Stone Shape: clarifying some of the rules.

[Ferris]

Here's the basics (so you don't have to look them up) :)

Stone Shape
Level 4 transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: A stone object of Medium size or smaller or a section of stone no more than 5 feet in any dimension
Components: V S M (Soft clay, which must be worked into roughly the desired shape of the stone object)
Duration: Instantaneous

"You touch a stone object of Medium size or smaller or a section of stone no more than 5 feet in any dimension and form it into any shape that suits your purpose. So, for example, you could shape a large rock into a weapon, idol, or coffer, or make a small passage through a wall, as long as the wall is less than 5 feet thick. You could also shape a stone door or its frame to seal the door shut. The object you create can have up to two hinges and a latch, but finer mechanical detail isn’t possible."

It's that "roughly the desired shape" that seems IMHO to be open for abuse. So for example, if you just wanted to quickly carve an arrow in stone on a castle wall, you could manage this using a small stylus on your piece of clay. And if you happened to have a signet ring, you could presumably replicate a 5' wide carving of whatever's on that ring onto the same wall with reasonable accuracy.

What's the sensible limit here? A stone club - sure. A fancy stone scimitar with basket hilt and filigree design? Possibly not? Would you suggest some kind of skill check to determine how well the final design translates from the clay model? Or would you allow anything fancy because the magic is working from what the spell caster is imagining? That then allows 'perfect' statues and the like.

Bonus question: presumably this is a 'permanent until dispelled' kind of effect? So in theory, a Dispel Magic cast a few years after this would still work?

Seems to me that a Level 4 spell's pretty powerful, so allowing anything you can imagine, as long as a rough version's made with your clay, would mean this is actually another of those incredibly versatile spells that rewards imaginative players.

What do you think?

[Quietus]

The answer, as always, will be - what is the goal?

Most often I see people (or am people) wanting to use this to create or block up a hole. That's easy, and anyone with a wad of clay can do that. If the player is wanting instead to use it for fancy things, then unless there's extenuating circumstances (like the ring you mentioned making that symbol), I'm going to ask for Mason's tools check. And almost certainly give them advantage. This can be a big benefit in downtime, creating statues in fractions of the time, or bring speed to a task that would otherwise be limited. There's also the fact that this allows them to re-use the raw material of the statue if they decide they don't like how it turned out.

[JackPhoenix]

Bonus question: The duration is instantaneous. That's very explicitly NOT "permanent until dispelled"

[Unoriginal]

The answer, as always, will be - what is the goal?

I have to ask the same question.

Why would making a fancy scimitar be an abuse of the spell? It fits perfectly within the limits of the spell, which let you get any item provided the size is right and there is no mechanical parts more complex that one set of hinges.

It's not like the item stops being stone, making it heavier and more fragile than metal (unless it's a special stone).

[Willowhelm]

Here's the basics (so you don't have to look them up) :)

Stone Shape
Level 4 transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: A stone object of Medium size or smaller or a section of stone no more than 5 feet in any dimension
Components: V S M (Soft clay, which must be worked into roughly the desired shape of the stone object)
Duration: Instantaneous

"You touch a stone object of Medium size or smaller or a section of stone no more than 5 feet in any dimension and form it into any shape that suits your purpose. So, for example, you could shape a large rock into a weapon, idol, or coffer, or make a small passage through a wall, as long as the wall is less than 5 feet thick. You could also shape a stone door or its frame to seal the door shut. The object you create can have up to two hinges and a latch, but finer mechanical detail isn’t possible."

It's that "roughly the desired shape" that seems IMHO to be open for abuse. So for example, if you just wanted to quickly carve an arrow in stone on a castle wall, you could manage this using a small stylus on your piece of clay. And if you happened to have a signet ring, you could presumably replicate a 5' wide carving of whatever's on that ring onto the same wall with reasonable accuracy.

What's the sensible limit here? A stone club - sure. A fancy stone scimitar with basket hilt and filigree design? Possibly not? Would you suggest some kind of skill check to determine how well the final design translates from the clay model? Or would you allow anything fancy because the magic is working from what the spell caster is imagining? That then allows 'perfect' statues and the like.

Bonus question: presumably this is a 'permanent until dispelled' kind of effect? So in theory, a Dispel Magic cast a few years after this would still work?

Seems to me that a Level 4 spell's pretty powerful, so allowing anything you can imagine, as long as a rough version's made with your clay, would mean this is actually another of those incredibly versatile spells that rewards imaginative players.

What do you think?

It isn’t entirely clear what you’re describing with your examples, nor why they’d be particularly powerful but yes - this is a spell that can reward imaginative players. It’s up to the DM to call shenanigans and talk to the player if they try to abuse it.

Using this level spell to draw an arrow or a signet ring design on a wall is insane to me. Why not use some chalk? Or prestidigitation? Or a rock?

[Ferris]

Thanks for the responses.

@Quietus - thanks! I had forgotten Masons Tools. Makes sense to allow more ambitious results when a PC indicates they are taking more time and care to get the model right.

@JackPhoenix - agreed. Reason I asked was that I have heard people argue that an instant magical change can be reversed.

@Unoriginal - I just think there’s a case to be made that ‘roughly the desired shape’ sets some kind of limit. DM discretion applies if a PC is trying to push beyond reasonableness.I take the ‘remains stone’ point though. Material strength certainly comes into play if you shape a rock into a feather boa (like we all need to do from time to time).

@Willowhelm - I agree with “this is a spell that can reward imaginative players”! I only used the arrow as an example to illustrate the casting process (carving). In an intrigue-heavy campaign, the PC’s might carve a permanent evil symbol over the door of a rival Guild to bring them into disrepute, for example. Chalk or prestidigitation would be too temporary for this. Or if a PC wanted to add some realistic bas relief sculpture on the king’s dining hall wall, perhaps? A myriad of uses, really.

[crabwizard77]

A question I have is what is a rough shape, what qualifies for that?

[jjordan]

Bonus question: presumably this is a 'permanent until dispelled' kind of effect? So in theory, a Dispel Magic cast a few years after this would still work?

Seems to me that a Level 4 spell's pretty powerful, so allowing anything you can imagine, as long as a rough version's made with your clay, would mean this is actually another of those incredibly versatile spells that rewards imaginative players.

What do you think?
I think it rewards the imaginative player and they can make some very intricate and detailed things with it. A rough representation of a sword in the material component clay can be an exquisite work of art in the actual stone. It isn't permanent until dispelled, it's permanent. You aren't enchanting the stone, you're reworking it and it stays reworked unless someone does another spell to rework it. Dispel magic shouldn't do anything to the finished product.

[JackPhoenix]

I think it rewards the imaginative player and they can make some very intricate and detailed things with it. A rough representation of a sword in the material component clay can be an exquisite work of art in the actual stone. It isn't permanent until dispelled, it's permanent. You aren't enchanting the stone, you're reworking it and it stays reworked unless someone does another spell to rework it. Dispel magic shouldn't do anything to the finished product.

"Permanent" and "permanent until dispelled" is the same thing. The word you're looking for is "instantaneous". I know you're probably using the word in plain english, but in the game terminology, the difference matters.

[jjordan]

"Permanent" and "permanent until dispelled" is the same thing. The word you're looking for is "instantaneous". I know you're probably using the word in plain english, but in the game terminology, the difference matters.
I believe I'm using it in the way the game intends:

Instantaneous
Many spells are instantaneous. The spell harms, heals, creates, or alters a creature or an object in a way that can’t be dispelled, because its magic exists only for an instant.


Some spells specify that their effects last until the spells are dispelled or destroyed.

So, in response to Ferris' question:

Bonus question: presumably this is a 'permanent until dispelled' kind of effect? So in theory, a Dispel Magic cast a few years after this would still work?

No, dispel magic won't do anything to something that has been stone-shaped.