5e Swashbuckler: Single Class, Single weapon! No M/C and no magic... can it be fun?

[Shadowdagger213]

Just like the title says. I'm currently playing in a low level campaign, "Rime of the Frost Maiden", first time 5e for all players, including the DM (of whom, I taught to play 3.5e over 10 years ago: my Stepson! :smallsmile:)

My biggest reason for wanting to stick to my character as-is, is that my Wife, who hadn't played in a very long time but wanted to start again; she started rolling her stats with a d20... and it was allowed! No player has less than 2 natural 20's in their array! So this opens up multiple feat opportunities for all!

I've read so many multiclass ideas, had so many return answers come back as "You should've played an Arcane trickster" and OMG on the Booming Blade builds...

I'm looking for ideas on feats, magic items (to hope for), and strategy. I just want to play the Swashbucker Rogue to the best of his abilities before I try to make him into something he's not.


The Party:
(Hill)Dwarf Fighter - Eldritch Knight
(Mountain)Dwarf Fighter - Rune Knight (They're brothers)
(Protector) Aasimar Paladin - Oath of Vengeance?
(Standard?) Tiefling Rogue - Soulknife

And me:

Wood Elf Rogue Swashbuckler: Level 3, almost 4th so ASI or Feat coming soon

STR: 10
DEX: 20 (18+2)
CON: 20
INT: 14
WIS: 20 (19+1)
CHA: 20

Rapier (Purchased and left behind to be Silvered, so I don't have it yet. Making the best use of Shortsword and Daggers, and Longbow)

Current AC = 17 (Studded Leather +12/DEX +5)

I'm thinking either Sentinel, Fighting Initiate, Piercer or Tough for my 4th level feat.

I've toyed with a 1 level dip into Fighter to grab a Fighting Style (Dueling?), but still want to stay "pure", so Fighting Initiate - Dueling would be my choice instead.

Ranged option - hang back, (hide), Steady Aim, rinse and repeat. Not boring for me at all, only getting one attack/round so guaranteed S/A from 80ft away works fine for me in some instances. Given the environment of this campaign where it's perpetually dark and snowing almost all of the time, I can even hide in the open! (Wood elf- Mask of the Wild)

I'm probably going single weapon moving forward, because within the current system, I can't figure out how to emulate the combat style of a certain Dark Elf Hero that my character has heard about and come to idolize!

Now, if someone can suggest a way to do accomplish the above and still remain a Rogue.... maybe a cross between the above Ranger and a certain other member of his race who is known to wear an eyepatch and a big funny hat!

(If you aren't familiar with the references, I'll clear that up once I get some suggestions!

GITP Forums, make me Stabbier? :smallbiggrin:

[Damon_Tor]

I have a hard time looking at rogue builds focused around melee: why? So you'll have a longbow as your "ranged option" then you'll switch to your rapier... why? What would motivate you to deal the same amount of damage way up close to the dangerous thing?

You're going to need to dual wield. If only to give yourself an excuse to close in and strike from up close.

[solidork]

I have a hard time looking at rogue builds focused around melee: why? So you'll have a longbow as your "ranged option" then you'll switch to your rapier... why? What would motivate you to deal the same amount of damage way up close to the dangerous thing?

Sentinel would be one. Their party is chock full of other melee people so it seems like the ideal setup to get reaction Sneak Attacks with Sentinel.

[J-H]

If I remember correctly, ROTM is pretty light on magic items. I wouldn't plan on anything.

Melee rogues are
1) more fun
2) less boring (more opportunities for shenanigans with items, terrain, etc.)
3) easier to get sneak attack with

I would go with dual wielding, since it gets you another chance to land your sneak attack every round. You have a +10 to initiative already, so you'll likely go first. If you don't want to get into melee right away (so that the fighters and paladins can go in first), take along some ball bearings and caltrops to toss for cheap battlefield control.
Using a feat for the fighting style nets you +5 damage on rounds when you make your off-hand attack. That's actually pretty decent, and if you land your off-hand attack every other round, beats out the Dueling fighting style.

The Dual Wielder feat itself is +1 ac and can simplify weapon-drawing if your table tracks that sort of thing, and if you're swapping back and forth between a bow.

With the party you have, you may have trouble getting next to enemies occasionally. Consider a whip as a ranged dexterity weapon. It's also stylish.

I would look at the Skill Expert type feat (+1 stat, expertise, etc.).

If you go scimitars instead of shortswords, you have slashing weapons and can use the Slasher feat for a free speed debuff once per round. That said, you have a melee-heavy part, so enemies probably won't risk the OAs to run away.

The Sentinel feat (not whip-compatible) lets you get OAs pretty regularly in melee, which gives you a second chance in the round to set off your sneak attack. The disadvantage of this is that it incentivizes enemies to target you, competes with Uncanny Dodge at 5th level, and your AC is going to stay lower than the sword-and-board-and-plate types. Consider talking someone else in the party into getting Sentinel as well.

[CTurbo]

Sure a single class Rogue can be a lot of fun.

For single class Swashbuckler feats, I'd go with these for sure.

Sentinel

Magic Initiate: Find Familiar, Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade

Martial Adept: Riposte and Brace

Fey Touched for Misty Step and Bless


Between Sentinel, Brace, and Riposte, you'll be able to hit really hard off-turn with your reaction using Sneak Attack.

Find Familiar is amazing for anybody, but especially for a sneaky Rogue.

The blade cantrips are awesome on a Swashbuckler. You can walk up, stab with Booming Blade, and then walk away every time.

Misty Step is also amazing for any sneaky character. I really like Bless on Booming Blade Rogues as you REALLY want to hit with your single attack, and it's not like you're doing anything with your concentration.


You're not likely to get higher than that, but if you do, Lucky, Mobile, Observant, or Piercer would be decent picks.

I would NOT take a feat for Dueling. +2 damage per round is not worth it.



If you're interested in Multiclassing, a single level of Divine Soul Sorcerer gets you the blade cantrips, Bless, Guidance, Silvery Barbs, and some extra healing.

I could see merit in taking a few Bard or Warlock levels for tons more utility and other fun things. Swords Bard in particular.

I would 100% either go the Booming Blade route OR dual wield. It's silly not to do one or the other IMO. Usually the Dual Wielder feat isn't worth it, but if you already have 20s everywhere, it's not terrible.

[Willowhelm]

You’ve kind of put so many restrictions in place… is the question just what feats you should take? To what end? Pure damage?

FWIW I would consider the multi class options and reduce the restrictions. The character concept should be paramount, not the game mechanics that get you there.

Eg. With that dex and Wis, a monk dip for unarmored defence (20 ac and both hands free) is attractive. Especially going into melee. I think it still works thematically. I’d go quite far down that path personally.

On the magic front - so many non-magic RP things can be done by taking magic options and reflavouring. Sure, find familiar is a spell but it’s a great beast companion mechanically. Shield is magic but can be reflavoured as a sudden burst of agility to avoid a blow…

What do you want the character to do/be?

Edit: with four stats at 20 the multi class options are so open it makes me sad that they’re not going to some otherwise impossible MAD build. Some gloomstalker ranger would work with the RP I think? I’m really unclear how “swashbuckling” the swashbuckler PC wants to be vs death from the shadows

[Dualight]

I'm slightly surprised no one has suggested racial feats yet.

Elven Accuracy is great for any rogue. Sure, with OP's stats the +1 is forced to go into Intelligence, bur the super-advantage doesn't care which stat you raise with it, just that the attack roll uses a stat that could be raised with the feat.

Wood Elf Magic is also neat, longstrider is a nice little buff to your movement when you expect to need one, and pass without trace is a capability no one else in the party is likely to acquire without multiclassing. The druid cantrip of your choice can be nice, too.

As for getting better at stabbing, specifically, Fighting Initiate is an 'always on' buff to your damage, although it is entirely passive.

If big damage outweighs melee, then Sharpshooter is a no-brainer with your DEX. Tack on Crossbow Expert (or Gunner if you find any firearms) to not get stuck juggling weapons and your primary weapon switches to the longbow.

[Kane0]

You have 20 cha and tons of melee mates, why not inspiring leader?

[H_H_F_F]

Two points here:

Point one:

So, the reason you've seen so many booming blade suggestions, and the reason Magic Initiate is suggested in this thread even after you've specifically asked no magic, is just how perfect of a match booming blade and swashbuckler is.

You already know rogues don't get extra attack, and they really want their bonus action for cunning action - so attack cantrips are great for them. Swashbuckler specifically is designed to get in-and-out of combat: rakish audacity means you want to melee enemies, fancy footwork means you can go in and out of melee while using your cunning action to dash rather than to disengage. So: you get in, you sneak attack, and you get out. That's what swashbuckler does. Booming Blade makes it so that sneak attack does way more damage, and that an enemy that wants to chase you or go for your friends has to take even more damage to do so. Match made in heaven. It's just one feat for a little magic, not going arcane trickster or multiclassing; if you're interested in mechanical efficiency, you might want to reconsider. Otherwise, plenty of suggestions have been made.

Point Two

your dice are broken.

No, for real. Not as a fun thing to say, these dice are straight up off, and you need to throw them away. I know you've probably realized how magnificent your scores are: two nat 20s, one nat 19, one nat 18. I'm ignoring the 18 and 19 for a moment - but remember, that's unlikely too, and would compound on top of he coming calculation.

The odds of getting a nat 20 in 6 rolls is about 26%. It's unlikely, but it'll happen.

The odds of getting 2 or more nat 20s in 6 rolls is 3.27738%. It's incredibly unlikely.

And it happened to all 5 of you, no exceptions. 5/5.

The odds of that? about 0.0000037%.

1 in 26 million or so.

That's not "wow, that's rare!" territory. It's just practically impossible with fair dice, straight up.

Add back the question of the 18/19 (what would be your odds of getting at least 18 in two of these rolls), and the odds of this total mess just eclipsed your odds of winning the Powerball. It'd be more likely for you to win the Powerball with one ticket than it would be for your party to roll the way you did.

No matter how unlikely you think it is that your dice are unfair, I promise you, it's more likely than that. I promise you. At some point, "improbable" just becomes "no".

Throw them away.

[Unoriginal]

A single class Swashbuckler Rogue can be very fun and efficient.



I'm probably going single weapon moving forward, because within the current system, I can't figure out how to emulate the combat style of a certain Dark Elf Hero that my character has heard about and come to idolize!

There is a special option for that in Rime of the Frostmaiden.

[Damon_Tor]

Sentinel would be one. Their party is chock full of other melee people so it seems like the ideal setup to get reaction Sneak Attacks with Sentinel.

Unless I'm missing something, why would sentinel regularly get triggered in this party? Why would an NPC adjacent to the rogue not swing at the rogue? Why would he swing at one of the fighters? Is the paladin planning to use his spell slots on Compelled Duel maybe?

And why be a swashbuckler if your plan is to get into melee and then stay there for OAs? The swashbuckler subclass gets the ability to back out of melee. And the "taunt" ability you get later is also an anti-synergy, if you're getting sentinel to generate off turn attacks.

[LudicSavant]

STR: 10
DEX: 20 (18+2)
CON: 20
INT: 14
WIS: 20 (19+1)
CHA: 20

The heck are these attribute scores

[H_H_F_F]

The heck are these attribute scores

He mentioned that they used a d20. As I elaborated in my comment, the dice are clearly imbalanced.

[LudicSavant]

He mentioned that they used a d20. As I elaborated in my comment, the dice are clearly imbalanced.

They could be rolling 4d20 drop lowest and it still wouldn't produce scores like that.

The heck are these attribute scores.

[H_H_F_F]

They could be rolling 4d20 drop lowest and it still wouldn't produce scores like that.

The heck are these attribute scores.

Wack dice :smallshrug:

[Damon_Tor]

The heck are these attribute scores

It's a quirk of quantum physics, Schrodinger's dice. When players roll their stats without a DM observing them, the results can be anything. So the rolls are both great and terrible until the DM actually sees the character sheet at which point the waveform collapses. We just happen to be in the observable reality in which the character rolled 4 post-racial 20s and nothing under 10. In some other timeline there's some poor guy trying to figure out how to play a character with two 1s a 2 and a 3.

[Mastikator]

With your insane ability scores I'd take something other than DPR. Like Inspiring Leader, Mobile or Magic Initiate.

I do think a swashbuckler should grab 1 level of fighter, not just for the duelist fighting style but also for the shield proficiency so you can actually swash your buckler.

[LudicSavant]

It's a quirk of quantum physics, Schrodinger's dice. When players roll their stats without a DM observing them, the results can be anything. So the rolls are both great and terrible until the DM actually sees the character sheet at which point the waveform collapses. We just happen to be in the observable reality in which the character rolled 4 post-racial 20s and nothing under 10. In some other timeline there's some poor guy trying to figure out how to play a character with two 1s a 2 and a 3.

I find this highly suspicious.

[CTurbo]

In a little bit of defense against those stat rolls, I've seen some pretty wild stats, and have done a couple of wild rolls myself.

We rolled d20s for stats with my Monk/Warlock and I rolled two nat 20s and a 18 so started off with 20 Dex, Wis, and Cha.
I rolled three 18s in a 4d6 drop lowest and played a single class Paladin.
I've witnessed somebody roll nothing lower than a 15, and I've witnessed somebody roll nothing over a 10.

I actually like rolling d20s for stats as it allows for some wild stats which is always fun. We don't always do it, but when we do, anything lower than 4 gets rerolled, but it's not uncommon to see some 4s and 5s. It makes for some really fun characters.

Lizardfolk Barbarian with a 4 Cha was played as just really disgusting, stinky, vile, and rude.
Paladin with 4 Dex was played as ridiculously clumsy.
Halfling Barbarian with 4 Int was played as a feral wild child raised by wolves.
Wizard with 5 Str was played as very old and frail.



Inspiring Leader and Wood Elf Magic were actually a good call outs that I just didn't think about.

[H_H_F_F]

I find this highly suspicious.

Doubt anyone would cheat this openly. I'll rate the 10 first possibilities that come to mind, from most to least likely:


Bad dice.
Story got some flourishing from the table to the forum.
Never even happened, just easier to get the necessary advice with this background than explain the actual story, which is much more esoteric. What they call a "white lie".
Intentional cheating.
I'm hallucinating this entire thread.
I'm dreaming.
I'm long-term delusional, hallucinating this entire forum.
Some weird quantum event that'd revolutionize physics.
Some unknown entity with powers beyond our understanding has decided to start revealing itself.
Coincidence.

[Unoriginal]

I find this highly suspicious.

Rolling three 20s is just as likely as rolling three 4s or three 12s. It's unlikely but not some kind of math anomaly.

I know someone who rolled 001 on a d100 once per session, for five consecutives sessions.

[H_H_F_F]

In a little bit of defense against those stat rolls, I've seen some pretty wild stats, and have done a couple of wild rolls myself.

We rolled d20s for stats with my Monk/Warlock and I rolled two nat 20s and a 18 so started off with 20 Dex, Wis, and Cha.
I rolled three 18s in a 4d6 drop lowest and played a single class Paladin.
I've witnessed somebody roll nothing lower than a 15, and I've witnessed somebody roll nothing over a 10.

I actually like rolling d20s for stats as it allows for some wild stats which is always fun. We don't always do it, but when we do, anything lower than 4 gets rerolled, but it's not uncommon to see some 4s and 5s. It makes for some really fun characters.


Probability analysis given above. Our intuitions when it comes to probability are very bad. What happened to you that one time is unlikely. What happened to this party, when we take into account the 18 and the 19, is about as likely as me guessing correctly that you, CTurbo, will be struck by lightning on October 2nd, 2032.


Rolling three 20s is just as likely as rolling three 4s or three 12s. It's unlikely but not some kind of math anomaly.

I know someone who rolled 001 on a d100 once per session, for five consecutives sessions.

You're ignoring a couple of things here.

First, this isn't like someone telling you "I rolled 4 nat 20's in a row this one time." This isn't selection bias - someone rolling thousands upon thousands of d20 rolls, that picked this event out of it because it is worth remembering and telling. This is incidental information - presumably, the OP would have asked us the exact same question no matter how the party rolled. He probably wouldn't have bothered telling us about the rest of the party's amount of nat 20's if it wasn't remarkable, but he still would've given us his attributes and told us how the party's doing. This is super important, as it means that these are (supposedly) very close to being truly random rolls. No selection bias, unlike with the previously given example.

Second, it's true that a 20 is as likely as a 3. If op rolled two 3's, and told us everybody else in the party rolled at least two 3's as well, I would've made the same call. The repetition is the interesting part. Any roll is as likely as any other, but if I rolled 10d20 and got certain results, and you rolled them and got the exact same results, we'd have good reason to suspect that we're not dealing with fair dice. Imagine someone flipping a coin and getting heads a 100 times in a row. You wouldn't take a "fair" bet on tails, because you'd have good reason to assume that the coin isn't a fair coin - despite the fact that on a fair coin, heads is just as likely as tails, and not inherently significant in any way.

Which brings me to my final point. As I said, even if it would've been 3s, I'd have told op to ditch their dice. However, it should be noted that there's a massive amount of dice out there that are unfair and inclined to roll high - and accidentally getting your hands on a set of those is just infinitely more likely than these rolls being made on fair dice on character creation.

[LudicSavant]

Rolling three 20s is just as likely as rolling three 4s or three 12s. It's unlikely but not some kind of math anomaly.

This is significantly more unlikely than 3 natural 20s.

[Kane0]

Given the party you have, ritual caster might not be a bad choice?

Otherwise id go with mobile, inspiring leader or lucky

[Catullus64]

Very particular to your build, but a Wood Elf Swashbuckler Rogue can get good use out of Skulker, otherwise a pretty poor feat. Mask of the Wild + Skulker gives a lot of opportunities to hide in-combat, especially in a module like Rime of the Frostmaiden. Free OA avoidance from Fancy Footwork and extra movement from your race means more ability to escape melee to get into hiding spots. The ranged attack feature is nifty if not huge for a melee build, and the dim light benefit is useful for anybody with Darkvision.

Is it optimal? Not by a long shot. But if you can make it work, it's cool as heck.

I also second those who have proposed Inspiring Leader, if it fits your character's personality.

[Yakk]

Martial Adept: Riposte and Brace.

This gives you a 1/short rest extra sneak attack more reliably than Sentinel, unless your DM really likes triggering Sentinel.

The key to doing more staby staby as a rogue is reaction based attacks to trigger an extra dose of Sneak Attack.

[Psyren]

1) OP didn't roll three or four 20s - they rolled two 20s, an 18, and a 19.

2) It looks like everyone in the party has high stats like these (i.e. "everyone has at least two 20s"), so there's actually no problem. It's not like the OP is an outlier; the DM just has to make the fights a bit harder for their EL/skill level than expected. I don't see accusing them of cheating or using weighted dice as being helpful.

3) @OP: +1 on picking up a SCAGtrip via Magic Initiate or similar. Are you getting level 1 feats in your background?

[LudicSavant]

1) OP didn't roll three or four 20s - they rolled two 20s, an 18, and a 19. We know. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25875460&postcount=23)


2) It looks like everyone in the party has high stats like these (i.e. "everyone has at least two 20s"), so there's actually no problem.

That's part of what makes it statistically preposterous.

If you generate stats by rolling a d20, it's weird if none of your stats are below 10, weirder to end up with 4 post-racial 20s, and weirder still (by orders of magnitude) for everyone in the party to have multiple 20s. Weird enough that we essentially must conclude that there is some missing detail for how these stats are generated, whatever that may be.

[Damon_Tor]

We know. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25875460&postcount=23)



That's part of what makes it statistically preposterous.

If you generate stats by rolling a d20, it's weird if none of your stats are below 10, weirder to end up with 4 post-racial 20s, and weirder still (by orders of magnitude) for everyone in the party to have multiple 20s. Weird enough that we essentially must conclude that there is some missing detail for how these stats are generated, whatever that may be.

There are DMs who allow unlimited rerolling. They can just roll 6d20 as many times as it takes for them to get an array they want to play.

[CTurbo]

In my groups, every player rolls for stats openly, and each player can choose from any of the other players stat rolls. This could be what happened here. That one time when I rolled two 20s and an 18, every other player used my rolls except one guy who specifically wanted worse stats for reasons.

[Psyren]

That's part of what makes it statistically preposterous.


Again, so what/who cares? Even if there's some hidden rule we don't know about like "everyone gets at least two 20s" or "reroll everything under 10" or even "reroll as often as you want" like Damon_Tor said that led to this, what matters is that everyone at the table has good stats and therefore the game is fair.

[LudicSavant]

Again, so what

So exactly what I said. People comparing it to the likelihood of rolling three 20s in a row are off by orders of magnitude.


what matters is that everyone at the table has good stats and therefore the game is fair.

That matters to you, not me. You just barged into the thread and started strawmanning HHFF and then going "who cares?" to the subjects other posters were discussing. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

That matters to you, not me. You just barged into the thread and started strawmanning HHFF and then going "who cares?" to the subjects other posters were discussing. :smalltongue:

Because I thought the tone towards the OP was overly harsh, including people saying things like "throw out your dice" and "intentional cheating." So yeah, I "barged into the thread" to put forth another point of view. That's allowed on a forum.

[LudicSavant]

I don't see accusing them of cheating or using weighted dice as being helpful.

Because I thought the tone towards the OP was overly harsh, including people saying things like "throw out your dice" and "intentional cheating." So yeah, I "barged into the thread" to put forth another point of view. That's allowed on a forum.

HHFF did not, in fact, accuse him of intentional cheating, any more than he accused himself of being long-term delusional, or claimed that some unique event that revolutionized physics had occurred.

[Psyren]

HHFF did not, in fact,

I was neither singling out HHFF nor you with my original comment. And I'm still not. I've said my peace.

[LudicSavant]

I was neither singling out HHFF nor you with my original comment. And I'm still not. I've said my peace.

That comment doesn't apply to anyone in the thread.

[CTurbo]

Ok guys lets get back on topic.

How he got his stats ultimately doesn't matter to what he's asking.

[H_H_F_F]

Psyren, I did not mean anything offensive by "throw out your dice", and I'd like to apologize to OP if it came across that way. Seriously, I'm sorry.

The reason I brought this up is not that there's anything wrong with the entire party playing with Uber-attributes. In fact, I'd say it's probably a good thing for balance overall - Martials are still more MAD than casters in 5E, right?

I did not, at any point, advocate for rerolling their abilities, or anything like that. I said what I very literally meant - dice that roll like this are imbalanced, and unlike just rolling attributes, actually playing with imbalanced dice can very negatively affect the entire gaming experience, in my opinion. I think that's a very much in consensus. Therefore, I recommend throwing them away.

There are cheater dice out there. Me and my friends accidentally used one for half a session before realizing something was off - that die came in a dice mega-pack, and had multiple 20's on it - we just didn't notice. When we realized what was going on, we safely sequestered it away. That's all I meant. Again, OP, I apologize if that came across the wrong way.



As for everyone suggesting that there were infinite rerolls, free-20's, or any other significant story details that we weren't given - I'd find it very strange if OP bothered telling us the whole backstory with accidentally rolling a d20, but not mention these details, which is why I think imbalanced dice are a more probable cause.

Still, I think such an omission is far more probably than anything else except bad dice, and it's exactly the sort of thing I meant with option 2 in my "likelihood scale".

[Psyren]

Again, it was just an example, not a singular callout - and as I said previously and CTurbo reinforced, I've said my peace on the subject.

One thing I wanted to ask the OP about when they get back:



I'm probably going single weapon moving forward, because within the current system, I can't figure out how to emulate the combat style of a certain Dark Elf Hero that my character has heard about and come to idolize!

Did you mean Drizz't here? Because you seem to be going for an einhander / rakish Errol Flynn style with a single weapon like a rapier. That would fit better with emulating someone like Jarlaxle, but "hero" isn't exactly the first word that comes to mind for him, at least for me.

[H_H_F_F]

Did you mean Drizz't here? Because you seem to be going for an einhander / rakish Errol Flynn style with a single weapon like a rapier. That would fit better with emulating someone like Jarlaxle, but "hero" isn't exactly the first word that comes to mind for him, at least for me.

I think they were making the point that they don't know how to emulate Drizz't in 5E, so they're going einhander instead.

[Psyren]

I think they were making the point that they don't know how to emulate Drizz't in 5E, so they're going einhander instead.

Right - and I wasn't sure if that was a conscious shift or simply not knowing how to make a decent TWF rogue (since that's Drizz't's most defining trait.) Or even if the OP did in fact mean someone else entirely like Jarlaxle.

[H_H_F_F]

Right - and I wasn't sure if that was a conscious shift or simply not knowing how to make a decent TWF rogue (since that's Drizz't's most defining trait.) Or even if the OP did in fact mean someone else entirely like Jarlaxle.

Maybe he wants that storm of blades style of fighting that Drizz't did. In 3.5, you can have 4 attacks with your main hand and 3 with your off-hand before even starting to consider ways to increase number of attacks - that's just the default twf tree. Sure, it's far from optimized, but it can be done.

In 5E, only fighters attack that much, and your off-hand is "stuck" as a single attack. Drizz't's whole thing is two blades working completely in unison, ambidextirity, etc. Can't do that, not really. Maybe that's why OP drifted away?

[Damon_Tor]

...or claimed that some unique event that revolutionized physics had occurred.

Cut two slits into a piece of cardboard and shine a light through it onto a backdrop. The photons from the light technically have an equal chance to hit each spot on the backdrop they can get through with those slots evenly, and yet the photons manage to cluster up into odd bands when observed.

It's just that, but with dice.

[LudicSavant]

Cut two slits into a piece of cardboard and shine a light through it onto a backdrop. The photons from the light technically have an equal chance to hit each spot on the backdrop they can get through with those slots evenly, and yet the photons manage to cluster up into odd bands when observed.

It's just that, but with dice.

:smalltongue:

[Wasp]

With the restriction on one weapon and no magic I think it might be worth looking into the possibility to pick up the Revenant Blade feat and a Double-Bladed Scimitar for a bonus action attack with a weapon that counts as a finesse weapon you (thanks to the feat).

[Shadowdagger213]

Sentinel would be one. Their party is chock full of other melee people so it seems like the ideal setup to get reaction Sneak Attacks with Sentinel.


I like this answer....!

[Shadowdagger213]

He mentioned that they used a d20. As I elaborated in my comment, the dice are clearly imbalanced.

So Far my ability scores are the only 20's I've rolled with them. The dice are brand new and I'm not the only one with an array like that. Actually one of the Dwarves didn't read the "no attributes above 20" rule and is playing with a 22 in his strength.

We still miss with attacks and crit fail often.

(I almost died when my wife rolled a 1 on an attack roll , then rolled a 20 when the DM determined that her crit fail actually hit me instead! Another rogue at low levels hit me with 2d6+5+4d6 S/A)

I got lucky once with these dice, they're fine...

[Shadowdagger213]

1) OP didn't roll three or four 20s - they rolled two 20s, an 18, and a 19.

2) It looks like everyone in the party has high stats like these (i.e. "everyone has at least two 20s"), so there's actually no problem. It's not like the OP is an outlier; the DM just has to make the fights a bit harder for their EL/skill level than expected. I don't see accusing them of cheating or using weighted dice as being helpful.

3) @OP: +1 on picking up a SCAGtrip via Magic Initiate or similar. Are you getting level 1 feats in your background?


THANK YOU!

I almost rewrote my stats to say this...

Thank you for noticing, sometimes tangents like these are the reason that I don't post here as often as I used to.

[Shadowdagger213]

We know. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25875460&postcount=23)



That's part of what makes it statistically preposterous.

If you generate stats by rolling a d20, it's weird if none of your stats are below 10, weirder to end up with 4 post-racial 20s, and weirder still (by orders of magnitude) for everyone in the party to have multiple 20s. Weird enough that we essentially must conclude that there is some missing detail for how these stats are generated, whatever that may be.

We rolled 1d20 6 times, and rolled 3 full sets. Then chose the best set. Lots of low numbers on the other two sets.

[Schwann145]

Everyone quoting any statistics against these die rolls is already wrong.

Remember: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

Rolling 3d20 and getting 2 20s is wildly different odds than rolling 1d20 3 times. :smalltongue:

[Yakk]

Rolling three 20s is just as likely as rolling three 4s or three 12s. It's unlikely but not some kind of math anomaly.

I know someone who rolled 001 on a d100 once per session, for five consecutives sessions.
So the thing is, I can stand in front of you and flip a coin and get a heads.

I can do it 20 times in a row. You can examine the coin, and it will be fine. You can give me a coin to replace the one I'm flipping, and it will land heads.

After 20 flips, I'll make it land tails 20 times in a row. Then I'll make it alternate between heads and tails.

Now, this sequence of events is just as likely as any other sequence of heads and tails.

But, even if you can't see how I'm doing it, you can be really really certain I'm cheating.

The thing is, while every set of results is equally likely, the set of results of "wow those ability scores are insanely good" is an extremely small one in the space of possible results.

As there is plenty of a-priori reason to suspect that high ability scores are the result of cheating, when a set of rolls produces such insanely good ability scores, the reasonable responses are:

a) You just won 3 powerballs in a row by buying 3 tickets and never playing before lucky.
b) You cheated, you liar.
c) Your dice aren't fair dice, or your rolling method isn't a fair rolling method.

Of these, (a) can honestly be discarded.

(b) cannot be mentioned in polite company.

(c) is thus the conclusion that is reasonable and polite.

[Psyren]

THANK YOU!

I almost rewrote my stats to say this...

Thank you for noticing, sometimes tangents like these are the reason that I don't post here as often as I used to.

No problem, happy to have helped.

[Hiro Quester]

I could see merit in taking a few Bard or Warlock levels for tons more utility and other fun things. Swords Bard in particular.


I know you said you'd prefer not multi classing, but Whispers Bard is a also really good combination with Swashbuckler.

I particularly like the irony of the Bard side giving you stealth/spy/impersonation options, while the Rogue side is all performance and showiness. You play as though you are a Swords bard/Rogue as your cover, but adds a fun secret identity dimension to your play. It's very fun.

It plays like adding better casting than Arcane Trickster to a rogue chassis, while giving it a different theme, too. The whisper bard's psychic damage also augments your sneak attack, to keep overall damage up as though you hadn't multiclassed (though it's only CHA bonus times per short rest, it is often plenty).

And it gives more opportunities for skill proficiencies and expertise than single class Rogue.

And it makes excellent use of that 20 CHA for more than just your initiative bonus.

[KorvinStarmast]

You have 20 cha and tons of melee mates, why not inspiring leader? One of the best suggestions in the thread. Level +5 Temp HP every short or long rest for each party member.

For the OP:

The rest of the party:

(Hill)Dwarf Fighter - Eldritch Knight
(Mountain)Dwarf Fighter - Rune Knight (They're brothers)
(Protector) Aasimar Paladin - Oath of Vengeance?
(Standard?) Tiefling Rogue - Soulknife

You are light on spell casters, which is fine.
Your Swashbuckler

Wood Elf Rogue Swashbuckler: Level 3, almost 4th so ASI or Feat coming soon

STR: 10 DEX: 20 CON: 20 INT: 14 WIS: 20 CHA: 20
With those stats I'd have played a monk, but let's look at your feat for level 4.

You don't have a cleric, you do have a paladin. Occasional healing available but I suggest Inspiring Leader at level 4.
This provides some temp HP each short or long rest which mitigates some of the damage taken. Party friendly and thematically appropriate for a Swashbuckler/charismatic rogue.

If you don't want to do that for 'reasons' then Magic Initiate at level 4.

Cantrip: Booming blade
Spell: Find Familiar
Cantrip 2: either Green Flame Blade or mage hand. (The latter is for picking locks at a distance to reduce trap damage when it crops up). With as many melee characters as you have, I'd go with mage hand.

At level 8

The feat of the two above that you didn't take at 4.

An advantage of doing the magic initiate / cantrips at level 4 is how Booming blade works with fancy footwork (explained above by another poster).
Beyond that, the need to begin doing magical or elemental damage as monsters show up with more resistances and immunities probably comes up before level 8, but for sure by then you'll want some since, as above, you are light on casters.

At level 12 - campaign may be over...but a feat like Fey Touched is a nice rounding out of your Wood Elf; bless is a great spell to help the party per the previous suggestion.

Another reason on why I suggest Magic Initiate:
You are a rogue, you are a scout (so too is the Tiefling). Find familiar turns your scouting abilities up to 11. Rat, cat, bird, lizard, fish. You can send your familiar forward to find a few things out or get through cracks to see what is there.

Enjoy. :smallsmile:
(Your stats are awesome for a Monk, way of shadows, just saying. :smallbiggrin: )

[LudicSavant]

Everyone quoting any statistics against these die rolls is already wrong.

Quite to the contrary, they were proven correct; the OP confirmed that they were rolling 3 sets and choosing the highest, rather than just one. In the post immediately above yours, no less (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25921985&postcount=49).

[Schwann145]

Quite to the contrary, they were proven correct; the OP confirmed that they were rolling 3 sets and choosing the highest, rather than just one. In the post immediately above yours, no less (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25921985&postcount=49).

"Wrong" as in, it's a losing argument even if your math is correct, not "your math is incorrect."
You'd have to quote my whole post to get that context though. :smallyuk:

[H_H_F_F]

So Far my ability scores are the only 20's I've rolled with them. The dice are brand new and I'm not the only one with an array like that. Actually one of the Dwarves didn't read the "no attributes above 20" rule and is playing with a 22 in his strength.

We still miss with attacks and crit fail often.

(I almost died when my wife rolled a 1 on an attack roll , then rolled a 20 when the DM determined that her crit fail actually hit me instead! Another rogue at low levels hit me with 2d6+5+4d6 S/A)

I got lucky once with these dice, they're fine...


THANK YOU!

I almost rewrote my stats to say this...

Thank you for noticing, sometimes tangents like these are the reason that I don't post here as often as I used to.

I'm aware of the 20/20/18/19. I've referenced it.

Choosing best of three for each person changes things. I'm not going to do the calculation of by how much it changes things, since it seems I've offended you. I really don't want to be the reason anyone posts less than they used to, and I apologize if at any point I seemed unkind or unhelpful.

[Lokishade]

I play Swashbuckler Rogue in melee while wielding one weapon and will never use it any other way.

That's because I love using Grapple. With Expertise in Athletics and a 12 in strength, I'm as much of a bully as a 16 str Fighter at level 1, and then I get ahead at higher levels. And if I don't grapple, I have a free hand for item usage, like potions, caltrops, or to pick up something precious lying around. With Cunning Action Dash, I get to be the mobile medic, ressucitating fallen party members with potions before the Cleric can even react or get to the scene. Can come clutch in emergencies.

I take the Tavern Brawler feat, which allows me to sneak attack and then grapple as a bonus action, freeing me of the dilemma. This feat also gives me proficiency in improvised weapons, which allows me to chuck all the types of grenades with accuracy. Also, I can conceal darts to sneak them into social events, and then use them in melee if/when negociations fail, because I can often convince my DM that an unorthodox use of a weapon makes it improvised. Sometimes I even get advantage because of how creative and unexpected this is. But even if I don't get that, the rest of the bonuses are already solid.

Grappling makes it worth it for me. I love it because it's makes me feel like I'm fighting dirty, which is what a class named "Swashbuckler Rogue" should do, in my mind. I love being in the fray, foiling everything the enemy throws at us.