Kingmaker (Owlcat)

[Firechanter]

Since I've decided to hold off on BG3 until all the bugs are fixed, I decided to dig out PF Kingmaker again. Which I never got to finish back then, bc a game update killed all my savegames when I was at ~75% progress. So after that trauma I couldn't touch the game for years, which is why I am bringing this up again now. :biggrin:

So! Anyone else still playing?
I'm currently at level 8, and I play with the Call of the Wild Mod, Craft Magic Items and Respec Mod. In case you've forgotten, the standard companions are (for the most part) so horribly built, I just call them Gimpanions. So the mods are helping me with that.

Note that I'm "only" playing on Challenging, so it's not strictly necessary to squeeze the game for every ounce of optimization.ss But I just like seeing well-made concepts come together. And "Valerie the Tower-Shield Specialist that does not have the strength to carry her own gear" is not a well made concept. However I also want my party to work without too much micro-management.

My Main is a Paladin, Strength, Two-Handed, with Cornugon Smash and Hurtful (from CotW). Currently Heavy Armour, but I might respec him for Pyjama later on when I get the necessary gear.

My currently preferred party is:
- Amiri, respecced for proper Str and Invulnerable Rager, going towards Pounce and lots of DR
- Ekundayo, as is
- Linzi, just straightened out her stats
- Octavia, respecced as Exploiter Wizard, has Share Spells with my Main (no Rogue levels)
- Merc Cleric of Erastil, Animal Domain, Leopard pet, secondary archer.

Jubilost got promoted to Senior Chief Executive Crafter Major, Valerie and Harrim are holding down the fort, and I never bothered to even level Regongar and Jaethal, so latrine duty I guess.

So far so good. That party works quite fine.
I'm not quite sure if I'm happy with Amiri yet; she comes so late in the Ini that the combat is usually over before she can make use of her Rage DR. Also, since I know how ridiculously many encounters the later maps will have (Vordakai's tomb, Hour of Rage etc) I'm worried she might run out of Rages before the map is cleared.

And I just don't know if Linzi can be made to work for anything else other than giving +4/+4 and Haste, but I don't want to go without these bonuses either. ^^
The Merc's pet is dishing out quite a bit of damage. But I feel that two pets are enough for the party, might get too crowded if I add more (e.g. via Mad Dog).

Any thoughts, comments, suggestions, anecdotes? ^^

[tyckspoon]

Not running with mods and have combat set to lower difficulty because I just don't really care about needing to try to optimize the builds to hit artificially inflated numbers (or having to remember to set a bunch of short term buffs in order to hit the targets) but:

Control specifically Amiri when you approach a fight. Instead of just advancing until it triggers and everybody rolls initiative, manually activate her Rage and have her charge (I'm using Ekun similarly, as a good many things just start the fight by being dead when you have him pop them with five arrows as the opening action before initiative even happens. He's wearing the Necklace of Double Crosses, so this also helps ensure he gets the Sneak Attack from that by hitting first.) She'll get at least one shot off and be way out in front for enemies to focus on if that's what you want. For Rage usages, I found that to be largely a self-solving problem with more levels - when you have 30+ rounds of Rage to work with it gets pretty simple to spend one or two as needed (using either the Stubborn Fury belt or Heart of Ira necklace to negate rage fatigue so you can just cycle it on/off when you need to.) If you don't have her using one of the fatigue-cancelling items you might be running Rage for longer than you really need to in order to avoid the fatigue penalty?


Valerie and Harrim are holding down the fort, and I never bothered to even level Regongar and Jaethal, so latrine duty I guess
At some point you might want to restat/level them up/give them some items just to make them better kingdom officers. I've usually got Harrim in my party for general Cleric-ing but I also haven't bothered making any mercenary members. Generally find Regongar and Jaethal's mechanics a bit too clunky for using with the Kingmaker interface so they're typically at home for me too.


And I just don't know if Linzi can be made to work for anything else other than giving +4/+4 and Haste, but I don't want to go without these bonuses either. ^^

Hey, she can also place Good Hopes and Dimension Door and disable a really wide area of chump enemies with the Fascinate song and throw GlitterGreases.. Bard doesn't really have to be modified much to be good, especially with a larger party count - having 5 other characters + potential pets and summons to work with means you are already getting a lot of value from multi-target buffs and other support abilities already, she doesn't have to be a self-sufficient damage engine to make her worth having around. (Although when you get a chance to buy them it's worth picking up a Rod of Quicken for her - there's a lot of really good stuff weighted on the lower level Bard spells and dumping 2 of them per turn really cuts down on your in-fight setup time. Especially once she can bard song as a Move - Quicken Haste, Move Inspire Courage, Standard debuff/control spell/Displace your tank/whatever is a very efficient turn.)

[Eldonauran]

I've got a game going with my main character as a Rogue (Eldritch Scoundrel) / Arcane Trickster / Eldritch Knight. Currently level 11 at the moment. If you put them together right, you can go straight from Rogue (ET) into Arcane Trickster at level 5. It'll end up with 14 BAB but once I can cast Transformation, it won't really matter. DEX focused with just enough strength to qualify for Power attack, and some of the tastey feats for it down the line.

Ever since I could, I've made Valerie into a Kineticist, specifically Water/Air. Her Constitution requires doing so. Using Kinetic Blade with an energy blast lets her hit pretty much anything she needs to, gives her a ranged option if her movement is cut short, and lets her be the tanky/healy melee combatant she was always meant to be.

For Amiri, I turn her into a Kineticist as well, specifically Fire/Earth. It is mostly to make her more tanky and to make whatever chooses to hit her take damage for doing so. The level she comes with of Barbarian is not wasted, and I typically let her take another, and then dip two levels into another Full BAB class. This run through she is (will be) Barb2/Ranger2/Kineticist16. Like Valerie, she has a touch attack weapon, a ranged blast, and is all around good.

For the tiefling who has two names I can never spell right, I just turn the character(s) into similar copies of Valerie and Amiri so that I have those options on lock down should I need to swap either out.

Linzi has no need to be altered as far as I am concerned. She is there for bard song, arcane buffs, and overall bard shenanigans. Tristian is similar. He is there for channeling energy, buffing the party, and tossing out his blessing to boosts attack rolls.

Harrim never got much love from me in the past, nor use. I just don't like him much. But this time around, I made sure to take him out and do his quests. I've made him into a Mystic Theurge (Cleric/Empyreal Sorcerer) since I can't alter his Cleric archetype. He is focused on necromancy spells and shakes/rattles the bones of many an enemy.

Jubolist is much like Linzi, I haven't changed much and haven't used much. But I have a new appreciation for Alchemists and their infusion discovery.

Jaethal has been made into a Druid (Defender of the True World) and will have 8 inquisitor levels. She is going to be focused on wildshaping and tearing faces off.

Octavia, another person I rarely use, is going down the typical Arcane Trickster route. Regongar is going to be a Dragon Disciple/Eldrtich Knight. Just enough to pick up that BAB 16.

Ekundayo got shifted towards taking level in Slayer. Sneak attack on his chassis hurts, a lot.

And ... Nok-Nok. Yeah, I took my new found love for Alchemists infusion discovery and made him go down that path, though as a Viviseciontist rather than get bombs.

My kingdom is hovering around the Lawful/Neutral Good zone, and that is how I plan to keep it. So far, we haven't struggled too much.

EDIT: I have made two mercenaries. One as an inquisitor and one as a Sorcerer (sylvan). They supply the two animal companions I like to use as shields.

[Firechanter]

Cool, lots of things to talk about. ^^

I can see how Val would work as a Kineticist. Unfortunately I don't have access to the class. Got the regular edition of KM on Steam, no DLCs. I do own an EE on Epic (from giveaway) but never installed it - not sure if my saves would work there if I did.

Last night I found a pair of duelist gloves (still level 8, mind you) and thought it would be a shame to let them go to waste. So I respecced Val again, this time for DPS (had done a respec to Swordlord before) - straight up Two Handed Fighter. With equal weapons her pure unbuffed stats are way beyond Amiri's - sth like +17 vs +13.
Yes Amiri gets Rage on top but Val gets Warrior Spirit (might be a COTW feat). Val won't get Pounce, that's kinda her biggest drawback, BUT she can UMD. Also they both have Hurtful but Val's chances of intimidating the target are better. I could make a Furious weapon for Amiri but rn Val is just better. And anyway I can always switch between the two. ^^

BTW I also redid Val's doll and portrait so she doesn't run around with that horrible hair helmet anymore. :smallbiggrin:

As for Linzi, yes, her Inspire Courage + Good Hope + Haste and the occasional control spell are reason enough for me to let her tag along. She also gets to shoot a crossbow for recreation.
Meanwhile, Octavia gets to cast her Personal buffs on my Main and otherwise focuses on Control spells like Slow. (I need to work on my repertoire to also include control spells that target Fort and Ref).

Ekun could use a couple of Slayer levels I suppose, but that would add more micro due to Studied Target, so I'm a bit hesitant. Also I wouldnt want to add more Slayer levels than can be cushioned by Boon Companion, but Slayer gets Swift Study only at level 7. Dog may not be the most efficient pet but he is a decent meatshield; Large size helps shielding the Squishies.

[LibraryOgre]

Been a little bit since I played (BG3 and Rebel Galaxy: Outlaw drew me away), but my main was a complicated build... I want to say Paladin 2/Sacred Huntsman 3 (Abadar, Travel)/Ranger X? Wearing that dwarven paladin full plate, and using Corungon Smash and other scaring tactics.

'Miri went Barbarian 1/Slayer X.
Valerie is Fighter 7/ Archaeologist 1/Dragon Disciple 4, then more Fighter.
Ekun picked up 3 levels of Sacred Huntsman ("My animal gets all my teamwork feats")
Harrim switched to a Monster Tactitian.
Jaethal is now a summoning cleric.

Most of the others are straight-classing (with Octavia being set for Arcane Trickster, naturally)

[Firechanter]

I'm still considering giving Octavia that little dip that will allow her to go Arcane Trickster, but for the time being I'm more interested in gaining spell levels quickly. Maybe at some point after level 10. The actual Trickery is handled by Linzi.

I once tried a Monster Tactician -- as Main or Merc, don't remember for sure -- and damn that's a scary class. Like crazy good. If I ever were to try a Solo run, I'd probably go for that.

Slayer sure is a tempting class for any DPS build; haven't tried them in the game but played some in pen&paper, and yeah the DPR was unholy. It's a bit of Micro but arguably less than Barb, so I suppose it makes complete sense to set Amiri on that path.

Also, have you noticed how Barbs have to count their Rage round by round where the Inquisitor can just trigger some Judgment and it lasts "for the encounter"?

BTW, since I mentioned above that I want to diversify my spell portfolio. Any suggestions for good spell/metamagic combos? I think I read Toppling Spell was good, never tried it before though. ^^

--

Side thought: I'm also considering to start a new game on the side, with only the standard companions on auto-level and! an amateurish / unoptimized Main. Like, something from the Tier 4-5 shelf, without any spells. Wonder how far I'd get before throwing away the keyboard in frustration. :smallbiggrin: Or at the very least, how often I'd have to rest.

[tyckspoon]

I
BTW, since I mentioned above that I want to diversify my spell portfolio. Any suggestions for good spell/metamagic combos? I think I read Toppling Spell was good, never tried it before though. ^^


It's good if you're fighting things that are trippable - I'm not sure how effective it'd be in Kingmaker, especially on higher difficulty levels - all those 25 HD Greater Enraged Spellcursed size Huge OwlHydraTreants are going to have enormous CMD values.

[LibraryOgre]

I'm still considering giving Octavia that little dip that will allow her to go Arcane Trickster, but for the time being I'm more interested in gaining spell levels quickly. Maybe at some point after level 10. The actual Trickery is handled by Linzi.

You can manage Octavia with one level of rogue; at level 3, give her Accomplished Sneak Attacker. Level 4 wizard, make sure your skill points are up to snuff, and level 5-14 can be Arcane Trickster, before going back to Wizard, or hitting Eldritch Knight, if you have gotten her Martial Weapon proficiency.



I once tried a Monster Tactician -- as Main or Merc, don't remember for sure -- and damn that's a scary class. Like crazy good. If I ever were to try a Solo run, I'd probably go for that.

If I were to solo, Monster Tactician of Gozreh or Erastil, with Animal domain. At that point, it isn't really "Solo".

[Eldonauran]

Ekun could use a couple of Slayer levels I suppose, but that would add more micro due to Studied Target, so I'm a bit hesitant. Also I wouldnt want to add more Slayer levels than can be cushioned by Boon Companion, but Slayer gets Swift Study only at level 7. Dog may not be the most efficient pet but he is a decent meatshield; Large size helps shielding the Squishies.
Just do the 4 levels of Slayer. Don't even worry about the Studied target, or even using it unless you've got a spare action. Lots of people miss this: Studied target gets applied automatically the first time you hit an enemy with sneak attack, no action required. Take Boon Companion for sure. Sacred Huntsman afterwards is great.

[Firechanter]

One thing I don't understand:

my Main has pretty good Perception (should be +15 or so), one of the best in my party.
Yet, today I noticed several times that he didn't get to act in the Surprise round, even though _I_ initiated combat. [I switch between turn-based and realtime depending on the difficulty of the encounter]
Like, the ini sequence moved through the combatants, and my main's picture was just before a nasty enemy. Then when it was supposed to be his turn -- his picture just flipped back into the next round without the chance to do anything. wtf?

No, he does not have any Oracle levels or Powerless Prophecy.

Anyone have an idea what's going on?

Today this glitch - I assume it's a glitch - was really catastrophic, bc he didn't get to act when I thought he would, so instead of using his turn to move him towards the dungeon boss to tank it, the boss attacked the character that was still closest to him (which was Val) and critted her to -50 or so -- instadeath. I reloaded bc I felt so cheated.

--

When this kind of thing didn't happen, the new and reformed Val (Two-Handed Fighter) proved pretty murderous, often dishing out over 100 dmg on a charge. I just need to take care nobody targets her with Will spells anytime soon, bc her save is really atrocious (+4).
Unfortunately, the Warrior Spirit feat implementation is incomplete -- it offers all kinds of enhancements, except Bane, which in p&p really is the big draw. But even without this she's a force to be reckoned with.

Anyway, in the last random encounter today I made level 9. Need to make up my mind if I want to give Main and Val Outflank now (following up with the pets next level), or pick something else now and take Outflank later. At some point they'll all need Blind Fight, too.

[LibraryOgre]

Just do the 4 levels of Slayer. Don't even worry about the Studied target, or even using it unless you've got a spare action. Lots of people miss this: Studied target gets applied automatically the first time you hit an enemy with sneak attack, no action required. Take Boon Companion for sure. Sacred Huntsman afterwards is great.

I think you can get away with 3 levels of Sacred Huntsman, preserving your BAB. I tend to avoid Slayer on Ekun, because it reduces Okbo's advancement, and Okbo is quite useful.

[Firechanter]

Ekun still has some time to decide. Now on level 9 I took Clustered Shots, which is a must-have, and if I were to add Slayer I'd do it at a level that I can also take Boon Companion.
Not so sure what Sacred Huntsmaster is about. He gets to share his teamwork feats with his pet, yes, but which TW feats synergize between an archer and a pet?

[tyckspoon]

Ekun still has some time to decide. Now on level 9 I took Clustered Shots, which is a must-have, and if I were to add Slayer I'd do it at a level that I can also take Boon Companion.
Not so sure what Sacred Huntsmaster is about. He gets to share his teamwork feats with his pet, yes, but which TW feats synergize between an archer and a pet?

Not a lot directly between Ekun and Dog, but it does effectively allow you to give Teamwork feats to the pet for them to work alongside your other melee characters - since you can't normally select feats for your animal companion this would allow Dog to join in the Outflank/Precise Strike/whatever else pile.

[LibraryOgre]

Not a lot directly between Ekun and Dog, but it does effectively allow you to give Teamwork feats to the pet for them to work alongside your other melee characters - since you can't normally select feats for your animal companion this would allow Dog to join in the Outflank/Precise Strike/whatever else pile.

Exactly this. Plus, a couple of the feats DO work with your archer... both Outflank and Seize the Moment, if someone is flanked by people with those feats, Ekun's criticals will also activate the attack of opportunity.

[Firechanter]

Ah, well if that's all there is to it, then I actually don't need to do the dip... I suppose it's the CotW mod, but I do get to level the pets individually. They always lag 1 level behind, maybe due to racial hit dice, so you get the feats at interlacing levels, but otherwise it's fine. So I reckon I'll just give them Outflank sometime soon.

--

Different topic: which spells -- particularly control spells -- are effective against Undead (and available in the level range you visit Vordakai, I mean)? That's something I've always struggled with, also in P&P. :p Since Undead have tons of immunities - e.g. all Mind-Affecting ofc AND most Fort save spells, on top of other things like Paralysis etc - that makes the list of useful multiple-target spells grow thin.
Maybe Dazing Fireballs, idk. If Dazing Spell makes multiple enemies lose their attacks, that should put the party ahead of the curve.

[LibraryOgre]

Different topic: which spells -- particularly control spells -- are effective against Undead (and available in the level range you visit Vordakai, I mean)? That's something I've always struggled with, also in P&P. :p Since Undead have tons of immunities - e.g. all Mind-Affecting ofc AND most Fort save spells, on top of other things like Paralysis etc - that makes the list of useful multiple-target spells grow thin.
Maybe Dazing Fireballs, idk. If Dazing Spell makes multiple enemies lose their attacks, that should put the party ahead of the curve.

Sometimes, the best defense is a good offense. You know who said that? Mel, the cook on Alice.

Have a cleric along who can turn undead; you won't likely kill the undead, but you wound all of them. Summons are a great form of control spell, since monsters will mob them, trying to take them down, leaving your PCs to attack them... 16 kobolds will get mowed down in 16 attacks, but those are 16 attacks not at YOU, which is a big deal.

Web works well, unless they are big. I'm not sure if it's a later patch or a mod I have installed, but the Pit spells are really useful crowd control.

[tyckspoon]

Grease (Reflex), Glitterdust and Slow (non-Mind-Affecting Will) work on most things and should stay relevant throughout most of the game. Spit Venom is only a one-round blind, but it's effective against most things - ranged touch to apply and then the fort save is against getting poisoned, the blind applies as long as you can make the attack. There are a number of higher level spells that are basically Hold Monster variants, but targeting Reflex and not Mind-Affecting. Obsidian Flow/Ice Storm/Volcanic Storm can make a zone of difficult terrain, and Obsidian Flow is a save-vs-entangle on cast (interestingly compared to things like Actual Entangle and Web, it's not an ongoing effect - just the difficult terrain persists. Considering it lasts a solid -hour- this is probably preferable because you're gonna have to either walk through it after the fight, take the long way around, or kill a lot of time waiting for it to expire.) And the Whatever Pit line of spells Library mentioned are pretty solid too.. although really you can just keep using the good lower level control spells and do fine. Heighten 'em if you want.

(Personally, between finding it too annoying to wait for the spells to expire and playing on a lower difficulty I just killed stuff. Throw a couple of Channel Positives and a fireball or two when you run into the Rooms of 20 Skeletons, have Ekun and Amiri destroy the cyclopes. Respec Ekun and change all his Favored Enemy increase choices to Undead if you wanna tailor hard and don't mind going through the levelup screens a bunch.)

[Firechanter]

the Pit spells are really useful crowd control.

Right, good one. The Pit spells are great to get someone out of your hair for a while -- the drawback is that (at least in WOTR, where I tried them) you can't attack enemies while they are in the pit. I'll have to check how it's implemented in KM but I do have the spells.

--

Guess I should practice working more with Difficult Terrain. After all I have Mass Feather Step available, let alone Mass Air Walk. My mage has Obsidian Flow but I think I only tried it once or twice yet.
Anyway before actually going to the Undead I have the Season of the Bloom ahead of me... so lot's of magical beasts, if memory serves. Not too worried about those; if memory serves the corresponding dungeon was long and confusing and had dozens upon dozens of monsters but the actual encounters weren't that difficult. But before _that_ I still have a few months to go, time to explore and craft and ... hit "Skip Day" a lot, I guess.

[LibraryOgre]

Right, good one. The Pit spells are great to get someone out of your hair for a while -- the drawback is that (at least in WOTR, where I tried them) you can't attack enemies while they are in the pit. I'll have to check how it's implemented in KM but I do have the spells.

Sure, level 2 Create Pit is that way. But later spells have the pit attack them for you.



Guess I should practice working more with Difficult Terrain. After all I have Mass Feather Step available, let alone Mass Air Walk. My mage has Obsidian Flow but I think I only tried it once or twice yet.


A metamagic feat I would I have loved to had was "Communal Spell"... take a single buff spell and apply it to everyone in your party with a +1 LA (which seems to be the standard).

[Firechanter]

TIL that in this game, Warrior Spirit (probably via CotW) does allow you to activate Bane, but it's been nerfed to pointlessness. Instead of just 1 point bonus cost as in RAW it will eat up FOUR points, so you're paying exactly the same amount as buying +2 enhancement and 2x 1d6 energies.
That said, I discovered this option as Val was about to duel this Shelyn dude. So seeing how he was clad in full plate and shield, I activated Brilliant Energy instead. *boing* his effective AC went down from 31 to 15. And Val took him out in the first round, with an AoO for casting a spell and then a regular attack that happened to be a crit. Combined that was around 100dmg and enough to bring him down.

--

When I played this bit back in my first playthrough attempt, Val was also respecced but as a tank, and I kinda cheated in the duel by buffing Val up beforehand and having Octavia prepare the ground with Grease. She also won without the guy ever hitting her, but iirc it took a few rounds.

This time I decided to just let things happen as they come, and boy how they did come. :smallbiggrin:

[Firechanter]

Reached Level 12 now and used the opportunity to clean up Miri a bit. Still made one mistake when respeccing her but I guess it's good enough. Main thing is that now she's got Pounce and Come And Get Me (called Taunting Stance in this game). Even with second-rate gear, she does some 150dmg on a charge. Couldn't even test Taunting Stance yet bc no enemy ever lived long enough to attack her. :smallbiggrin: Been only farming some creeps though, got a few months to go until the next dungeon. I'll craft her some better gear before then.

BTW, is there any way to give your animal companions a name? Other than Okbo I mean. I'd like to christen my cleric's leopard: Bazooka. :smallbiggrin:

[LibraryOgre]

BTW, is there any way to give your animal companions a name? Other than Okbo I mean. I'd like to christen my cleric's leopard: Bazooka. :smallbiggrin:

I find it weird that the game makes a point about Ekun naming his animal companion... but yours remains unnamed.

[Firechanter]

I managed to find that particular setting in Bag of Tricks... it's quite hidden, I had to click through the menus for minutes before finally finding it, but you can rename a pet.
So, now Bazooka the Leopard is ready for action. ^^