Cloister spell[spoilers]

[RyuTakarashi]

After seeing todays strip I doubt that cloister doesn't allow people to leave or enter city. Why? Because of the supplies carried by slaves. Plantations and farms take hundreds of acres. They aren't positioned inside of walls. So slaves need to leave city to get them.Question may arise:If cloister allows to leave the city why :haley: hasn't escaped from AC yet? I think that maybe because she thought that leaving all those people to :redcloak: is bad.

[Tempest Fennac]

She claims to be Chaotic Goodish, so 'd say she's probably staying in order to help the other people who are stranded there. Besides, the spell may be designed so that you can only leave if Xykon authorises it.

[The Extinguisher]

Or there might be, you know, guards at the entrances.

[The Wanderer]

After seeing todays strip I doubt that cloister doesn't allow people to leave or enter city. Why? Because of the supplies carried by slaves. Plantations and farms take hundreds of acres. They aren't positioned inside of walls. So slaves need to leave city to get them.Question may arise:If cloister allows to leave the city why :haley: hasn't escaped from AC yet? I think that maybe because she thought that leaving all those people to :redcloak: is bad.

Or the person casting Cloister can decide who gets in and who doesn't.

Hobs leave AC and get locals to bring food in. Everyone else is trapped.

[FrostXian]

Cloister is not a SELF prison spell, the caster may leave when he feels like it, same goes for people he sees as allies and permits.

[Neopolis]

Or there might be, you know, guards at the entrances.
Because Haley would have great trouble sneaking past a few hobgoblins.

[Ruduen]

I seriously doubt that they'd have a problem with a few guards. However, it's extremely difficult to tell what's happened.

All we know for sure about the spell is that it's blocking scrying and magical contact. However, there's a distinct posibility that it's only blocking magical methods. We have no real way of knowing if it blocks physical leaving or now. However, considering they're still getting supplies, it's certain that there's at least SOME way of getting out.

And assuming Haley COULD get out, I doubt she'd leave without Belkar. I mean, would you leave Belkar in a city where stealth is required and there are resistance members? I can't imagine it working out well. Plus, they'd still have to transport Roy's body out, which would make things a bit more difficult. Not to mention, even if they COULD get out, they can't do it by sea, with all of the boats gone. And what is there by land? A lot of flat, featureless plains. That's not exactly ideal hiding conditions, and Xykon or Redcloak would probably find them fast.

[The Wanderer]

All we know for sure about the spell is that it's blocking scrying and magical contact. However, there's a distinct posibility that it's only blocking magical methods. We have no real way of knowing if it blocks physical leaving or now. However, considering they're still getting supplies, it's certain that there's at least SOME way of getting out.

And assuming Haley COULD get out, I doubt she'd leave without Belkar. I mean, would you leave Belkar in a city where stealth is required and there are resistance members? I can't imagine it working out well. Plus, they'd still have to transport Roy's body out, which would make things a bit more difficult. Not to mention, even if they COULD get out, they can't do it by sea, with all of the boats gone. And what is there by land? A lot of flat, featureless plains. That's not exactly ideal hiding conditions, and Xykon or Redcloak would probably find them fast.

All true, but I think they would have either tried something or found an opportunity by now. Or, once they realized they weren't getting magical contact, have one stay inside the city with Roy's body while the other hid outside and just waited for contact.

If they could get out, I think they would have found a way to allow V and Durkon to contact them by now.

[Ruduen]

All true, but I think they would have either tried something or found an opportunity by now. Or, once they realized they weren't getting magical contact, have one stay inside the city with Roy's body while the other hid outside and just waited for contact.

If they could get out, I think they would have found a way to allow V and Durkon to contact them by now.

There are multiple possibilities I could see on why they might not be able to do this.

1. Haley doesn't trust Belkar outside alone. Considering Belkar, he'd probably hightail it out of there if left alone, since there's really nothing left for him. And that would require him to drag Roy's body out anyways. If they can't easily get Roy's body there, it might be an issue.

2. They don't know that contact's blocked. I mean, it's possible that they're unaware Xykon's cast a spell that's preventing magical contact. Since they might not have the means to send outgoing magic, it's possible they think the others haven't tried yet.

3. They're staying due to the resistance. I mean, Haley's staying due to her alignment, and Belkar's staying since he'd probably be dead soon if he tried to run, or Haley's keeping him there by keeping Roy's body.

Of course, we can't be sure.

[RMS Oceanic]

I always figured that Cloister was an Epic-Level Abjuration Spell that blocked all nonepic magical effects that attempted to transverse the boundries of the spell, primarily Divination spells, teleportation/gating spells and magical communication spells. I'm pretty sure people could mundanely walk across the boundary, otherwise the Hobgoblins would run out of food.

[nothingclever]

Why do you people try to make everything so complicated? You don't know anything "for certain." Maybe they have the food stored away somewhere in the city or maybe they went outside to get it. Either way you don't know, you can only guess. Plus what's the point of putting spoiler as if you've revealed something special when you just made an assumption with no definite proof?


it's certain that there's at least SOME way of getting out.

No it's not certain.


Cloister is not a SELF prison spell, the caster may leave when he feels like it, same goes for people he sees as allies and permits.
Neither is this.

You can still have a debate without stating your opinions as facts.

[Ruduen]

Why do you people try to make everything so complicated? You don't know anything "for certain." Maybe they have the food stored away somewhere in the city or maybe they went outside to get it. Either way you don't know, you can only guess. Plus what's the point of putting spoiler as if you've revealed something special when you just made an assumption with no definite proof?
it's certain that there's at least SOME way of getting out.No it's not certain.

If there was no way out, everybody would die of starvation except Xykon. Simply put, there are only so many supplies in AC. Without being able to import more, you'd run out. Organic matter can only go so long without spoiling. And, as far as we know, there aren't enough spellcasters to provide the army with rations every day. Plus, if there was no way for them to get in or out without breaching the spell, then they wouldn't have bothered filling up the hole in a wall or building a new fence. (See 510) Those are my facts.

I never said that the way was easy or accessible to the heroes. Only that it existed.

And, guess what? When you don't have facts, you have speculation. Some things can't be proven, but that doesn't mean they aren't true. Certainty is near impossible with human perception. My goal isn't to argue over linguistics, but present my viewpoint on what is possible or plausible.

[David Argall]

After seeing todays strip I doubt that cloister doesn't allow people to leave or enter city. Why? Because of the supplies carried by slaves. Plantations and farms take hundreds of acres. They aren't positioned inside of walls.
The city is about 9 square miles, or 5760 acres. Our pictures do show fairly substantial empty areas outside the city walls that can be farmed. The destruction and depopulation of the city also makes for major areas that can be devoted to farming.

There are also substantial stores within the city. Those fleeing of course took some, but the majority just could not have been moved. With luck, that could be enough food for 3 years, much less 3 months. Ancients depended on the annual crops, which were known to fail, so there had to be enough reserves to survive until the next crop, and to survive if that is a bad crop, and some more to avoid other problems.


So slaves need to leave city to get them.
Now we do not know the boundaries of the spell. That could mean slaves could easily leave the city, at least for a short distance.


Question may arise:If cloister allows to leave the city why :haley: hasn't escaped from AC yet? I think that maybe because she thought that leaving all those people to :redcloak: is bad.
This seems unlikely. Haley would presumably have stayed hidden for a day or two, waiting to be contacted. When it became clear there was a problem, leaving the city becomes the obvious response. This gives her very little time to contact any locals and form any loyalties that would keep her there. Much more likely she tries to leave the city and finds it can't be done.


if there was no way for them to get in or out without breaching the spell, then they wouldn't have bothered filling up the hole in a wall or building a new fence.
Perhaps you have never been introduced to the army idea that a busy soldier is a happy soldier, or at least is not getting into any mischief that will bother his betters. So an army would fill up the holes in the walls of the city and post guards atop them simply because that is what armies do, and it keeps the grunts busy. They are presumably working on the theory that the spell will be taken down some time soon, and are working on that basis.

[Revanmal]

The city is about 9 square miles, or 5760 acres.

Where exactly did you get this figure, David? I can't find anything saying the city is roughly 9 square miles. It seems a bit smaller than that to me, judging from pictures like #484. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html)


The destruction and depopulation of the city also makes for major areas that can be devoted to farming.

Well, I can see where any amount of destruction could make for farm land, as well as the plains outside, but depopulation still leaves buildings behind, and AC looks pretty crowded together, even after the devastation. I doubt the hobbos are going to be tearing down buildings for something like farm land when it's pretty clear they have a ready source of food at the moment, and there's been no mention of hunger or need of supplies.

[turkishproverb]

Where exactly did you get this figure, David? I can't find anything saying the city is roughly 9 square miles. It seems a bit smaller than that to me, judging from pictures like #484. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html)

Given David's usual debate method's I'm guessing that because no one in the comic said it wasn't 9 miles, it HAS TO BE, because he said so, therefore the comic said it between the frames. :smallamused:

Seriously though, if as some in this thread guess, Cloister is a hard shell or sealing things off, could that craick in the sky not be the rift, but instead be a crack in the cloister?

[Shades of Gray]

Sigh...

THIS (http://www.pokemondungeon.com/pkmnicons/cloyster.gif) is cloister

[Chronos]

I'm guessing that David's estimate of 9 square miles comes from 468 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), where Belkar says that the docks are three miles from where Roy died. If we assume that a line between the two goes through the heart of the city, and further assume that the city is roughly square, we get a total size of 9 square miles.

On the food supply question, remember that they have a great many clerics capable of casting Create Food and Water (and even more capable of Purify Food and Water, to deal with food going bad). There may or may not be enough to completely meet the army's food needs (probably not, judging from the fact that they do have food storehouses), but they could at least extend the food supply considerably. Redcloak by himself could feed several hundred soldiers, if he didn't have anything better to do with his spell slots.

[David Argall]

468 gives us one distance from wall to docks. [It could be a little less than 3 miles, but not significantly, and "a good three miles" can be up to 4 miles.] And the city is probably somewhat trapezoid. Each fisherman wants his own personal dock and the city thus spreads along the shore. so the other direction may well be much more than 3 miles. So an area of 9 square miles may well be on the low side.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Except that Roy fell outside the walls, with no clear indicator of distance from his body to the actual borders of the city.

[David Argall]

His death was easily visible from city walls, and we see his body in a battle scene or two. Probably only a couple hundred feet from the wall, which is not going to seriously change an answer based on 15,000 feet from the dock.

[Tyrmatt]

I'd love to know where people got the idea that Cloister actually seals the city off from people entering. If this was the case, there would be absolutely no need for guards on the walls. It's not more than an epic level scrying and divination blocker with a possible touch of Banality around it.

[Khanderas]

I'd love to know where people got the idea that Cloister actually seals the city off from people entering. If this was the case, there would be absolutely no need for guards on the walls. It's not more than an epic level scrying and divination blocker with a possible touch of Banality around it.
Exactly. Was gonna type something similar. Now I wont have to.

[Grey Watcher]

Plus what's the point of putting spoiler as if you've revealed something special when you just made an assumption with no definite proof?

Actually, speculation is supposed to be marked with spoiler tags, in order to warn off people who don't want to read something that might spoil the surprise or mystery for them.

[Gitman00]

This seems unlikely. Haley would presumably have stayed hidden for a day or two, waiting to be contacted. When it became clear there was a problem, leaving the city becomes the obvious response. This gives her very little time to contact any locals and form any loyalties that would keep her there. Much more likely she tries to leave the city and finds it can't be done.

I disagree. We have no evidence that she's tried to leave, and why would she? The city is big enough to have a standing army of 10,000. There would be plenty of places for her to hole up, and she's obviously found allies. If she's in no immediate danger and doesn't know about the Cloister spell, the most reasonable choice is to stay in the last place her allies knew she was, so they have an easier time finding her. Especially since she has no idea where to start looking for said allies.

[David Argall]

We have no evidence that she's tried to leave, and why would she? The city is big enough to have a standing army of 10,000. There would be plenty of places for her to hole up, and she's obviously found allies.
She has now found allies, months later. We are talking of the first couple of days of that period, during which she would be trying to hide and avoid everybody. Her ability or interest in finding these allies is low. She is expecting to be gone in the next day. She would start looking for these allies only after it became clear she was not going to be contacted.


If she's in no immediate danger and doesn't know about the Cloister spell,
She knows something is very wrong. The sky has turned purple, and there is this strange "sun" near the ruins of the castle. [These may well be 24 hour a day effects.] She can't know if this is related to the lack of communication, but it is obviously heavy mojo and she has good reason to think that getting away from it is a good idea.


the most reasonable choice is to stay in the last place her allies knew she was, so they have an easier time finding her. Especially since she has no idea where to start looking for said allies.
Her allies knowing she is in or near the city is effectively not knowing where she is. They are not going to be entering the city to find her. She will have to come to them.

Consider what the plan would have been if contact had been made. Would it have been to make a lightning sailing right into the heart of the city, requiring precise timing and co-ordination so the two parties find the right place at the right time? Easily ruined by random actions of almost any of those 20,000 hobgoblins in the area? That's great drama, but really suicidal.
Or would you just travel up or down the coast a few miles to any easily identifiable point?, Where either party could just arrive and kick back for hours, or even days? Because there are few if any enemy that far from the city. A tremendously greater chance of success.

But that means Haley should leave the city no matter if she is contacted or not. She will have to anyway to be picked up by a friendly ship. So she stays in the city a day or so while things settle down. Having no contact, she can then leave the city and head up or down the coast to find a good place to be picked up.
Having left the city, she gets the immediate benefit of Belkar becoming combat useful, and there is hope she might find the needed cleric. If she can go, it is the automatic decision.



I'd love to know where people got the idea that Cloister actually seals the city off from people entering. If this was the case, there would be absolutely no need for guards on the walls.
Two possible reasons.
1-Wall are supposed to have guards. The military commanders do not know when normal times will return, but assume it will be fairly soon and without warning. So keep the troops on their toes and have them pull guard duty.
2-The open areas outside the walls are also within the spell area, and are now being used for farming/whatever by the slaves. The guards on the wall are keeping an eye on the slaves, ready to pass on messages to the main force of goblins.


It's not more than an epic level scrying and divination blocker
As such, it seems to do too much and not enough, particularly after all this time. Anybody who is even an annoyance to the lich has now had time to teleport a party of adventurers to the area, walk into the city and discover whatever they wanted to find out. And Hinjo has spread the knowledge of the lich to much of the world. So it just fails as a way to block spying.
It is also a very visible effect. News of it is going to travel, and again defeat its basic purpose unless it can also block physical entry.

[FlyMolo]

Cloister could be a shell. There are things like Eternal wands of Create food and water. Although, I suspect the Giant hasn't even taken these things into consideration.

Also, a scrying blocker would be plenty good for cloister. Does anyone know if cloister is simply hiding in an obscure splatbook? Does it actually exist in any known text?

[The Wanderer]

Cloister could be a shell. There are things like Eternal wands of Create food and water. Although, I suspect the Giant hasn't even taken these things into consideration.

Also, a scrying blocker would be plenty good for cloister. Does anyone know if cloister is simply hiding in an obscure splatbook? Does it actually exist in any known text?

A lot of people looked for it right after it was first mentioned, and I think the consensus was that it was a homebrewed spell.

[Kreistor]

There is one thing that could keep Haley and belkar inside the city. Belkar's MoJ might have already activated. If it's the 50% chance not to act version, he'd be incapable of sneaking out of the city reliably.