Leveling up an Owlbear. What feat?

[Jay R]

I'm leveling up an owlbear from 5 hit dice to 8 hit dice. What new feat do you recommend for her?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

More details, maybe? What's the situation? What sources are available? What're the owlbear's stats thus far? Is it a companion, a PC, or a monster? What's its alignment? Is it leveling up with racial HD or class levels? Does it have any magic items or spells it can cast?

[Seerow]

Standard options would be Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack, or Improved Grapple.

Keep in mind if you get one more HD, that's where they go huge and you'll see an actually notable improvement.

[Biggus]

Standard options would be Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack, or Improved Grapple.


You need Improved Unarmed Strike to take Improved Grapple. The other two are good though.

[Jay R]

More details, maybe? What's the situation? What sources are available? What're the owlbear's stats thus far? Is it a companion, a PC, or a monster? What's its alignment? Is it leveling up with racial HD or class levels? Does it have any magic items or spells it can cast?

I'm the DM. All sources are available, but the game is mostly core. All of my players are long-term D&D players in their first game of 3.5e. At 8th level, none of them have prestige Classes. That's their choice, not mine, primarily because they don't know the system. The druid wants to turn into an owlbear. They have an item that grants three unintentional wishes. [You cannot choose to wish on it, but it pays attention.]

So she can turn into an owlbear. But an owlbear in 3.5e is less useful than a brown bear or polar bear, and I want the wish to be valuable. She made the wish at 8th level, so I need an 8 hit die owlbear.

Owlbears are neutral, and so is the druid (although in practical terms, she's neutral good.]

I'm increasing it with racial HD, according to the Monster Manual. I increased its BA from 5 to 8, its strength from 21 to 22, and its saving throw bases from +4, +4. +1 to +6, +6, +2, all according to the book.

All I'm really missing is the feat.


Standard options would be Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack, or Improved Grapple.

Good ideas, Unless somebody comes up with something better, I'll probably go with Improved Natural Attack, since I can put it in the build and she won't have to think about it.


Keep in mind if you get one more HD, that's where they go huge and you'll see an actually notable improvement.

I'm aware. But she asked for it at 8th level, and she couldn't turn into a 9 HD owlbear.

[NontheistCleric]

What about Animal Devotion? For just one minute a day, this owlbear can gather up its strength and use those feathers to fly!

[tyckspoon]

Wildshape does not normally grant feats of the target form (based on Alternate Form, which does not give feats unless the ability accessing it specifically says so) so RAW it doesn't really matter. If you want to make it nicer for the player (as an additional benefit of the Wish-granted form access) or have already ruled Wildshapes to work differently then I'd probably go with Improved Natural Attack: Claws as the simplest thing to implement since as mentioned it can just be folded into the statblock on the attack info. Multiattack (basically making the Bite more accurate on a full attack) would be similar.


You need Improved Unarmed Strike to take Improved Grapple. The other two are good though.
Owlbears get Improved Grab, which does half of what you'd want Improved Grapple for anyways, and a Large critter with 22 Strength probably doesn't have a huge need for the +4 to grapple checks benefit anyways. At least not when trying to grapple things that are normally good grapple targets - suppose it'd make a difference if the player wanted to go wrestling trolls or something.

[Firechanter]

If it has enough strength, Awesome Blow is a monster ability I don't appreciate as a player. Needs 25 Str and Improved Bull Rush. It's a PF feat however.

[Inevitability]

You need Improved Unarmed Strike to take Improved Grapple. The other two are good though.

So in Oriental Adventures, page 143, it states:


Certain monster special abilities count as feats for purposes of meeting prerequisites for other feats. A monster with any natural attack form is considered to have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

This is 3.0 content, but it's not directly contradicted by anything from the 3.5 update, so it might still apply. In that case, you'd be able to take Improved Grapple.

[Biggus]

So in Oriental Adventures, page 143, it states:

This is 3.0 content, but it's not directly contradicted by anything from the 3.5 update, so it might still apply. In that case, you'd be able to take Improved Grapple.

OK thank you, I did not know that.

[Metastachydium]

If it has enough strength, Awesome Blow is a monster ability I don't appreciate as a player. Needs 25 Str and Improved Bull Rush. It's a PF feat however.

No it isn't? I mean, it probably is a feat in PF as well, but it's also a Core 3.5 feat from the MM.

[Firechanter]

No it isn't? I mean, it probably is a feat in PF as well, but it's also a Core 3.5 feat from the MM.

Ah thanks for clearing that up, I didn't bother to check tbh

[rel]

An Owlbear is a pretty standard bruiser, weaknesses are lack of mobility, and a poor will save.

Iron Will or Steadfast Determination to boost the poor will save. Or Quick Recovery to mitigate the effects of failures.

Someone suggested Animal Devotion for a fly speed, which is solid. Star Spawn is another possibility, althou it comes with a large feat tax.

[H_H_F_F]

Wildshape does not normally grant feats of the target form (based on Alternate Form, which does not give feats unless the ability accessing it specifically says so) so RAW it doesn't really matter.

I feel like we're sort of ignoring this point.

OP: Reread wild shape - your druid keeps their own feats! Their own skill points, their own HP, their own special qualities, their own BaB, their own Basic Saves, their own HD. Everything.

They get the movement modes, the size, the natural attacks, the [ex] special attacks, Str, Dex, Con, appearance obviously...

But if you've been taking away your player's feats or HD every time they've turned into a mouse, you've been playing with a houserule weakening them significantly, which you might want to reconsider.

[NontheistCleric]

I kind of assumed it was an 'undesirable wish' kind of scenario, where the druid suddenly finds her statistics entirely replaced with that of the owlbear for some time. It seemed to fit with the non-deliberate nature of the wishes.

[Jay R]

I kind of assumed it was an 'undesirable wish' kind of scenario, where the druid suddenly finds her statistics entirely replaced with that of the owlbear for some time. It seemed to fit with the non-deliberate nature of the wishes.

No, it's a "grant the player the cool thing she saw in the movie" scenario, without giving the over-powered ability of a wish. I knew she kept her own feats (otherwise Natural Spell has no meaning). I just sort of vaguely assumed that she got the entire physical attacks of the creature.

I gave her the stats last night, and won't take away what I've already given, so her claws will continue to have Improved Natural Attack.

We all have decades of D&D experience. But the biggest weakness of this game is that I'm the only one with previous 3.5e experience, and there are lots of roles I've never played, so there are big holes in my knowledge base..

Everybody, thanks for the advice, and for adding to my knowledge.

[CE DM]

improved grapple will still require a dexterity of 13+ ,while owlbears usually have only 13

Here are a few versions of 3.5e MM owlbears advanced to 8 HD. I'd likely do more than simply add 3 HD (+1 CR)...the lack of owl senses, etc, well, lets say I always felt the owlbear entry could have been much better & scarier. in any event, some simple ones:

OWLBEAR, advanced (dreadwood)
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 8d10+40 (92 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+18
Attack: Claw +13 melee (1d6+6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +13 melee (1d6+6) and bite +11 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +9
Feats: Alertness, Track, multi-attack
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–8)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an owlbear must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

dreadwood is home to owlbears of above average size & ferocity

OWLBEAR, advanced (Silvermist wood owlbear)
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 8d10+40 (92 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+22
Attack: Claw +13 melee (1d6+6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +13 melee (1d6+6) and bite +8 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +9, Spot +4
Feats: Track, improved grapple, earth's embrace
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–8)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an owlbear must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Silvermist wood owlbears rely far more on their hearing and smell than eyesight, given the magical fog that shrouds the wood. in combat, they are intent on grappling & if possible, pinning prey (crushing bearhug would do d6+d12+6/round I believe)


OWLBEAR, advanced (badlands wanderer)
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 8d10+48 (100 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+17
Attack: Claw +12 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +12 melee (1d6+5) and bite +7 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +8
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +9
Feats: endurance, steadfast determination, hibernate
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–8)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an owlbear must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

owlbear that hunts in scrub lands or badlands, more pursuit/sight oriented, tough, stubborn, but also bounces back fast from abuse.


OWLBEAR, advanced (hobgoblin fighting-pit beast)
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 8d10+40 (92 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+18
Attack: Claw + melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +13 melee (1d6+5) and bite +11 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Listen + 6, Spot +7
Feats: Blind fight, multi-attack, improved initiative
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–8)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an owlbear must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

combat monster...perhaps used in pit fights?


Hibernate (DR313 p30)
[General]
Constitution 13
Endurance
If you sleep for 8 uninterrupted hours, you regain 2x your Character level in hit-points –and– 2 points of ability damage to each affected score.
If you sleep for 24 uninterrupted hours, you regain 4x your Character level in hit-points –and– 4 points of ability damage to each affected score.

[Jay R]

Here are a few versions of 3.5e MM owlbears advanced to 8 HD. I'd likely do more than simply add 3 HD (+1 CR)...the lack of owl senses, etc, well, lets say I always felt the owlbear entry could have been much better & scarier. in any event, some simple ones:

Yup. Pretty much the same approach I took. The only thing that seems off to me is the claw attack. It should be +14, not +13. [BAB +8, STR +6.] I made the same mistake at first, updating it for the BAB and forgetting to adjust for the STR. I only caught it on the second proofreading.

[Remuko]

Yup. Pretty much the same approach I took. The only thing that seems off to me is the claw attack. It should be +14, not +13. [BAB +8, STR +6.] I made the same mistake at first, updating it for the BAB and forgetting to adjust for the STR. I only caught it on the second proofreading.

8 BAB + 6 Str = 14 yes but its large so theres -1 from size so +13 should be correct.

[HunterOfJello]

A feat that matches up with what her intentions are for turning into an owlbear.

Is it just because she wants to copy Baldur's Gate 3 and fall on people for massive damage?
If so, I'd just give her a Gliding(Ex) special ability like Raptorans get at level 1.


If it was me and I felt uncomfortable because Owlbears lag behind Polar Bears so much, I'd slap on a template. Something thematic like Magebred or Spellwarped (minus the Aberration bit).
Owlbears are supposed to be a fusion between a bear and an owl anyway.

For Spellwarped I'd not change to Aberration and remove the SR. I'd make the SR results something that happens in another situation or can occur a number of times per day.



If I wanted to make things interesting I'd use Feral or Winged (Savage Species).
"You gain the ability to wildshape into an Owlbear. However, you can fly!"

[Seerow]

Honestly been thinking about this a lot over the last few days since seeing this thread. Even went and double checked the Owlbear statblock in PF and... yeah Owlbears are just a great fantasy concept with fun art, and a really boring statblock. The main difference between an Owlbear and a Grizzly Bear is the Owlbear is a magical beast so gets better BAB. As far as wildshaping, a player wildshaping into a grizzly but saying they're an owlbear would lose nothing, which feels really bad.

Which is to say I think I prefer Hunter of Jello's approach here, figure out what she's trying to get out of "Owlbear" and make it do that.

Personally if I were redesigning the Owlbear I'd give it a raptoran style glide ability, as well as a limited high jump (think like a chicken flapping to get higher but not quite managing to fly) or climb speed (to be able to get up into trees to glide down from). Add on a special powerful-charge style ability that triggers when charging while gliding and you've got yourself a scary mobile ambush predator with a pretty unique skillset.

[Jay R]

A feat that matches up with what her intentions are for turning into an owlbear.

Is it just because she wants to copy Baldur's Gate 3 and fall on people for massive damage?


Which is to say I think I prefer Hunter of Jello's approach here, figure out what she's trying to get out of "Owlbear" and make it do that.

What she wants is what she saw in the D&D movie -- a druid turning into an owlbear and overwhelming ordinary people.

I've already sent it to her. I leveled the owlbear up to 8th level (my thanks to CE DM and Remuko for catching my mistake. I gave her the Improved Natural Attack feat so I could just build it into the stat block. [First suggested by Seerow.]

Thank you to everyone who replied. Not only did I successfully create a more impressive owlbear, I now know far more about the leveling up process thanks to your far-ranging answers.