Pf gnome paladin is really off the curve in combat

[Glarnog]

Build help/ vent / rant

Tldr: feeling pointless in combat. How do I hit harder, more often, reliably? As a paladin, by what level should I have a flying mount? Ways to make the mount fly? Mount doesn’t have hooves.

Playing in a Pathfinder game of Rise of the Rune Lords. It’s straight PF so no 3. Dnd stuff. Also the DM ruled out Path of War.

I love my character. A gnome 9th level shining knight paladin of Desna. I got lucky and was able to befriend a goblin’s riding lizards pretty early on. The DM has been awesome about my mount, and my character’s back story being worked into the game.

I am digging the story. Really like most of the group of players. I even feel my character is mechanically sound and fairly versatile. I know a few here have said the adventure path isn’t that challenging in combat. We have lost 4 Pcs so far. It's all part of the game. :)

My main problem is that 3 of the players seem really strong. To the point that if I can’t get a charge off I feel there is little reason to bother attacking. And even with it I’m still just doing a fraction of their output.

Not sure of the party’s exact builds. We have a Sorc and Witch. They mostly buff and debuff mixed with AoEs. They’re great. We almost always have haste. It’s the 3 martials that really make me feel ineffective.

We have a dwarf giant killer fighter that seems to be putting out about 45 a hit. With haste that's often like 130+ a full round. He seems to crit pretty often too. And now at 9th level he has an ability to buff his hammer and can fly. I think he can also temporarily designate things as giants.

Next is a monk archer. I’m not sure of his race, but he’s had wings and fly since he joined. I’m not sure how many attacks he gets but it seems like a lot. And even when shots miss he is putting out 100 to 120 points of damage a full round. He crits a lot too. I’m sure that may have to do with the sheer number of attacks. Of course with a Long Bow’s range he hardly has to move more than 5’. Inside smaller distances he gets more bonuses.

There is an inquisitor, I think. He has a whip, combat reflexes and self buffs with different banes a lot. I’m not sure of his damage output, but he’s really effective. He also throws up blesses pretty often, and sometimes prayers.

Then there is my gnome paladin. It’s hard to get charge attacks lined up. So it's inconsistent. When I do without smite my avg is about 45. For a whole round. When I can’t. I’m just doing d6 +7 a hit. So okish if i can full round and all 3 hit, but thats rare. Still feels paltry and not really worth the effort. Especially compared to them. I only get so many smites, And if I’m lucky I may get 2 charges in before whatever it is, is down.

The dwarf’s player has been on me for a while about picking power attack. Funny though, I would have it, but he talked me into Fey Foundling at character gen.

My gnome also has Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge, and just picked up Wheeling Charge. We are 9th level. He’s a shining Knight with:
Str 19, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wiz 10, Chr 18. Those include a belt of str +2 and a head band of chr +2. He’s got a +1 lance, and mammoth armor. Why or Why in a magic high system of Gorlarion, with the many many types of mounted chargers, would they only put those enchantments on Hide? It makes zero damn sense to me. A lot of this system makes zero sense to me. How high you can get skills at low levels. And of course despite the options, some just seem so much more superior. So even when I do hang and bang for my paltry d6 +7, My AC sucks.

The mount is mechanically a giant gecko. Though in the game he's a mix of a riding dog, war horse and a giant gecko. My gnome started with a dog, befriended a goblins gecko, and saved a war horse. For a while they were all helping, then one morning they were all gone and in their place a large cocoon. And out came…

“appears at first glance like a gray pony with a wild mane covering his eyes and tufts of hair concealing his feet. A closer examination reveals that he has slit pupil chameleon eyes and the splayed claws of a gecko under that hair, a nose more appropriate for a
bloodhound, the long snapping tongue of a frog, and a constantly wagging tail. On his back right haunch, a butterfly is faintly branded.

I get that the other players aren’t doing it to me on purpose. That their enjoyment of having combat monsters is fun to them, and sidelining me is just a side effect. Rationally I get that. I get that my would be enjoyment should not come with them being nerfed or forced to play less powerful characters. But it just sucks feeling like even when I’m firing on all cylinders I’m coming up way short.

The DM has said he’ll let me do a complete rebuild or new character or whatever. But for a few reasons I’m of the mind of no. I enjoy my character, I like their story and rp. And to kind of paraphrase Office Space, why should I change, they are the ones that suck. Also makes me feel like a failure. And I haven’t played a paladin much before and don’t have much interest in anything else atm. I guess after 30 years of various games I’ve lost a bit of imagination on new ideas for already used classes.

So I’m in a bad place. My feelings of inadequacies during combat are not subtle. And it’s not fair or right for me to let my attitude affect the rest of the group. I am of the mind of quitting. I don’t want to. I do enjoy the game. The adventure parth. Most of the other players. And especially the DM. This is also one of my few social outlets atm. One of the players I've known for 20 years, another for 10 or more, the DM and another player for at least 6. They fill empty spots quickly. So most likely it would be many years before I could come back. The DM very much wants me to stay in the game. He’s been awesome. He understands where I’m coming from but thinks I contribute just fine.

The whole party but me can fly now. I usually run with the first level spells Hero’s Defiance and Word of Resolve. And at 2nd lvl Paladin’s Sacrifice and Saddle Surge. If we are doing water stuff I swap SS for the one that makes my mount aquatic. I think I’ve maybe used each spell only once or twice. Currently I temporarily can’t cast, I sacrificed ( to death) to save the dwarf. Just 3 of us were up and we were being rushed by lots of giants from several directions at once. Besides the crit that would have killed the dwarf, the dwarf and inquisitor didn’t have much of a problem.

Maybe I should look at different spells? Some that are like self buffs? Vs. trying to be an emergency kit for the party?

But any help, or advice or thoughts are welcome.

Until I can figure out how to get my mount to fly, maybe I should trade Fey Foundling for Power attack? Maybe see if I get my Str up any? I wanted a high chr for the saves. Pick some different spells, not sure which ones though?

I am sorry for the length. And the ranting and venting. The body seems a little disjointed too.

Thanks all.

[exelsisxax]

Nobody can help yet. to summarize: you don't understand what anyone else is playing, how their builds work, what gear or magic they use, and how any of those are contributing to their effect in combat. Nor do you seem to understand how your own build choices contribute to your current state of negligible impact.

To exacerbate the issue, the party is huge and will stomp early APs - I would not be surprised at all to see that combats often end before the first round finishes with that much DPR. There seems to be some homebrew floating around at the same time as you appear to be quite significantly under WBL.

I suggest reading some paladin guides. It may shed some light on why you're useless in combat (yes, you should have taken power attack).

If you can provide full accountings of the build, itemization, and combat actions of every party member, someone can tell you exactly how they are doing so well and why you're doing so badly (and also likely where the GM is handing out weird homebrew or people are breaking rules).

[Rynjin]

Your friend was right about picking up Fey Foundling at 1 (it's literally the only time you can take it, and I'm willing to bet it's a big contributor to why your character is not one of the dead ones), and he's equally right that you should have long since taken Power Attack.

You've built your character as a, pun intended, one trick pony and are suffering when you can't do your one trick. It's past time to get some more generally powerful Feats like Power Attack instead of chasing further and further down the Mounted Combat rabbithole. Especially in large part because Power Attack will ALSO make your mounted charges exponentially more powerful.

You just hit 9, so I'm guessing Wheeling Charge (which is mostly useless anyway) isn't fully locked in. Taking Power Attack instead instantly jumps your d6+7 damage to a d6+16. You literally double your damage with one Feat.

Having a better weapon also helps. +1 is way too low at level 9; you're expect to have around a +3 at that point, +2 at least.

And, finally, you've already admitted your character does as much or more damage as everyone else when Smiting. Do so more proactively. Paladins are designed as "boss killers". They're not amazing at slaying mooks, but a single Evil boss? You have the ability to annihilate them.

Have to jump to a meeting but I can give more advice later.

[Kurald Galain]

I think there was an archetype (or maybe oath) that gives more smite evil per day. Your damage should be competitive while smiting, so the obvious step is to retrain to that.

Aside from that, yes, the weakness of any charge build is that in some combats you just can't charge.

[Raven777]

That would be Oath of Vengeance, but it is not compatible with Shining Knight (both replace Aura of Justice).

[Remuko]

are you remembering your armor's ability? i looked up the armor and on successful charge you should be adding 4d6 damage. on top of your 1d6+7 thats a decent boost

also mammoth hide is +3 hide armor so AC bonus +7. youre mounted with a lance, so you could be using a shield too, if said shield was enchanted you would have above 20 AC, and thats without an amulet of natural armor or ring of protection etc (im fairly certain pathfinder still has those). but the other reason AC is lacking is just yeah, Hide armor isn't good. if you want good AC you should be wearing something heavier than hide armor.

[Maat Mons]

Technically, I think you can wear two suits of armor. If I’m remembering correctly, you gain the better armor bonus of the two, take the worse armor check penalty, and only benefit from the magical properties on one of them.

If your DM is amenable to helping you out with the character, maybe they’d allow you to commission a custom item that’s a suit of full plate, but with the benefits normally reserved for Mammoth Hide armor?

If you want, you can choose to wield your lance in one hand while mounted. It would decrease your damage, but you could use a heavy shield. Honestly, I’d prefer the damage though.

I’m not sure how well a flying mount works with charging. Your mount needs to roll a DC 20 Fly check to pull a quick 180.

[Firechanter]

For the most part I can only second what my esteemed colleagues have already stated. Fey Foundling is fantastic on a Paladin, and Power Attack is also pretty much a must-have for Str-based characters.

Small mounted builds are a thing I suppose, and there are handbooks out there on how to make them shine, but they may actually be 3.5 vintage.
And I gotta say, personally I've never been a fan. With a Strength based build you are struggling against your race's strength penalty from Day 1 til Evermore. Maybe Finesse and the subsequent feats would help, but the gnome doesn't get a Dex bonus either (as opposed to halfling) so I'm not sure it's even worth it.

As for Flying: from level 10 on you will be able to cast Angelic Aspect (or right now if you can buy a wand), that will get you sorted -- but not your mount. Otherwise, since your GM seems to be willing to accomodate you, see if you can't have Lizard-shoes of the Zephyr custom made. ;)

[Seerow]

So it sounds like your feats are

1) Fey Foundling
3) Mounted Combat
5) Ride-By Attack
7) Spirited Charge
9) Wheeling Charge

Equipment noted is
+1 Lance (2000gp)
Mammoth Hide armor (12,000gp)
+2 Str Belt (4000gp)
+2 Cha Helm (4000gp)

Total: 22,000gp
Expected Wealth By Level: 46,000gp

So you've got a mounted combat Archetype, 4 of your 5 feats at this point are dedicated to charging on a mount, as well as more than 50% of your spent wealth, and half your wealth appears to be completely unspent... and you are shocked when you are not effective outside of charging on your mount?


Fey Foundling actually is a great feat, it makes you a much more efficient target for heals, so if you are on the front line tanking, it is invaluable. Especially since it gives such an outsized benefit to your Lay on Hands. But with your focus on mounted combat, I suspect you are not doing a lot of tanking, and in turn not really seeing the benefit of that. I'd probably look at retraining Fey Foundling and Wheeling Charge both. So you keep Spirited Charge. Get Power Attack and some other offensive option that will be always on for you. Furious Focus is a good option to keep your accuracy up while power attacking, and will make your mounted charges even more devastating while keeping your damage up in other situations.

I'd also be curious to see the stats of your Mount. You said mechanically it's a Giant Gecko, but I can't find PF stats for Giant Gecko as an animal companion, so I suspect there's some amount of homebrew at play. Either way, remember that your mount can attack and deal damage too, and should be close to as effective at it as you. But it is your class feature, it is a part of your overall power. Consider at this level a regular Warhorse has at this level 23 strength and +6 BAB. It gets +13 Bite (1d4+6) and +11 2 Hooves (1d6+3), even before considering any of its 4 feats (which you get to customize) or any magic items you choose to equip it with. I would hope whatever homebrew creation your DM has come up with is at least as effective.


On another note, 19 strength at level 9 feels really low. Typically you'd start with an 18 in your prime stat after racial adjustment, have +2 from level and +2 from item by now, for a total of 22. As a gnome you've got a penalty to strength, so I am guessing you started with a 17, went down to 15, then buffed back up from there... but being down 4 strength (or +2 to hit +3 to damage) compared to a more typical character of your level is also going to feed into feeling weaker than average.


For AC, the Mammoth Hide Armor just isn't worth it. You're spending a ton of money and tanking your AC for +4d6 damage on a charge that doesn't multiply. With spirited charge on a lance, you should already be annihilating anything you charge without that, the extra 4d6 is a waste. (once you have power attack we're looking at 3d6+48 without smite, 3d6+75 while smiting). I'd drop it altogether in favor of a suit of O-Yoroi (to take advantage of your 14 dex). Plain O-Yoroi costs about 10k less than your Mammoth Armor and provides 1 more AC. That 10k gold can be re-invested into +1 Ring of Deflection, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, and +2 Enhancement on the armor. That all adds up to 8k gold, so you can have 2k left over and go from 20 AC (7 armor 2 dex 1 size) to 25 AC (10 armor, 2 dex, 1 deflect 1 natural 1 size). Also don't forget your AC goes up when Smiting.

I'd also point out how under wealth you are to the DM unless you have other major magic items you haven't brought to our attention. Another 24k gold pieces worth of gear can easily get you a lot more offense/defense.

Just doing a quick look through Paladin Archetypes that are compatible with Shining Knight, Empyreal Knight may interest you. It gives up a lot of the normal Paladin goodies (no lay on hands or divine grace), which hurts, but gain a bunch of passive resistances, give your mount the Celestial Template and at level 12 wings, and gives you the ability to summon more celestials to your side. Might not be your jam but seemed worth mentioning.




tl;dr: Trade out at least 1-2 feats for PA+Furious Focus. Use your money better and find out why you have so little money. Make sure you are using your mount in combat for more than just personal mobility, it should be nearly as effective as eating faces as you are when not smiting.

Oh and I didn't mention it above, but don't forget you are a spellcaster even if it's few spells per day. Even if you only have 5 spells per day, that's enough for one buff spell per combat in an average day which can help a lot. Also you have lots of casters in your party, don't be afraid to ask for buff spells to help you out!

[Kurald Galain]

Small mounted builds are a thing I suppose, and there are handbooks out there on how to make them shine, but they may actually be 3.5 vintage.
They are a thing, mainly because a small character's mount fits in a regular dungeon, and a medium character's mount does not.

And they work fine, really. Being small sized is a -2 to damage, but using Inquisitor's Bane or Paladin Smite or Magus Shocking Grasp more than compensates for that.

[Gnaeus]

I'd drop it altogether in favor of a suit of O-Yoroi (to take advantage of your 14 dex). Plain O-Yoroi costs about 10k less than your Mammoth Armor and provides 1 more AC. That 10k gold can be re-invested into +1 Ring of Deflection, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, and +2 Enhancement on the armor. That all adds up to 8k gold, so you can have 2k left over and go from 20 AC (7 armor 2 dex 1 size) to 25 AC (10 armor, 2 dex, 1 deflect 1 natural 1 size). Also don't forget your AC goes up when Smiting.

Note that this assumes that you can sell things for full market value, or buy those things crafted at half price, or that in some other way when you drop your WBL it magically readjusts. I would expect exactly 0 of those things in most games. Maybe the crafting for one or 2 of the items.

You should absolutely be packing self buffs. Both the Inquisitor and Witch have a lot more slots than you and can do a better job patching wounds. You should be picking spells to solve combat problems for yourself.

[Seerow]

Note that this assumes that you can sell things for full market value, or buy those things crafted at half price, or that in some other way when you drop your WBL it magically readjusts. I would expect exactly 0 of those things in most games. Maybe the crafting for one or 2 of the items.

Given the OP indicated his DM is allowing for a full character rebuild, I would assume that trading out equipment for equal value is on the table. I agree that would not be a standard assumption in most games.

[Seward]

So, I've played PF1 with a size small charge based build, although mine had a baby roc for a mount and a feat setup helped greatly with getting spirited charge as a monk bonus feat so it came together much easier than a paladin build. Still there are things you can do to help your situation.

So, in general a build of your type does damage two ways.

1. You are next to an enemy and full attack plus get your mount's attack sequence.
2. You charge.

As others said, power attack should be worked in ASAP. The power attack bonus is multiplied by spiritual charge when charging, and by multiple attacks when not. Given that you have Haste reliably present, you sould be getting five attacks minimum when next to an opponent (two primary iteratives, your second iterative and, likely after a 5' step because of your lance, two mount attacks). This should be respectable, although it's better if your mount is more badass (high strength, multiple attacks etc). You can actually use a size large mount as a size small person if you want to, which may open up beefier mounts or those with better offense.

That said, there is some tactical stuff at L9 that might help. You will generally be more effective when charging because you are far less affected by damage reduction and are working with your highest attack mod (and don't rely on the mount to contribute to offense, which given your mount is probably not that much). Any charge based build at level 9, mounted or otherwise, should be looking for a way to start most combat encounters air walked. Do what you need to do to get your party cleric to rack the spell and use it on your mount before any expected series of encounters, especially in enclosed areas. It will let you stay above your other party memembes so they don't block your charges, or charge past smaller enemies to get at a more dangerous threat. A single L4 spell slot in a large party at L9 cast before combat isn't too bad an ask, and you can ease the pain eventually by adding a pearl of power 4, or even now with a lesser rod of extend to help the cleric (or druid) with keeping lower level spell buffs up, making the loss of a L4 slot to help you seem like a fair trade.

For the encounters when Air Walk (or fly or an equivalent) isn't running, you should try to be in front of the party, and charge with rideby to be not in the main scrum after your first action, always with an eye to clear charge lanes. If you have a choice of opponent, pick one you can either one-shot or engage away from the main scrum where your other melee types find their targets..you should be more mobile and better at target selection than anybody but the archer.

If charging is still problematic you need to pick a beefy enemy and get into full attack range. If you are receiving more than haste (inspire courage, righteous wrath of the faithful...anything that adds to damage) your mount and iteratives might do more damage than you expect. Given your monk's damage output the party may well be getting stuff in those lines. If such bonuses are extra dice rather than flat damage bonuses it might even outshine your spirited charge damage on enemies that you can reliably hit and lack effective damage reduction.

And yeah. Save your smites for enemies that are actually dangerous to the party. in Pathfinder, smites last for multiple attacks so agains, you may not need to charge to do respectable damage if you can full attack, so think hard about your placement and movement every turn.

[Elvensilver]

As a short fix as you yourself have proposed, maybe look at your spell selection.

It seems like right now, you're using at least half of your spells to keep your allies up and running (word of resolve, PaladinÂ’s sacrifice). Which is great, seems in-character for a paladin and may even be necessary, seeing that your party seems to lack a dedicated divine caster (an inquisitor can only do so much and witches are pretty lackluster healers/ status removers). So when your DM said you're contrubuting just fine, maybe that's what he meant - without you, way more of your allies would be dead. That's quite a contribution!

But if you want to increase your damage, consider learning Litany of Righteousness (2nd level). Doubles your damage to an evil creature for a round. So, with charge and smite, that's 90 damage, without changing your build.

Maybe get a pearl if power or two. For first and second level, they're quite cheap and they could help you to both self-buff and save your allies with your limited slots.

Also, to reiterate what Seward proposed: ask the witch or sorcerer to cast Fly on your mount. If they always keep you all hasted, hopefully they can also contribute Fly, it's just a 3rd level slot at level 9. With flying and thus clear charge-lines, retraining Wheeling Charge for Power Attack (as everyone already proposed) seems like a good idea.

[Gnaeus]

It seems like right now, you're using at least half of your spells to keep your allies up and running (word of resolve, PaladinÂ’s sacrifice). Which is great, seems in-character for a paladin and may even be necessary, seeing that your party seems to lack a dedicated divine caster (an inquisitor can only do so much and witches are pretty lackluster healers/ status removers). So when your DM said you're contrubuting just fine, maybe that's what he meant - without you, way more of your allies would be dead. That's quite a contribution!


I have no idea what this means. The Inquisitor should have like 4 times your spells per day. Witch more than 5x, with some hexes to give them the gas to prep some specialty spells. Its no healing oracle, but its way way better than a paladin.

[Seward]

Also, to reiterate what Seward proposed: ask the witch or sorcerer to cast Fly on your mount. If they always keep you all hasted, hopefully they can also contribute Fly, it's just a 3rd level slot at level 9. With flying and thus clear charge-lines, retraining Wheeling Charge for Power Attack (as everyone already proposed) seems like a good idea.

The reason I suggested air walk was that the duration is so much longer it can normally be cast out of combat when trouble is expected and stays up. However in a party with a sorcerer that has fly, they often have enough spell slots to pro-actively cast it more frequently through the day. The main problem with fly is that it is more likely to have to be cast in combat, which costs precious standard actions from both sorcerer and likely also prevent a round 1 Paladin charge (as they'll start on the ground and still have charge lanes blocked, plus gaining altitude while charging isn't normally possible if slope is too extreme, althoug a mount that jumps well might manage to pull it off)

Basically if you don't start a fight flying you're better served to just be in front of your party and pick a victim and charge path to allow follow up charges (or full attacks if an enemy closes with you) than to try to get an action from a caster to help you out, unless the terrain is completely unsuitable for charging without it. On say, a ship, or in a swamp or vs flying enemies or whatever a fly spell might be worth the time in combat, but it might work better in such an emergency to carry a potion yourself, administer it to mount and use its actions to gain altitude that first round, freeing the sorcerer to do something that helps the party as a whole.

Actually a witch can prep water walk which would help in a swamp or aquatic situation nearly as much as air walk although not as much in other terrains. Noncore paladin has a few spells that help with bad terrain too (eg Aquatic Mount, an hour/level spell which does what it says on the tin). Air walk though is a better option than most, due to duration and also no need to deal with the special flying and fly spell rules (which include falling out of they sky if stunned, needing a fly skill check to do certain maneuvers, can't to a run maneuver with fly spell, need a trick to teach a non intelligent mount to fly etc). But if the party lacks a primary divine caster access to that spell is problematic. Aside from Cleric, Oracle and Druid only Alchemist gets the spell, limiting even solutions like a wand to the realm of UMD.

There's a reason both charge builds I played (one mounted, one pounced based) for real in 3.5 and Pathfinder had their own access to air walk. It's harder if you need to rely on your party. Honestly I always thought Air Walk should at least be on the Paladin spell list, if only to allow scroll/wand use until higher level spell slots are available.