but realistically sounding original content creatures (fumblebees, kneestealers, blue poet)

But who knows. Maybe the Giant really digs the Kobold Press guys.

Given that Rich has been playing this game a long, long time, up to and including writing published stuff for 3.5, I don't think it's that far a stretch that he's familiar with rather odd third party monsters. Given that the MitD is *definitely* an obscure monster whose identity will be revealed at a later date, I wouldn't knock the chances.

[Joebob]

The disenchanter and rust monster combo is pretty vicious, and just goes to show why every party out there should have a Truenamer.

Truenamer: the most peerless class in the whole game.

[Tubercular Ox]

Given that Rich has been playing this game a long, long time, up to and including writing published stuff for 3.5, I don't think it's that far a stretch that he's familiar with rather odd third party monsters. Given that the MitD is *definitely* an obscure monster whose identity will be revealed at a later date, I wouldn't knock the chances.

I did a research project once that you reminded me of. I looked up all the monsters named in this scene (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html), and kept getting redirected to this book (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/1376/Tome-of-Horrors).

It's got Dracolisks, Death Dogs, Guardian Daemons, the Wolf-In-Sheep's-Clothing (the tree stump with a bunny on top), and the Flumphs.

The book claims to have checked with WotC to make sure that none of the monsters were going to be reprinted before statting them up itself.

It also has Froghemoths and Disenchanters. No Fumblebees, Knee-Stealers, or Blue Poets.

And my recollection is that Kobold Games became involved in this scavenger hunt, maybe for hordlings, maybe for osquips, but I can't find any evidence of it now. :(

Edit: The book was printed in 2002, the strip in question was posted on 12 April 2004.

[Deepbluediver]

Is "Blue Poet" a reference to some monster I'm not familiar with?
OK, I know disenchanters and rust monsters are real exist in d&d, and I know paragon is a template, but how many of the others are actually stat'ed? The bees? Is the Blue poet a blue, with a weird prestige class?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

I'm also coming up empty. No clue what it's in reference to yet.
Wasn't Incarnum sometimes referenced as "blue magic"? Because that was the natural color of the various effects or that flavor of magic or whatever? I don't recall any kind of "Blue Poet" being mentioned but I'm no expert, and I definitely tended to skim some sections in non-core sourcebooks.

[danielxcutter]

The disenchanter and rust monster combo is pretty vicious, and just goes to show why every party out there should have a Truenamer.

Truenamer: the most peerless class in the whole game.

Truenamer is the epitome of a good concept being completely crippled by bad design, until it gets to level 20 and gets access to Gate.

[F.Harr]

Hee, hee, hee, HEEEEEEEEEE!

Oh, that's delightful!

[Joebob]

Truenamer is the epitome of a good concept being completely crippled by bad design, until it gets to level 20 and gets access to Gate.

The best part of Truenamer, in my experience, is getting a free Extreme Munchkinry Pass from all but the sternest of DMs.

Yes, that's right: the most powerful Truenamer class feature is pity.

That being said... goddamn does it have pizzazz.

[rasborry]

Loving the overcomplicated bs dungeon lmao

[KorvinStarmast]

Given that Rich has been playing this game a long, long time, up to and including writing published stuff for 3.5, I don't think it's that far a stretch that he's familiar with rather odd third party monsters. Given that the MitD is *definitely* an obscure monster whose identity will be revealed at a later date, I wouldn't knock the chances. I think he played the game for a long time, as I recall a recent post (a few years back) maybe on his Patreon Q&A where he said he doesn't play D&D anymore. Or not much.

Truenamer is the epitome of a good concept being completely crippled by bad design, until it gets to level 20 and gets access to Gate. So is Four Elements Monk and so is Wild Magic Sorcerer (in D&D 5e, though I am not sure how badly Truenamer falls short as I've not played it...)

[Tubercular Ox]

(I am not sure how badly Truenamer falls short as I've not played it...)

At level one you are barely able to activate your abilities, and the difficulty of activating your abilities scales faster than your ability to activate them, so every level you gain makes you less effective. Like, the DC goes up by 2 but you can only sink one skill point per level into the skill. Or something.

[Blue Dragon]

Is "Blue Poet" a reference to some monster I'm not familiar with?

No, just a set-up gag to the last panel punchline and a bait for the Overthinkers of the Stick start trying to get milk from a rock or the equivalent in English.

[Metastachydium]

I did a research project once that you reminded me of. I looked up all the monsters named in this scene (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html), and kept getting redirected to this book (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/1376/Tome-of-Horrors).

It's got Dracolisks, Death Dogs, Guardian Daemons, the Wolf-In-Sheep's-Clothing (the tree stump with a bunny on top), and the Flumphs.

(Death Dogs were updated to 3.x in MM2, so late 3.0, same as the Disenchanter in FF. I think the Web Dracolisk is also 3.0 compatible.)


At level one you are barely able to activate your abilities, and the difficulty of activating your abilities scales faster than your ability to activate them, so every level you gain makes you less effective. Like, the DC goes up by 2 but you can only sink one skill point per level into the skill. Or something.

Yup. The utterances are also few, far between and mostly garbage, and the recharge mechanism (if one wants to use an utterance MORE THAN ONCER PER DAY! (THE GALL!)) is up there with the scaling over levels in terms of being bad, if memory serves.

[danielxcutter]

The pain of optimizing Truenamer into something useful has been compared to losing the ability to taste ice cream.

[Metastachydium]

The pain of optimizing Truenamer into something useful has been compared to losing the ability to taste ice cream.

It's worse! Some of us don't even like ice cream, but Truenamer is equally bad for all. (Also, the few paths it has into competence require such the kind of heavy resource expenditure, that the process isn't even rewarding, because the result will always look incredibly same-y.)

[Tubercular Ox]

(Death Dogs were updated to 3.x in MM2, so late 3.0, same as the Disenchanter in FF. I think the Web Dracolisk is also 3.0 compatible.)

That was my suspicion the first time, actually. If Rich wanted to write a strip about outdated monsters he remembers fondly, it seems likely that a bunch of grognards that want to write a book about outdated monsters they remember fondly would have a pretty heavy intersection, even without communication. That goes for both Tome of Horrors and Fiend Folio. Haven't looked at MM2 as a source for outdated monsters.

But if one book had every monster in it, I'd've brought it up a lot earlier. If it were a book that promised to have only monsters without official updates, I'd've been excited.

Also, I'm getting mixed results on whether Kobold Press even existed in time for that strip, so I'm really curious why I remember them.

[Eloi]

I love how the Order of the Stick seems set to bypass not only the Draketooth Pyramid but also Kraagor's Gate.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Truenamer: the most peerless class in the whole game.Bureaucrat Conrad: you are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

[Metastachydium]

I love how the Order of the Stick seems set to bypass not only the Draketooth Pyramid but also Kraagor's Gate.

Technically, they also bypassed the Azure City defenses, since they were brought to the throne room directly without having to fight their way through the walls, the army, the other walls, the clergy, the Guard and the Ghost Martyrs.

[Peelee]

Bureaucrat Conrad: you are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

Sweet reawakenin' of me, a Jamaican-in!

[Faldrath]

Technically, they also bypassed the Azure City defenses, since they were brought to the throne room directly without having to fight their way through the walls, the army, the other walls, the clergy, the Guard and the Ghost Martyrs.

Technically technically, they also bypassed most of the Dungeon of Dorukan defenses, since they mostly fought Team Evil's minions, not the stuff Dorukan had prepared (most importantly, Dorukan himself).

[Somniloquist]

And they didn't even engage with Lirian's gate at all!

[Precure]

Technically technically, they also bypassed most of the Dungeon of Dorukan defenses, since they mostly fought Team Evil's minions, not the stuff Dorukan had prepared (most importantly, Dorukan himself).

And they bypassed most of the dungeon itself thanks to Celia and Goblin Teenagers' help.

[KorvinStarmast]

And they bypassed most of the dungeon itself thanks to Celia and Goblin Teenagers' help. Ya beat me to it. :smallsmile:
It's almost like Rich established a pattern ... although DStP and Utterly Dwarfed seem to have been required grinds.

[Felius]

I'm kind of interested to see what it does to Team Evil when they come through.
Given Xykon, probably sheer concentrated power, liberal sacrifice of minions, and likely a bit of "lateral thinking counters" (flight for example I believe is one of the best counters against Rust Monsters, although the room might be made to make that more difficult). He's incredibly evil, impulsive, and often doesn't come as the sharpest tool in the shed, but he is not actually incompetent, as our heroes discovered more than once.


Yup, this is just Rich having fun with the expectations of most D+D players. If any DM ran a dungeon like this, their players would revolt...this is SO unfair. ;)

That said, I'm totally in on this, I love this idea.
A DM pulls this dungeon, the players are fully justified in going full "We are going to go just as meta too", specially if they aren't in a strict time limit. Set up in the entrance in a (siege) camp with enough hirelings and allies to stop anything from coming out. Start digging around the dungeon, identifying the whole thing from the outside, to whatever limit the creator decided to make their protections, magical or otherwise. Make liberal use of scrying and other divinations to acquire as much information as it's physically possible before ever stepping closer. Start throwing expendable critters and minions at the dungeon, according to your budget and alignment (sheep or goats are pretty cheap, and only the more saintly characters will object strongly enough to matter, but if you are evil, enslaved peasants/goblins will do even better. If you are that saintly, animated objects are probably your best option to start with, if more expensive). Second phase, room by room with simulacrums or other semi-expendable dudes, with the most cheese you can possibly do. If the dungeon is not set for it, and you have a way to protect against it, try to suffocate everything inside first in any of a myriad of (magical and non-magical) ways, from setting bonfires and driving smoke (and CO2) in, to chemical stuff, to whatever appropriate magic you have for it. Apply whatever other in-universe cheese you can think of. Then, after the simulacrums do their thing, then you might consider going yourself if you really must, and even then, full paranoia and caution still applies. And make sure your characters (and everything else on your side that you can control) is fully min-maxed too, and likely min-maxed with the assumption they can have a full team of similarly competent people as backup.

Is that a nightmare to run or to plan, probably annoying and boring for nearly everyone, and would lead to the game imploding in real life? Yes. But it is essentially the counterpart to "What if the creator of the dungeon was a highly paranoid bastard who was absolutely against anyone managing to go through it, ideally seeing whoever tried permanently dead?": "What if the PCs were actually high level paranoid professional dungeon explorers who made that their careers and really wanted to do their jobs with the minimum possible risk to themselves?". If one side decides to play cute, the other is perfectly justified to reply in kind if they don't want to just leave the game because of it. :smalltongue:


it was designed with the assumption that the party had hirelings who they could have stick their heads into the 'this kills you instantly' traps
Poor Nodwick.

[bunsen_h]

But since it literaly pops up a portal and a magic announcement to the party telling them they have found what they seek, and it lies beyond the portal, and walking through the portal clearly requires an action beyond simply exploring the corridors behind the doors, I think the Modron will declare "You've found the object of your search. The terms are complete". And then skedaddle.

I'm not seeing anything in Serini's messages telling them that they have found what they seek..?


Since we're told how the traps are supposed to work, chances are the traps will not work as expected.

They could simply bruteforce it. But my guess is that V is the weakness here, since they are spied continuously by the infernals, and they will use this information to interfere in some way.

At this point, I'd expect the Order to be trying to anticipate what will happen when Team Evil encounters the various elements of this final dungeon.


A gazebo! :smallbiggrin:

Maybe. I don't know if any of Team Evil have axes, but Xykon definitely has fire spells.


That would make the umbrella radiate darkness. I've always felt that Rich was abusing the line, "If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed."

To be fair, the darkness spell could be on the handle and achieve the same effect.

The darkness projects downwards from the underside of the umbrella, with a very slight spread, like a truncated cone. The region is always symmetrical relative to the ground, even when the umbrella is tilted. I'm not sure how to get that kind of directional focus. One could achieve it with a bunch of little anti-lights that hang from the spots where the umbrella's struts are attached to the fabric, so they always point downwards. Imagine a bell with a clapper, with Darkness cast on the clapper. The darkness would radiate in all directions from the clapper, but the opaque bell would block the effect in all directions except the opening. If the bell is suspended so that it can hang freely, gravity would pull it, and the darkness would always be projected downwards except if the setup is yanked sideways and the bell tilts.

[WalterTheMighty]

There's a Discord??? Invite me


For some reason, I got pinged on the Discord because a new comic was up, and the discussion thread already existed, but I wasn't able to access the comic. When I went to 1288, I just got the "the author doesn't post comics ahead of time page" and I had to visit the MitD thread before the comic finally showed up.

[Elanfanforlife]

There's a Discord??? Invite me

https://discord.gg/23scZFXR
It's specifically for the subreddit, and it's not very active, but it does exist.

[Metastachydium]

A gazebo! :smallbiggrin:

But only if it's white.

[Peelee]

But only if it's white.

I see how it is.

[brian 333]

I see how it is.

DM: As your party ventures deeper into the forest you enter an idyllic glade blanketed in wildflowers, with slanting sunbeams swaying in time with the trees in the mid-morning breeze. In the center of the glade stands a white gazebo.

Player 1: I attack. Do we roll initiative?

[gbaji]

I'm not seeing anything in Serini's messages telling them that they have found what they seek..?

Aside from "Congratulations on completing the first stage of Kraagor's tomb"?

That was only one half of the reasoning I was using. The other is that Redcloak specifically said they wanted to "search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon".

This is a dungeon behind a portal inside one of those dungeons. The Modron, being a creature of pure law, could be extremely literal here and not accompany them for that reason alone (behind a portal, not a door; Entered from a dungeon, not the canyon). I also think it matches the spirit of the request as well. Redcloak himself comments that while he wanted to use the gate to bring something in to help them fight off boss level monsters guarding the gate, he's now decided to use it just to figure out where the gate is in the first place.

Which suggests that, no, the Modron will not be there to help TE fight the monsters defending the gate.



The darkness projects downwards from the underside of the umbrella, with a very slight spread, like a truncated cone. The region is always symmetrical relative to the ground, even when the umbrella is tilted. I'm not sure how to get that kind of directional focus. One could achieve it with a bunch of little anti-lights that hang from the spots where the umbrella's struts are attached to the fabric, so they always point downwards. Imagine a bell with a clapper, with Darkness cast on the clapper. The darkness would radiate in all directions from the clapper, but the opaque bell would block the effect in all directions except the opening. If the bell is suspended so that it can hang freely, gravity would pull it, and the darkness would always be projected downwards except if the setup is yanked sideways and the bell tilts.

Yeah. I think "umbrella with darkness cast on the inside apex" fits the best, with a bit of cartoon/comic physics applied too.

There's also some question as to whether the rust monster would destroy the umbrella. I mean, modern umbrellas are typically made with metal or plastic ribs, but old timey ones would probably be made with wood, right? So basically immune to a rust monster.

Silly point anyway. The MitD will somehow remain in shadows until it's time to be revealed anyway. I'd think this question would be more relevant with regard to Sunny's AMF than the rust monster anyway.

[brian 333]

Aside from "Congratulations on completing the first stage of Kraagor's tomb"?

That was only one half of the reasoning I was using. The other is that Redcloak specifically said they wanted to "search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon".

This is a dungeon behind a portal inside one of those dungeons. The Modron, being a creature of pure law, could be extremely literal here and not accompany them for that reason alone (behind a portal, not a door; Entered from a dungeon, not the canyon). I also think it matches the spirit of the request as well. Redcloak himself comments that while he wanted to use the gate to bring something in to help them fight off boss level monsters guarding the gate, he's now decided to use it just to figure out where the gate is in the first place.

Which suggests that, no, the Modron will not be there to help TE fight the monsters defending the gate.

Exploring the 'dungeon behind the doors' does not exclude entering the portal because it is behind one of the doors and a part of a dungeon. One would have to demonstrate that it is not behind one of the doors or not a dungeon to invalidate the Quinton's contractual obligation. Nothing in the exact wording of the agreement precludes there being multiple dungeons behind a single door or a singular dungeon behind multiple doors.

The scope of the Quinton's participation is far more important. What is it allowed or required, under the contract, to do?

Wall of Force effectively protects the Order as much as it protects Team Evil. And that's all the Quinton's contract obligates it to do when encountering creatures within the dungeons. Its obligation to keep a map of the rooms does not hurt The Order at all. Once TE finds the Gate, the Quinton's contract is ended. At that point, it returns to its home plane and takes its Minions with it.

Assuming The Order of the Stick & Co. Take up a position in the gate room itself, the Quinton's usefulness vs. the Order to TE is nil.

[Fish]

Nothing in the exact wording of the agreement precludes there being multiple dungeons behind a single door or a singular dungeon behind multiple doors.

Linguist hat on.

It’s the “dungeons behind the doors in this canyon” part that intrigues me. The dual prepositional phrase is ambiguous. It could mean 1) “the dungeons that lie in the canyon, which are behind these doors,” or 2) “the dungeons, which lie behind the doors in this canyon.” It could possibly mean that the doors and dungeons must be in the canyon.

There is a portal. Does the portal lead to a location outside the canyon? It could invalidate the contract if one is going by interpretation 1. “Sorry, the dungeon you are entering is outside the canyon, and I am not contracted to accompany you.”

The second interpretation is a bit trickier. Suppose the dungeon contained doors within it — subdoors, if you will. Surely the Quinlon is not inhibited by those; as long as the subdoor is in the canyon, and what lies beyond the door is a dungeon, it is under the contract. But what if the subdoor leads outside? By definition, that is not a dungeon behind a door; the Quinlon is not obligated to search the entire exterior surface of the world because it lies behind a door in the dungeon. The Quinlon is contracted to search dungeons behind doors, if said doors are in the canyon (according to interpretation 2). Is the Quinlon obligated to search dungeons that lie behind magic portals? Dungeons that lie behind teleport traps? It is not behind a door in the canyon. Its participation does not seem to be mandated, but that hinges (ha!) on whether a magic portal or a teleport trap (or some other conveyance) is a door. That’s up to the legalese.

All this assuming, of course, that the Quinlon really is what it appears to be, and is contained by the behaviors we think it is.

[Tzardok]

Quinton, not Quinlon.

[brian 333]

Dungeons behind the 'doors in this canyon.'

Only the doors must be in the canyon. Where anything else is located is not relevant. The only relevant issue, once entering a door, is whether or not they are in a dungeon. If the portal leads to The Highcloud Peaks or to The Smallwood, then it could be said that they are no longer exploring a dungeon. However, given D&Ds broad interpretation of what constitutes a dungeon, virtually any structure which contains monsters and treasure is a dungeon.


I would like you to accompany us while we search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon and assist us in restraining all hostile creatures we encounter within.
(The Quinton asks: What is the object of your search?)
You don't need to know that. All that matters is we want to search every corridor as quickly as possible until we find it, or we've checked them all.
Also, I want you to keep a mental record of which doors we've entered and in what order, and the physical dimensions and orientation of every room we visit. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1265.html)

[Tubercular Ox]

One good strip of the Quinton and Redcloak arguing semantics, that's the shout-out to the forums I want to see.

[Peelee]

One good strip of the Quinton and Redcloak arguing semantics, that's the shout-out to the forums I want to see.

The author largely doesn't read the forums anymore.

[Tubercular Ox]

The author largely doesn't read the forums anymore.

Did the forum become obsessed with semantics after the author stopped reading?

[bunsen_h]

Aside from "Congratulations on completing the first stage of Kraagor's tomb"?

To me, that's very explicitly not "you've found what you seek", but only "you've completed the first part of the journey". Team Evil doesn't know that the setup is multi-part; they think that the Gate is behind one of these doors, and what they seek is the Gate, not anything in between.

[locksmith of lo]

what if they do not find the unspecified object that they are looking for? it seems like there is the possibility that they could not somehow activate the final trap, since it seems to be difficult to find (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1285.html) and it needs to meet certain conditions to activate. that would certainly terminate the terms of the contract before they find the next dungeon area.

[Boo600]

“Given Xykon, probably sheer concentrated power, liberal sacrifice of minions, and likely a bit of "lateral thinking counters" (flight for example I believe is one of the best counters against Rust Monsters, although the room might be made to make that more difficult).”

Yeah, the ceiling isn’t that high, and the Rust Monster is a Paragon - it gets an extra feat.

Who here is betting on X-treme jumps?

[No good @ names]

Exploring the 'dungeon behind the doors' does not exclude entering the portal because it is behind one of the doors and a part of a dungeon. One would have to demonstrate that it is not behind one of the doors or not a dungeon to invalidate the Quinton's contractual obligation. Nothing in the exact wording of the agreement precludes there being multiple dungeons behind a single door or a singular dungeon behind multiple doors.

The scope of the Quinton's participation is far more important. What is it allowed or required, under the contract, to do?

Wall of Force effectively protects the Order as much as it protects Team Evil. And that's all the Quinton's contract obligates it to do when encountering creatures within the dungeons. Its obligation to keep a map of the rooms does not hurt The Order at all. Once TE finds the Gate, the Quinton's contract is ended. At that point, it returns to its home plane and takes its Minions with it.

Assuming The Order of the Stick & Co. Take up a position in the gate room itself, the Quinton's usefulness vs. the Order to TE is nil.

Until the being of pure Order and Law comes across the agent of chaos known as Elan, and the trail of pandaemonium left in his wake…

[bunsen_h]

To me, that's very explicitly not "you've found what you seek", but only "you've completed the first part of the journey". Team Evil doesn't know that the setup is multi-part; they think that the Gate is behind one of these doors, and what they seek is the Gate, not anything in between.

Or: "Thank you, heroes! But our Gate is in another dungeon!"

Serini's message is oddly upbeat, considering that the heroes will presumably have just finished (in most cases) killing hundreds of sentient monsters who volunteered to help guard the gate.


Until the being of pure Order and Law comes across the agent of chaos known as Elan, and the trail of pandaemonium left in his wake…

The Quinton will scream in confusion and go home.

[StragaSevera]

I have a strange prediction.

Xykon's current body will be defeated by throwing him into Kraagor's gate.

It is not just a good callback to the start of the comics. It has some things pointing up to it too. Xykon was defeated by grappling, which bypassed all of his HP and resistances. So now he has the magic boots that protect him from this tactics, but - at the climax of the confrontation - it would be revealed that disenchanting monsters made quick work on this boots ;-)

How do I make it an "official" prediction?

[Laurentio III]

How do I make it an "official" prediction?
You just did, but for maximal security there is a thread about predictions.

To me, it seems that this dungeon can be, so far, brute-forced. Team Evil is not going to wait 30 seconds in a room, disenchanters can just remove a couple of bonus but the only artifacts that matter is immune. Rust monster has nothing to take from half the team, and would be killed in a single round.
I get that this is just the start, but a creature like Monster in the Darkness alone could just steamroll this first setting without breaking pace.

[pearl jam]

Or: "Thank you, heroes! But our Gate is in another dungeon!"

Serini's message is oddly upbeat, considering that the heroes will presumably have just finished (in most cases) killing hundreds of sentient monsters who volunteered to help guard the gate..

The upbeat tone is certainly at odds with the fact that they have just accomplished something that Serini was attempting to prevent, but I think your allusion points to the type of message that inspired this one and thus explains the somewhat out of place celebratory feeling.

As for the monsters, I think we've been shown evidence that her attitude toward the monsters now is not reflective of what her attitude was at the time when the dungeon was first built and the message prepared.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, she was rather naive back then. Though I think she’s been overcompensating for that since.

[Kami2awa]

Hmm re Team Evil...

Xykon's immune to ability drain (undead) so Fumblebees are less of an issue (unless it's ability damage, but Serini says "draining"). Redcloak and Xykon aren't item-dependent other than the Crimson Mantle, which is an artifact and so can't be disenchanted (or reading the Disenchanter description, it might be able to be, but Disenchanters don't like to try to eat artifacts as they are too powerful for them - also it surely has Plot Armour). They have nothing that can be rusted (other than maybe Xykon's crown, which will just annoy him - apparently 3.5e Rust Monsters can "rust" gold!). We don't know what a Blue Poet is, but if it's some kind of Lovecraftian horror then it likely won't affect Xykon badly (immune to mind-affecting things and poison). Is it me, or is this rather horrifying encounter not a big threat for Team Evil?

I'd love to see the Knee-Stealers run off with Xykon's patellae, but again that'll probably just annoy him.

[brian 333]

Or: "Thank you, heroes! But our Gate is in another dungeon!"

Serini's message is oddly upbeat, considering that the heroes will presumably have just finished (in most cases) killing hundreds of sentient monsters who volunteered to help guard the gate.

Serini built the tomb as a challenge to all but the most powerful characters in the OotSworld. She knew that eventually she would die and the tomb would need a new guardian. The gauntlet is designed to force them to prove their worthiness to assume the role.

She had two backup plans: the first being her ability to call upon her old friends to help if her gate was captured by someone unworthy to hold it. (She didn't envision being the sole survivor!) The second being to give all her knowledge to the very long-lived Sunny so she could pass on all Serinni knows when a new dungeonmaster finally comes along.

Also, she's screwing with the adventurers. "You made it this far, but you won't make it to the end!"

[Tzardok]

Hmm re Team Evil...

Xykon's immune to ability drain (undead) so Fumblebees are less of an issue (unless it's ability damage, but Serini says "draining").

Undead are also immune to ability damage to their physical attributes.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, it’s worth remembering this is the first couple of encounters. If getting though this was the only criteria, the bugbears probably would have found the Gate decades ago.

[bunsen_h]

I mean, it’s worth remembering this is the first couple of encounters. If getting though this was the only criteria, the bugbears probably would have found the Gate decades ago.

That would require some individual bugbear to have gone through every dungeon to its end. That's unlikely. They regard the setup as a resource for food and treasure, but they don't have a burning need to "complete" the thing barring somebody's obsessive-compulsive quirk. Some of the monsters are tough enough to challenge Team Evil, and a team of bugbears aren't likely to be anywhere near as powerful as Team Evil.

[brian 333]

That would require some individual bugbear to have gone through every dungeon to its end. That's unlikely. They regard the setup as a resource for food and treasure, but they don't have a burning need to "complete" the thing barring somebody's obsessive-compulsive quirk. Some of the monsters are tough enough to challenge Team Evil, and a team of bugbears aren't likely to be anywhere near as powerful as Team Evil.

They may also be the first line of guardians. Note Oona's reaction to the paladins. If beings come along too powerful to fight, they monitor their progress and discover their intentions. Note Oona's Dolphin Bridge analogy.

I assume if some adventurers came along powerful enough to defeat the bugbears their plan would be to scatter, and the warriors would monitor things from a distance while the non-combatants would set up in a safer location. It was only coincidental that the first to come along had a goblinoid on the team.

The other explanation is that they set up shop and Serini let them stay because they effectively serve the same purpose whether they intend to or not.

[Provengreil]

They may also be the first line of guardians. Note Oona's reaction to the paladins. If beings come along too powerful to fight, they monitor their progress and discover their intentions. Note Oona's Dolphin Bridge analogy.

I assume if some adventurers came along powerful enough to defeat the bugbears their plan would be to scatter, and the warriors would monitor things from a distance while the non-combatants would set up in a safer location. It was only coincidental that the first to come along had a goblinoid on the team.

The other explanation is that they set up shop and Serini let them stay because they effectively serve the same purpose whether they intend to or not.

I find the latter far more likely, given Oona's open cooperation with Team Evil. If anything, I expect Serini doesn't want them there but lacks the proper ability to kick them all out. If she dies or leaves they'll slowly but surely grind away the dungeon without her restocking everything. I'd actually be pretty surprised if she was OK with them eating the monsters from the dungeons in the first place, seeing how she interacts with them all.

[Psepha]

Hmm. Considering Serini's knowledge of monsters I wonder if she could recognise what the MITD is... it seems like she knows about tons of different monsters at this point (although it might just be that she learned about the ones she specifically has).

And heck, maybe she'll even be part of finally convincing MITD to break away from Team Evil - if MITD sees how she treats Sunny, or just from her general experience in recruiting monsters to the cause, she might be really helpful there. Especially since Mr Stiffly will be there with her!

[ZhonLord]

I find the latter far more likely, given Oona's open cooperation with Team Evil. If anything, I expect Serini doesn't want them there but lacks the proper ability to kick them all out. If she dies or leaves they'll slowly but surely grind away the dungeon without her restocking everything. I'd actually be pretty surprised if she was OK with them eating the monsters from the dungeons in the first place, seeing how she interacts with them all.

You forget how Oona attacked O-Chul and Lien with zero warning. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1033.html) It's reasonable to think the bugbears would stop non-goblinoids who try to enter the tomb, since Monster Hollow is vital to their survival (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html). They only accepted xykon because he was with Redcloak. I doubt Serini has issue with their presence.

Besides, if the creatures in the Tomb are all sapient enough to agree to defending the Gate, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1283.html) then they have the ability to learn from their fights. And conflict makes for stronger souls, which in this case benefits Fenris. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html) if anything, Serini is effectively training her monsters by having them clash with the bugbears. I seriously doubt the bugbears have successful hunts every time, there's bound to be casualties on both sides of a Hollow Hunt.

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean, it’s worth remembering this is the first couple of encounters. If getting though this was the only criteria, the bugbears probably would have found the Gate decades ago. But if they found it, what would they do with it? They can't cast a ritual.

And heck, maybe she'll even be part of finally convincing MITD to break away from Team Evil - if MITD sees how she treats Sunny, or just from her general experience in recruiting monsters to the cause, she might be really helpful there. Especially since Mr Stiffly will be there with her! Plausible, but I don't think I'll bet any centavos on that.

[Tubercular Ox]

Hmm. Considering Serini's knowledge of monsters I wonder if she could recognise what the MITD is... it seems like she knows about tons of different monsters at this point (although it might just be that she learned about the ones she specifically has).

And heck, maybe she'll even be part of finally convincing MITD to break away from Team Evil - if MITD sees how she treats Sunny, or just from her general experience in recruiting monsters to the cause, she might be really helpful there. Especially since Mr Stiffly will be there with her!

So if the Monster in the Dark is connected to the Snarl, then Redcloak knows what it is from the cloak, Xykon knows what it is from Serini's diary, and Serini knows what it is from adventures she had.

But they don't have to know exactly what it is, they just have to have met something similar. Or maybe a relationship to the Snarl marks a creature in a recognizable way and they know the connection but not the creature.

[danielxcutter]

But if they found it, what would they do with it? They can't cast a ritual.

That was mostly just a point about how bad the security would be in that situation, mixed with a lot of hyperbole.

[Quizatzhaderac]

DM: As your party ventures deeper into the forest you enter an idyllic glade blanketed in wildflowers, with slanting sunbeams swaying in time with the trees in the mid-morning breeze. In the center of the glade stands a white gazebo.

Player 1: I attack. Do we roll initiative?Pro-tip for DM trolling: best to call for the inactive roll yourself because surely the players will be competing to see you gets the best seat in the gazebo.

In the gazebo you see nothing: no love, kindness, mercy, or even acknowledgement that your existence is worthy.

Beside the gazebo you see it's penumbra companion; a shadowy un-thing the proves the power and reach of the light is limited.


Did the forum become obsessed with semantics after the author stopped reading?Weren't we never not obsessed with semantics?

[Metastachydium]

In the gazebo you see nothing: no love, kindness, mercy, or even acknowledgement that your existence is worthy.

Beside the gazebo you see it's penumbra companion; a shadowy un-thing the proves the power and reach of the light is limited.

If I had a hat… It would raise on its very own now. This is objectively that good.


Weren't we never not obsessed with semantics?

I wouldn't say we weren't ever not.

[Fish]

They may also be the first line of guardians.
I should just point out here that the only reason we know anything about the bugbear community is through Oona. We have no idea if what she says about their purpose or their lifestyle is true. We also don’t have evidence (that I’m aware of) that anything she says is false.

As far as we know, or don’t know, Oona could be an agent of Serini, or an impersonation of Sabine; or the bugbears could simply have an agenda of their own that doesn’t involve helping Team Evil.

[DavidSh]

In the gazebo you see nothing: no love, kindness, mercy, or even acknowledgement that your existence is worthy.

Beside the gazebo you see it's penumbra companion; a shadowy un-thing the proves the power and reach of the light is limited.


If I hadn't had prior real-life experience with gazebos, I wonder what I would imagine a gazebo to be. An eye-monster? Some kind of chimera involving a gazelle?

[bunsen_h]

If I hadn't had prior real-life experience with gazebos, I wonder what I would imagine a gazebo to be. An eye-monster? Some kind of chimera involving a gazelle?

There are several imaginings of gaze monsters out there, including something like Sunny.


In the gazebo you see nothing: no love, kindness, mercy, or even acknowledgement that your existence is worthy.

Beside the gazebo you see it's penumbra companion; a shadowy un-thing the proves the power and reach of the light is limited.

Heh.

[gbaji]

Dungeons behind the 'doors in this canyon.'

Only the doors must be in the canyon. Where anything else is located is not relevant. The only relevant issue, once entering a door, is whether or not they are in a dungeon. If the portal leads to The Highcloud Peaks or to The Smallwood, then it could be said that they are no longer exploring a dungeon. However, given D&Ds broad interpretation of what constitutes a dungeon, virtually any structure which contains monsters and treasure is a dungeon.

The full statement was "I would like you to accompany us while we search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon"

The key point is not only that something must be a dungeon, but that it must be a dungeon which is behind the doors in this canyon. A Dungeon that is reached by traveling through a magic portal is *not* behind a door in the canyon.

I would argue that the moment they are entering a completely different dungeon, and one which is not entered by passing through one of the doors in the canyon, the Quinton is no longer obligated to accompany them.

We can argue, for example, that the crossovers (if we assume the Quinton is aware of them) merely transports one to another part of the same dungeon. Teleportation traps exist in dungeons, right? So that doesn't invalidate the search.

But in this case we have a special portal, that does not exist in every dungeon as part of its design, which is clearly stated by Serini as being a reward for succeeding at something (and is presumably what TE is asking the Quinton to search for), but most importantly she says this:

"But now the greatest challenge awaits you. The biggest, toughest, most unfair dungeon of them all!"

This is unambiguously traveling to a new dungeon, not just another part of the one they are already in. This dungeon's entrance is *not* a door in the canyon. Thus, the Quinton will not accompany them into this dungeon. It literally does not match the requirements Redcloak set when asking for its help.



Hmm re Team Evil...

Xykon's immune to ability drain (undead) so Fumblebees are less of an issue (unless it's ability damage, but Serini says "draining"). Redcloak and Xykon aren't item-dependent other than the Crimson Mantle, which is an artifact and so can't be disenchanted (or reading the Disenchanter description, it might be able to be, but Disenchanters don't like to try to eat artifacts as they are too powerful for them - also it surely has Plot Armour). They have nothing that can be rusted (other than maybe Xykon's crown, which will just annoy him - apparently 3.5e Rust Monsters can "rust" gold!). We don't know what a Blue Poet is, but if it's some kind of Lovecraftian horror then it likely won't affect Xykon badly (immune to mind-affecting things and poison). Is it me, or is this rather horrifying encounter not a big threat for Team Evil?

I'd love to see the Knee-Stealers run off with Xykon's patellae, but again that'll probably just annoy him.

I think TE is still somewhat vulnerable to the disenchanters and rust monster. Just not as much as a melee focused group would be. Oona presumbly has weapons and items that are vulnerable to both. We can also assume that both Redcloak and Xykon have gathered up and are using various enchanted rings, and boots, and necklaces, and whatever other stuff folks wear as magic items all the time. Seems pretty unlikely that neither of them have any +X <whatevers> of protection on them, or robes of <whatever>, or rings of <whatever>, or boots of <whatever>. At the level we're talking about, even if not explicitly mentioned, it's reasonably safe to assume they have a number of "regular magic items" on them.

They may not be as dependent on these items as melee characters are (again though, Oona likely is), they're still going to be inconvenienced and it will somewhat reduce their overall capability as a result. Xykon's newly acquired boots are certainly in jeaporady, at least. As is his ring of fire immunity. Likely there are lots of other items we just haven't been told about. I envison all of them complaining bitterly as these "totally unfair!" monsters poof their items. Oona's mace will likely go poof as well.

[brian 333]

The door must be in the canyon. What lies beyond need not be. Entering another dungeon after the first still leaves one behind the door which is in the canyon.

The only out is to either find the object of the search or to quit searching dungeons behind the doors and do something else.

I enter a door in the canyon and explore dungeon 1. I discover access to another dungeon and enter that access. Since I am still exploring dungeons behind the door in the canyon I have not voided the agreement, and the Quinton has to keep a map of where we went. Now I leave the dungeon and explore the polar ice cap looking for 'the real' dungeon. The Quinton does not have to accompany me.

[gbaji]

The door must be in the canyon. What lies beyond need not be. Entering another dungeon after the first still leaves one behind the door which is in the canyon.

Not if the method to enter that dungeon requires something other than walking through a door in the canyon.


The only out is to either find the object of the search or to quit searching dungeons behind the doors and do something else.

Except that Redcloak very specifically did not name the object of their search. Had he done so, and stated something like "search the dungeons behind these doors and all locations accessable within from those dungeons until we find the Gate we're looking for", that would be another issue. But he literally just said to "search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon". Which means that the moment TE attempts to enter a dungeon accessible via any means other the passing through a door in the canyon, the Quinton will not follow.

It's entirely possible that, had he tried to make such an open ended contract without specifying what he was searching for, the Quinton would have refused. Because "search all the dungeons behind these doors, and all locations which may be reached by passing through these dungeons", could potentially be an infinite number of locations. Heck. It's likely the Quinton would have refused even if Redcloak had named what they were looking for. It's too open.


I enter a door in the canyon and explore dungeon 1. I discover access to another dungeon and enter that access. Since I am still exploring dungeons behind the door in the canyon I have not voided the agreement, and the Quinton has to keep a map of where we went. Now I leave the dungeon and explore the polar ice cap looking for 'the real' dungeon. The Quinton does not have to accompany me.

Except that the act of traveling through that "access to another dungeon" is "leaving" the current one. You just left by another exit, right? At that moment, the Quinton is no more required to continue assisting them and mapping for them, as he is for any other dungeon that is accessed by "leaving" one of the dungeons behind the doors in the canyon. The Quinton will only explore dungeons with them if those dungeons are entered by passing through one of the doors in the canyon. That's was quite clearly stated in the agreement.

Any dungeon, entered via any other means, is not within the terms of the agreement.

Again. The key point here is that this portal doesn't just take them to another part of the dungeon they are in, but to a completely different dungeon. That is clearly stated in the Serini-recording, and the Quinton will know this. At which point, they are "leaving" the dungeon they are currently exploring and entering another, but not one that lies "behind the doors in the canyon". Thus, the Quinton will not follow or assist them.

And that's just from a "how would a creature of law interpret this contract" pov. But the same conclusion is arrived at from a "what makes the story work" pov as well. Having the Quinton with them will trivialize the traps and monsters in the Final Dungeon. Ergo, the Quinton will not be with TE in the Final Dungeon. In fact, I'd argue that Rich wrote the dialogue between Redcloak and the Quinton specifically to ensure that the contract would not include it being with TE when they go through the portal into the Final Dungeon. So there's that too.

[brian 333]

I disagree with your analysis.

The contract specified plural dungeons behind the doors in the canyon. It made no mention of the dungeons being in the canyon, and it made no mention of how many dungeons might be accessed via a single door.

Door in canyon? Check.
In a dungeon accessed via one of those doors? Check.

Think of this:

Assume the extra dimensional stone puts a corridor into a para-elemental plane. Your reasoning is that that violates the contract and the Quinton is no longer obligated to serve.

Assume a room of of a corridor is accessible only via a door. Entry through said door, not in the canyon, violates the contract and the Quinton is no longer required to serve.

Assume a tunnel long enough to pass beneath the crest of a hill so that the dungeon is no longer within the canyon. Again, by your reasoning, the Quinton is free of any obligation.

We must assume all of these cases do not apply because of the likelihood that all three have already happened.

Therefore, the answer must be something else. Just as in the Wishing Game, lack of specificity is your friend, and the more specific your agreement, the more ways there are to break it.

Fortunately, Redcloak's agreement was very general and subject to very little interpretation. The dungeons must be behind the doors in the canyon, (accessible via entering a door qualifies,) and the Quinton must serve until all of the dungeons have been searched or until they find the object of their search.

[Fish]

I disagree with your analysis.
I do not think your conclusions are sound. The Quinton will stop being helpful if and when Rich decides it does.

It could say, "This magic portal counts as a door, and it is contained within a dungeon I have committed to search. Therefore, I am bound to explore all of its contents."

It could quibble on the definition of dungeon. "This magic portal qualifies as a door under the terms defined by Muddlebrook's Architectural Digest #55, page 42. However, the space beyond this door is not a dungeon, as it lacks 3 of the 11 necessary components that qualify it as a dungeon under common law. See Dungeons, Looting of, paragraph 6, sub-section C."

It could quibble on the definition of door. "This portal is not a qualifying door, hatch, ingress, egress, aperture, jamb, or threshold as established by the Rheingold Field Test for Extraplanar Connectivity. I cannot proceed."

It could quibble on the definition of in the canyon. "We have reached the outer bounds of the canyon as calculated by the water runoff formula found in Blackcliff's Treatise on Geotopology. I can go no further."

Or it could just say, "Ha ha, you fools, you thought I was a real Quinton here to help you?" *stab stab stab*

We just don't know.

[brian 333]

I do not think your conclusions are sound. The Quinton will stop being helpful if and when Rich decides it does.

With this I agree, (though the assertion of Rhinegold's as an authoritative work is questionable given Tharizdun vs. Brightsteel CY113.)

My point, and I think that of the poster with whom I was debating, is not to dictate to The Author, but to speculate about The Author's intent.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or it could just say, "Ha ha, you fools, you thought I was a real Quinton here to help you?" *stab stab stab*
Do Quinton's breath? If not, then Belkar being baleful polymorphed into a Quinton begins to take shape as an end game option.
Yes, I know, the likelihood is staggeringly small, but it would fit the prophecy (no breathing and no birthday). As a quinton he'd eventually have a hankering to head to the Planes of Law (?? LN ??) and thus "not be long for this world" and yet also not dead.

Yes, I know, that's a reach, but you got me thinking. :smallcool:

As I understand it, Quintons (being outsiders) are not born. They are beings of Law who arise from the plane of law itself ...

[brian 333]

I thought they were promoted from the lower ranks when a superior died and left an opening in a giant bureaucratic hierarchy.

[Fish]

My point, and I think that of the poster with whom I was debating, is not to dictate to The Author, but to speculate about The Author's intent.
Given the various ways that the contract could be dissolved on legalese mumbo jumbo, I think the author’s intent can more easily be divined by narrative analysis. We aren’t shown what threats lie in the dungeons themselves, even to the point of the Giant humorously observing how we are deprived of an expensive and exciting battle scene, but we are shown the threats in the Final Dungeon which Team Evil must face. I therefore find it unlikely that the quinton will be present to help Team Evil to bypass these dangers harmlessly.

[Metastachydium]

If not, then Belkar being baleful polymorphed into a Quinton begins to take shape as an end game option.

That's absolutely not how Baleful Polymorph works. It exclusively produces little innocuous Animals and stuff, not high end Outsiders with Wall of Force at-will.

[Fish]

That's absolutely not how Baleful Polymorph works.
Method aside — and forgetting for the moment that Belkar is singularly unlikely to become an embodiment of Law itself — it does make a certain sense if Belkar were to become some kind of being from the Outer Planes by some means. How exactly that might occur, I don’t know. I don’t remember the d20 lore on how (or if) Chaotic Evil souls are transmogrified into demonic entities. Belkar could technically die and become one of those, perhaps.

[Tzardok]

Method aside — and forgetting for the moment that Belkar is singularly unlikely to become an embodiment of Law itself — it does make a certain sense if Belkar were to become some kind of being from the Outer Planes by some means. How exactly that might occur, I don’t know. I don’t remember the d20 lore on how (or if) Chaotic Evil souls are transmogrified into demonic entities. Belkar could technically die and become one of those, perhaps.

Any soul that enters the Abyss (and isn't eaten or spent by something more terrible) evolves over short or long into one of the lower forms of demon (typically mane, dretch or rutterkin) and participates in the unceasing struggle to become greater and more powerful (or sink and become food), maybe even ascending to demon lord status (as Orcus did).

Of course, Belkar may also end up in Carceri/Tartarus (if he is more evil than chaotic) or in Pandemonium (if he is more chaotic than evil). Souls there may also evolve into local outsiders, but it's a lot less sure than in the Abyss, and the result will be something a lot less fundamental (fundamentally alignened, specifically) than a demon. They are more likely to fuse with the plane itself when transcending their existence.

And of course in OOTS it may work completely differently. After all there wasn't any mention in Roy's afterlife about the possibility of dead souls to become archons.

[gbaji]

I disagree with your analysis.

The contract specified plural dungeons behind the doors in the canyon. It made no mention of the dungeons being in the canyon, and it made no mention of how many dungeons might be accessed via a single door.

That's not a 100% interpretation though. The word choice was "behind", not "beyond". Behind suggests (strongly) that the thing being referred to is directly behind the door in question, and not just something that can be accessed at some later point if one passes through that door.

Additionally, the Quinton is not blind, nor stupid. When he agrees to the contract, he can see all the doors in the canyon. He can infer from the statements made by Redcloak that each door leads to a dungeon, and that these are the dungeons behind the doors that Redcloak wants him to search.


Door in canyon? Check.
In a dungeon accessed via one of those doors? Check.

I'll note that you felt the need to change the wording here. That kinda speaks volumes that you yourself don't believe that the terminology used actually means what you are claiming.

"In a dungeon behind one of the doors in the canyon? Check for the regular dungeons. Not check for the Final Dungeon"



Assume the extra dimensional stone puts a corridor into a para-elemental plane. Your reasoning is that that violates the contract and the Quinton is no longer obligated to serve.

No. Because you are still within a "dungeon behind a door in the canyon". The contract says nothing about where a dungeon is, but that the entrance to that dungeon is one of the doors in the canyon. A simple queston is: "Did I open the door and see a dungeon? If so, am I still in the same dungeon that I saw through the door?". If yes, you continue searching.


Assume a room of of a corridor is accessible only via a door. Entry through said door, not in the canyon, violates the contract and the Quinton is no longer required to serve.

No. Because the cooridor, the door, and the room/cooridor through that door are all within one "dungeon". If that's the same dungeon that was "behind a door in the canyon", then you continue searching.


Assume a tunnel long enough to pass beneath the crest of a hill so that the dungeon is no longer within the canyon. Again, by your reasoning, the Quinton is free of any obligation.

If the tunnel is part of the same dungeon, you continue searching. I would argue that if there was sign saying "now leaving the dungeon" posted there, that the Quinton would stop searching at that point, since you have now reached the edge of a "dungeon behind the doors in the canyon".


We must assume all of these cases do not apply because of the likelihood that all three have already happened.

Sure. But none of those cases violate the terms as I've interpreted them. Encountering a portal that is clearly labeled as leading to another dungeon, does. In the same way that passing through a tunnel with a sign saying "you are now leaving the dungeon", and another sign at the other end saying "you are now entering a new dungeon" would *also* not count under the terms of the serach.

Again. It's really really easy. There is a dungeon on the other side of each door. The Quinton is to search each dungeon behind each door. Any other interpretation could lead to an infinite search, so the Quinton would not interpret the contract that way.


Therefore, the answer must be something else. Just as in the Wishing Game, lack of specificity is your friend, and the more specific your agreement, the more ways there are to break it.

No. Lack of specificity means that the Quinton gets to interpret it as he wishes, not the other way around. I mean, Redcloak can complain and argue, but at the end of the day, it's the Quinton who is both a party to the contract *and* the enforcer of said contract. It's going to determine what is within the bounds of the contract, and I doubt very much it's going to interpret it in a way that extends its job beyond what is reasonable.


Fortunately, Redcloak's agreement was very general and subject to very little interpretation. The dungeons must be behind the doors in the canyon, (accessible via entering a door qualifies,) and the Quinton must serve until all of the dungeons have been searched or until they find the object of their search.

Yeah. The dungeons must be behind the doors in the canyon. The Final Dungeon is behind a portal located within one of the dungeons.

It's not the location of the dungeon that matters, but the location of the entrance to the dungeon that does. The entrance to each dungeon to be searched must be one of the doors in the Canyon. That is by far the most obvious and clear interpretation of the stated terms. You have to really stretch to try to get something else. The problem is, again, the Quinton is the one who is going to determine what is and isn't covered by the terms of the contract. You're literally dealing with a being that isn't going to fall for legal nonsense. And yeah. It was abundantly clear what Redcloak was talking about, and it clearly did not include "Oh yeah. And continue traveling with us if we find any portals that lead to other dungeons too".

[Tubercular Ox]

If the tunnel is part of the same dungeon, you continue searching. I would argue that if there was sign saying "now leaving the dungeon" posted there, that the Quinton would stop searching at that point, since you have now reached the edge of a "dungeon behind the doors in the canyon".


Is it too late to get ahead of Team Evil and hang such a sign? Theoretically, that is. Let's assume Urdook coins an emergency exit strategy without consulting Serini and manages to pull it off. How does that argument go between the Quinton and Redcloak?

[Metastachydium]

Is it too late to get ahead of Team Evil and hang such a sign? Theoretically, that is. Let's assume it's done already, Urdook managed to coordinate an exit sign placement without consulting Serini. How does that argument go between the Quinton and Redcloak?

If the sign is in ink or looks official, there's no argument. Redcloak is Lawful. I'm sure he'd understand (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html).

[Tubercular Ox]

If the sign is in ink or looks official, there's no argument. Redcloak is Lawful. I'm sure he'd understand (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html).

Argh, now I can't go back and edit it to say, "Urdook's emergency exit strategy." Unless I do.

[brian 333]

That's not a 100% interpretation though. The word choice was "behind", not "beyond". Behind suggests (strongly) that the thing being referred to is directly behind the door in question, and not just something that can be accessed at some later point if one passes through that door.

Incidental word choice. In this context both means exactly the same thing, unless your intent is that a corkscrew tunnel that places the adventurer physically in front of the door is also a violation.


No. Because you are still within a "dungeon behind a door in the canyon". The contract says nothing about where a dungeon is, but that the entrance to that dungeon is one of the doors in the canyon. A simple queston is: "Did I open the door and see a dungeon? If so, am I still in the same dungeon that I saw through the door?". If yes, you continue searching.



No. Because the cooridor, the door, and the room/cooridor through that door are all within one "dungeon". If that's the same dungeon that was "behind a door in the canyon", then you continue searching.



If the tunnel is part of the same dungeon, you continue searching. I would argue that if there was sign saying "now leaving the dungeon" posted there, that the Quinton would stop searching at that point, since you have now reached the edge of a "dungeon behind the doors in the canyon".

This is my point exactly. Yes, I agree. Entering a door inside the dungeon and being in a dungeon on the other side does not invalidate the contract.

The fact that it is a second dungeon is not relevant. Nowhere does the contract require there be only one dungeon. Nor does it stipulate that entering a door to access said dungeon invalidates the contract. If the door is in, or even a part of, the dungeon behind the door in the canyon, it definitely does not violate the contract.

Okay, here it is: a portal is nothing more than a door or window. This particular one is a magic door, but it is still only a door, accessed as part of the dungeon behind a door in Monster Hollow. The fact that it might be accessed from other dungeons also behind doors in the canyon is not relevant. It is as much a part of the first dungeon as any non-magical door. Entering it does not violate the contract any more than any other door in the same dungeon.


Yeah. The dungeons must be behind the doors in the canyon. The Final Dungeon is behind a portal located within one of the dungeons.

It's not the location of the dungeon that matters, but the location of the entrance to the dungeon that does.

Exactly. Unless you have to leave the first dungeon and enter the second via a route which is not behind a door in the canyon, the second dungeon is still behind the door in the canyon. The fact of a 'second dungeon' is irrelevant because the contract does not mandate only one dungeon can be accessed per door.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's absolutely not how Baleful Polymorph works. It exclusively produces little innocuous Animals and stuff, not high end Outsiders with Wall of Force at-will.
My mind was actually heading towards True Polymorph (5e style, original printing) that allows a CR = Level creature to be your permanent new self (it wasn't 'until dispelled' is it got changed to that in a case of terminal stupd at WotC .. )
and since this isn't a 5e based strip I just stuck Baleful in (since that is what happened to Bloodfeast).
I'll have to look at 3.5e's SRD later on to see how True Polymorph works in that edition ...

[Tzardok]

There is no spell called "True Polymorph". The closest things would be polymorph any object (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) and shapechange (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm).

[Tubercular Ox]

Polymorph Any Object is the one that would be abused here. Two castings at the first level you can afford it is the traditional way to become anything you want. I think it's level 3 or 4 or so? The first casting changes you, the second makes it permanent, because it's templated in a funny way.

Beholder is a fun choice because then you qualify for Beholder Mage. This is Lord of Procrastination's Dirty Trick #1 (https://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/12/lordofprocrastinations-dirty-tricks.html).

Of course it's questionable whether this would work as imagined under the rules, but I'm not asking for permission to play it.

[The MunchKING]

Polymorph Any Object is the one that would be abused here. Two castings at the first level you can afford it is the traditional way to become anything you want. I think it's level 3 or 4 or so? The first casting changes you, the second makes it permanent, because it's templated in a funny way.

It's an 8th level spell.

[Tubercular Ox]

It's an 8th level spell.

There are rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices) for paying a wizard to cast a spell on you.