Optimizing a Conjuration Wizard 2 / Fast Hands Rogue? Throwing Acid for fun?

[Wasp]

Hi everyone!

I was thinking that it would be really cool to be a character who can create an item with an action through the Conjuration Wizard's Minor Conjuration Class Feature and then use your bonus action through the Rogue Thief's Fast Hands to use that item - like a flask of acid.

How would you optimize a character who can do that? An investment of 2 levels in ConjurationWizard and 3 levels for Thief Rogue might be a bit much, you would probably be better by just sneak attacking than throwing stuff you can't sneak attack with.

Are there some other options? What should one do after Wiz 2 / Rogue 3 (and possibly Tavern Brawler to get you proficiency in improvised weapon attacks)?

Would all of this change if the DM allowed "Fast Hands" for any Rogue of at least third level regardless of subclass?

Edit: Changed the incorrect Evocation to Conjuration where I could. I am just ... *sigh*

[elyktsorb]

I mean, isn't the Conjuration Wizard (gunna assume you meant Conjuration Wizard and not Evocation Wizard) part of this ultimately superfluous?

I mean yeah, acid is expensive if you're just chucking it willy nilly, probably way more effective to just find an alchemy jug and spend time pouring your own acid. But as a 3rd level rogue, unless you have the option of buying +number armors or weapons, what else are you spending gold on?

2 levels just to have acid seems like a silly thing. Tho as a thief rogue there's really no reason not to spend your bonus action throwing acid at people, assuming you already hit with your main attack and got your sneak attack damage, throwing an acid vial is an additional 2d6 for no investment past gold, which can be more damage than you'd get with other no investment options like an offhand attack.

It's especially silly when you consider that you'd be wasting your action, that will most likely net you far more damage than the acid, creating the acid.

[Wasp]

I meant conjuration. Yes. Thank you for pointing this out!

But in the end, you are right. This idea isn't really savagable. You are investing to much for getting too little.

Thanks for taking the time to answer, though :smallsmile:

[clash]

I wouldn't discount it too strongly. It's a cool idea and it might be less effective than simply buying acid but for 1 acid won't always be the right solution. What if what you need is caltrops? Or a million other things. Being able to decide on the fly is useful. Also for number 2 summoning what you need feels a lot better than constantly spending your hard earned gold on consumables.

Finally, you're still getting two levels of wizard out of the deal which gives you a lot more than just minor conjuration. Even first level spells can be useful for a rogue. Charm person, shield, find familiar. You might want to take a third level of wizard as it basically doubles your magical ability with second level spells and slots.

All in all unless you're in a high optimization game this could be a fun build.

[kazaryu]

Hi everyone!

I was thinking that it would be really cool to be a character who can create an item with an action through the Conjuration Wizard's Minor Conjuration Class Feature and then use your bonus action through the Rogue Thief's Fast Hands to use that item - like a flask of acid.

How would you optimize a character who can do that? An investment of 2 levels in ConjurationWizard and 3 levels for Thief Rogue might be a bit much, you would probably be better by just sneak attacking than throwing stuff you can't sneak attack with.

Are there some other options? What should one do after Wiz 2 / Rogue 3 (and possibly Tavern Brawler to get you proficiency in improvised weapon attacks)?

Would all of this change if the DM allowed "Fast Hands" for any Rogue of at least third level regardless of subclass?

Edit: Changed the incorrect Evocation to Conjuration where I could. I am just ... *sigh*

i mean...before you worry to much about optimizing this idea i would ask my DM if they even allow the wizards conjuration feature to work that way. its not RaW. and to be clear, when i say its not raw, i don't mean to say its impossible to interpret the feature that way. My point is that the feature is written fairly ambiguously, and its not uncommon for DM's to call shenanigans on you trying to use a feature that creates an 'object' to create a...liquid. In fact, personally i think its an incredible stretch to claim that any reasonable reading of the 'minor conjuration' feature would allow you to create a vial of any type of liquid. a vial? absolutely, but filled with liquid? no likely. However, im not your DM, im just bringing this up because if i were your DM and you just...showed up without consulting me first claiming that you were gonna just...create a vial of acid. i'd be somewhat annoyed. and then i'd tell you no. and thats just...not fun for anyone. so definitely consult your DM.


That said, assuming the DM is perfectly ok with the interaction (i don't really believe thats its all that broken so long as you stick to just...basic acid or poison. its when you start trying to conjure vials of like...drow poison or purple wurm poison that its gets to be ridiculous.). that said you're right that 5 levels is a fairly high investment. "optimizing" it would likely involve seeking stronger acids/poisons that you could learn to incorporate. or other liquids with varying effects. tavern brawler would definitely be beneficial for proficiency. once you get to rogue 3 then putting more level sin wizard, at least up to wizard 6 is probably a good idea for benign transposition (this doesn't do anything for the theme...but if you're gonna go conjuration wizard you may as well get a pseuodo free teleport out of the deal, and obviously wizard 2nd and 3rd level spells aren't bad either.


interestingly...3 levels of battlesmith artificer actually seems like it could be interesting. it for sure would need DM approval, but the summoned object is 'visibly magical' which...i mean a permissive DM might allow you to use the battlesmiths feature for that (i.e. using intelligence to attack. ).

[Catullus64]

I think it's a perfectly good idea for a build, though it may take a little while to fully come alive. The key is mindset: trying to use the Minor Conjuration + Fast Hands trickery every turn is probably less useful than just stabbing someone. It's a once-in-a-while niche trick that you can use to solve unique problems in combat or provide some extra utility. Outside of that combo, Rogue 3+/Wizard 2 of any subclass combo is a fun build, one that I've played quite a lot of. The nice thing about Wizard in particular as a casting dip for a Rogue is that your bag of 1st-level spells can be expanded without any additional level investment.

[Damon_Tor]

By my reading, the in-game definition of "object" excludes liquids.

However, a college of creation bard can create vials of acid (as they create "items" not objects) and an artificer can create an alchemy jug as an infusion. So it's doable, just not with the particular multiclass combo you imagine.

Of course one has to wonder if losing 2-3 levels of rogue is worth it to replace your bonus action dual-wielding attack with a 2d6 attack you aren't proficient with. Considering the loss of sneak attack progression the whole exercise is pointless.

Just get proficiency in alchemy tools and distill your own acid. Based on the crafting rules you should be able to make acid for half the purchase price.

[RogueJK]

The main issue with basing your entire character around it is that the damage and save DCs of the various mundane adventuring equipment pieces don't scale with level. They're balanced to not be overpowered for a 1st level PC who buys some at a store or with their starting gold, but as a result, they end up severely underpowered once you get past early levels.

Similarly, they're improvised weapons, so with the ones like Acid that require an attack roll, you don't get to add your scaling Proficiency Bonus to the attack rolls unless you also spend a feat on something like Tavern Brawler. Thus your attack bonus won't scale with level either, unless you effectively waste a feat.

So as a result, focusing on chucking Alchemist Fire/Acid/Caltrops/Ball Bearings/etc. is not really a great option much past early/mid Tier 1. But it could be a fun trick for a short time, like a 5th level one-shot. (Though even there, you'd be sacrificing an ASI, Uncanny Dodge, and 1d6 sneak attack compared to just a 5th level Thief who just buys some flasks at the store or brews their own with Alchemist Supplies...)


If you wanted to do a more effective alchemy-themed character, you could reflavor something like an Alchemist or Artillerist Artificer, or even just a straight Conjuration Wizard. You could reflavor some of their cantrips like Acid Splash or Conjure Bonfire as you throwing acid or alchemist fire vials, and many of their leveled spells as other alchemical creations like a flamethrower, bombs, vials of oil, etc. And unlike the basic equipment, those options will scale with level, both damage and attack roll/save DC.

[Snowbluff]

How would you optimize a character who can do that? An investment of 2 levels in ConjurationWizard and 3 levels for Thief Rogue might be a bit much, you would probably be better by just sneak attacking than throwing stuff you can't sneak attack with.

You can actually sneak attack with flasks. They are improvised weapons, and thus are weapons which are obligated to be ranged or melee, and if you use them as a ranged weapon by attacking at a range, they become viable for sneak attack.

That's the RAW for the rules for weapons, but it is also RAI. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/956671107939016704?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E956671107939016704%7Ctwgr%5E 4af65b6a0feac445e707e16ac2d89e5e414e564a%7Ctwcon%5 Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2Fdoes-alchemists-fire-on-hit-adds-dex-modifier-to-damage%2F)

[Sigreid]

Is there a reason you can't just say "this is the form my acid splash cantrip takes"?

[Damon_Tor]

You can actually sneak attack with flasks. They are improvised weapons, and thus are weapons which are obligated to be ranged or melee, and if you use them as a ranged weapon by attacking at a range, they become viable for sneak attack.

That's the RAW for the rules for weapons, but it is also RAI. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/956671107939016704?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E956671107939016704%7Ctwgr%5E 4af65b6a0feac445e707e16ac2d89e5e414e564a%7Ctwcon%5 Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2Fdoes-alchemists-fire-on-hit-adds-dex-modifier-to-damage%2F)

An improvised weapon isn't a ranged weapon just because you use it to make a ranged attack. You can't sneak attack with a rock by throwing it. And unless Twitter's terrible UI is hiding another reply later in the thread, Crawford says nothing to support a sneak attack with an improvised weapon in this tweet: he says you use dexterity to make ranged attacks unless another rule provides an exception, which means that attacking with alchemist's fire and similar items will use dexterity.

[Snowbluff]

An improvised weapon isn't a ranged weapon just because you use it to make a ranged attack. You can't sneak attack with a rock by throwing it.

It is a ranged weapon because you use it to attack at a distance. That is the definition of a ranged weapon in the system. Unless there is a way to describe an improvised weapon without it becoming a weapon, we don't have another way to use it. Which is to say, you have it backwards, it becomes a ranged weapon because all weapons have to fit into either of the two categories.

Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to atta⁠ck a target at a distance.

I see the assertion that improvised weapons are not weapons a lot, but I cannot say the texts supports this. It's a weapon with a qualifier, but a weapon it remains.

[Damon_Tor]

It is a ranged weapon because you use it to attack at a distance. That is the definition of a ranged weapon in the system. Unless there is a way to describe an improvised weapon without it becoming a weapon, we don't have another way to use it. Which is to say, you have it backwards, it becomes a ranged weapon because all weapons have to fit into either of the two categories.

I see the assertion that improvised weapons are not weapons a lot, but I cannot say the texts supports this. It's a weapon with a qualifier, but a weapon it remains.

The system includes rules for improvised weapons explicitly to cover "an object which bears no resemblance to a weapon".

[Snowbluff]

The system includes rules for improvised weapons explicitly to cover "an object which bears no resemblance to a weapon".

Yes, you have called it an improvised weapon. We agree that it is now an improvised weapon. A weapon, that is improvised. I am now irrevocably bound to conclude that it is now a weapon, with every rule that pertains to weapons now pertains to it.

[Willowhelm]

It is a ranged weapon because you use it to attack at a distance. That is the definition of a ranged weapon in the system. Unless there is a way to describe an improvised weapon without it becoming a weapon, we don't have another way to use it. Which is to say, you have it backwards, it becomes a ranged weapon because all weapons have to fit into either of the two categories.


I see the assertion that improvised weapons are not weapons a lot, but I cannot say the texts supports this. It's a weapon with a qualifier, but a weapon it remains.

The first paragraph is refuted by a handaxe (among others). It is a melee weapon, in the simple melee weapon table, with the possibility of ranged attacks due to the thrown property. It doesn’t become a ranged weapon when used as such.

A rock as an improvised weapon is likely to be similar to a club, maybe a greatclub or a mace, if the DM is ruling it as similar enough.

A dart and a net are the only ranged weapons with thrown in the basic equipment tables. A rock isn’t really similar to either.

[Snowbluff]

The first paragraph is refuted by a handaxe (among others). It is a melee weapon, in the simple melee weapon table, with the possibility of ranged attacks due to the thrown property. It doesn’t become a ranged weapon when used as such.

A rock as an improvised weapon is likely to be similar to a club, maybe a greatclub or a mace, if the DM is ruling it as similar enough.

A dart and a net are the only ranged weapons with thrown in the basic equipment tables. A rock isn’t really similar to either.

Specific trumps general on the handaxe. Open and shut.

A rock is similar to no weapon on the chart (assuming the DM says it does not). Ergo, we cannot ascribe its traits by using the chart and have to use the general rules. It is ranged if we are using it to make an attack at a distance, or melee if it is within 5 feet. It does not have the thrown property, as the general weapon and improvised weapon rules don't actually tell us how to assign it without a DM ruling.

[Blatant Beast]

“It is a ranged weapon, because I am throwing it” 🤦

According to my calculations there can be no response to this.

One problem with the O.P’s concept of conjuring endless vials of acid, is Minor Conjuration allows you to conjure a simple, singular object.

A glass flask is a singular object. A glass flask full of purple worm poison is a compound object. You either get the flask or the poison with Minor Conjuration.

[sithlordnergal]

So, its a bit trickier because you're limited in how many flasks you can make, but I think Creation Bard/Thief Rogue would work a bit better for your purposes. It removes the potential DM ban because Creation Bards can create items from the PHB, and even uses the Equipment Section as an example of what you can pull from.

Also, you eventually get to create more expensive items, so you can upgrade from standard items to special, expensive poisons and more. Until you reach level 14 and start making Siege Weapons with ammo to snipe things, and then turn them into Dancing Objects cause why not xD

[Goobahfish]

Is there a reason you can't just say "this is the form my acid splash cantrip takes"?

My thoughts exactly.

Throwing Acid Flasks and Alchemist Fire has always seemed like an interesting gimmick, but the game really doesn't support it as a proper strategy. By level 5, Acid Splash is strictly better than throwing Acid (against most things anyway).

[elyktsorb]

I wouldn't discount it too strongly. It's a cool idea and it might be less effective than simply buying acid but for 1 acid won't always be the right solution. What if what you need is caltrops? Or a million other things. Being able to decide on the fly is useful. Also for number 2 summoning what you need feels a lot better than constantly spending your hard earned gold on consumables.


See, the primary problem with this is that the conjuration ability only lasts on one item at a time, so you could never have both acid, and caltrops at the same time. Even just from the standpoint of making the character all about using as many 'use an action' items as possible, even at the cost of your usual damage, just buying the items and being able to use 2 of them per turn is almost certainly going to be more worthwhile than spending your action to make 1 item and then your bonus action to use it.

It also means you can never actually prepare anything in advanced, you can't lay out a grid of caltrops, or ball bearings, or devise a trap that drops multiple acids. Would it be useful to be able to pull out exactly something that could be used at anytime, sure, but that's 2 levels that could arguably be spent better.



Throwing Acid Flasks and Alchemist Fire has always seemed like an interesting gimmick, but the game really doesn't support it as a proper strategy. By level 5, Acid Splash is strictly better than throwing Acid (against most things anyway).

That's not entirely true. For starters, in the context of a Thief, the Acid Vial would be a 5th level Acid Splash (minus the ability to hit another target) as a bonus action. So against any single target you basically have a bonus action acid splash's worth of damage. And you have access to this at level 3, 2 levels before acid splash does 2d6, the damage is then comparable since it's 2d6 versus one target, or potentially 1d6 at two tho you can still do it as either an action or a bonus action which makes it more flexible.

[Goobahfish]

See, the primary problem with this is that the conjuration ability only lasts on one item at a time, so you could never have both acid, and caltrops at the same time. Even just from the standpoint of making the character all about using as many 'use an action' items as possible, even at the cost of your usual damage, just buying the items and being able to use 2 of them per turn is almost certainly going to be more worthwhile than spending your action to make 1 item and then your bonus action to use it.

It also means you can never actually prepare anything in advanced, you can't lay out a grid of caltrops, or ball bearings, or devise a trap that drops multiple acids. Would it be useful to be able to pull out exactly something that could be used at anytime, sure, but that's 2 levels that could arguably be spent better.




That's not entirely true. For starters, in the context of a Thief, the Acid Vial would be a 5th level Acid Splash (minus the ability to hit another target) as a bonus action. So against any single target you basically have a bonus action acid splash's worth of damage. And you have access to this at level 3, 2 levels before acid splash does 2d6, the damage is then comparable since it's 2d6 versus one target, or potentially 1d6 at two tho you can still do it as either an action or a bonus action which makes it more flexible.

Ha ha ha, yeah you can make a kind of niche build. But Acid Flasks don't really interact well with existing game mechanics like Extra Attack, nor do they inherently scale (like cantrips). I think for a low-level campaign it could totally work, but once you hit level 5 it starts looking pretty so-so bonus action Acid vs Bonus Action 'sneak attack proccing off-hand' is definitely a case of aesthetics over substance (which is very cool). Beyond that, it just loses steam.

[RogueJK]

That's not entirely true. For starters, in the context of a Thief, the Acid Vial would be a 5th level Acid Splash (minus the ability to hit another target) as a bonus action. So against any single target you basically have a bonus action acid splash's worth of damage. And you have access to this at level 3, 2 levels before acid splash does 2d6, the damage is then comparable since it's 2d6 versus one target, or potentially 1d6 at two tho you can still do it as either an action or a bonus action which makes it more flexible.

The tradeoff being that the Acid Splash cantrip's save DC utilizes your Proficiency Bonus, but the acid flash's attack roll does not since it's an Improvised Weapon. So Acid Splash is potentially more likely to land its damage.

In addition, this specific build requires a 5th level PC to begin with (Conjurer 2/Thief 3). So Acid Splash will be doing the same 2d6 damage as an acid flask at that level.

[follacchioso]

The acid flask trick will not be effective, but other synergies exist. Rogue/Wizard is not such an unusual combination.

You could cast Invisibility on yourself, and use Fast Hands to rob people, stealing the BBEG's arcane focus or the evil paladin's big sword. By RAW, invisibility only ends when you cast a spell or roll an attack, and Fast Hands is neither of those.

Similarly, your minor conjuration trick is not considered a spell, so it doesn't break your invisibility. You could go around invisible for one hour, steal a magic gem and replace it with a conjured version of it, and run away as fast as you can.

Not the strongest combat combo, but it could be fun in the hands of a twisted player :biggrin:

[stoutstien]

If I wanted to make a mundane adventure gear chucking build I would use artificer. It's not technically free but you can break any economy by level 10 anyways so gold won't be an issue.

-can get you two of the tool Prof you'll need. Glass blowing, alchemist, and blacksmith. The third can come with your background. Could possibly use pottery as well.

This way You can make one alchemist fire or acid flask per LR.

- access to a bonus action way to launch them (homunculus) and a way to supplement your supply (alchemist jug). Oil is also cheap and you have fire bolt.

All that comes online by level two and you still have your subclass and all the other goodies as well.

[Jak]

To the OP:
As others have suggested, go look for more potent acids and poisons, view them when they are frozen if you must, and keep a supply of glass vials and bottles. Capitalize on those utility spells. (Catapult would be nice if the target is farther than you can yeet.)

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On the note of what would or would not qualify as an object:

Liquids not objects:
If a raindrop falls from a cloud, it isn't an object. However, if it's cold enough out for it to freeze, an becomes a ball of hail, it becomes an object?

Compound objects not eligible:
To the second one, could the conjuration wizard conjure a candle? What about when the wax melts?
A juicy steak?
A book?
A knife with a buckhorn handle?
A fruit gusher?
A frozen sphere of acid? Does it disappear when it melts?

[Damon_Tor]

Liquids not objects:
If a raindrop falls from a cloud, it isn't an object. However, if it's cold enough out for it to freeze, an becomes a ball of hail, it becomes an object?
Yes.

Compound objects not eligible:
To the second one, could the conjuration wizard conjure a candle? What about when the wax melts?
Yes, he could conjure a (unlit) candle. When he lights the candle it takes fire damage and it vanishes as per the rules of that feature.[/quote]

A juicy steak?
If I'm being orthodox, no, a transmuter cannot create a wet object. Also, if you bite, cut, or digest the steak it takes damage and thus vanishes.


[Quote]A book?
As a rule of thumb, anything that would have to be damaged to be disassembled is an object. Most books are bound in such a way that they could not be taken apart without tearing them, and so would qualify as a single object.

A knife with a buckhorn handle?
Probably counts as object.

A fruit gusher?
No.

A frozen sphere of acid? Does it disappear when it melts?
Yes, you could create a frozen object which is normally liquid at room temperature. As soon as it begins to melt it is effectively taking damage and thus disappears.

[Greywander]

Not sure if homebrew is an option you'd consider here but this is basically the cornerstone of my Wandering Merchant (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637192-Check-out-my-stock-Wandering-Merchant-rogue-subclass), which is a rogue subclass. (Note: The Google doc is more up to date than what's posted in the forum thread.) The Wandering Merchant's whole schtick is that they can create and use items as a BA, and they also gain proficiency in improvised weapons and the ability to Sneak Attack with improvised weapons. The intended MO is that you'll use your action to shoot a crossbow, then your BA to create a vial of acid and throw it. It's a lot more flexible than just that, though, as you can create almost any item. You can even make healing potions and other common magic items.

But perhaps you're only interested in the Minor Conjuration / Fast Hands combo and what it can be capable of. Minor Conjuration is a pretty great ability, to be sure. I just thought it was worth putting this out there in case it might be of interest to you.

[Wasp]

Thank you all for the feedback. In the end it might just be a fun additional feature for Thief to have aside from combat use. I like the idea of a Rogue who can conjure up any item from their pockets that they just need like Thieve's tools when they are imprisoned somewhere or the wanted poster of an enemy they've seen in the past...

As for the discussion what the feature can conjure up I feel that's a discussion that won't lead to much. As kazaryu pointed out it's ambigiously worded and every table will handle it diffently. ;-)