Hilarious things you've found in RAW2: Meme Heaven

[Promethean]

Just a thread to post any janky rules you find funny.
Places where the writer failed their language check, rules that don't function as intended, or times WotC failed to consider how rules would interact.

To start off: The little-known evolution of the Erinyes, The Brachina/Pleasure Devils, can't use their signature ability [Beguile].

Simply put, the way the writer worded it, they only get to Use their beguile ability on a creature After that creature fail an unrelated DC 25 will save.
This is potentially busted, as this leaves the ability with No Save as long as the Brachina can make the target fail a specific DC of will save, but None of their Spell Like or supernatural abilities have a DC of 25.
This mean all Brachina have go out of their way to carefully invest in magic items, classes and feats to Exactly DC 25 on another spell/SP/SU ability before they can use their race's signature ability.

[arkieNork]

A charisma +2 item will put their Morality Undone DC at 25. Really not a lot of effort or trouble for a CR 11 Devil with personal Plane Shift to put a no-save ability online.

[Promethean]

A charisma +2 item will put their Morality Undone DC at 25. Really not a lot of effort or trouble for a CR 11 Devil with personal Plane Shift to put a no-save ability online.

Still funny that you can nerf them by hitting them with a no-save buff spell.

[Wildstag]

PF1E, but the PF1E Hunter archetype "Treestrider" has this ability...


Animal Companion: As a free action, a treestrider must select an ape as her animal companion.

This alters animal companion.

It's just goofy to me that it's a free action rather than a non-action.

[Inevitability]

PF1E, but the PF1E Hunter archetype "Treestrider" has this ability...



It's just goofy to me that it's a free action rather than a non-action.

That means you can ready it, not? Caster trying to 5 ft. step away and cast a spell? Enemy charging you from close by? Enemy escapes the rogue's flank? Mess up their day with a RANDOM CHIMP EVENT!

[Beni-Kujaku]

PF1E, but the PF1E Hunter archetype "Treestrider" has this ability...



It's just goofy to me that it's a free action rather than a non-action.

No‚ no‚ the problem isn't that it's a free action. The problem is that it's a "must". The ranger is now forced to choose an ape companion an infinite amount of times per round. Once they choose this archetype‚ they cannot talk again‚ instead choosing their companion indefinitely.

[loky1109]

I have one...
Link (https://web.archive.org/web/20081219000440/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080407a).

Benefits: The DC of each supernatural ability granted by your favored vestige increases by 1. This replaces the ability granted by the Favored Vestige Focus feat.
Do you guess what ability is granted by the Favored Vestige Focus feat?


Benefits: The DC of each supernatural ability granted by your favored vestige increases by 1.

Sounds as a good deal!

[Gadora]

Dragon #353 offers the Cursed Blow ACF for spellthieves, which really could have used an editing pass.


Benefit: Whenever you successfully deal sneak attack damage to a foe, you may also expend a spell slot (of up to 4th level), as a free action, to curse the target.

The curse places a penalty on the target's attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks equal to the level of the spell slot expended, and lasts a number of rounds equal to your spellthief level. Penalties from this ability do not stack; only the largest penalty applies. The curse bypasses spell resistance, but the target is allowed a Will save (DC 10 + your Charisma modifier + your caster level); with a successful save reducing the curse's penalty to -1 per level of the spell slot.

Your target gets a save to reduce the penalty to the penalty. And then the example goes on to contradict the ability's text on duration.

[loky1109]

Dragon #353 offers the Cursed Blow ACF for spellthieves, which really could have used an editing pass.



Your target gets a save to reduce the penalty to the penalty. And then the example goes on to contradict the ability's text on duration.

Mettle could work.

[Promethean]

Something I just found today: It's possible to escape 3.5 ravenloft with a craftable magic item.

The text of "The Scroll of Return"(Dungeon master's guide to ravenloft) clearly seems to indicate it was supposed to be an artifact, but the editor was apparently asleep as it has crafting requirements below the text. Crafting a get-out-of-hell-free card just requires knowing wish, plane-shift, and craft wondrous item at the market cost of 175,000 gold(meaning it's 87,500 to craft, well within WBL for 17+).

[animewatcha]

Can't you just wish your way out of 3.5 ravenloft anyway?

[tyckspoon]

Can't you just wish your way out of 3.5 ravenloft anyway?

Yes, one of the explicitly defined powers of 3.5 Wish is to take you from and to any place you desire "regardless of local conditions" which is an extremely broad phrasing. And if you're powerful enough to try just Wish yourself somewhere else, the Dark Powers probably just let you go - unless you're a Darklord candidate and they're trying to specifically craft your own personal hell to live in, a caster with 9th level spells is more dangerous to Ravenloft than Ravenloft is to them and the Powers would prefer those individuals go break things somewhere else rather than focus on fighting the demiplane.

[Tzardok]

Yes, one of the explicitly defined powers of 3.5 Wish is to take you from and to any place you desire "regardless of local conditions" which is an extremely broad phrasing. And if you're powerful enough to try just Wish yourself somewhere else, the Dark Powers probably just let you go - unless you're a Darklord candidate and they're trying to specifically craft your own personal hell to live in, a caster with 9th level spells is more dangerous to Ravenloft than Ravenloft is to them and the Powers would prefer those individuals go break things somewhere else rather than focus on fighting the demiplane.

Yeah, no. Magic in Ravenloft works differently than outside, and wish is explicitely called out as a spells with a modified effect:


This spell functions only if the Dark Powers allow it to. The Dark Powers usually grant the wish, but they always try to pervert its intent. Thus, this spell rarely performs as desired when cast in Ravenloft. When evil characters wish for something dark and twisted, they have a 50% chance of receiving their wish exactly as requested, indicating that the Dark Powers deemed the wish’s intent to be already corrupted.
A wish intended to allow you to escape from Ravenloft, destroy a darklord, or otherwise violate one of the basic tenets of the land simply fails. Any wish used for evil requires a powers check.

You don't escape that easily from the Demiplane of Dread.

[Promethean]

You don't escape that easily from the Demiplane of Dread.

Unless you use Craft Wonderous item to make a... scroll...

Vecna needs to be punished for all the system errors he cause when he force-updated the metaphysics from 2e to 3e.

[animewatcha]

Yeah, no. Magic in Ravenloft works differently than outside, and wish is explicitely called out as a spells with a modified effect:



You don't escape that easily from the Demiplane of Dread.

Aka several wishes made by a <insert absurd intelligence wizard> to accomodate the rules set forth and yet allow him to escape somehow.

[Chronos]

Except it's not "rules set forth"; it's just "the evil powers do whatever the Hell they feel like".

[daremetoidareyo]

Monsters are proficient with weapons on their stat block. Medusa are proficient with snakes.

[Inevitability]

If you somehow get your wisdom to 4 and take Willing Deformity (Madness), you immediately and permanently fall into a stupor... until you change your alignment away from Evil, which will negate any [Vile] feats you happen to possess.


Now I'm imagining an evil twin of the Redeemery making use of that.

[Doctor Despair]

If you somehow get your wisdom to 4

Starting with 8, you'd only need a -4. Lots of races have a -2 and, off the top of my head, Mineral Warrior has a -2 to wis.

[Inevitability]

Dwarves live longer than elves.

Your average elf commoner has 11 constitution at best (13 assigned, -2 for race). The moment that elf hits venerable, they'll have a cumulative -6 constitution penalty, which comes out to 5. But that's a -3 constitution modifier, so that elf now has 1d4-3 = -1 HP (adding more levels does not improve the math, and at level 20 death is actually instant). So functionally, even the hardiest elf lapses into an unending coma upon reaching 350 years of age.

(an elf wizard is in a similar boat, but uses the elite array and could thus theoretically have 15 or 14 base constitution - every other score still means death)

Dwarves, meanwhile, hit venerable at age 250 and live 2d100 years afterwards, or 101 years on average. So a max-constitution dwarf commoner who dies of old age will on average be 351, while an elf commoner cannot live past 350!


But it's actually worse than that, because not everyone has max constitution.

An elf with 12 or 11 base constitution will have a -2 to constitution constitution by the time old age rolls around (age 263), at which point their maximum HP are 0 and they cannot perform standard actions without dropping unconscious (though being level 2 is enough to save one from this particular fate, so I won't quite assume a -2 constitution modifier means death). An elf with 10 or 9 base constitution straight-up dies once they hit old age. An elf with 8 base constitution is disabled from birth and dies at age 175.

Meanwhile, two in six dwarves die upon hitting 250, while the other four live to be on average 351.

For a final life expectancy of:
Elf: 175/6 + 2 * 263/6 + 3 * 350 / 6 = 291 years
Dwarf: 2 * 250/6 + 4 * 351/6 = 317 years


I guess that's why so many NPCs take Toughness?

[loky1109]

1d4-5 hp (elf commoner with 1 Con) is 1 hp.

[Inevitability]

Hedgehogs are venomous in D&D.

The only source for hedgehog stats is the DMG, page 203, which inexplicably tells us their spines are covered in poison.

[loky1109]

Hedgehogs are venomous in D&D.

The only source for hedgehog stats is the DMG, page 203, which inexplicably tells us their spines are covered in poison.
I surprisingly found this is real myth.
There are a lot of hedgehog's saliva on spines and it's antiseptic and antitick agent.

[Spore]

[snip] while an elf commoner cannot live past 350!

You try surviving a feudel society with unsteady access to healthcare (read: a benevolent temple) for more than 300 years. This tracks. The rules give a maximum age, but not an averagefor certain populations. Sort of how humanity's potential age is 120, yet a 60-70 year old farmer in medieval times had a good run. (the average is severely tanked by child mortality). So this sort of tracks.

If anything, diseases are WILD in the game. Daily checks? attribute damage? One lord could feasibly quarantine entire dukedoms because monstrous diseases are so damn dangerous.

[Promethean]

If anything, diseases are WILD in the game. Daily checks? attribute damage? One lord could feasibly quarantine entire dukedoms because monstrous diseases are so damn dangerous.

This also juxtaoses how weak most poisons are. Very few are directly fatal or cause permanent damage. Most poisons only last for 1 minute or 1 hour, only require 2 saves at most, have a fortitude save in the 10-18 range, most often attack strength or dex, often do around 1d6 damage per failed save, and do naturally healable ability damage.

This means your average commoner without access to temple healing and a base 10-11 ability range is rarely more than inconvenienced by the majority of poisons. Antitoxin is pretty much worthless outside of specific professions, it's too expensive to waste on weak poisons and most injury poisons act too fast for you to use it in time. It's only really useful if you already Know beforehand that you'll be hit with a rare lethal toxin within the hour.

[ShurikVch]

Dwarves live longer than elves.

Your average elf commoner has 11 constitution at best (13 assigned, -2 for race). The moment that elf hits venerable, they'll have a cumulative -6 constitution penalty, which comes out to 5. But that's a -3 constitution modifier, so that elf now has 1d4-3 = -1 HP (adding more levels does not improve the math, and at level 20 death is actually instant)

1d4-5 hp (elf commoner with 1 Con) is 1 hp.
That's correct: just like Animals (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType) (or Aberrations (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#aberrationType)) with Int 1 still got 1/HD skill points (despite the "2 + Int modifier" and -5 penalty) - even creature with Con 1 still got 1 hp/HD. The only specific exceptions there are Quick (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) trait and Frail (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#frail) flaw - but even they (even taken together) are not allowing to reduce hp gain below the 0/HD


Hedgehogs are venomous in D&D.

The only source for hedgehog stats is the DMG, page 203, which inexplicably tells us their spines are covered in poison.
A little fun fact: some species of sea urchin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_urchin) are poisonous, and "sea urchin" in Russian is "морской ёж" (literally translated as "sea hedgehog")


(the average is severely tanked by child mortality)
No, averages isn't affected by it: we know about medieval lifespans from lists of taxpayers; since children payed no taxes - they also weren't included in the lists, and thus - don't affected the averages

[Chronos]

...Yes, of course average lifespan is affected by childhood mortality. Just because one particular source of information we have doesn't account for children doesn't change the actual reality. And for that matter, there are plenty of other sources of information that do include childhood mortality (for instance, church records of baptisms and funerals).


Meanwhile, since someone mentioned racial weapon proficiencies, in Pathfinder, orcs can proficiently wield motorcycles and blowtorches as weapons. The Pathfinder version of weapon familiarity gives proficiency with any weapon that has the race's name in it, and "motORCycle" and "blowtORCh", well... Yes, of course I know that's not what they meant, but the mental image is still just too perfect.

[loky1109]

...Yes, of course average lifespan is affected by childhood mortality.

Not "of course". It depends. Not only depends on data. It depends on research design and its purpose. Many statistics don't take childhood mortality into account, many take.
If you make some statement about "average lifespan" you should give a source. Because these "average" could be very different.

[Wildstag]

Meanwhile, since someone mentioned racial weapon proficiencies, in Pathfinder, orcs can proficiently wield motorcycles and blowtorches as weapons. The Pathfinder version of weapon familiarity gives proficiency with any weapon that has the race's name in it, and "motORCycle" and "blowtORCh", well... Yes, of course I know that's not what they meant, but the mental image is still just too perfect.

Ugh, it's this one. The specific wording is "treat any weapon with the word "orc" in its name as a martial weapon". A half-orc wizard isn't proficient with tORChes, just a half-orc with martial weapon proficiency. Still goofy, but not blanket proficiency.

[ShurikVch]

Half-Golem templates are have no restrictions by the size of base creature
Thus - even Fine-sized Half-Golem would stay Fine-sized, despite the attached limbs from Large-sized Construct

[loky1109]

Ugh, it's this one. The specific wording is "treat any weapon with the word "orc" in its name as a martial weapon". A half-orc wizard isn't proficient with tORChes, just a half-orc with martial weapon proficiency. Still goofy, but not blanket proficiency.

I could be wrong, but "ORC" in tORChes/motORCycle/blowtORCh/etc. isn't word.

[Wildstag]

I could be wrong, but "ORC" in tORChes/motORCycle/blowtORCh/etc. isn't word.

The joke response oft repeated on the Paizo forums is that it's not a search for " orc " or "orc-", but "orc", thus if the word exists with that triplet in that order, it counts as having the word "orc" in the name, in a very "word-search"-esque way.

[loky1109]

The joke response oft repeated on the Paizo forums is that it's not a search for " orc " or "orc-", but "orc", thus if the word exists with that triplet in that order, it counts as having the word "orc" in the name, in a very "word-search"-esque way.

Word isn't just combination of letters. Word is sense. If you apply to word Cesar cipher or any other crypto method it still will be the same word. With different letters.

[Inevitability]

Word isn't just combination of letters. Word is sense. If you apply to word Cesar cipher or any other crypto method it still will be the same word. With different letters.

We can meaningfully talk about "Words that start with a K" or "Words that rhyme with potato", those sentences all pretty clearly use 'word' in the sense of 'a sequence of letters' rather than 'a meaning'.

Besides, an orc double axe also wouldn't have 'orc' in its name if you put it through a caesar cipher.

[InvisibleBison]

We can meaningfully talk about "Words that start with a K" or "Words that rhyme with potato", those sentences all pretty clearly use 'word' in the sense of 'a sequence of letters' rather than 'a meaning'.

Besides, an orc double axe also wouldn't have 'orc' in its name if you put it through a caesar cipher.

If someone said to you that "blowout" rhymed with "potato" because 'blow' rhymed with "potato" and "blowout" contained 'blow', would you agree with them? A word isn't a sequence of letters; it's a unit of language. Any given word consists of a sequence of letters, but that sequence of letters can occur elsewhere without also being that word.

[Promethean]

If someone said to you that "blowout" rhymed with "potato" because 'blow' rhymed with "potato" and "blowout" contained 'blow', would you agree with them? A word isn't a sequence of letters; it's a unit of language. Any given word consists of a sequence of letters, but that sequence of letters can occur elsewhere without also being that word.

That's a Really a bad example. Whether or not certain sounds rhyme has no bearing on whether they have inherent meaning.

For example: random combinations of letters can be pronounced and are also able to rhyme, but that doesn't mean they have meaning or are real words in any sense.

[Jay R]

We all know that this is a joke thread? And that nobody believed that the rule was really intended to include a torch, right?

The first post about it specifically said this:


Yes, of course I know that's not what they meant, but the mental image is still just too perfect.

Thank you, Chronos, for posting a great example of a hilarious thing you've found in RAW -- you know, the exact purpose of this thread.

Anybody else have one to offer?

[Lord Torath]

Meanwhile, since someone mentioned racial weapon proficiencies, in Pathfinder, orcs can proficiently wield motorcycles and blowtorches as weapons. The Pathfinder version of weapon familiarity gives proficiency with any weapon that has the race's name in it, and "motORCycle" and "blowtORCh", well... Yes, of course I know that's not what they meant, but the mental image is still just too perfect.


Ugh, it's this one. The specific wording is "treat any weapon with the word "orc" in its name as a martial weapon". A half-orc wizard isn't proficient with tORChes, just a half-orc with martial weapon proficiency. Still goofy, but not blanket proficiency.On the other hand, would an orc warrior be proficient in wielding a half-orc wizard as an improvised weapon? You know, assuming the warrior meets the strength requirements to lift the wizard? :smallbiggrin:

[loky1109]

On the other hand, would an orc warrior be proficient in wielding a half-orc wizard as an improvised weapon? You know, assuming the warrior meets the strength requirements to lift the wizard? :smallbiggrin:

I have nothing to object!

[Inevitability]

If your table rules that losing the prereqs for a PrC locks you out of that class's features (not unreasonable imo), you can set up an unresolvable game state.

Take levels in whatever martial class you like, enter Warrior of Darkness (BoVD) and take 3 levels to get Cleave as a bonus feat, use that feat to enter War Hulk.

War Hulk's No Time To Think removes all your ranks in intelligence/wisdom/charisma-based skills, so you no longer have the alchemy, knowledge, and spellcraft ranks to enter warrior of darkness, so you lose access to Cleave, so you no longer qualify for War Hulk, so you get your skill ranks back. The cycle repeats infinitely with no stable resolution.

[Tohron]

Meanwhile, since someone mentioned racial weapon proficiencies, in Pathfinder, orcs can proficiently wield motorcycles and blowtorches as weapons. The Pathfinder version of weapon familiarity gives proficiency with any weapon that has the race's name in it, and "motORCycle" and "blowtORCh", well... Yes, of course I know that's not what they meant, but the mental image is still just too perfect.

You know what else has Orc in it? Orcs! Thus, Orcs must also be proficient in wielding other Orcs (and Half-Orcs)!

[InvisibleBison]

We all know that this is a joke thread? And that nobody believed that the rule was really intended to include a torch, right?

This is a thread about funny elements of the rules of D&D (and Pathfinder). If someone brings something into this thread that's not actually part of the rules, how is it not appropriate to point that out?

[Metastachydium]

On the other hand, would an orc warrior be proficient in wielding a half-orc wizard as an improvised weapon? You know, assuming the warrior meets the strength requirements to lift the wizard? :smallbiggrin:

Make it a Half-Orc Sorcerer! Double the fun! Totally rules-legal!

[Chronos]

OK, my bad on the weapon familiarity rules-- I don't play Pathfinder, so I only know about it from reading about it in another thread here years ago. So it's only orcish warrior-types who join the blowtorch motorcycle gangs.

Inevitability, there are a lot easier ways to get a self-disqualifying prestige class. The simplest is probably Ur-Priest: The class requires that you not be able to cast divine spells, and then it gives you divine spellcasting. Or another one that often comes up in optimization contexts: You can qualify for Anima Mage without any binder levels by taking the Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige feats, but those feats both require that you not have the soul binding class feature, so as soon as you take the class, they turn off, and you no longer qualify for Anima Mage.

[Tohron]

Now I'm envisioning two orcs holding a rope together, wielding each other as an improvised flail as an alternate travel method.

[animewatcha]

You know what else has Orc in it? Orcs! Thus, Orcs must also be proficient in wielding other Orcs (and Half-Orcs)!

So an Orc Monk would be proficient in wielding him/herself??

[Inevitability]

Dustblights (Sandstorm) have Sand Dancer as a bonus feat, letting them kick grit into people's faces after moving at least 10 feet with the tumble skill.

The problem? Tumble is trained-only, and the default Dustblight has no ranks.

[bekeleven]

Complete Arcane declares that spells requiring attack rolls function like weapons, so you can take feats like weapon focus for them.

The only problem is that weapon focus requires weapon proficiency, and there's no such thing as being proficient in a spell, so no character can actually qualify for this use of the feat.

And if you say there is such a thing a proficiency in spells... no class or feat grants it, so all spell attack rolls are made at -4.

[RSGA]

Somewhat related, when taken in the same light the Weapon Focus feat lets you take it for grapple and ray but see the above.

[glass]

Make it a Half-Orc Sorcerer! Double the fun! Totally rules-legal!Would they count as a double weapon?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Would they count as a double weapon?

Obviously not, it's only the first half of an orc.

[daremetoidareyo]

Complete Arcane declares that spells requiring attack rolls function like weapons, so you can take feats like weapon focus for them.

The only problem is that weapon focus requires weapon proficiency, and there's no such thing as being proficient in a spell, so no character can actually qualify for this use of the feat.

And if you say there is such a thing a proficiency in spells... no class or feat grants it, so all spell attack rolls are made at -4.

Sohei has weapon focus at first level, despite having 0 bab, so they can take it seeing as how it seems prereqs are ignored

[Khedrac]

Sohei has weapon focus at first level, despite having 0 bab, so they can take it seeing as how it seems prereqs are ignored

Nice one - this also applies to first level clerics with the war domain - they may get Weapon Focus, but they don't get the benefit until they get a point of BAB!

[Metastachydium]

Sohei has weapon focus at first level, despite having 0 bab, so they can take it seeing as how it seems prereqs are ignored

Man, I wish this were the one issue with Sohei!

[Chronos]

Unless otherwise specified (such as in the Fighter description), bonus feats ignore prerequisites.

[Khedrac]

Unless otherwise specified (such as in the Fighter description), bonus feats ignore prerequisites.

I am happy to believe you on this one, though I thought it was the reverse - they needed to specifiy the ability to ignore pre-requisites - but for my own curiosity could you please provide a source on this? I cannot find it.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I am happy to believe you on this one, though I thought it was the reverse - they needed to specifiy the ability to ignore pre-requisites - but for my own curiosity could you please provide a source on this? I cannot find it.

Monster Manual 1, p7 : "Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B ( B ). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat."

This is (as far as I know) the only mention of this rule. It is pretty clearly intended for class bonus feats as well, since, in monster statblocks with class levels, ranger bonus feats (which explicitly do not require prerequisites) are noted with a B while fighter bonus feats are not.

[loky1109]

Monster Manual 1, p7 : "Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B ( B ). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat."

This is (as far as I know) the only mention of this rule. It is pretty clearly intended for class bonus feats as well, since, in monster statblocks with class levels, ranger bonus feats (which explicitly do not require prerequisites) are noted with a B while fighter bonus feats are not.

Fighter bonus feats have superscript B, too. Maybe not always, but often.

[Morphic tide]

Wildwood from Races of the Wild is a Special Material for armor defined by recovering from damage even after it's been crafted into an item and being durable and flexible enough to substitute for metal, trading +1 armor for +1 maximum Dexterity and -5% Arcane Spell Failure in this case but not meaningfully affecting mostly-not-metal armor. This requires it to be exposed to sunlight, and for best performance also immersed in water. 1 HP/day with one hour of sunlight, 5/day with eight hours under sunlight in water.

Now, there's a lot of fiddly shenanigans in the rules about exactly how much HP it should have and what Flying adds to it, but the unique trick is that you can make Mountain Plate that is both an Awakened "tree" and an Intelligent Magic Item. While the 3.0 Arms & Equipment Guide has Wood armor that can be used for nearly arbitrary Livewood shapes, it has 30 less base HP than Wildwood Mountain Plate, which turns into 480 less HP at Colossal should Flying override the Plant statblock. Given the HP of a Colossal Awakened Tree is only 144 (Plant type loses 32 to HD downgrade and 80 from Construct size bonus), that override is a Big Deal.

[Khedrac]

Monster Manual 1, p7 : "Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B ( B ). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat."

This is (as far as I know) the only mention of this rule. It is pretty clearly intended for class bonus feats as well, since, in monster statblocks with class levels, ranger bonus feats (which explicitly do not require prerequisites) are noted with a B while fighter bonus feats are not.

Thank-you. I am less convinced that it RAW applies to class feats, but I completely agree that you have the intention.

[atemu1234]

Half-Golem templates are have no restrictions by the size of base creature
Thus - even Fine-sized Half-Golem would stay Fine-sized, despite the attached limbs from Large-sized Construct

Huh... does the template specify that the golem parts must originally come from a golem, or are they specifically made for the creature they're affixed to? The latter would make more sense, but considering the topic of the thread...

[Tzardok]

The limbs are created specifically for the recipient.

[ShurikVch]

Huh... does the template specify that the golem parts must originally come from a golem, or are they specifically made for the creature they're affixed to? The latter would make more sense, but considering the topic of the thread...

The limbs are created specifically for the recipient.
While it's true for Flesh and Dragonflesh Half-Golems - not so much for all the other kinds

Firstly, listed material requirements:



Half-Golem
Required material
Weight (lbs.)


Clay
Single block of clay
100


Stone
Single block of stone
300


Iron
Pure iron
500


Stained Glass
Glass shards and lead
10


Brass
Brass
100


As we can see, numbers are static (and kinda high for a creature below Large size?)

Also, just check the pictures:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/sfery/images/7/70/Halfgolem1.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20110512140802https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/sfery/images/7/7a/Halfgolem2.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20110513143245

Does those limbs look like they were "created specifically for the recipient"?

[Metastachydium]

While it's true for Flesh and Dragonflesh Half-Golems - not so much for all the other kinds

Firstly, listed material requirements:

Hm. Did you happen to see America: The Motion Picture?

[ShurikVch]

Hm. Did you happen to see America: The Motion Picture?
No, I didn't
Is it worth it?
And why?..

[Metastachydium]

No, I didn't
Is it worth it?

Yes. So yes!


And why?..

You'd learn how much silver goes into a single silver bullet. Very useful knowledge!

[remetagross]

When a Demonologist hits level 2, they gain an Imp familiar. If they already had another familiar, the Imp devours it.

Take a Druid 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Demonologist 2 character with the Natural Bond feat. Have an elephant as your animal companion/familiar. I find the idea of the imp popping out and devouring an elephant (RAW, an instantaneous process) absolutely hilarious. I figure it comic-like with the mouth of the imp distorting impossibly wide, until the imp swallows the elephant and has an elephant-shaped and elephant-sized hunch in the belly. :D

[daremetoidareyo]

When a Demonologist hits level 2, they gain an Imp familiar. If they already had another familiar, the Imp devours it.

Take a Druid 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Demonologist 2 character with the Natural Bond feat. Have an elephant as your animal companion/familiar. I find the idea of the imp popping out and devouring an elephant (RAW, an instantaneous process) absolutely hilarious. I figure it comic-like with the mouth of the imp distorting impossibly wide, until the imp swallows the elephant and has an elephant-shaped and elephant-sized hunch in the belly. :D

I spent a good week trying to figure out the biggest thing I could get the imp to eat. Bonded summoner can get a huge elder earth elemental. And then I pontificated on what devour means in the context of demonologists ability. Let’s see an imp eat 60,000 lbs of living rock

[loky1109]

When a Demonologist hits level 2, they gain an Imp familiar. If they already had another familiar, the Imp devours it.

Quasit actually. Imp for Diabolist.

[ShurikVch]

Non-magical items don't change size with the owner - unless the change is magical and it said to affect items
Rage isn't magical
Magical Armors - or clothes - are expensive
Thus, most of Goliath Barbarians are fighting nude :smallredface:

[Morphic tide]

Non-magical items don't change size with the owner - unless the change is magical and it said to affect items
Rage isn't magical
Magical Armors - or clothes - are expensive
Thus, most of Goliath Barbarians are fighting nude :smallredface:
500 GP Shiftweave is really not much to ask. 1,400 for a Cloak of Predatory Vigor also works well, though +1 armor is going to serve you better. It is notable for the very lowest levels where Shiftweave or a Shoulder slot filler are a big ask, but it's only going to be "most" if you have a very particular set of demographics where a majority are both totally unsponsored for this embarrassment and took the racial substitution level for Mountain Rage.

[ShurikVch]

500 GP Shiftweave is really not much to ask.
2nd-level wealth is 900 gp - that Shiftweave would be their most priced possession (IIRR, it's discouraged to allow items with cost over 50% of total wealth)

[Wildstag]

Non-magical items don't change size with the owner - unless the change is magical and it said to affect items
Rage isn't magical
Magical Armors - or clothes - are expensive
Thus, most of Goliath Barbarians are fighting nude :smallredface:

Except for the fact that Mountain Rage states "his equipment still fits normally".

[ShurikVch]

Except for the fact that Mountain Rage states "his equipment still fits normally".
It's "Hilarious things you've found in RAW" thread - not "Dysfunctional Rules": see above the example with Imp/Quasit instantly devouring the Familiar which can be much bigger (and stronger) than Imp/Quasit - it's RAW-functional, but ridiculous from the common sense perspective
Try to put clothes/footwear on a person which is 1' taller and 40% heavier than the previous wearer - shouldn't it be interesting to look at?
(Also, the whole "hulking out" theme is a classics...)

[Telok]

Try to put clothes/footwear on a person which is 1' taller and 40% heavier than the previous wearer - shouldn't it be interesting to look at?

Saw that going the other way yesterday. Guy looked like a tuxedo clown. Giant shoes, baggy pants, over long sleeves. Then we re-checked name tags on the costumes. Would have been great to have the other guy put on the smaller costume, but the shoes wouldn't have fit. Maybe they just wear extra large clothes?

I suppose the too small shoes do function normally as long as there's a sole and the laces don't break though. And trousers still function even if they've been turned into extra floppy loin cloths. Kilts still work.

[Wildstag]

It's "Hilarious things you've found in RAW" thread - not "Dysfunctional Rules": see above the example with Imp/Quasit instantly devouring the Familiar which can be much bigger (and stronger) than Imp/Quasit - it's RAW-functional, but ridiculous from the common sense perspective
Try to put clothes/footwear on a person which is 1' taller and 40% heavier than the previous wearer - shouldn't it be interesting to look at?
(Also, the whole "hulking out" theme is a classics...)

Yeah, but the rules explicitly state that clothing still fits, so the "hulk out" bit would only happen if the GM decided it.

Your comment was originally "the goliath barbarian fights naked because clothes don't resize". That is obviously NOT RAW.

[Inevitability]

A 20th-level maxed-strength barbarian, scourge of the realm, cannot tear paper with his bare hands, because unarmed attacks deal nonlethal damage and objects are immune to that.

[hamishspence]

A 20th-level maxed-strength barbarian, scourge of the realm, cannot tear paper with his bare hands, because unarmed attacks deal nonlethal damage and objects are immune to that.

They can - they just take a -4 penalty on their attack rolls.


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage


Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage
You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll.




There's also the "use the Sunder action instead of trying to do damage" option.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#smashinganObject


Breaking Items
When a character tries to break something with sudden force rather than by dealing damage, use a Strength check (rather than an attack roll and damage roll, as with the sunder special attack) to see whether he or she succeeds. The DC depends more on the construction of the item than on the material.

If an item has lost half or more of its hit points, the DC to break it drops by 2.

[ShurikVch]

Yeah, but the rules explicitly state that clothing still fits, so the "hulk out" bit would only happen if the GM decided it.
FWIW, "hulk out" was RAW in the begin of 3.5 - for Lycanthropes:

Changing to animal or hybrid form ruins the character's armor and clothing (including any items worn) if the new form is larger than the character’s natural form; carried items are simply dropped. Characters can hastily doff clothing while changing, but not armor. Magic armor survives the change if it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

It was errated out later...


Except for the fact that Mountain Rage states "his equipment still fits normally".
And this statement doesn't change even in case of goliath-bonded stoneblessed
So, non-magical clothes(/armor) still fit raging goliath-bonded human, gnome, or even jermlaine?
(Also, on separate "hilarious thing" there - RAW statement "up to 1' taller and up to 40% heavier" don't changes for goliath-bonded stoneblessed too! :smallamused: Thus, we should believe 2' tall creature is Large?..)

[St Fan]

Anybody ever mentioned the LOL potential for the Capstone of the Elemental Savant prestige class, "Elemental Perfection"?


At 10th level, an elemental savant, through long association with elemental entities and extensive study of their secrets, completely transcends her mortal form to become an elemental creature. Her type changes to elemental. She no longer needs to eat, sleep, or breathe (though she must still rest to regain spells). She gains an elemental creature?s immunity to stunning, and she is no longer subject to extra damage from critical hits or fl anking. An elemental savant gains the speed and movement modes, natural attacks, special attacks, and special qualities of a Medium elemental of the type appropriate to her elemental specialty, as noted in the Monster Manual

Now, this isn't too bad for a Air or Earth elemental. On the other hand, the Water elemental's "drench" property may be bothersome, easily ruining some manipulated things such as paper or scroll, and accidentally dousing torches... plus constant "wet T-shirt" look.

But the Fire elemental... the "burn" property puts at risk anything flammable the character touch, especially scrolls or spellbook -- not the best thing for a wizard. Worse, that include everything worn... if the character can't find some fireproof clothing, it's nude adventuring for him/her.
Plus, I don't know for sure, but I don't think falling into water is gonna be good for your health...

And no, nowhere in RAW is it specified whether an elemental can turn off the burn or drench properties.

[Chronos]

She was winning the Dominarian "Are You Hot?" competition until disaster struck during the wet T-shirt round. (https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74267)

[InvisibleBison]

I don't think drench (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#waterElemental) and burn (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#fireElemental) work like that. Burn only affects things the elemental hits or creatures that hit the elemental, and drench only says that it puts out fires, not that generally makes things wet. Of course, the fact that those abilities don't work like they obviously should probably qualifies for this thread in its own right.

[RSGA]

So, warforged are supposed to take half healing from most standard ways of healing damage as evidenced by the rather wide wording on their resistance to healing. Feats, however, don't give supernatural abilities as a general rule unless they somehow call themselves out as doing so (Psionic feats, Reserve Feats), or deal with supernatural abilities, which makes the feat's nature itself rather moot for where I'm going.

A lot of healing things either fall into those situations, or like Complete Scoundrel's Healing Hands feat have issues with being used on a warforged. But can you guess what feat is take able by warforged and has no verbiage about being a class of feat that's a supernatural ability, gives a supernatural ability, or being a Healing subschool power?

If you guessed Healing Soul from Magic of Incarnum, give yourself a cookie. Also decide which bit of this RAW strangeness is funniest.

[Chronos]

Warforged do have souls, if that's what you're getting at. And while I can't find any such rule, given how scattered some of the rules are in Magic of Incarnum, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a rule hidden away somewhere that incarnum feats are supernatural.

[St Fan]

Warforged do have souls, if that's what you're getting at. And while I can't find any such rule, given how scattered some of the rules are in Magic of Incarnum, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a rule hidden away somewhere that incarnum feats are supernatural.

I'm pretty sure all incarnum feats are explicitly supernatural. Like soulmelds, they stop working in an antimagic shell.

[ShurikVch]

So, warforged are supposed to take half healing from most standard ways of healing damage as evidenced by the rather wide wording on their resistance to healing.
The more hilarious thing there is the very fact Warforged must suffer that "half-healing" - while, say, Golems (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm) mustn't
I mean: sure, Cure and Vigor spell lines specifying "living creatures" - but Heal or Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords are have no such restrictions (the latter even heals Undead!)
So, which one is really a "Living" Construct: Warforged, who recovers 5 hp/CL (up to 75) from Heal spell - or Golem, which recovers 10 hp/CL (up to 150) from it? :smallamused:

[RSGA]

Warforged do have souls, if that's what you're getting at. And while I can't find any such rule, given how scattered some of the rules are in Magic of Incarnum, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a rule hidden away somewhere that incarnum feats are supernatural.
I was more going for just this one form of Essentia/Incarnum use has full effect on warforged while other ones don't due to either explicitly being supernatural effects (soulmelds due to Soulmeld-Magic transperancy) or are doing things to already supernatural abilities (Azure Touch). But just this one form has full effect.



I'm pretty sure all incarnum feats are explicitly supernatural. Like soulmelds, they stop working in an antimagic shell.

I double checked the first four chapters up to the point of listing out the soulmelds. The feats (and other incarnum receptacles) are only RAW called out to be like soulmelds for one purpose, and that is for putting essentia in them like soulmelds. Also with the exception of the feats taking it up for the whole day. The only incarnum feats that are RAW supernatural are the ones that are also Psionic feats, because that's part of the description of Psionic feats. The bit on Soulmeld-Magic transperancy only calls out soulmelds as losing their benefits not any other receptacles. Not that it matters too often for the magic item receptacles.

And of course the monster writeups and PRCs don't give any consensus.

[hamishspence]

The more hilarious thing there is the very fact Warforged must suffer that "half-healing" - while, say, Golems (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm) mustn't
I mean: sure, Cure and Vigor spell lines specifying "living creatures" - but Heal or Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords are have no such restrictions (the latter even heals Undead!)
So, which one is really a "Living" Construct: Warforged, who recovers 5 hp/CL (up to 75) from Heal spell - or Golem, which recovers 10 hp/CL (up to 150) from it? :smallamused:

Most Golems are immune to most magic that allows spell resistance. A Heal spell is: spell resistance Yes (harmless). A Heal spell does not work at all on, say, a clay golem:


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm


Regular constructs, by contrast, can be healed more easily since most Healing spells allow a Will save, and regular constructs don't have any special immunity to those unless specified.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType

So you could heal a random Animated Construct


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm


more efficiently than you could heal a warforged.

Though, as you say, you might not be able to use a Cure spell on one - the Cure text says Living Creature:


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureLightWounds.htm
When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5).

though the "Target" line in the spell just says Creature - presumably the Text takes precedence over the Target line in the spell, and that would that be why the Repair line of spells exists.

[Tzardok]

The target line says "creature" because otherwise you couldn't target undead with it.
Combined with the description this line leads to "You can cast this spell on any creature, but it will only have an effect on living ones (healing) and undead ones ( damage)".

[ShurikVch]

Most Golems are immune to most magic that allows spell resistance. A Heal spell is: spell resistance Yes (harmless). A Heal spell does not work at all on, say, a clay golem
1. There are certain ways to avoid SR - like Su SA, or Ravenloft devices. In that case, Golem's Immunity to Magic wouldn't work
2. There are certain ways to remove SR - such as Stone Golem and Stone to Flesh
3. There are some kinds of Golems which are actually lacking Immunity to Magic SQ (for example, several Golems from the Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene)

[hamishspence]

1. There are certain ways to avoid SR - like Su SA, or Ravenloft devices. In that case, Golem's Immunity to Magic wouldn't work
2. There are certain ways to remove SR - such as Stone Golem and Stone to Flesh

Golems don't have Spell Resistance - they have the Immunity To Magic special ability in place of Spell Resistance. Though yes, a Supernatural ability will have full effect on a 3.5 MM golem, as will a spell with SR- No, and a spell the golem is specifically affected by, ignores the Immunity To Magic special quality as well. Stone To Flesh removes a stone golems Immunity To Magic special property, but only for 1 round.


Epic Golems, at least, retain the old 3.0-style "immunity that works on all magical effects, including supernatural abilities and spells with "SR - No"" in 3.5.

The tradeoff for the Epic Golem owner is that while, say, a dragon breath won't harm the golem, the caster can't repair the golem with magic, either. A Repair Critical Damage spell will work on an iron golem, but it won't work on a Mithril golem or an Adamantine Golem.

[Darg]

Complete Arcane declares that spells requiring attack rolls function like weapons, so you can take feats like weapon focus for them.

The only problem is that weapon focus requires weapon proficiency, and there's no such thing as being proficient in a spell, so no character can actually qualify for this use of the feat.

And if you say there is such a thing a proficiency in spells... no class or feat grants it, so all spell attack rolls are made at -4.

I think the theory here is that the prerequisite is the chosen weapon. As grapple and Rays aren't specifically weapons, when you select them you aren't selecting weapons and so aren't required to have proficiency.

[Yora]

I still keep having a laugh any time I flip through the Expanded Pionics Handbook and see the power deja vu on page 91.

...and on page 92. :smallbiggrin:

[St Fan]

I double checked the first four chapters up to the point of listing out the soulmelds. The feats (and other incarnum receptacles) are only RAW called out to be like soulmelds for one purpose, and that is for putting essentia in them like soulmelds. Also with the exception of the feats taking it up for the whole day. The only incarnum feats that are RAW supernatural are the ones that are also Psionic feats, because that's part of the description of Psionic feats. The bit on Soulmeld-Magic transperancy only calls out soulmelds as losing their benefits not any other receptacles. Not that it matters too often for the magic item receptacles.

And of course the monster writeups and PRCs don't give any consensus.

The very introduction of the book is making it quite clear that EVERY incarnum effect is magical in nature, not just soulmelds (emphasis mine):


Incarnum is an amorphous magical substance made up of the soul energies of all sentient creatures—living, dead, and, it is theorized, those even not yet born.

In its pure form, incarnum resembles a radiant mist, deep blue in color. Those trained or gifted in manipulating incarnum can shape it into physical objects (called soulmelds) or simply use it to imbue themselves with power.

[JNAProductions]

I still keep having a laugh any time I flip through the Expanded Pionics Handbook and see the power deja vu on page 91.

...and on page 92. :smallbiggrin:

Is that... Is that intentional?
I want to believe that was intentional. Because it's perfect.

[Yora]

It's the only duplicate spell, power, or feat I've ever seen in any of the books.
They did not make such mistakes.

[sreservoir]

It's the only duplicate spell, power, or feat I've ever seen in any of the books.
They did not make such mistakes.

They have made the opposite mistake, though! One example I'm aware of is that Complete Arcane doesn't print the Sudden Enlarge feat. The warmage class feature still refers to the chapter it should've been in, though.

[Yora]

Now I am wondering if there are any feats or spells that got added to the desxriptions, but were missed in the lists at the start of the chapter, and nobody ever noticed to this day.

[Chronos]

The Fifth Edition PHB had a spell that got its name changed between the class lists at the beginning of the spells section and the description of the spell itself. That one was especially annoying, because in 5th edition, the spell descriptions didn't tell you what classes could cast it: That information was only in the lists.

[Darg]

Now I am wondering if there are any feats or spells that got added to the desxriptions, but were missed in the lists at the start of the chapter, and nobody ever noticed to this day.

One of the most disappointing differences between a table and description I've seen is the Swift Mind Strike feat in Complete Psionics. The table says that you can give yourself a -2 attack penalty to imbue your mind blade with psychic strike as a swift action. When you go to actually read the feat it got rid of the penalty entirely to let you swift action imbue only once per day.

[ShurikVch]

Searing Seed spell, while horrible on its own, is hilarious in the way it can be applied to Outsiders - thus, you can use it to produce Half-Fiend Creature, then - Half-Fiend Half-Fiend ... , Half-Fiend Half-Fiend Half-Fiend ... , and so on...
(Sure, technically, it's just one more NI loop -but isn't it hilarious?)