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Voyager_I
2007-12-09, 06:29 AM
I'm currently kicking around the idea of running an E6 (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=352719) game set in a D&D approximation of the Thirty Years War. This will result in a somewhat different spread of available equipment to reflect the changes in technology from a traditional D&D setting. Fortunately, gunpowder was not yet sufficiently advanced enough to render hand-to-hand combat entirely obsolete, so the game won't be reduced to characters trading shots with their musket and hoping they roll the first twenty.

Below are prospective tables for weapons and armor in the game.


Armor

{table=head]
|
Bonus |
Max Dex |
Penalty |
Failure|
30 ft |
20 ft |
Weight

Light Armor
Padded|
1|
8 |
0 |
5% |
30 |
20 |
10

Leather |
2 |
6 |
0 |
10% |
30 |
20 |
15

Studded Leather|
3 |
5 |
-1 |
15% |
30 |
20 |
20

Brigantine|
4 |
4 |
-2 |
20% |
30 |
20 |
25


Medium Armor
Hide |
3 |
4 |
-3 |
20%|
20 |
15 |
25|

Breastplate |
5 |
3 |
-4|
25% |
20 |
15 |
30


Heavy Armor
Half-Plate* |
6 |
2 |
-5 |
30% |
20 |
15 |
40

3/4 Plate* |
7 |
1 |
-7 |
35% |
20 |
15 |
50

Full Plate|
8 |
1 |
-7 |
35% |
20 |
15 |
50
[/table]
*Bullet-proofed

Half-Plate and 3/4 Plate
These were developed to counteract the increasing lethality of firearms. Older full-plate could not reliably stop a musket ball, especially at the close ranges that cavalry inevitably engaged at. Protecting the entire body by thickening the armor would have produced and impractically heavy suit, so pieces the cavalier deemed less essential were discarded keep the overall weight down to a manageable level. Although nothing was entirely effective against close-range musket fire, partial plate became the defense of the elite in a battlefield dominated by blackpowder.



Weapons

{table=head]
|
Dmg (s) |
Dmg (M) |
Penetration |
Critical |
Rage Increment |
Weight |
Type


Simple Weapons
Musket|
2d6 |
2d8|
4 |
x3 |
50 ft |
20 lbs |
Piercing

Arquebus |
1d10 |
2d6 |
3 |
x3 |
40 ft |
12 lbs |
Piercing

Carbine |
1d8|
1d10 |
3 |
x3 |
40 ft |
8 lbs |
Piercing

Pistol |
1d8 |
1d10 |
3 |
x3 |
20 ft|
4 lbs |
Piercing[/table]


Muskets
Muskets are the primary ranged weapons of the time, firing a powerful shot capable of penetrating even the heaviest armor at close range. However, they are inaccurate, heavy, slow to reload, and require the assistance of a stand to fire. They come mainly in basic matchlock and more reliable flintlock varieties.

Due to their tremendous weight, size, and recoil, a Musket cannot be casually fired from the shoulder. The barrel must be rested on a forked stand to be used properly. Because of this, Muskets cannot be used while moving or mounted. Bracing the stand is a move action (meaning that firing a Musket from an un-readied position equates to a full-round-action) and picking it up is a free action. No movement is possible while the stand is deployed, including five-foot steps.

Reloading a musket takes three full-round actions. Because of their unwieldiness, they cannot be reloaded while mounted.


Arquebus/Calivers
These are a combined category of older-model, lighter firearms. They lack the power of the newer muskets, but can be fired effectively from the shoulder. Despite having been replaced by muskets in proper military forces, they continue to see considerable use among militias and irregulars

If a character may fire an Arquebus while mounted, but they take a -4 penalty to hit, in addition to the normal penalties.

Reloading an Arquebus takes three full-round actions.


Carbines
Similar to the Calivers, Carbines are smaller caliber weapons. However, rather than being obsolete, they are a designed for use in close-quarters or by mounted units. They are not yet used in formalized units of Carbineers, but individual soldiers can still make effective use of them.

Reloading a Carbine takes three standard actions.


Pistols
Pistols are small, one handed weapons designed to be used in the opening of hand-to-hand combat, supplanting the use of the lance among the cavalry. Cavalrymen who can afford them generally carry two and fire them during the charge. Their short barrels mean that their effectiveness rapidly diminishes at range. Pistols are frequently wheellock.

Pistols are fired (but not loaded) with one hand, and count as light weapons when firing two at once.

A loaded pistol may be fired in a grapple.

Because of their small size, reloading a pistol takes only two standard actions.



Gunpowder Special Rules

Penetration
Even the smallest firearms are reasonably effective at piercing armor, and so can ignore a significant portion of an armor bonus. However, this penetrative ability diminishes with range. It decreases by 1 for every four range increments, to a minimum of zero.

Bullet-proofed armors ignore the first four points of this reduction.

Reloading
Reloading a firearm takes several actions and always provokes attacks of opportunity. These actions do not need to be taken consecutively, and any progress made towards reloading will be preserved until the weapon is fired again (or passively disarmed). Generally, firearms are assumed to be loaded at the start of a battle.

*Because of the time needed to reload, it is entirely appropriate to take loaded weapons from the dead.


Recoil
A controlled explosion propelling a heavy ball at the enemy causes a significant effect at the other end as well. Indeed, a careless Musketeer could find his arm dislocated by the powerful kick of his weapon.

Because of the difficulty in keeping a gun on target while firing, characters apply their strength penalty (but not bonus) to their attack rolls rather than their damage rolls.


Rapid Reload
A character may apply the Rapid Reload feat to a specific type of firearm. Doing so reduces the number of actions needed to reload the weapon by one.


Wet Weather
Gunpowder does not work unless it is dry, meaning that mot firearms will not work in the rain or other wet conditions. Flintlocks and wheellocks are designed specially to protect their powder, and may be used normally in most conditions.


Smoke
Blackpowder weapons belch forth large puffs of smoke when fired, automatically revealing they square from which they were used.



Updated! Once again, criticism is more than welcome. Rules for using guns as improvise clubs are coming...

Lady Tialait
2007-12-09, 06:54 AM
on your guns..i see fluff no crunch....as for the rest very intresting very realistic. I'm thinking about swagging for my Newr campagin setting...still working on the gun-mage for it tho...

anywho...I like it so far...i wanna see more...gimme gimme!

Lord Zentei
2007-12-09, 06:56 AM
Penetration Rules
Even the smallest firearms are reasonably effective at piercing armor, and so can ignore a significant portion of an armor bonus. However, this penetrative ability diminishes with range.

This bonus is tentatively set at +6 for Muskets, and +4 for other firearms. It decreases by 1 for every two range increments, to a minimum of zero.

Bullet-proofed armors ignore the first four points of this reduction.

It's a bit late, or this would be a bit more fleshed out. G'night, and I look forwards to any help you can give me.

I especially like this mechanic, it's similar to what I devised at one point for a "steampunk vs arcana" theme. There, there was an AP rating that reduced armor, natural armor and shield bonuses (not bonuses for dodge, size, insight, luck, etc).

The general rule I used was "-1 to armor bonus per 5 points of maximum damage by firearms" to cover most types. In addition to this, there were modifiers for armor piercing bullets and penalties for dumdums. Finally, more advanced tech levels added +1 to armour penetration per level of development.

This allowed a quick, easy and consistent way of covering the weapon list (the AP I assigned to a musket is slightly less effective than yours, with the 2d10 musket having AP:4, though that was partially because the arcana guys were the "good guys" and also because I didn't include rules for bullet proofed armors).

Satyr
2007-12-09, 06:59 AM
I think you underestimate the bullet resistance of early modern plate armor; as far as I know, those were nearly impenetrablle by every handheld firearm of its time. Armorers had to proof that their armors could resist a musket bullet, or their armor were unsellable.

(There was this Australian bandit who created a bulletproof metal armor in the mid 19th century. It's really not that hard to do this.)

The great problem of blackpowder weapons was the looooong loading time and the inaccuracy (those were smoothboared weapons, not rifles; there were rifles around that time, but they were extremely expensive and needed even longer to reload than regular muskets). And they were Matchlocks, meaning they didn't work without a burning lunt.
The maxime "bajonetts over bullets" was still true during the Napoleonic Wars and was - probably wrongly - considered to be true up until the 1st World War.

Lord Zentei
2007-12-09, 07:12 AM
I think you underestimate the bullet resistance of early modern plate armor; as far as I know, those were nearly impenetrablle by every handheld firearm of its time. Armorers had to proof that their armors could resist a musket bullet, or their armor were unsellable.

(There was this Australian bandit who created a bulletproof metal armor in the mid 19th century. It's really not that hard to do this.)

Early musket bullets had limited armor penetration compared with what followed, certainly; however surely some reduction in AC is plausible? Note that Voyager_I has AP:-6 for muskets, meaning that plate armor still gives +2 to AC. In the case of bullet proofed armor, his plate gives a very respectable +6 to AC versus muskets instead of +8 against other weapons. I used -1 per 5 damage, which means that plate still gives +4 to AC against muskets. Neither of these trivializes armor.



The great problem of blackpowder weapons was the looooong loading time and the inaccuracy (those were smoothboared weapons, not rifles; there were rifles around that time, but they were extremely expensive and needed even longer to reload than regular muskets). And they were Matchlocks, meaning they didn't work without a burning lunt.
The maxime "bajonetts over bullets" was still true during the Napoleonic Wars and was - probably wrongly - considered to be true up until the 1st World War.

Very definitely wrongly, I'd say, considering what the death tolls there were like. :smalleek:

Anyway, if we have long loading time and inaccuracy, a large part of the reason for "bayonets over bullets" may be provided without having to do away with armor penetration (especially seeing as how armor remains useful even with Voyager_I's AP rules).

Satyr
2007-12-09, 07:46 AM
Early musket bullets had limited armor penetration compared with what followed, certainly; however surely some reduction in AC is plausible? Note that Voyager_I has AP:-6 for muskets, meaning that plate armor still gives +2 to AC. In the case of bullet proofed armor, his plate gives a very respectable +6 to AC versus muskets instead of +8 against other weapons. I used -1 per 5 damage, which means that plate still gives +4 to AC against muskets. Neither of these trivializes armor.

I wouldn't. I would give them realy mean high damage - around 3D6 or so. If the bullet his your armor, you have a bruise at worst. If it his an armored part of you, it tears a whole as big as a tennis ball... these are no nice self rotating bullets which pierces a whole in you (or your victim). These bullets waver and tear through flesh, shattering bones etc.


Anyway, if we have long loading time and inaccuracy, a large part of the reason for "bayonets over bullets" may be provided without having to do away with armor penetration (especially seeing as how armor remains useful even with Voyager_I's AP rules).

Compared to any other ranged weapons, firearms are very easy to use, meaning that you don't need that much training to recruuit soldiers. And the ammonition is extremely easy produce as well. To build an arrow needs time and manual dexterity; casting lead bulets was so easy, that every soldier could do it on his own; you only need a form (that you can use over and over again), lead and a fire. Similar is true for blackpowder. It's just not very expensive. The price-performance ratio of firearms is much better than by almost any other weapon.

Lord Zentei
2007-12-09, 08:46 AM
I wouldn't. I would give them realy mean high damage - around 3D6 or so. If the bullet his your armor, you have a bruise at worst. If it his an armored part of you, it tears a whole as big as a tennis ball... these are no nice self rotating bullets which pierces a whole in you (or your victim). These bullets waver and tear through flesh, shattering bones etc.

The bolded bit seems to contradict your position. :smallconfused:

In any case:
there are sections on your armor that are going to be less resilient than the breastplate, meaning that incremental reduction in protection makes sense.
A modest AP is consistent with light armor such as chain shirts and leather being made useless.
Also, the 3d6 is similar in scale to the 2d10 I assigned.



Compared to any other ranged weapons, firearms are very easy to use, meaning that you don't need that much training to recruuit soldiers. And the ammonition is extremely easy produce as well. To build an arrow needs time and manual dexterity; casting lead bulets was so easy, that every soldier could do it on his own; you only need a form (that you can use over and over again), lead and a fire. Similar is true for blackpowder. It's just not very expensive. The price-performance ratio of firearms is much better than by almost any other weapon.

Yes... that doesn't answer the point though.

Satyr
2007-12-09, 09:45 AM
The bolded bit seems to contradict your position.

Yes, stupid Satyr. It should say : "If it his an UNarmored part of you, it tears a whole as big as a tennis ball..."

And suddenly it makes sense again.


there are sections on your armor that are going to be less resilient than the breastplate, meaning that incremental reduction in protection makes sense.

This is true for every attack against armor and it is nowhere included in the D&D rules. It is even easier in melee to bypass the armor and hit on the weak points, I think.


A modest AP is consistent with light armor such as chain shirts and leather being made useless.

I'm actually not sure if they were completely useless - they stilll spread the kinetic energy over a larger area and makes it harder fort the bullet to penetrate. But I agree, they do not offer that much damage against bullets.


Also, the 3d6 is similar in scale to the 2d10 I assigned.

Yeah, and both means that an unarmored lvl 1 soldier or PC is likely killed by one shot that hits. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but I know a lot of people who utterly curse anything that gives NPC the chance to kill them that easily.

I think I would recommend some kind of Armor gives Damage Reduction rule. It makes more sense that way.

Lord Zentei
2007-12-09, 10:47 AM
Yes, stupid Satyr. It should say : "If it his an UNarmored part of you, it tears a whole as big as a tennis ball..."

And suddenly it makes sense again.

Yes, I rather suspected that this is what you meant. :smallwink:



This is true for every attack against armor and it is nowhere included in the D&D rules. It is even easier in melee to bypass the armor and hit on the weak points, I think.

D&D does in fact have precisely that mechanic: Strength Bonus to Hit. Strong characters add +1 to their attack rolls as well as to damage per two points of Strength -- but firearms cannot, since they don't have a Strength rating. This becomes particularly silly when you introduce such things as gatling rams and cannons.

Of course, ranged weapons use the Dex bonus instead, but that's hardly adequate for modeling the armor penetration of powerful hits.



Yeah, and both means that an unarmored lvl 1 soldier or PC is likely killed by one shot that hits. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but I know a lot of people who utterly curse anything that gives NPC the chance to kill them that easily.

Then they should stay out of campaigns with firearms. :smallamused:



I think I would recommend some kind of Armor gives Damage Reduction rule. It makes more sense that way.

Naturally armor as DR makes much more sense than as a penalty to hit. However, going by the standard rules, some kind of AP becomes necessary.

Voyager_I
2007-12-09, 06:47 PM
The comments are appreciated, and the proper statistics for guns are now up.

Generally, I'm trying to lean a bit away from a massively inaccurate/massively powerful mechanic. I don't know how much fun the players would have with a system that approximated to "Don't worry, they'll never actually hit you...you know, unless they roll a twenty. Then you die." As is, I've tried to put the average damage for a Musket, the most powerful firearm, somewhere between a Greatsword wielded by Jim the Unremarkable and one wielded by Trogdok the Crushinator. That x3 Crit might be a dangerous idea though. I don't think many E6 PC's would be especially happy about 6d8 damage (although that's still less than Trogdok Power Attacking with a Greataxe)...

The only thing I don't like about the AP system is that a Breastplate currently provides no protection from a musket being fired from within 200 feet. I'm not quite sure how to correct that without making too many rules or compromising the system entirely...(I wouldn't mind full plate being a hair more protective at close range, either). Let's just say it's open to heavy revision. I still want to keep light armors more or less out of the loop, though.


As for the eventual campaign, the idea is to have the characters start out as Wallenstein's attendants (bodyguard, adviser, troubadour, court mage, etc), probably starting at third level, present at his house on the eve of his assassination. They would then have to escape, dodging enemies and/or fighting their way out of the city, where they are then faced with the immediate goal of survival in a very bad situation. The Catholics (or campaign equivalent) think of them as dangerous members of Wallenstein's retinue, whereas the Protestants (eqiv) still view them as loyal Catholics.

Most likely, they'll end up convincing one side that they're worth more to them alive than dead (ie "Those crazy dudes tried to kill us! We want to hang out with you guy now." or "We had, like, no idea that the old guy had gone totally bonkers. We're still cool, right?"), and carry on with the war from there. Their most likely long-term goal would be the resurrection of the dead champion of their cause, which will naturally require some long, convoluted adventure into the realm of spirits (since there is no resurrection magic) to manually retrieve the soul of Gustavus/Tilly and tip the war in their favor.

Also, I'll be using the rules for death from the Alexandrian (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/advanced-rules/optional-death.html), so occasionally getting shot for a lot won't be quite as bad as it usually is.

Hawriel
2007-12-09, 09:27 PM
THis is a very well thought out post I like it. I do have some suggestion/coments though. The weather resistance of the wheal and flint locks is really a non issue, there shouldnt be a benefit here. It was not untill the fulminated mercury cap was addopted that fire arms truely became an all weather weapon. high winds would also be a problem. I didnt see a miss fire chance for the weapons eather. Both fire mechanisms should have a failur chance, and rules for catastrophic failur. Again it wasnt until the mercury cap where fire arms had a neer 100% reliability.

I know for game play you have the base reload time set at 4 but maybe raise it by one or two rounds. My reasoning is to fill out a feat chain for fire arms. Instead of rapid reload use Drill, and add Impruved Drill. Drill would work the same way as RR but it would be for firearms isntead of crossbows. They have two very different action sets. Imp drill would lower the relaod time by another round. I would also agree with other posters that you should raise the damage. Maybe even lower it at greater ranges do to loss of velosity. But that might be to much work.

Triangular bayonets.
They are freakin nasty. They do not heal. for the game maybe on a crit or a persentage chance on a hit they would cause a bleeding wound. Also for playability a heal check at a +5 difficulty or if you have healing magic it should recier a CMW or CSW or equivelent to repaire.

Somthing I wanted to make for my campain is a Dragoon PRC. Or a sharpshooter who specialises with a rifle.

well any way just some thoughts

edit PS
on second thought after reading my post. Ignore the suggestion for a missfire chance the to hit penalties would be inhindering enough. Catastrophic missfire chance well thats what the rolled a 1 is for. Aslo the musket ball would do bludgeoning damage. Bullets do not peirce they smash through flash.

Voyager_I
2007-12-09, 10:54 PM
Misfires are an intentional omission. They would require adding even more new rules to an already complicated mechanic, extra paperwork, and wouldn't really add anything valuable to game play. I can't picture the PC's getting excited about their weapons misfiring occasionally, and a natural 1 rule would make the weapons only marginally less dangerous to their firers as to their targets at long range.

Nice idea with the bayonets, but they aren't in use yet. Musketeers still rely in pike formations to protect them against enemy cavalry. Ditto with rifling.

The most likely martial character archetypes will be the following;

Cuirassiers
Elite heavy cavalry wearing half or 3/4 plate. They carry pistols in lieu of lances for use on the charge and have a healthy respect for enemy firepower, but still fulfill their traditional role on offense. Swords are also carried for protracted melees. Although they no longer enjoy unequivocal dominance of the battlefield, they are still a proud and dangerous force.

Dragoons
Mounted infantry and something of an intermediary between the poorer infantry and wealthy cavalry. Although they can serve as light cavalry when necessary, they are not intended to fight from horseback. Instead, they use their mobility to gain a strategic advantage before dismounting and engaging with their muskets. Wealthy dragoons equip themselves with pistols, swords, and armor (typically breastplates).

Carbineers
Although they were not yet used as formalized units, individuals could make effective use of Carbines while firing primarily from horseback.

Musketeers
Common infantry fighting primarily with muskets. Although dangerous at range and not at all helpless in hand to hand combat, they still rely on pike formations to protect them from enemy cavalry. Not being especially wealthy or intended for melee, most musketeers are unarmored.

Pikemen
Although gunpowder has becoming increasingly more prevalent among the infantry, roughly half are still armed with pikes for melee combat. They fight in large formations effective at stopping cavalry charges, and serve primarily to protect the musketeers. Most pikemen wear breastplates.

Close-Quarters Infantry
These are infantry intended more for personal combat in tight quarters, rather than as part of the lines in major battles. Broadly, they include halberdiers, greatswordsmen, bodyguards, and irregulars. Their equipment varied according to their status, with the professional commonly wearing breastplates.

Irregulars
Militia units raised by individual cities, given little training and armed with whatever is available. They are generally unarmored and frequently armed with arquebus's and other obsolete weaponry.



Obviously, the PC's are not expected to be attracted to all of these, and will most likely be Close-Quarters Infantry, Cuirassiers, Carbineers, and possibly Dragoons.

Again, please keep the comments coming.

Hawriel
2007-12-10, 02:23 AM
What about artillery and engineers. I know players would most likly shy away from being an artillierist (proper word?) but an engineer would be a very enteresting character. Particularly in a campain set during a seage. They could last for years after all.

kentma57
2007-12-10, 09:19 AM
If you ever get this campin done I would be interested in playing.

But back to the stuff you are working on, it all looks quite interesting have you considered; prices, other equipment (such as, metal casting kits or backpowder mixing sets), and how easy will it be to find such stuff, will every NPC have one or will you have to break into the enamies fort?

EDIT: engineers and such could be interesting, they might be able to modifie weapons to be better at different things, ex: range, power, accurace.