[Gestalt] Legacy Master of Nine / (Sorcerer or Wilder?) Shonen/Hero

[Kuro Dmon]

I'm work-shopping another character for a private game with a friend, and for my concept, I've settled on something in the vain of your Fantasy Hero and/or Shonen Protagonist. Not much in the noggin, and the type to lean over to an annoyed ally and ask for simplified exposition, but the type to lead with their heart, jump recklessly into battle, and surprise folk by showing how well they can do in combat if nowhere else.

My friend and I lean towards high resource, mid op games. Don't go full game-breaking, but make interesting characters capable of handling themselves. And I caught a bit of some nerd bug, so I'm trying to see how well I can make that idea work in 3.5. Somewhat restrictive without fully leaning into spells and cheese, and partially because the system really wasn't built for that sort of character (I brought this dilemma up last night while hanging out with different friends, and one of them naively suggested the Monk, which I was under the assumption wouldn't get recommended even in lower power D&D games, and so I wasn't surprised that everyone else immediately started booing the poor lad...)

The part of the build dedicated to "running the hands" was a lot easier than I thought in regards to inspiration. My character is a dirt-poor farmer boy who stumbled into a graveyard and found a legendary sword, and trained up to be able to wield it, then to use it properly, eventually gaining the guidance of the previous heroes who used and trained with that "Aeon Blade". So using Darrin's Archon of 9 build, (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?137260-3-5-ToB-Archon-of-Nine-All-9th-Level-Maneuvers) and having Legacy Champion boost my initiator level to speed up access to higher level maneuvers, for one seems like it'd be pretty fitting for the character in question. If there's enough room, I'd like to look into making my sword of choice an Ancestral Relic, Item Familiar, and a Custom Weapon of Legacy.

But I'd like to make sure I get all the fun utility Shonen powers as well. Flight, Speed, Augment-able Physicality, and Pew Pews (happy to take additional suggestion for stock powers I should shoot for). And I was gonna use the other "side" of the build to push those options. Obviously my Int and Wis are going to be lowish, so casting off of strength of personality seems to be the best game of the day here.

I figure I can get those option as a Sorcerer easy enough, but I'm also wondering how much more I can potentially have room to squeeze into this, just for the sake of versatility of options (my character is being matched with a Favored Soul // Archivist type, for comparative power scaling). I thought that I could get some longevity out of Wild Surge optimization, and I vaguely remember there being an Incarnum combo that could be used to shave off some of the price each time I manifest a power (none of the Psycrystal/Infinite PP shenanigans, but being able to pew or manifest a few more times a day than normal would be rad). And I also thought that the limited number of powers (even with the Expanded Knowledge Archetype) could be worked around by not needing to take multiple copies of damaging spells, unlike potentially grabbing multiple low level, mid level, and high level blasting spells if I were a Sorc...

Not much of a question here, so TLDR; alongside an "Archon of 9" to handle most of the melee options, which would be better between Sorcerer and Wilder to bring additional power to a gestalt character based off of an Anime Hero? Are there any other Non-Int options that might be fitting? (Alignment locked to Good, because I'm doing a "Rivals to Lovers" thing with my friend, and they're the Evil half of our duo. Also not interested in Warlock, even if it has even less stats required to it, though Eldritch Blast certainly is fun and it can probably get the powers I'm interested in and more.)

[Rebel7284]

First of all, confirm with your DM that legacy champion can indeed be used to increase your initiator level by 1.5 per level. Sounds very sus to me.

Wilder vs. Sorcerer, it depends, Wilder probably has a bit more power in the later levels since it can spam higher level powers more often. Sorcerers, however, have more spell support and with the right choices, will have significantly more options in the long run.

Sorcerers also have the option of Stalwart Sorcerer which while limiting your casting a bit, definitely helps your survivability by adding 2HP/level.

[Gruftzwerg]

Why not warlock?
I would suggest martial class // clawlock

The warlock base gives you many interesting superhero abilities:
- darkvision / see invisibility
- empowered/magical unarmed strikes (claws)
- spiderwalk / fell flight
- (Greater) Invisibility at will
- Nightmares Made Real effectively gives you HIPS
- ranged energy attacks with Eldritch Blast
...

With UMD you can get any other needed gadget via wands.

Combined with Unarmed Strike progression with monk/swordsage you get a fine base for a magically enhanced melee fighter with some magical ranged options.

[Prime32]

What level are you starting at?

2 levels of paladin (or 1 of witch hunterOA) is nice for picking up "I believe in myself". You could go into Paladin/Binder/Knight of the Sacred Seal to pick up an array of powersets you ca switch between.



You could also try playing a dragon with a humanoid form, then taking the Half-Dragon Form feat from Dragons of Eberron so that you have a powered-up battle mode (I suggest Avariel as the base, so that you have wings). Presumably either your nature as a dragon was hidden from you, or you were born a normal human but recently got imbued with "dragon energy". As a dragon you count as having the dragonblooded subtype, letting you pick up nice spells like wings of cover (an AoE barrier which protects your allies).

The Steel DragonDoF is a good option for this - it has Alternate Form without a feat, and gets casting abilities right from the start.

Wyrmling: Small (4 RHD, ECL 6) with Con +2/Cha +2, fly 150ft (avg), 1st level racial sorcerer casting and Spell Resistance 16.
Very Young: Small (7 RHD, ECL 10) with +2 to all but Dex, fly 150ft (avg), and gets 3rd level sorcerer casting; SR 18, increasing to 28 against spells of 2nd level or lower.
Young: Medium (10 RHD, ECL 14) with Str +4/Con +4/Int +4/Wis +2/Cha +4, fly 200ft (poor), and gets 5th level sorcerer casting; SR 20, increasing to 30 against spells of 4th level or lower.

Optionally the Loredrake sovereign archetype (also from Dragons of Eberron) can get you an extra +2 levels of racial sorcerer casting, in exchange for giving up your access to cleric and domain lists.

So let's say LG Loredrake wyrmling Steel Dragon.
Build as Dragon 4/LA +2/Sorcerer 3/Cleric 1/Silver Pyromancer5N 5/Sorcerer +5 and ask your DM if you can apply your Silver Pyromancer class features to Desert Wind maneuvers.

[Kuro Dmon]

Honestly, I should sit down and map out my maneuver progression. I didn't want to just *steal* the Archon of Nine wholesale, but I should see what abilities I definitively *will* have access to, so I can know what I'd want to cover with the more mystic half. Swordsage base means largely mobility while still satisfying melee, but it's worth being sure of what niches I can cover and want to cover...

I also wonder, with my initial ideas being the Sorcerer or Wilder as a base for my other side, whether or not any of the other cha full-casters are as limited as I remember them being. I initially wrote them off because I figured, for example, if I picked a Warmage for Power, I'd need to work harder to figure out abilities outside that speciality...

I lastly also wonder if Cha focus is the only focus I need to have. I thought there were some pure Wisdom based classes (largely) psionic that also keep up in terms of power access and power level, but I've not been able to play a good psionic character in AGES, so my proficiency with them is incredibly rusty... Definitely not the Psion (or Wizard) itself, though. My character's dumb as a sack of bricks, as is the style.


First of all, confirm with your DM that legacy champion can indeed be used to increase your initiator level by 1.5 per level. Sounds very sus to me.

I'd say it's mostly not RAI, but I feel like Legacy Champion only gets used half the time for what it's intended for, haha. Either way, I ran that, and one of my other prospective ideas, by my GM, who is thankfully as much of an anime-geek as me and my partner are, and approved both. Certainly strong options, but not gamebreaking, and I am wanting to keep step alongside a Tier 2//Tier 1 Caster... my partner doesn't optimize as much as I do, but a bigger starting point than me.


Wilder vs. Sorcerer, it depends, Wilder probably has a bit more power in the later levels since it can spam higher level powers more often. Sorcerers, however, have more spell support and with the right choices, will have significantly more options in the long run.

My biggest fear with the Sorc side is that, with Master of Nine eating a handful of feats and Sorcerer not having much to give, I'd be limited to the base chasis and what few PRCs I can get into. I think the Ao9 had like 2-3 spare feat slots even as a Human (I think I get 2 flaws, and from a reading of gaining the Monk's Unarmed Strike progression I get Improved Unarmed Strike as a free feat, so maybe not *as* tight), so I worry can't sink as many resources into metamagic for being able to push my offensive spells when need be, so I might have to measure the balance between more blasts and utility if I went Sorc...


Sorcerers also have the option of Stalwart Sorcerer which while limiting your casting a bit, definitely helps your survivability by adding 2HP/level.

I had this confused with the Battle Sorcerer variant that shaves off slots, and was going to disregard it. Honestly, good catch. I was leaning a lot heavier towards the Wilder because I was contemplating finally using the Azure-Infusion combo, but I can appreciate bringing additional free(ish) bulk ontop of the wider utility... might be pretty close between the two...


Why not warlock?
I would suggest martial class // clawlock

The warlock base gives you many interesting superhero abilities:
- darkvision / see invisibility
- empowered/magical unarmed strikes (claws)
- spiderwalk / fell flight
- (Greater) Invisibility at will
- Nightmares Made Real effectively gives you HIPS
- ranged energy attacks with Eldritch Blast
...

Combined with Unarmed Strike progression with monk/swordsage you get a fine base for a magically enhanced melee fighter with some magical ranged options.

I do appreciate the food for thought. Definitely reminds me of things I'd like to make sure I can do. But I've got 3ish reasons why I'm not interested in Warlock on my other half.

1: ranged damage is a big priority for that side, and the main way to bump it for a Warlock is Hellfire Warlock Legacy Champion, with some way to remove the ability damage. I'd be interested in that, but I'm already using Legacy Champion for Swordsage, and even if I'm allowed to take a prc on each side (with permission so long as each side's features are qualified for in a vacuum), I don't think I can ask to take the same PRC on both sides at the same time.

2: With range being the biggest thing I'm interested in, I remember Warlock needing to sink some of their invocations into getting different shapes and essences to enhance it, which is a bit of a turn off when trying to choose between that or getting more utility. And without doing so, the blast is a bit underwhelming. Consistent, but not what I'm looking for.

3: Clawlock is nice, but I'm already planning for my melee to be a combination of swordsmanship and regular unarmed strikes. pushing up into Beast Strike and Improved Natural Attack would be wasted resources not going towards what I'd like to do.

So, none of them would be a deal-breaker on their own, but all of them together makes me not too interested in Warlocks for this character.

I also have a slight alignment bias, since even with "feel free to explain around an alignment restriction", I could probably write up a Neutral Good Warlock with his pact being with the spirits that previously used his Legacy Weapon... but I'd rather roll with what I've already got cooking, rather than trying to ignore the inherently Chaotic/Evil fluff the class was tarred with.


With UMD you can get any other needed gadget via wands.

Heh. With my character being as dumb as a stump, I might not be able to invest in UMD. And I don't necessarily want to; I'm honestly surprised it wasn't an Int based skill in the first place, frankly...



What level are you starting at?

2 levels of paladin (or 1 of witch hunterOA) is nice for picking up "I believe in myself". You could go into Paladin/Binder/Knight of the Sacred Seal to pick up an array of powersets you ca switch between.

Hm. On the one hand, Track. On the other, Kami's grace, and being trained by the spirits of previous heroes to combat evil is Perfect. Definitely a point in favor for Sorcerer, even if that lost spell-level hurts...

Also, starting at Level 10.

The Dragon idea is interesting, but I'm playing a Human. Completely worthless on his own, with no extraordinary existence on his own. Just a dirt-veined farmer who found a magic sword, and got good enough to use it and then learn from it. So the only shifting I might do is if I consider the Azurin Human instead. Possibly eyeing Totemist(or Incarnate)2/Wilder8/Soul Manifester 10, depending on how that all works. But tweaking out Sorcerer with what features I can put on it is still a very competitive option...

[Prime32]

Consider an urban druidDrComp for another Cha-based caster.
Potentially combined with the huntsmanUA druid ACF (lose wild shape + armor/shield proficiencies; gain monk's AC bonus + fast movement, ranger's favored enemies, Track and swift tracker).

KarsitesToM could be another option for race, with underdog appeal - LA +2 humans who get +2 Con/Cha, can't cast spells (though they can use psionics and SLAs), and are good at countering magic.

[Rebel7284]

Looking at the linked built, I think that if flaws and taking multiple prestige classes at the same time are not allowed, you should consider something like:

Cloistered Cleric 1/Stalwart Sorcerer 19

Domains:
- Darkness (Grants Blind-Fight)
- Time (Grants Improved Initiative)
- Knowledge Devotion (Free trade in)

Human Paragon is also on the table, but giving up 2 HP and a caster level for 3 feats with Cleric seems much better than giving up 6 HP and a caster level for 1 feat with Human Paragon.

Regardless, Sorcerers don't really need feats to function well. I would take a look at the following
- Arcane Strike (recommended)
- (maybe)Versatile Spellcaster
- Mark of the Dauntless (Lots of VERY specific Eberron flavor, but nifty if you use Celerity)

nothing is required like Natural Spell for Druids.

[Gruftzwerg]

I do appreciate the food for thought. Definitely reminds me of things I'd like to make sure I can do. But I've got 3ish reasons why I'm not interested in Warlock on my other half.

1: ranged damage is a big priority for that side, and the main way to bump it for a Warlock is Hellfire Warlock Legacy Champion, with some way to remove the ability damage. I'd be interested in that, but I'm already using Legacy Champion for Swordsage, and even if I'm allowed to take a prc on each side (with permission so long as each side's features are qualified for in a vacuum), I don't think I can ask to take the same PRC on both sides at the same time.

2: With range being the biggest thing I'm interested in, I remember Warlock needing to sink some of their invocations into getting different shapes and essences to enhance it, which is a bit of a turn off when trying to choose between that or getting more utility. And without doing so, the blast is a bit underwhelming. Consistent, but not what I'm looking for.

3: Clawlock is nice, but I'm already planning for my melee to be a combination of swordsmanship and regular unarmed strikes. pushing up into Beast Strike and Improved Natural Attack would be wasted resources not going towards what I'd like to do.

So, none of them would be a deal-breaker on their own, but all of them together makes me not too interested in Warlocks for this character.

I also have a slight alignment bias, since even with "feel free to explain around an alignment restriction", I could probably write up a Neutral Good Warlock with his pact being with the spirits that previously used his Legacy Weapon... but I'd rather roll with what I've already got cooking, rather than trying to ignore the inherently Chaotic/Evil fluff the class was tarred with.



Heh. With my character being as dumb as a stump, I might not be able to invest in UMD. And I don't necessarily want to; I'm honestly surprised it wasn't an Int based skill in the first place, frankly...


I see your concerns and mostly they can't be addressed. But let me still add some info (for maybe later builds).

1. Imho Legacy Champion and Hellfire Warlock doesn't work by RAW for multiple reasons, but I'm not gonna dive into that (would derail the thread to much). But if you are looking for good blaster warlock PRC options go Escalation Mage. It provides many metamagic like abilities including Quickening. This allows you to swiftly cast your EB a few times per day and is imho the biggest dmg boost you can get besides from Hellfire.

2. Yeah, sadly blast shapes and essences all count towards your maximum amount of invocations available. But on the other hand you don't need that many. Eldritch Chain and/or Eldritch Cone is imho enough for most builds (especially if you alter between melee and ranged combat).