Technical on snapping a whip with an arrowshot

[Regneva]

Haley does this in strip #511. She shoots and sunders the whip in half.

I was wondering how this was possible. I'm guessing it is a very lucky critical hit like the one heard round the dungeon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0059.html) of Dorukan

Or perhaps it is possible through DM's will: "Ok, it looks cool and dramatic and it is combat ineffective, and she has the levels and as long as it doesn't unbalance the encounter, so why not"

Or perhaps she has a certain feat for doing this. It might explain why she wasn't able to hit Redcloak while he entered the castle on his pink elephant. The feat might only be working on items.

So what do you think?

[Boodi]

Quote from SRD:

You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. (Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.)

So I think it's a DM intervention...

..unless it's a magic melee bow with slashing/bludgeoning arrows which I highly doubt.

[eNBeWe]

I'm sure Haley has the feat "Ranged Sunder" (Complete Warrior) which allows you to sunder a weapon with ranged weapons (even with arrows). But this can only be used in a 30-foot-range.

[FujinAkari]

Ranged Sunder seems a VERY stupid feat for Haley to have (Haley... intentionally destroying sell-able loot? O.o).

More likely, Haley has ranged disarm (Also Complete Warrior) or Precise Shot, etiher of which could be attributed to this strip with creative license.

[eNBeWe]

Well, Ranged Disarm would also be my favourite choice (keeping the loot in one piece), but she clearly destroyed the whip.
Stating the rules she has to have Ranged Sunder, but it could also be house-ruled by Rich.

[Alex Warlorn]

Or she just declared a call-shot to the whip.

[TorJin]

Or maybe, just maybe, Rich decided to break D&D rules because it made the story just a little bit better?

[Jalyn Callow]

I think Haley may have picked up a PrC along the way, that gives her an ability to perform a feat like that. Perhaps there's some sort of Freedom Fighter PrC that allows for making such attacks to prevent others from being oppressed.

[drmike]

I was wondering how this was possible. I'm guessing it is a very lucky critical hit like the one heard round the dungeon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0059.html) of Dorukan

Doesn't always work though:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html

[mockingbyrd7]

...
Or perhaps it is possible through DM's will: "Ok, it looks cool and dramatic and it is combat ineffective, and she has the levels and as long as it doesn't unbalance the encounter, so why not?"...

I think this is most likely.

[The Wanderer]

Rule of Funny (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny)/Rule of cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool).

[Regneva]

Doesn't always work though:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html

Well that's why I thought it was a critical it (since critical hits don't occur everytime) The strip you've linked was the one I was talking about.

[SlightlyEvil]

Rule of Funny (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny)/Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool).

Basically, this is one of the key rules of the strip. I mean, he openly broke the rules of how Control Weather works because it was funny that way. Overall, games should never let overly restrictive rules get in the way of fun.

[The Extinguisher]

Or maybe, just maybe, Rich decided to break D&D rules because it made the story just a little bit better?

You fool! You crazy crazy fool!

[Jawajoey]

It's a dramatic incident. A cutscene, if you will. It's not real combat, just a heroic description.

[David Argall]

To quote myself from another thread...

By D&D rules, she needs the Ranged Sunder feat to cut it, so unless she made that dubious choice, she auto fails.

Her chance of hitting the whip is quite good. She is at least +13 vs about
+2 for the hob. Even with -4 for a light weapon, she is a huge favorite to outroll him and hit the whip.

Now she has to deal enough damage, which can be a problem. She gets only half damage trying a ranged sunder, and then you have to beat the hardness before you do any damage. Whip hardness is presumably 5, so that means she needs 12 points of damage to sunder the whip. Since your normal arrow does 1-8, 12 is not easy to achieve.
Not impossible. Assuming a strength bow, she gets to add a point or two for muscles, but she can't have a big strength. But if we put a little magic on the bow we can move the total up there pretty good. It's still probably a minority chance, but it is doable.

On the other hand, we are working under drama rules, which gives her +/-20 according to the needs of the plot. Since a hit here works well with the plot, she hits, and sunders.

[Chronos]

Now she has to deal enough damage, which can be a problem. She gets only half damage trying a ranged sunder, and then you have to beat the hardness before you do any damage. Whip hardness is presumably 5, so that means she needs 12 points of damage to sunder the whip.Leather has only 2 hardness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#smashinganObject), and 5 HP per inch of thickness. If we assume the whip is about 1/2 inch thick, she'd only need 8 or more damage. If her bow is +3 (about on a par with most other magic weapons we've seen), and if her Point Blank Shot damage applies, then she needed to roll a 4 or better on the d8, which is better than even odds.

[....]

Durkon cut a tentacle in half with a hammer and you're worried about a whip and an arrow?

....:smallconfused:

[NikkTheTrick]

Durkon cut a tentacle in half with a hammer and you're worried about a whip and an arrow?

....:smallconfused:
That pretty much voids the whole discussion:smallbiggrin:

[Schulzy]

It amuses me how every litle think must be scrutinized under the rulse of DnD on these boards. I say she rolled a critical miss, and actually meant to thot the hobgoblin in the head. When she missed, but snapped the whip, she pretended that she wanted to do that all along.

[monty]

It amuses me how every litle think must be scrutinized under the rulse of DnD on these boards. I say she rolled a critical miss, and actually meant to thot the hobgoblin in the head. When she missed, but snapped the whip, she pretended that she wanted to do that all along.

Let me see that fumble chart...

[Kreistor]

Ranged piercing weapons cannot sunder weapons without Ranged Sunder, so if it is DM fiat, it is the Giant literally breaking the rules. I don't see the Giant breaking a rule that severely just for a special effect.

[monty]

Homebrew feat or something? I don't see why it HAS to be core. That, or it's just the Giant breaking the rules. It's not like he hasn't done it before.

[NikkTheTrick]

Ranged piercing weapons cannot sunder weapons without Ranged Sunder, so if it is DM fiat, it is the Giant literally breaking the rules. I don't see the Giant breaking a rule that severely just for a special effect.
Considering that breaking does not have consequences (whip is unlikely to be used as weapon by a hobgoblin soldier when he can use a sword), I would not view that as a severe rule breakage.

[David Argall]

Durkon cut a tentacle in half with a hammer and you're worried about a whip and an arrow?

....:smallconfused:

Of course. D&D allows you to sunder with a bludgeoning weapon like a hammer. But unless you have the right feat, you can't do it with a piercing weapon like an arrow.

And we have to examine the rules carefully, because we know our writer would never never consider violating them, no matter how much it might add to the story. No, he has precisely followed D&D rules all the way.

Of course, now that you mention it, Durkon needed to hit for about 50 points of damage to sunder that tenacle, which does sound a little outside his normal range. A critical?

[TDG]

The arrow traveled with the speed and ability of the plot.

[†Seer†]

And we have to examine the rules carefully, because we know our writer would never never consider violating them, no matter how much it might add to the story. No, he has precisely followed D&D rules all the way.


Please, please, please tell me I'm so tired that I can't tell if that is sarcasm or not and that it actually is... Durkon+Weather Control=Breakage of the rules, if you wanted to be strict on core.
Giant has precisely followed the rules of Plot all the way. He maintains D&D rules very nicely, but if plot needs, he will break them.

[Kreistor]

Please, please, please tell me I'm so tired that I can't tell if that is sarcasm or not and that it actually is... Durkon+Weather Control=Breakage of the rules, if you wanted to be strict on core.
Giant has precisely followed the rules of Plot all the way. He maintains D&D rules very nicely, but if plot needs, he will break them.

Yeah, I don't understand that either. I think he's trying to provoke someone, but no idea whom. Some might have thought me, but we know David is perfectly aware of my involvement in the Geekery thread where we had to deal with Belkar's Wisdom, and other times he has broken the rules by accident or intent. Rules breaking by the Giant is inherent in our decision making processes.

Oh, and David, you might want to check the HP on Giant Squid Tentacles. You're off by a smidge. (Read: Durkon could do it with a normal max hit with a +1 weapon and 12 Str.)

[Chronos]

Yes, the Giant has been known to break the D&D rules on occasion. However, it's rare, and when he does, he usually acknowledges it (as with the Control Weather example). If anything, he's more likely to deliberately stick to the rules, even when it doesn't make sense, so as to make fun of them (as with Durkon sundering the tentacle with his hammer). So, since it's rare for him to break the rules, I think the default assumption should be that he's following them, subject to correction if further evidence comes in.

[chibibar]

It is funny to see people keep saying that The Giant is breaking the rules.. what rules?? this is his world, his creation of a D&D "type" world. There could be any rules (house rules or anything) that we don't know about.

It also could be a spoof from movies where you see hero sunder weapon where it is nearly impossible.

[The Extinguisher]

She rolled high on her dramatic entrance check.

There. Problem solved.

[F.H. Zebedee]

I'm going with Haley's player declaring that she was shooting the whip, as if attacking the item, not sundering. The DM decides "Sure, she can do that." and lets her take a shot at a fine object with hardness 5 and HP 3 or whatever it is for a half inch of leather. And Haley pegs it.

Maybe not fully in the rules, but the highest chance of success.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yeah, the OotS is unoptimized, but toughness is more likely to be useful than "ranged sunder" :smallyuk:

[Prince_Rohan]

The arrow traveled with the speed and ability of the plot.

This one gets my vote. You can spout all the rules you want, cutting a leather whip with an arrow ain't going to happen. I used to shoot archery with Jay Barrs and we used play this game called a "purse shoot" which is a bag of goodies hanging from a piece of string. Cut the string (with an arrow), get to keep the purse.

It is very, very hard - and that is taunt string standing still.

Unless Chris Gaddis gets on and posts otherwise, let's chalk it up to great story telling by Rich.

[FlyMolo]

Were I DM, I would houserule that you can ranged sunder stuff, even without the feat. Haley's within 30 feet, anyway. Roughly.

Sometimes, people get +30 coolness modifier to their rolls.

[FujinAkari]

Q: What are the character.s D&D stats? Will you ever create character sheets for us to see?


A: There are no hard-and-fast stats for the characters. I find that if I were to ever commit exact stats to paper, I would feel limited in what I could have these characters do in the future. For example, I might want to make a strip spoofing a particular feat, only to find that I didn.t give it to any of my characters. As a result, there will never be official game statistics for Roy, Elan, and the rest. As a rule of thumb, I tend to think of them as being around 7th-9th level or so; powerful enough to have a bunch of different storytelling options, weak enough that I can justify them running away from anything I throw at them.

According to Rich, he explicitly does not restrain himself by what feats a character may or may not have.

[Kreistor]

But it's still fun to try, Fujin. Can't you let us have our fun, despite its futility?

[Thamir]

Well we already know that hayley has some arrows made of special materials http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html so why are you assuming its not an arrow of adimantine surely after having been around elan for so long she would know the importence of having the the right arrow to achieve the right dramatic effect.

[FujinAkari]

But it's still fun to try, Fujin. Can't you let us have our fun, despite its futility?

I suppose... but I will work TWICE as hard to steal Chrismas as a result!