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View Full Version : Is this as powerful as I think it is?



SangoProduction
2023-09-23, 02:55 AM
I could be going insane, but I've been having a bit of fun with the Shadow Lurk talent. As a standard action, it creates a copy of a creature, that is loyal to you for 10 min / CL. Only 3 strength and CL HP, at first, and no magical equipment (nor non-extraordinary abilities like spells), and are not (without additional effort) convincing emulations of the target. But otherwise identical copies of the target.

I have to say, having a disposable, intelligent, and (importantly) loyal minion is really handy for trap checking. As much fun as we may have sending monkeys to die for our sins, that's not 100% reliable. Of course, ethereal beings are kinda similar, for different reasons.
Also, as long as the owner of the shadow doesn't desperately need their move action, they can, for no save, counter your use of the shadow as a move action - assuming you don't immediately snipe it to inflict a no-save stun, and then have someone coup-de-grace with a scythe. (You can also delay your action until after your target goes, and then you get an entire round to take care of the shadow, with its literal 1 HP per level - whom you can choose to have not defend itself.

You can purchase the talent a second time to upgrade it to be more material, having actual (non-magical) equipment, strength score... and 2 * CL HP. And they can flank and attack (once per round), for half damage. So basically enables ally-copying in combat. Which is cool. Even though the rogue might appreciate getting to flank with himself, I don't think he'll like it when he gets stunned for the privilege. But it can be seen as effective healing, due to the fact that, no matter how much damage the attack that kills the shadow did... none of it gets transferred to the rogue. Barring cleave.

Shadow Lurk (shadow)
As a standard action you may spend a spell point to have a target’s shadow split off from them and form a shadow lurk that acts as an independent creature unwaveringly loyal to you for 10 minutes per caster level. A shadow lurk appears as a shaded, obviously spurious version of the target. It is weightless and its equipment is entirely illusionary. It has the same skills, feats, and attributes as the target, except that its Strength score is 3, and only has a number of hit points equal to your caster level.

The shadow lurk cannot attack, use extraordinary or supernatural abilities, cast spells or use spell-like abilities, or employ its target’s class features, though it can manipulate objects and use skills. A shadow lurk must remain within long range of its original source or it ceases to exist. The target lacks a shadow while this effect is active.

Retracting a shadow lurk is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Either the target or the shadow lurk may spend this action. If a shadow lurk is killed or exceeds its range, it winks out of existence and the target’s shadow returns to them with a surge of energy that causes them to be stunned for 1 round. In either case, the target immediately gains the knowledge of everything their shadow lurk observed and did while it was detached.

You may gain this talent a total of twice. If gained a second time, you may weave shadowstuff into your shadow lurks, giving them and their equipment increased substance. Your shadow lurks use the full Strength score of their source, have 2 hit points per caster level, and possess non-magical versions of their sources’ equipment. It may flank, threaten, and make a single attack per turn using non-magical versions of whatever weapons or natural attacks its source possesses. It attacks using its source’s full base attack bonus, Strength score, feats, and proficiencies, but deals only half damage. A shadowstuff-imbued shadow lurk may not attempt non-attack combat maneuvers, cast spells, or use its source’s class features. Alchemical items created as part of your shadow lurks do not function.


Then again, it might just be something like an inherent part of minionmancy peeking through the much less intrusive "Hey buddy, just take another partial turn" spell.

Zanos
2023-09-23, 04:40 AM
I don't see a limitation that prevents this from being used on an enemy. You could activate this talent, have the shadow lurk tell you the bad guys spells list, where the treasure is at, which castle the princess is in, etc. and then have someone destroy it in likely a single attack for a no-save stun. Other than that, this talent seems incredibly underwhelming compared to how easily accessible and potent minionmancy generally is in 3.5. Maybe if the target has weird feats that you can abuse that aren't (Ex) or (Su). Crafting maybe? If you have a targeted loaded with combat feats that aren't related to damage it might be interesting, but I don't think I would ever want to use this on an ally in combat without having it immediately dismiss itself due to how vulnerable it is and that you lose a turn when the thing gets destroyed.

Nizaris
2023-09-23, 11:31 PM
I don't see a limitation that prevents this from being used on an enemy. You could activate this talent, have the shadow lurk tell you the bad guys spells list, where the treasure is at, which castle the princess is in, etc. and then have someone destroy it in likely a single attack for a no-save stun. Other than that, this talent seems incredibly underwhelming compared to how easily accessible and potent minionmancy generally is in 3.5. Maybe if the target has weird feats that you can abuse that aren't (Ex) or (Su). Crafting maybe? If you have a targeted loaded with combat feats that aren't related to damage it might be interesting, but I don't think I would ever want to use this on an ally in combat without having it immediately dismiss itself due to how vulnerable it is and that you lose a turn when the thing gets destroyed.

All [Shadow] tag effects give a Will save to negate if used on unwilling targets, it's in the top section under "Shadow Talents". I'm not seeing anything that implies it knows the target's memories either so pulling info out of it might not be possible.

Taking it twice does force an enemy that fails the save to either become effectively staggered for a round recalling it with a Move action or get attacked by it. Or a waiting ally can take it out, stunning the target for no additional save and get coup-de-graced. It can be used with Shadow Coterie so you can proc it multiple times on the same target if you want to force them to make multiple copies of someone at a time.

KillianHawkeye
2023-09-24, 11:26 AM
You can't coup-de-grace a stunned target. That's not helpless enough.

SangoProduction
2023-09-24, 02:05 PM
You can't coup-de-grace a stunned target. That's not helpless enough.

You are right. I was thinking paralyzed.

Logalmier
2023-09-24, 02:28 PM
I would consider Shadow Lurk x2 to be similar to the Summon Elemental feat, with a few differences:

Shadow Lurk has much more utility than an elemental

Shadow Lurk lasts meaningfully longer

Shadow Lurk costs a spell point, so no unlimited spamming (this hurts)

Shadow Lurk is worse for action economy. You're likely looking at trading your standard action for a flanking partner/extra damage, or the enemy's standard action for TWO of your standard actions. 1:1 trades are bad action economy. 1:2 trades in the enemy's favor are actively atrocious. I would basically never use this spell in combat - if you're looking to buff/do damage, there are spells that do that without risking a 1:2 action trade.

Ignoring for a second that Spheres is designed for Pathfinder and not 3.5, I would say that as a utility option, Shadow Lurk competes with Summon Elemental, and is much worse as a combat option if you're just doing straight minionmancy. That being said, while I think Summon Elemental is a very good feat, I wouldn't say that it's earth shattering or anything, and my view of Shadow Lurk is similar.

EDIT:


Other than that, this talent seems incredibly underwhelming compared to how easily accessible and potent minionmancy generally is in 3.5.

I think in general this shouldn't be the standard to which we hold Spheres stuff. 3.5 stuff is borked, and Spheres makes an active effort to not be borked. It makes more sense to judge Spheres stuff against the standard that Spheres sets, rather than the standard that 3.5 or even Pathfinder sets. Planar binding is a baseline assumption in these systems. In Spheres, it is an advanced talent, only available through GM permission.