Player help on character abilities and player knowledge

[Demonslayer666]

So I got chastised by my DM last night for reminding a player playing a tabaxi that they can double their move. He didn't like that I was helping her out tactically when moving further was rather important.

This seems like a no brainer to me. No tabaxi would ever forget that they can move like that.

I am very much against 'quizzing' player's knowledge. This is a game we play for fun, not school where we are tested on knowledge retained. I think playing a smart wizard when the player isn't, still results in the character being a smart wizard. Same with a fast-talking bard and a shy player.

I understand that there is a tactical element to playing D&D, and that the player should be free to fail on their own and face the consequences. But pointing out something obvious and very beneficial seems almost expected. It's not like I was trying to tell her how to play her character or change her tactics - she was moving as far as she could. As a DM I would have reminded the player myself, and I would not have been upset had another player pointed it out.


So I put it to the playground, what do you think about helping other players like I did, and testing player knowledge (vs. character knowledge)?

[Unoriginal]

So I got chastised by my DM last night for reminding a player playing a tabaxi that they can double their move. He didn't like that I was helping her out tactically when moving further was rather important.

This seems like a no brainer to me. No tabaxi would ever forget that they can move like that.

I am very much against 'quizzing' player's knowledge. This is a game we play for fun, not school where we are tested on knowledge retained. I think playing a smart wizard when the player isn't, still results in the character being a smart wizard. Same with a fast-talking bard and a shy player.

I understand that there is a tactical element to playing D&D, and that the player should be free to fail on their own and face the consequences. But pointing out something obvious and very beneficial seems almost expected. It's not like I was trying to tell her how to play her character or change her tactics - she was moving as far as she could. As a DM I would have reminded the player myself, and I would not have been upset had another player pointed it out.


So I put it to the playground, what do you think about helping other players like I did, and testing player knowledge (vs. character knowledge)?

Suggestions to other players are good, unless the concerned player asked you not to do it. Insisting beyond that is poor behavior, but that isn't what happened here from what you say.

What did your DM object to, specifically?

[Psyren]

From the brief context I see in the OP, you did nothing wrong unless the player in question asked you not to help them. I suggest sitting down with your DM and having an open conversation about why they disliked what you did and defending your approach.

D&D, even 5e, is a pretty complex game with a lot of moving parts, so reminding other players of their abilities (especially when they would make a tactical difference) is fairly common and benign. And to your point, the character in question would undoubtedly have this knowledge in-universe too.

[KorvinStarmast]

Suggestions to other players are good, unless the concerned player asked you not to do it. Insisting beyond that is poor behavior, but that isn't what happened here from what you say. This is good advice, and as a DM I am glad when other players make points like that so that I don't have to. But it also reminds me to discuss with the player, after the session, if they are often unable to recall their class features to make sure that they Know Their Character. That's on the player to do. With experienced players there is really no excuse. With new players, there will be some coaching involved in many cases.

D&D, even 5e, is a pretty complex game with a lot of moving parts, so reminding other players of their abilities (especially when they would make a tactical difference) is fairly common and benign. And to your point, the character in question would undoubtedly have this knowledge in-universe too. Worth bringing up to the DM. +1

[Chronos]

Agree with the others: The other player might have a legitimate complaint, because they feel like they're being talked down to (this is a personal interaction issue, not a game issue). But the DM's complaint is not legitimate, because, as you say, the character wouldn't actually have forgotten that.

Once, in a game I was DMing, an outdoorsy character was in an outdoorsy situation that he didn't recognize, because the player wasn't very outdoorsy (why is a racoon attacking me, and why is its mouth foamy?). I actually asked a different player who would have recognized what was going on to explain it to him.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'd need more context, probably too much context lol.

Some players want to make sure every thing they do is maximally efficient, others don't.

Some players feel like they're being prescribed what to do when someone is describing that they can do, others don't.

Some players don't pay attention and require constant reminders, and some DMs don't like that.

Etc etc.

We have a player in our current game that doesn't pay attention. At all. And uses Colossus Slayer. So every time his turn comes up he's like "Did this monster take damage? Does this monster look like he took damage? What is this yellow square on the battlemap? Wait, who is this guy, when did he get here? Oh this other guy died already? I was going to attack him. Hmm... now what should I do?"

Of all the players, I'm probably the one most obsessed with remembering everything that's transpiring, and the rules, and playing tactically. But do I like seeing Mr. Nonattentive fail sometimes because of his lack of attention? Am I, Dr. Samurai, the type of person that would cut off his nose to spite his face? Would I fail to remind him of something just to see him suffer the consequences?

Yes. The answer is yes, lol.

[da newt]

"So I got chastised by my DM last night for reminding a player playing a tabaxi that they can double their move. He didn't like that I was helping her out tactically"

Based on this alone I'd assume your DM is competitive and wants 'his' guys to win. This is an undesirable attitude in a DM and may lead to further issues over time.



The Party is a team, they should be helping each other out and so should the Players. Suggestions should be welcomed, but the Player should make all the decisions for their PC - other Players shouldn't dictate. Be kind and helpful.

[Pex]

If a player honestly forgot I'm fine with a reminder, but at some point the player needs to know it himself. I'm also ok with players discussing strategy during combat, but up to a point. Players needs to communicate with each other. All NPC bad guys and monsters work together in perfect silent harmony at the speed of DM thought. To deny player communication is not being a fair DM. However, the communication cannot take too long because it will slow the game down and no player should be telling another player what to do on their turn*. The player can freely take the idea if they want, but he decides what to do and the other player should keep quiet and not be doing this every turn every combat.



*The one exception is when the player is purposely wanting to be disruptive in ruining whatever plan the PCs have to do his own thing for selfish and/or game chaos reasons so other players are nearly or are literally yelling at him to do what he's supposed to be doing and not make things worse.

[Unoriginal]

All NPC bad guys and monsters work together in perfect silent harmony at the speed of DM thought.

Personally, I think averting this is part of the DM's job, and an important part at that.

Some bad guys are perfectly and silently in harmony, but most would be much messier than that as a consequence of just being themselves. And even those who have perfect harmony can see it broken (ex: if they're all linked by a telepath and the telepath gets killed).

It also makes fight much more interesting and entertaining, IMO.

[Kenny_Snoggins]

This is good advice, and as a DM I am glad when other players make points like that so that I don't have to. But it also reminds me to discuss with the player, after the session, if they are often unable to recall their class features to make sure that they Know Their Character. That's on the player to do. with experienced players there is really no excuse. With hew players, there will be some coaching involved in many cases.
Worth bringing up to the DM. +1

Well stated. In my last campaign there were 2 veterans and 5 brand new players and it was a very unforgiving, old school DM vs Players type campaign.
I was playing a high charisma sword bard noble background who was a former cavalry commander so the way we threaded the needle in-game was to give reminders or suggestions etc my PC had to be able to see and communicate with the player being advised like he was calling orders on a battlefield.

This had a lot of interesting tactical implications that made it more interesting than just saying ot across the table player to player. If the party was split outside of telepathy range (kalashtar) he couldn't help. It made scouting more important so he could give a overall battle plan before rolling initiative. If he was concentrating on a spell or surrounded there was a perception check to see if he was too distracted to notice. It made him a higher priority target than bards usually are in combat as intelligent monsters tried to shut down orders. And there was a lot of roleplay in it too, when a combat went badly PCs might resent or even challenge him in the aftermath.
It added a slight bit of complexity but I thought it was a pretty elegant solution as it allowed what had been a problem to become an interesting tactical nuance in the game.

[Unoriginal]

Well stated. In my last campaign there were 2 veterans and 5 brand new players and it was a very unforgiving, old school DM vs Players type campaign.
I was playing a high charisma sword bard noble background who was a former cavalry commander so the way we threaded the needle in-game was to give reminders or suggestions etc my PC had to be able to see and communicate with the player being advised like he was calling orders on a battlefield.

This had a lot of interesting tactical implications that made it more interesting than just saying ot across the table player to player. If the party was split outside of telepathy range (kalashtar) he couldn't help. It made scouting more important so he could give a overall battle plan before rolling initiative. If he was concentrating on a spell or surrounded there was a perception check to see if he was too distracted to notice. It made him a higher priority target than bards usually are in combat as intelligent monsters tried to shut down orders. And there was a lot of roleplay in it too, when a combat went badly PCs might resent or even challenge him in the aftermath.
It added a slight bit of complexity but I thought it was a pretty elegant solution as it allowed what had been a problem to become an interesting tactical nuance in the game.

I apologize, but I'm confused.

What had been a problem?

[Kenny_Snoggins]

2 problems, one the new players were getting slaughtered every session because they were struggling to take effective action in combat (this also slowed the game to a crawl as they deliberated) and the second problem was the DM didn't like cross table out of character suggestions to other PCs in combat, similar to what the OPs situation was.

[Tanarii]

My general rule for combat is if you say it, your character has to say something substantially similar (keeping in mind game terms aren't in-universe) to communicate the idea. No mind-to-mind tactical strategizing during battle. Make plans before hand, assuming your characters have the time. Enemies may react to hasty in-universe shouted comments / battle plans, if they can understand the language.

But IMO one player completely forgetting about core features / bonuses and being reminded is a different matter and I'm not going to have enemies react as if the character is yelling "don't forget you can sprint further as a Tabaxi" or "Don't forget your bardic inspiration" to the other. :smallyuk:

A bigger concern would be if one player was doing it so much they're effectively trying to play another's character, especially for new players. I've played enough D&D (and coop board games) to know this is a real issue with experienced players.

It doesn't sound like that's what you were trying to do. But as an experienced player and DM, and one with natural instincts to be a rules lawyer to boot, I try not to interject about other players actions. Or DM rulings. At most I have a convo after the game, but even then I'm cautious about it, because some folks don't react well even when it is (or is disguised as) a suggestion or helpful advice.

[Demonslayer666]

...
What did your DM object to, specifically?
I said "you're a tabaxi!" Basically me helping her get to safety, rather than get attacked again.



I'd need more context, probably too much context lol.

...
So the tabaxi dashed and could not get far enough across the bridge. Getting past a certain point had the flying enemies stop attacking you. She was badly hurt and trying to get to safety. Even after dashing she came up 10' short. She was notably disappointed she didn't make it, that's when I remembered that tabaxi get extra movement. So I told her, "you're a tabaxi". The DM complained loudly, something to the effect of 'don't help her'. I can't recall what he said exactly.

[Unoriginal]

I said "you're a tabaxi!" Basically me helping her get to safety, rather than get attacked again.



So the tabaxi dashed and could not get far enough across the bridge. Getting past a certain point had the flying enemies stop attacking you. She was badly hurt and trying to get to safety. Even after dashing she came up 10' short. She was notably disappointed she didn't make it, that's when I remembered that tabaxi get extra movement. So I told her, "you're a tabaxi". The DM complained loudly, something to the effect of 'don't help her'. I can't recall what he said exactly.

Yeah, to me that indicates your DM was being unkind.

I can't see any legit argument to *not* help someone in a team game, provided said someone is ok with it.

Reminding people of that kind of rules is just the verbal equivalent of helping them pick their die from the floor if it falls of the table.

[JNAProductions]

I'll echo the general thrust of the others' answers. Assuming you helped the player in a positive way (so not condescending or belittling or anything) and barring the player having asked you to let them do it on their own... You did fine.