PDA

View Full Version : Masterwork instrument (oratory)



Zenos
2007-12-09, 02:07 PM
What kind of instrument would aid one in reciting poems or shouting encouraging stuff at other people? What comes to mind is a masterwork megaphone, a masterwork poetry book, or a masterwork book full of stories. Any other suggestions?

Lord Tataraus
2007-12-09, 02:09 PM
A podium or wooden crate with the word soap written on it. I'd love to see a bard carry either of those around!

martyboy74
2007-12-09, 02:10 PM
Masterwork Dentures designed to help you sing?

Perhaps a document that offers really good tips on singing/making speeches/etc.?

Saph
2007-12-09, 02:11 PM
What kind of instrument would aid one in reciting poems or shouting encouraging stuff at other people? What comes to mind is a masterwork megaphone,

Oh no, Cait Sith's made the jump to D&D! Run for the hills!

- Saph

Kurald Galain
2007-12-09, 02:12 PM
A masterwork necktie.

Or sunglasses.

Zenos
2007-12-09, 02:14 PM
All fun ideas! Keep at it, always funny with good flavour.

Arakune
2007-12-09, 02:25 PM
Or a microphone?

Zenos
2007-12-09, 02:52 PM
Oh no, Cait Sith's made the jump to D&D! Run for the hills!

LOL:smallwink:

Serenity
2007-12-09, 03:00 PM
I'd second a book of the greatest poems ever written...or for straight up singing, the investment represents extensive voice lessons from a master.

Zenos
2007-12-09, 03:02 PM
I'd second a book of the greatest poems ever written...or for straight up singing, the investment represents extensive voice lessons from a master.

But if someone took the "masterwork item" away from you?

Riffington
2007-12-09, 03:03 PM
A mouthful of pebbles?

Zeful
2007-12-09, 03:04 PM
My guess would be a silver tounge.

Korias
2007-12-09, 03:04 PM
Masterwork Dictionary-Thesaurus combo. Useful for finding new words for your speeches.

Perhaps a Masterwork "Little guy speaking into your ear" peice.

Zenos
2007-12-09, 03:06 PM
Masterwork Dictionary

Heh, this one's good.

Ulzgoroth
2007-12-09, 03:08 PM
I suppose dragging the concept out and shooting it, hanging it, setting it on fire, and burying the remains at several different crossroads wouldn't be what you're looking for...

Just because the rules don't say there isn't a masterwork tool doesn't mean there should be one. From what I've seen Oratory gets a bunch of popularity from being hands-free. Not being able to get the a MW instrument bonus on that seems a small price to pay.

Er, maybe a little booklet of little inspirational fragments to tack together without rhyme or reason? Or some speech mad-lib sheets?

Mewtarthio
2007-12-09, 03:09 PM
A mouthful of pebbles?

Masterwork pebbles. :smallbiggrin: Bonus points for the Cicero reference, but you lost them all when you forgot the masterwork component.

Firestar27
2007-12-09, 03:10 PM
You can't really have a masterwork instrument (oratory). This is used to balance out the fact the you don't need a free hand to sing.

Zenos
2007-12-09, 03:12 PM
I suppose dragging the concept out and shooting it, hanging it, setting it on fire, and burying the remains at several different crossroads wouldn't be what you're looking for...

Just because the rules don't say there isn't a masterwork tool doesn't mean there should be one. From what I've seen Oratory gets a bunch of popularity from being hands-free. Not being able to get the a MW instrument bonus on that seems a small price to pay.

Er, maybe a little booklet of little inspirational fragments to tack together without rhyme or reason? Or some speech mad-lib sheets?

Would it be too much to ask for you to allow me to add that to my sig, I think it sounds cool.


You can't really have a masterwork instrument (oratory). This is used to balance out the fact the you don't need a free hand to sing.

Nonsense, look at all those good ideas, anyways, it is the DM's choice.

Ralfarius
2007-12-09, 03:15 PM
Masterwork rubber chicken. It's the perfect prop for any stand-up routine!

kamikasei
2007-12-09, 03:18 PM
If you've seen the HBO series Rome, the town crier / news announcer in it delivers speeches to crowds of citizens which really are orations - he's not just delivering news but propaganda given him by the rulers, so he has to put on a convincing performance. He uses very exaggerated and stylized/formalized hand gestures when delivering his lines, to lend emphasis and, presumably, help people follow his meaning when they have difficulty hearing him.

That background said, my suggestion: neon-yellow luminous gloves, to make his hand gestures visible at a distance or in the dark.

RTGoodman
2007-12-09, 03:48 PM
Just because the rules don't say there isn't a masterwork tool doesn't mean there should be one. From what I've seen Oratory gets a bunch of popularity from being hands-free. Not being able to get the a MW instrument bonus on that seems a small price to pay.

But the rules do say that there's a masterwork tool for it. From the SRD:


Musical Instrument, Common or Masterwork: A masterwork instrument grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Perform checks involving its use.

Of course, you may say that oratory and singing don't have an "instrument," and in that case, here's this:


Tool, Masterwork: This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.

So it would appear that for a meager 50-100gp, you can get a masterwork item for any skill, including any Perform.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-09, 03:54 PM
Which lends itself to the question, how do you masterwork some items, like a masterwork item of Iaijutsu focus (Short of a masterwork weapon) or some Professions?

Chronos
2007-12-09, 03:58 PM
So it would appear that for a meager 50-100gp, you can get a masterwork item for any skill, including any Perform.I know that's a common interpretation, but I think it's more reasonable to say that you can only get a masterwork tool for a skill that normally uses a tool in the first place. Nowhere does it say that every skill must have some appropriate tool, and note that it says that masterwork tools of any sort help only with related skills, or skills using the tool.

So you can buy a masterwork lute, which will help you with Perform (strings). You can buy a masterwork paintbrush, to help you with Craft (painting). You can buy masterwork picks to help with Open Locks, and you can buy a masterwork hammer to help with Craft (carpentry). But you can't buy a tool to help with singing, or speechifying.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-09, 04:07 PM
I know that's a common interpretation, but I think it's more reasonable to say that you can only get a masterwork tool for a skill that normally uses a tool in the first place. Nowhere does it say that every skill must have some appropriate tool, and note that it says that masterwork tools of any sort help only with related skills, or skills using the tool.

But Peform (oratory) does use tools. You manipulate the emotions of your audience. Thus, you'd need some sort of masterwork audience. Maybe you could hire some talented plants.

tbarrie
2007-12-09, 04:09 PM
So it would appear that for a meager 50-100gp, you can get a masterwork item for any skill, including any Perform.
Can you explain your reasoning further? Nothing you quoted appears to imply that at all.

Wraithy
2007-12-09, 04:10 PM
Minty Breath Freshener? (this might be better as an alchemical item)

Falrin
2007-12-09, 04:19 PM
Note the difference:

Learning stuff from person x or item y looks more like Leveling and putting some ranks in it. A lot depends on the DM again;
I do't allow PC's to take spellcraft out of the blue, they'll need a book/tutor.
In this manner a good reciting handbook counts as being able to learn the skill.

Using stuff is where MW items come into play. When you use said reciting handbook (as in: holding it in your hands and reading from it) it's an item. So fancy clothes/make-up/atributes might increase your perform: oratory, but not a book.

look at it like this: When a mage finds a serie of books about the planes. Do you give him a constant +2 on knowledge: planes check? Or do you give him a +2 when he has a litlle time to look things up.

TheLogman
2007-12-09, 04:27 PM
When I do Oratory, I carry a book of good quotes for speeches. Maybe carry one of those, to allow you to add good quotes to your stuff?

Zenos
2007-12-09, 04:29 PM
This has sure brought up a discussion about "Does Perform (oratory) allow masterwork items?"

FinalJustice
2007-12-09, 04:47 PM
Note the difference:
Using stuff is where MW items come into play. When you use said reciting handbook (as in: holding it in your hands and reading from it) it's an item. So fancy clothes/make-up/atributes might increase your perform: oratory, but not a book.


IMHO, this pretty much answers the question. Wearing make up/fancy clothes or accessories seems to me like a circunstance that would aid in an oratory, since the wearer would catch some more attention. "Look at that beautiful pale girl/ WTF if that guy in yellow with the sunglasses at night! o.O'". Another interpretation could include accessories that make the wearer seem more serious/reliable/intelligent, such as glasses.

Oracle_Hunter
2007-12-09, 04:51 PM
Psh, forget Perform (Oratory). I'm all about MW Instruments for Perform (Comedy).

Imagine, if you will, the 100 gold banana peel... or masterwork cream pie.

Though for Oratory, I'd have to go with tiny flag pins. :smallbiggrin:

ocato
2007-12-09, 05:04 PM
The Magic Item Compendium has Harmonizing, which grants a +2 bonus to perform (sing) checks. I would rule that you can make masterwork items to alow for sing/oratory checks, but they should cost as much as a +1 (1000g)to an item, to make up for the fact that you can now perform with a free hand(s) which allows you to fight or cast spells (if you have melodic casting) while performing.

Singing could have a tuning fork and oratory could have a good luck charm. The charm wouldn't necessarily be magic, but it might give the performer the confidence to orate as if he were better than he is.

daggaz
2007-12-09, 05:19 PM
I would have no problem with a MW oratory device in my game, you would just have to fulfill the main two prereqs in RAW:

1) it has to be an item that relates to the job (so find some cool fluff idea to support it, theres some good ones here =))

2) and you have to use it (its real so you are holding it or it is somehow or another taking up a slot, for balance issues).

Indon
2007-12-09, 06:29 PM
Note cards!

Craig1f
2007-12-10, 12:23 PM
Orators do not get the benefit of a Masterwork item to increase their perform check, as a balance for the fact that they don't have to carry and play an instrument. Musicians get masterwork items, but they have to carry, and play their instrument, which prevents them from fighting while they perform.

If Orators could get the same boost that musicians get for having masterwork instruments, then EVERYONE will choose to be an Orator because it will be clearly the most powerful choice.

Indon
2007-12-10, 12:38 PM
Orators do not get the benefit of a Masterwork item to increase their perform check, as a balance for the fact that they don't have to carry and play an instrument. Musicians get masterwork items, but they have to carry, and play their instrument, which prevents them from fighting while they perform.

If Orators could get the same boost that musicians get for having masterwork instruments, then EVERYONE will choose to be an Orator because it will be clearly the most powerful choice.

But almost all the suggestions for Orator MW instruments have required people to hold them, which would prevent them from fighting while they perform.

The only thing Orator would give is the option to use a no-hands non-masterwork ability.

Perform (Kazoo), however, is clearly overpowered because it requires no hands, with or without a masterwork tool. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html)

Riffington
2007-12-10, 12:43 PM
Nowhere in the rules does it say that there is a masterwork tool for every skill. It says that there exist masterwork tools for certain specific skills (open locks, disable device, climb, etc), and that there exist masterwork tools for other skills than the ones specified.

A DM could be highly permissive and allow a set of shoes that were simultaneously masterwork toolkits for jumping, tumbling, and balance.
Or he could say that there is no masterwork toolkit for tumbling in existence, that the masterwork toolkit for balance is a pole that requires two hands, and that the masterwork toolkit for jumping is an entirely different pole that also requires two hands. So far, either interpretation is RAW.

Most DM's will go slightly non-RAW, and will change the prices on Artisan's Tools. (5gp and required for any craft). Craft Poetry requires at most pen/paper, and Craft (Weaponsmithing) surely requires tools that are more expensive.

The_Werebear
2007-12-10, 12:44 PM
I'm going to second the Masterwork Plant idea. Someone who is trained exactly when to start applauding and when to shout down jeerers. Maybe even someone to look scary so no one argues with you.

I also like the masterwork soapbox idea.

Riffington
2007-12-10, 12:46 PM
Perform (Kazoo), however, is clearly overpowered because it requires no hands, with or without a masterwork tool. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html)

It would be, except that as the comic points out, Perform (Kazoo) does not actually offer any of the usual perform benefits.

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-10, 12:56 PM
If you can work out a tool that can be used you should be able to use one.

After all with these you have to use hands and you can get items to improve perform. (clapping)

Jayabalard
2007-12-10, 01:03 PM
But the rules do say that there's a masterwork tool for it. From the SRD:Nope; neither of these rules actually say that there is a masterwork tool for it; they just give the rules for those things that do have masterwork instruments or tools.

Craig1f
2007-12-10, 01:07 PM
But almost all the suggestions for Orator MW instruments have required people to hold them, which would prevent them from fighting while they perform.

The only thing Orator would give is the option to use a no-hands non-masterwork ability.

Perform (Kazoo), however, is clearly overpowered because it requires no hands, with or without a masterwork tool. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html)

But you're still getting the best of both worlds then. You're still creating a situation where anyone creating a bard would say "dude, why would I not become an Orator?"

You either become an Orator, and you have your hands free, and don't have to lug around an instrument, or you carry an instrument, and get a +2 (it's +2 right?) bonus to perform checks.

Any time you create an item/class variant/class choice, in which every logical player says "why would I not get that???", it is clearly imbalanced.

Barbarian Pounce, Belt of Battle, Ring of the Darkhidden, Shocktrooper, Divine Persist Spell. These are all things that are must-haves.

Indon
2007-12-10, 01:18 PM
It would be, except that as the comic points out, Perform (Kazoo) does not actually offer any of the usual perform benefits.

Elan doesn't actually offer any of the usual perform benefits; he's about as useful with his Kazoo as he is with his Lute.


But you're still getting the best of both worlds then. You're still creating a situation where anyone creating a bard would say "dude, why would I not become an Orator?"

You either become an Orator, and you have your hands free, and don't have to lug around an instrument, or you carry an instrument, and get a +2 (it's +2 right?) bonus to perform checks.


Or you choose Perform (Kazoo)... or Harmonica, or "Stomp", or whatever hands-free instrument, and you don't even need hands for your Masterwork tool. So why even pick Orator, there are superior options availible right now if you know of enough instruments.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-10, 06:22 PM
It would be, except that as the comic points out, Perform (Kazoo) does not actually offer any of the usual perform benefits.

No, but instead it offers you the awesome ability of casting the Insanity spell. On your allies only, but nevertheless awesome!

Prometheus
2007-12-10, 06:59 PM
How about a flag or a banner? You can never find a politician giving an oratory without it so it must provide a circumstance bonus :P

Seriously though, I think it would simply have to be a fine symbol relating to your speech. A priest with his ornate holy symbol. A rebellion leader with a bright torch. A general lifting his father's blade before the battle. A scholar with books and scrolls.

Old_el_Paso
2007-12-10, 07:17 PM
Mithral vocal cords created and implanted by an insane gnome wizard named Carl.

Laurellien
2007-12-11, 04:50 AM
Masterwork Loud Hailer.

Culwch
2007-12-11, 05:47 AM
My first thought was (masterwork) mouthful of pebbles, too.

But, consider a masterwork professional attire (chosen for the occasion). For a sermon, a masterwork priestly garb; for trial, a wig and black silk robes; For rousing the troops before battle, a white warhorse, shiny plate armour and banners flying behind you.

There was this mechanic in World of Darkness Mage - if you dressed properly for spellcasting/dealing with spirits, you got circumstance bonus out of it. For example, if you wished to control a spirit who considered himself a devout practicioner of religion, bonus points for priestly collar or full attire. If the spirit was a soldier, then a general's uniform would do nicely, etc.

So, to sum up, how about an official, professional dress as a MW item for perform (oratory)?