Is Master of Many Forms really not that good?

[GuestEleven]

I've never built a druid before, let alone a MMF, so I've been reading different threads trying to learn more about the class. A lot of people seem to think that MMF isn't that great which really confuses me. I know you lose spellcasting and the feat tax for entry into the PRC makes me want to gag, but the tradeoff seems huge. Ex abilities, access to other form sizes a good few levels earlier, access to form types that require quite a few feats or just not be available otherwise.

I know casting is really strong, but with Assume Supernatural Ability you can get the new form's spellcasting if it has any. Is there something I'm missing or not understanding?

[Rebel7284]

I know you lose spellcasting

This is quite a thing. Spells are the most powerful effects in the game and Druids get some very nifty ones. At the highest levels, Shapechange pretty much replaces MoMF completely, but even before then you have excellent battlefield control, summoning, utility, etc.


with Assume Supernatural Ability you can get the new form's spellcasting if it has any.

You definitely do not. While I believe there are a couple of monsters in MM4 that label spellcasting as supernatural, those are the exception and not the rule. Everywhere else, spellcasting is untyped, whatever that means rules-wise.

Not to mention that a Druid can get a TON of utility out of Wildshape already, Enhance Wild Shape gives you EX abilities and Aberration Wildshape and/or Dragon Wildshape are only a few feats away.

So you end up giving up the most powerful ability in D&D (spells) to get slightly better at something you already do quite well (wildshape). You also pay two feats for that privilege (feats that you could use to pick up Aberration Wildshape for example.) you also give up your Animal Companion progression, which is less important than spells, but isn't nothing.

Edit: I agree with the posts after this that MoMF is a good class, but yeah, Druid is just such a beast (pun intended) out of the box, that even a good class like MoMF is a downgrade.

[Doctor Despair]

MoMF is more for Wildshape Rangers than Druids imo. It's a massive upgrade for them, as ranger 6-15 is much worse than what you get out of MoMF 1-10.

[Inevitability]

Master of Many Forms is extremely good, it's just that regular wild shape + casting + animal companion is better.

If you enter it as a druid, it's a bit of a downgrade, and if you're willing to use tier 1s you could've just been a Polymorph-abusing neraphim/dragonwrought wizard to begin with. If you enter it as anything else, it's going to kick you up at least one tier.

[tyckspoon]

It's really good. The problem is you are assuming Druid as the default entry, and Druid - and especially the things you could be taking on Druid instead of Master of Many Forms - are even better. You could be a Planar Shepherd and get Wildshape+ that way while still advancing spellcasting. You could just cast Polymorph and get nearly everything you would have from Wildshape that way. On the very high end, Shapechange just completely blows the PRC away. You could extend your Wildshape flexibility with feats or spells and, again, still get to advance your animal companion and spellcasting with your levels. They all result in more powerful builds than Druid -> MoMF.

On the other hand if you have some way to access Wildshape that isn't Being A Druid, it's excellent. Like Wildshape variant Ranger into Master of Many Forms? Great. Absolutely an upgrade and a very effective shapeshifting-focused character.

[GuestEleven]

You definitely do not. While I believe there are a couple of monsters in MM4 that label spellcasting as supernatural, those are the exception and not the rule. Everywhere else, spellcasting is untyped, whatever that means rules-wise.

That is news to me and very important, thanks for that clarification.

Still, I want to say gaining access to cryohydra at level 11 compared to level 15 is rather significant, especially considering you never know just how far a campaign is ever gonna go. I feel Shapechange kinda falls in the same camp, pretty awesome assuming I make it to 17th level.

It is a lot to consider, I have quite a bit more researching to do I suppose.

[eggynack]

While going from druid to MoMF is indeed a huge downgrade, cause casting, and wild shape ranger to MoMF is a huge upgrade, cause way less casting, I would actually say that druid entry is better. Third level spells, even if you're not taking natural spell for in-combat casting, are just quite strong. You can take primal hunter and instinct for a big initiative bonus and uncanny dodge, heart of air and water for air speed, water breathing, activatable freedom of movement, and light fortification, wild sense for a spot and listen boost, luminous armor for powerful armor, venomfire for big damage on some forms, and a bunch of other cheap spells of third level or lower that you can buy a lesser rod of extend spell for. And there actually is benefit to spells that aren't long term buffs as well. Whispering sand for long distance communication, or healing spells for, y'know, healing, or linked perception for wacky ultra-sensory nonsense. I think that stuff is sufficient to outdo the variety of ranger benefits.

As for why it's a downgrade? As everyone says, losing casting is a hell of a lot, and aberration and dragon wild shape are really strong if you're desperate for strong forms. One thing that has been relatively unremarked upon, however, is the way that wild shape specifically benefits from casting. A lot of really strong wild shape forms are as strong as they are because they make your casting better. You don't turn into a desmodu hunting bat because you want to bite your opponent. You do it so you can be hard to hit and good at spotting enemies while you toss spells around. This goes even more for, say, dire tortoise or nilshai, where your command of the action economy has way more oomph if you can back it up with magic, or will-o'-wisp and meteor dragon, which are like more extreme bats. Sure, cryohydra is an option, as are a variety of other forms that make you better at punching enemies in the face, but casting is such a versatile and powerful way of dealing with enemies and wild shape is such a versatile and powerful way of making it so that enemies can't deal with you. Frozen wild shape is, I would say, the worst of the form adding feats, so being better at it as an MoMF isn't that advantageous.

As a sidenote, hobgoblin warsoul and kuo-toa exalted whip actually have their casting as extraordinary special qualities, so you can pick those up right through MoMF at level 12, or, if you really want to speedrun getting those forms specifically, you can wait for seventh level before entering to do it with enhance wild shape. Also MMV, rather than MMIV.

[Rebel7284]

As a sidenote, hobgoblin warsoul and kuo-toa exalted whip actually have their casting as extraordinary special qualities, so you can pick those up right through MoMF at level 12, or, if you really want to speedrun getting those forms specifically, you can wait for seventh level before entering to do it with enhance wild shape. Also MMV, rather than MMIV.

Ah, thanks for the correction!



It is a lot to consider, I have quite a bit more researching to do I suppose.

Best guide to researching druids is definitely in eggynack's signature. Her handbook is pretty awesome. :smallsmile:

[Zombulian]

That is news to me and very important, thanks for that clarification.

Still, I want to say gaining access to cryohydra at level 11 compared to level 15 is rather significant, especially considering you never know just how far a campaign is ever gonna go. I feel Shapechange kinda falls in the same camp, pretty awesome assuming I make it to 17th level.

It is a lot to consider, I have quite a bit more researching to do I suppose.

Listen, if you want to play a MoMF, do it. It’s a fun and powerful prestige class. Druid is just an insane enough class that it can outshine it in raw power. I’m sure you will have fun either way.

[icefractal]

It's in general not as strong as straight Druid, but if that was the standard then the vast majority of classes fail it.

Having played one, MoMF is at least "decently strong and highly versatile", and can go up to "borderline OP" depending on what forms you have access to. Be advised that it's somewhat paperwork heavy (although less than a normal Druid).

Combines well with Warshaper, and Multimorph is awesome for versatility, but in non-gestalt you'll need to be pretty high level for that.

[Prime32]

MoMF is more for Wildshape Rangers than Druids imo. It's a massive upgrade for them, as ranger 6-15 is much worse than what you get out of MoMF 1-10.
And you can also get wild shape from the LA +1 Divine Minion template (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101073640/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a), meaning you can meet the MoMF entry requirements as early as ECL 2.

[H_H_F_F]

To echo what others had said, obviously it's a downgrade from straight druid. However, I do feel the need to highlight that for many (most?) games, that's a good thing.

If you play in a party with a warblade, a bard, and a psychic warrior, MoMF would make a great choice (power level wise, not commenting on party composition).

It's got a similar optimization floor-ceiling, can be easily adjusted to the party, and makes for a fun and versatile play experience.

It does require a lot of book keeping, but it can be very much worth the effort. As others have said, UA ranger makes for a great entry.

"Not that good" is a statement that assumes an optimization level rare at most tables, and also just less fun in my personal opinion. MoMF is weaker than druid - and often, that makes it better.

[SimonMoon6]

And you can also get wild shape from the LA +1 Divine Minion template (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101073640/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a), meaning you can meet the MoMF entry requirements as early as ECL 2.

However, be aware that some people will nitpick here and not let this work. Some people will say that MoMF requires "wild shape class ability" but Divine Minion doesn't give a class ability, even though it gives you wildshape.

I think that's a silly distinction myself, but I also think that some of the abilities you get from MoMF might just be a bit too powerful for a 3rd level character.

[icefractal]

And you can also get wild shape from the LA +1 Divine Minion template (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101073640/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a), meaning you can meet the MoMF entry requirements as early as ECL 2.Lol, yes - I played this version (in a rather high-op game), and it's extremely good, to the point it may be OP in most campaigns, and really nails the "dynamic shapeshifter" feel.

There's some RAW dispute over whether this qualifies (does "as an 11th-level Druid" count as "Wild Shape class feature"?), but even if you had to go the slow route (take Druid or Wildshape ranger to qualify, but then use the free-action Divine Minion Wildshape in practice) it's still very strong.

Edit: Swordsage'd, must have been that Dire Tortoise initiative.

[Crake]

And you can also get wild shape from the LA +1 Divine Minion template (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101073640/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a), meaning you can meet the MoMF entry requirements as early as ECL 2.

Yeah, except thats almost never gonna happen at an actual table. Divine minion is almost entirely made for npcs, and exclusive to egyptian gods in the forgotten realms setting, so a VERY specific area and setting requirement.


Lol, yes - I played this version (in a rather high-op game), and it's extremely good, to the point it may be OP in most campaigns, and really nails the "dynamic shapeshifter" feel.

There's some RAW dispute over whether this qualifies (does "as an 11th-level Druid" count as "Wild Shape class feature"?), but even if you had to go the slow route (take Druid or Wildshape ranger to qualify, but then use the free-action Divine Minion Wildshape in practice) it's still very strong.

Edit: Swordsage'd, must have been that Dire Tortoise initiative.

Guess your table ignored the “usually a character with 6 class levels in fighter, barbarian, paladin or rogue” part of the template?

[Inevitability]

Another way to get Wild Shape that's not quite the class ability would be Initiate of Horus-Re, which gets paladins of all things into MoMF.

Also clerics, which I guess might be more appealing than a druid entry? You'd be down a lot of feats though.

[glass]

Guess your table ignored the “usually a character with 6 class levels in fighter, barbarian, paladin or rogue” part of the template?"Usually" being such a character means sometimes not being.


Another way to get Wild Shape that's not quite the class ability would be Initiate of Horus-Re, which gets paladins of all things into MoMF.That sounds like fun, actually. And I am pretty sure I could sell my GMs on it. Unfortunately my current Paladin character is not a follower of Horus-Re (and who they are a follower of is quite important to their identity). Maybe next time...

Where's Initiate of Horus-Re from, out of interest?

[H_H_F_F]

"
Where's Initiate of Horus-Re from, out of interest?

It's a Forgotten Realms feat, from Champions of Valor.

[Crake]

"Usually" being such a character means sometimes not being.

Yeah, correct, but it's clearly setting a precedent: you need to be of value to your god, and have proven yourself worthy. Probably not something a level 1 character has achieved.

I suspect most people who suggest the divine minion template completely forget that it's just that: a divine minion

[Troacctid]

MoMF asks for a class ability, not a racial ability, so it makes more sense to do your cheesy entry via Totem Druid.


To echo what others had said, obviously it's a downgrade from straight druid. However, I do feel the need to highlight that for many (most?) games, that's a good thing.

If you play in a party with a warblade, a bard, and a psychic warrior, MoMF would make a great choice (power level wise, not commenting on party composition).

It's got a similar optimization floor-ceiling, can be easily adjusted to the party, and makes for a fun and versatile play experience.

It does require a lot of book keeping, but it can be very much worth the effort. As others have said, UA ranger makes for a great entry.

"Not that good" is a statement that assumes an optimization level rare at most tables, and also just less fun in my personal opinion. MoMF is weaker than druid - and often, that makes it better.
I disagree with this. Here's the thing—druid is powerful, but it's powerful in ways that, generally, are fun and exciting to play with. MoMF is slightly less powerful in some ways, but still incredibly powerful and even more unbalanced in some ways. (Ooze wild shape is literally broken in half.) And the ways that MoMF is powerful just...aren't as much fun. It's more bookkeeping, more book-diving, and when you find a good form, there's a general feeling of "Whoops, this probably wasn't something a PC was meant to have access to," which you never get with regular spellcasting.

In other words, MoMF "weakens" the druid very little if at all, and does so in a way that emphasizes the least fun aspects of the class.

If you want a nerfed druid for your campaign, I think you're a lot better off with the PHB2 Shapeshift variant, which is a lot simpler and easier to play, does a much better job of moderating the power level, and is generally a much better design, and more fun, IMO.

[Crake]

If you want a nerfed druid for your campaign, I think you're a lot better off with the PHB2 Shapeshift variant, which is a lot simpler and easier to play, does a much better job of moderating the power level, and is generally a much better design, and more fun, IMO.

Agreed, I always try to get my druid players to play shapeshifter variant, as it gets rid of a lot of annoying bookkeeping for wildshape forms, gets rid of the animal companion, which can also be annoying, and makes shapeshifting a swift action, which makes it far more accessible in combat, rather than being like "oh yeah, i spend my turn wildshaping, and that's it", they can shift and get right into the thick of things in the same round. Also, being able to shift in and out is much nicer thematically, than being locked into the form for literal hours or else wasting it.

[Gruftzwerg]

It depends on what you mean with "not that good".

Sure, due to the lost spellcasting it ain't a Tier 1 build anymore. It won't solve all problems but it still can trivialize many plot plans of the DM.

Then the question is how Wild Shaping is handled at your table and much you wanna abuse (!) the rules here (and your DM lets you get away).

By the latest WS rules (Rules Compendium) you need to either have seen the target form or need to have knowledge about it. The former is dictated by what your DM agrees from your Background Story and what you see in actual play. The latter is determined by your knowledge skills dependent on the type of the creature. If your DM agrees upon "knowledge checks", you can easily get into any form where the sources (books) are allowed and you have enough lvl for. The knowledge check DC is easily manageable if you have max ranks and TAKE-10 on the roll (outside of combat).

The rest is up to you and how much you wanna search for strong abusable forms. There are many strong options mentioned in the handbooks. Even some broken forms where you can get basically infinite CON. The question again is how much you really wanna use such stuff and with how much your DM lets you get away.

MoMF can easily feal broken & unbalanced for the rest of the party. On the other hand, if you have enough system mastery and know what you are doing, you can easily adjust its power level to most parties by picking forms that are on equal strength as the rest of your party.

It will never be as broken as an optimized T1 full caster build, but can still become a problem for the DM as said. Imho MoMF is one of those PRC that can easily break the party balance if the player and the DM (and the rest of the party) are not on the same page.
Thus my suggestion is: Be careful before attempting to play one. Check party balance and talk with the DM about the rules involved.

[Chronos]

Quoth Crake:

Guess your table ignored the “usually a character with 6 class levels in fighter, barbarian, paladin or rogue” part of the template?
Even if you go with that, it still opens up a lot more possibilities, rather than just the usual druid or ranger. And you can probably get away with bending the letter of that rule while retaining the spirit by instead taking, say, six levels of warblade, or swordsage, or duskblade, which opens up yet more possibilities. Six levels plus LA 1 is a bit later than the five levels needed for a druid or ranger build, but it's still within a reasonable range of levels for most tables.

[Crake]

Even if you go with that, it still opens up a lot more possibilities, rather than just the usual druid or ranger. And you can probably get away with bending the letter of that rule while retaining the spirit by instead taking, say, six levels of warblade, or swordsage, or duskblade, which opens up yet more possibilities. Six levels plus LA 1 is a bit later than the five levels needed for a druid or ranger build, but it's still within a reasonable range of levels for most tables.

I wasn’t meaning to imply that it was strictly limited to rogues, barbarians, paladins, or fighters, I have no issue with any class getting in, or even any real issue with the template, if you can make it fit. My issue is more that level 1 entry is completely ignoring the spirit of the template, which is to say, it is a blessing of faerunian egyptian gods, upon their devout and worthy followers who they will send to do their bidding. Now, thats not an impossible story to shoehorn into a campaign from a high level start, but from level 1? Thats some mary sue level storytelling right there.