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SangoProduction
2023-09-29, 06:21 AM
Build Concept: Have a set of usable spells that are entirely, and utterly, [instill]-talent based. As in, all of the spells in use must be done through a consumable (such as a potion or food). Not just fluffed as a potion, or the like, but literally make use of the potion rules... Which makes it quite the pain in the axe.
First and foremost: There are no rules for administering potions to active combat participants, willing or otherwise, except yourself. So, even if you want to be a support, you've got to actively remind your team that they do have a healing potion, and its their job to take the proper action.
Yay bookkeeping! Even more so than the most punishing of the Prepared Spells drawback. Except these are taken as talents! Per Sphere! (Unless you use the drawback to force casting to be done through instill. Which we obviously will.)

(Foreword: Obviously the different solutions presented here can be mix and matched.)
Obvious solution: Buffs and Heals. Don't even bother trying to be combat effective. You are just a buff bot. This is a rather boring way to do things, such that once you make your items, you literally walk away from the table when combat starts. A very passive aggressive way to say you'd like less combat.

Solution #2: Speed drinking. Although it sucks to spend yet further resources just to negate the negatives of this inferior method of using spells, it is an option.
For this, you'll want Accelerated Drinker... Apparently Potion Glutton used to be a swift action according to the internet. It's not currently to the best of my knowledge.
But, by being able to drink as a move action, you'd be able to effectively "cast" (gain the effects of) twice as many spells in a turn than normal... which is an objective benefit. Only for targeting self, but still, you could convince your entire table to eat a trait pick just for your build. (And then... just... not move the first turn. I guess. Or whenever they remember they have the potion(s) you gave them.)

Solution #3: Complex buffs: The Nature Sphere only allows for instilling spirits. But, each individual spirit talent tends to have 5+ sub-abilities unlocked (3 at a time) by taking Master of Elements. And, for example, Dragonlung, simply gives you a breath weapon while you have the buff. Are they the best buffs out there? No. Are they the best things to spend your actions on? No. Are they much more interesting than "Here's +4 armor. Have fun"? Yes.

Solution #4: Self-Buff martial. We could go for Speed Drinking to apply buffs as a move action, and attack as a standard action. Or utilize Spheres of Might. Problem? Well, one, martials are boring. But aside from that, the point of the build is to be based on using instill talents. As a martial, or martial-focused character, the [instill] buffs are more incidental than the focus. Even for Alteration-based martials, in my opinion.

Solution #5: Blood sphere. Unironically, due to the Manipulate Alchemy talent.... Which... might not actually work as an [instill], due to the ability being an immediate action in response to consuming a potion. But for sake of argument, let's assume it does... So, your entire team has 1 OOT-free-action potion you can proc on them. Indefinite duration too... so long as you concentrate. And you might have to concentrate on each individually... It is unclear, as far as Instil goes. Can you [mass] [instill], and thus only need to concentrate on one effect for the entire party's free action potions? Probably. I'd allow it.
Also, Blood Potion lets you create Potions (actual magic items) that only affect you, and which can be used as a swift action. Which is... neat. I guess.
Basically an expansion on Speed drinking, but includes friends. And eats up your actions (and potions) until it's actually called for. Yeah, blood sphere kinda sucks.

Out of Combat Usage: Divination sphere can be instilled. And you basically don't divine in combat, so this is just a strict...ly meaningless distinction. Much like any long-term buff, where you drink it long outside of combat, and then... again, the distinction of being [instill] is rather meaningless. But usable.

Instill Death: Instill Death is a specific [instill] talent which is a uniquely useful [instill] talent, in that it enables ghost strikes to be instilled, and thrown as small grenades (for an additional spell point). And so long as you don't use die-roll-based effects, you hit upwards of 9 targets with [levels] rounds of paralyze. In addition to obvious out-of-combat utility of raising the dead. And the benefit is that you can throw it, giving range, unlike the [Mass] version which is a cone starting from you.
Energy Bomb is similarly an Instill talent with pretty much the same function, though strictly worse than literally every other blast shape.

Potential Sphere
Alteration
Blood
Dark
Death
Destruction
Divination
Enhancement
Fate
Illusion (Glamers only)
Life
Light (Glow only - so screw your team [except Encompassing Light still works without that] )
Dark (No melds - so screw your team)
Mind (You'd need good old deception to actually get them to drink your charm potion)
Nature (Spirits only)
Protection (Aegis only)
Time
Warp (Teleport only)
Weather (Shroud / Mantle only)


Out of the presented (which is shockingly a lot), the most combat-useful and combat-interesting is Death sphere. And Nature Sphere. Everything else is basically a long term buff (for which the fact that it was a potion wasn't relevant) / otherwise out-of-combat, or a heal (which is thematic at lest). Or it's just a straight up worse version of the original sphere with no redeeming qualities. Even the Blood sphere manages to be made worse through [instill]. That is impressive! (You will definitely feel clever when you do convince people to drink your charm potions though. Even if it's strictly worse in every way to just casting it.)

Problem with Death sphere is that you don't actually have people drink the ghost strike version, so not totally in line with the build concept, which leaves only Nature sphere. And Nature does admittedly have its place, and can be a fun enough version of this. Then again, it's also just a long term buff... But is an interesting enough twist on the concept of a buff that it isn't egregiously boring.

I mean, as a self-buff, turning Alteration from a Standard to a Move action, without even having to dip into Shifter is kinda funny. Like you totally obviate the class with a talent and a trait. Now, there are some fringe benefits that it does slowly given, but you have to admit that's the majority of its power. (Much less flexible [on the fly] though. Although combat forms of Alteration sphere tend to be exactly the same, unless very specific situation features are added. Despite the loads of text, there's not actually a lot of choices you tend to make once you have the talents.)

--
Conclusion: This was actually kinda depressing. Not gonna lie. I came in here with a strong vision, and grand hopes. And... despite my efforts, absolutely nothing prevailed. Nature was literally the only one that even seemed remotely fun to use in this way - and not in a way unique to using [instill]. (But remains unique in still being fun despite [instill].)
And before anyone says it: Yes, I know other people can use their actions to do your things. But... most people have their own characters. Who want to do their own things. Even ignoring the tedium of bookkeeping and inventory management, for which your team almost definitely doesn't want to be burdened by your character. So... enjoy.

(Although that "other people" can also potentially be familiars. Which is a great way to get your familiars sniped off the face of the map. But still potentially abusable until they die. Maybe even train some monkeys or something. That way you intend for them to die in their first round of combat and don't feel bad... hmm. Does that make me the bad guy? nah.)

thethird
2023-09-29, 07:13 PM
Can I make a suggestion?

Be a radiant (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Radiant) take Collectivist, lifebinder, and soulchemist archetypes.

Take arcane venin (the champion feat) and use your free alchemy talents to get alchemy rolling. You can use them for your 'soul' food or for your 'tangible' food.

Using means to add people to your collective you could use 'soul' food on people you add, those could have offensive (or beneficial) effects.

SangoProduction
2023-09-29, 07:21 PM
Can I make a suggestion?

Be a radiant (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Radiant) take Collectivist, lifebinder, and soulchemist archetypes.

Take arcane venin (the champion feat) and use your free alchemy talents to get alchemy rolling. You can use them for your 'soul' food or for your 'tangible' food.

Using means to add people to your collective you could use 'soul' food on people you add, those could have offensive (or beneficial) effects.

Reading the radiant, I'd be so interested in the Akashic nonsense if it weren't even harder to find a DM for than even Spheres. Or Pathfinder in general, I guess.

Regardless, based on my cursory look, this does seem to check out.

Ramza00
2023-09-29, 08:02 PM
Not Instill talents specifically, but adjacent enough so I am adding it for a lover of potions and alchemist formulae. :smalltongue:




Tattoo of Potion Storing [TS]

Aura faint Life; CL 3rd
Slot any; Price 3,600 gp; Weight -

These tattoos come in a variety of shapes and styles and are often customized by the user and their tattoo artist. As a standard action, the bearer can store one potion or alchemical formulae within the tattoo, which captures the power within and retains it indefinitely. At the GM’s discretion, this tattoo may also store similar effects. If storing a formulae, the formulae stored within the tattoo no longer counts against the user’s maximum number of formulae prepared at one time. If another potion or formulae is added when the tattoo of potion storing is already full, the old item’s effect is lost and the new one replaces it. As a swift action, the bearer can mentally activate the tattoo to consume the potion or formulae and gain its effects; the effects only apply to the bearer of the tattoo, even if they could normally be spread to other allies. After activating this tattoo, the user must rest for 8 hours before another potion or formulae can be added; the tattoo needs time to cleanse itself of lingering energies. A character may have up to two of these tattoos inked into their skin, which take up one magic item slot each but can be disabled (without losing any stored effects) by equipping another magic item in that slot. The tattoo appears bright and colorful while it contains a potion or formulae, but dull and faded when nothing is contained within.

Flask Shard Effect: Increase the number times the tattoo can be activated each day by 1. (This does not allow storing more than one potion or formulae per tattoo, but does allow bearers to use it multiple times before it needs to recover.) Flask Shard Limit: +2

Construction Requirements
Craft Marvelous Item, Life sphere (Fount Of Life, Self-Renewal); Cost 1,800 gp

http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/marvelous-items


It would be reasonable for a GM if they allow this item as a 1/day to allow upgraded versions for 3 or 5 a day.

Formulae Geomancing

Prerequisites: Nature sphere (three or more packages).

Benefit: You may read and use an alchemist’s formulae book, creating extracts for use during the day as an alchemist does. You must have a caster level with the entire Nature sphere equal to 3x the level of the extract, and use your Nature caster level as your caster level for the extracts. You must spend 1 spell point per level of the created extract, and only you can drink the extract to gain its effects.

http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/nature#toc80



So not instill feat related, but close enough in my opinion.

SangoProduction
2023-09-29, 08:04 PM
Those options did just not even come across my mind. Interesting and useful.

Rynjin
2023-09-29, 09:31 PM
Gaining access to the Barroom Sphere gives you more bang for your buck than Accelerated Drinker, by the by.

Ramza00
2023-09-29, 09:57 PM
Gaining access to the Barroom Sphere gives you more bang for your buck than Accelerated Drinker, by the by.

Barroom Utility Start that Legends of the Spheres added

Bar Regular [Utility Start]: You do not gain the brutal breaker ability. You gain one of Boozehound, Charming Drunk, or Drunken Insight as a bonus talent.

But while you lose the 1) Brutal Breaker ability 2) Barroom base still has Hard Drinker so you get that as part of the utility start and not just Boozehound / Charming Drunk / Drunken Insight.

SangoProduction
2023-09-29, 11:35 PM
Fair enough, let's collate all the related talents and see what they are good for.

Barroom base sphere: Both grabs and drinks as a move action. Most tables would just say you could drink, so long as it was on your belt without an action to grab it (because it's already punishing enough), but that's technically not raw. So strict upgrade.
Also gets you very briefly drunk off of the potion.

(Plus obviously everything that has Ctrl+F "drunk". But let's focus on what's specifically helpful for the drunk spells.)

You Want Some: Lets you force someone else to drink as an attack action. Although they get a reflex save, and on failure are sickened for 1 round. Define "non-directly harmful" would be needed. And as a combat buff applier, it does apply sickened. But that's a substantial step up from literally not being possible in raw, whatsoever.

Miracle Drink: You consume the drunk buff to gain bonus charisma, to improve the power of your potions. Then you get to be otherwise drunk while actually in combat.

Reeling Steps: Negates the Dexterity bonus to CMD for opponents trying to not Want Some.

thethird
2023-09-30, 02:04 AM
Reading the radiant, I'd be so interested in the Akashic nonsense if it weren't even harder to find a DM for than even Spheres. Or Pathfinder in general, I guess.

Regardless, based on my cursory look, this does seem to check out.

For my group it's kind of the other way around. Akasha is based in incarnum which was 3.5 so my group knows it, we have had to adapt to spheres.

That also explains why you seem to not given much thought on the servers to the veilweaving sphere.

SangoProduction
2023-09-30, 03:40 AM
For my group it's kind of the other way around. Akasha is based in incarnum which was 3.5 so my group knows it, we have had to adapt to spheres.

That also explains why you seem to not given much thought on the servers to the veilweaving sphere.

Yeah. Incarnum was really a fun system (hypothetically, even if totally unsupported), but even when I was playing in person, with a table that I was with for a while, not a single person actually wanted to deal with it. Though after a while it did kinda feel like it was just different for the purpose of being different, without any substantial benefit. (Though that could easily have been because it had no support.)

Serafina
2023-09-30, 07:06 AM
Reading the radiant, I'd be so interested in the Akashic nonsense if it weren't even harder to find a DM for than even Spheres. Or Pathfinder in general, I guess.I actually managed to find a GM that was fine with Akasha, Spheres of Akahasa, Spheres, Path of War, and even the Trinity-classes.

It was a Wrath of the Righteous game, so Mythic was on the table too. At that point, you maintan balance manually anyhow, and are fine with PCs being able to pull off ludicrous BS.

Incidentally, your guides were highly useful to convince said group to get on board with Spheres, so thanks for that.

SangoProduction
2023-09-30, 01:02 PM
I actually managed to find a GM that was fine with Akasha, Spheres of Akahasa, Spheres, Path of War, and even the Trinity-classes.

It was a Wrath of the Righteous game, so Mythic was on the table too. At that point, you maintan balance manually anyhow, and are fine with PCs being able to pull off ludicrous BS.

Incidentally, your guides were highly useful to convince said group to get on board with Spheres, so thanks for that.

No problem, and Thank you.

Promethean
2023-09-30, 07:24 PM
Whatever build you settle on, I Dare you to use the Miscibility table.
There's nothing quite as heart-pounding as the threat of randomly exploding into meaty chunks when paired with the possibility acquiring a permanent at-will spell-like from a lucky/unlucky roll.
Had a player accidentally become permanently invisible from miscibility once, from there the campaign hooks wrote themselves.