Deadly encounter for my group lvl 13?

[HoboKnight]

Hey guys,
assessing higher-CR encounter difficulty for higher-lvl adventurers is hard as hell, so I turn here. I am planning this for the moment when my party reaches lvl 13(fully rested). Their setup is:
4x paladin
1x optimised ranged fighter

Currently, they:
- have average ac of 22
- have average hp 110, 1 paladin is exception, 150hp(CON +5)
- regularly cast Find steed, then Fly on the steed, meaning flying paladins
- paladins have 2 attacks per turn, average +12 to hit and do on average 40 damage(mostly radiant) with their smites
- they regualry use dispel magic on their enemies
- optimised ranged fighter does 4 attacks per round, has +12 to-hit and does between 20 and 22 dmg per hit

I want to make a fight, where I drop 2 of them, but party survives. I know, a lot depends on the rolls, but I'd really appreciate an assessment of an encounter, I have in mind.
After they prep up, they will be teleported to a village, that is being attacked by gnoll forces under the patronage of Yeenoghu. Players will need to defent a temple with about 50 villagers inside, there will be houses around for cover/tactics. Waves of enemies will "spawn" at the edge of the village and advance among the houses. As currently planned, there will be 5 min(50 rounds) pauses between each wave.

Waves:
1st. wave: 12 gnolls, 12 dretches, 6x hyena, 3x hezrou (I see in this scenario for the party able to remove 12 oppopnents per turn, hezrous may take 2)
2nd wave: 3x marilith(probably the hardest encounter of all)
3rd wave: 15 mad human guards(my players are smart, they will very probably deal subdual damage and feel very good about themselves - as they should)
4th wave: 3x barlghura, 15 dretches, 3x gnoll pack lord, 18 gnolls, 3x vrock
5th wave: 1x Yeenoghu himself

I wonder if "monster wave attacks" will deplete any party resources at all. 3 mariliths are an effort, but a few divine smites can deafeat them in 2-3 rounds. Yeenoghu may stand for 3 rounds imo.

TBH this feels a bit weak with mariliths and Yeenoghu as only semi-challengers.

The toughest encounter my party had defeated at lvl 12 was 1x adult blue dragon, 3x vampire warrior, 4x mage. Dragon did 1 round of damage, then fled, because below 70% hp, mages were all one-shot, after releasing a Fireball each and vampire warriors were slowly reduced to 0hp by flood of radiant attacks.

I would like to emphasize: My goal here is a REALLY HARD fight with possible 2 PCs downed during the battle, not a TPK.

What is your best estimate?

Thanks!

[Unoriginal]

Hey guys,
assessing higher-CR encounter difficulty for higher-lvl adventurers is hard as hell, so I turn here. I am planning this for the moment when my party reaches lvl 13(fully rested). Their setup is:
4x paladin
1x optimised ranged fighter

Currently, they:
- have average ac of 22
- have average hp 110, 1 paladin is exception, 150hp(CON +5)
- regularly cast Find steed, then Fly on the steed, meaning flying paladins
- paladins have 2 attacks per turn, average +12 to hit and do on average 40 damage(mostly radiant) with their smites
- they regualry use dispel magic on their enemies
- optimised ranged fighter does 4 attacks per round, has +12 to-hit and does between 20 and 22 dmg per hit

I want to make a fight, where I drop 2 of them, but party survives. I know, a lot depends on the rolls, but I'd really appreciate an assessment of an encounter, I have in mind.
After they prep up, they will be teleported to a village, that is being attacked by gnoll forces under the patronage of Yeenoghu. Players will need to defent a temple with about 50 villagers inside, there will be houses around for cover/tactics. Waves of enemies will "spawn" at the edge of the village and advance among the houses. As currently planned, there will be 5 min(50 rounds) pauses between each enemy group.

Village map: https://5e.tools/img/adventure/BGDIA/097-ijryu-map-4-2-player.jpg

Waves:
1st. wave: 12 gnolls, 12 dretches, 6x hyena, 3x hezrou (I see in this scenario for the party able to remove 12 oppopnents per turn, hezrous may take 2)
2nd wave: 3x marilith(probably the hardest encounter of all)
3rd wave: 15 mad human guards(my players are smart, they will very probably deal subdual damage and feel very good about themselves - as they should)
4th wave: 3x barlghura, 15 dretches, 3x gnoll pack lord, 18 gnolls, 3x vrock
5th wave: 1x Yeenoghu (https://www.worldanvil.com/block/590698) himself

I wonder if "monster wave attacks" will deplete any party resources at all. 3 mariliths are an effort, but a few divine smites can deafeat them in 2-3 rounds. Yeenoghu may stand for 3 rounds imo.

TBH this feels a bit weak with mariliths and Yeenoghu as only semi-challengers.

The toughest encounter my party had defeated at lvl 12 was 1x adult blue dragon, 3x vampire warrior, 4x mage. Dragon did 1 round of damage, then fled, because below 70% hp, mages were all one-shot, after releasing a Fireball each and vampire warriors were slowly reduced to 0hp by flood of radiant attacks.

I would like to emphasize: My goal here is a REALLY HARD fight with possible 2 PCs downed during the battle, not a TPK.

What is your best estimate?

Thanks!

You could cut the number of waves in half and combine them together. That should solve most of your problems.

Also, have mind-controlled innocents in each waves to make it harder for the PCs to go full ham as much as they'd wish.

Yeenoguh should be observing the whole fight and targeting the PC who has spent the most ressources/taken the most damage/is the hardest for their allies to rescue.

[kazaryu]

So...generally in 5e bounded accuracy means that low CR creatures are still a viable threat if massed in enough numbers. and to an extent thats kind of true. but only if bounded accuracy is being followed. bounded accuracy doesn't really account for having a 22+ AC. at those AC levels you really do start significantly limiting how dangerous fights are.

like...anything with a +2 to hit just assume it won't do any damage. thats the dretch, hyena. they may absorb a few hits. and they can function as a means of controlling the battlefield, but they're very unlikely to hit. you might get a couple of crits, but even then the damage of their attacks isn't all that high. so with that context. lets look at the numbers wave by wave.

(to be clear, with these numbers im averaging the damage a crit does across all attacks that hit. and for creatures that have varying attacks im doing some estimating. but im including the full numbers i used so that if im wildly off by accident someone can correct me)


wave 1: gnolls +4 to hit with 12 attacks per round you're looking at an average of 1.8 hits per round for an average of 7.7 damage per hit. so 13.8 damage per round.
hezrou: +7 to hit with 9 attacks per round is an average of 2.7 hits per round for an average of 8.3 damage per hit. so 11.1 damage per round.
so wave 1 averages around 25 damge per round.

wave 2: marilith +9 to hit with 21 attacks per round is an average of 8.4 hits per round for an average of 14.1 damage per hit is about 119 damage per round

wave 3: i don't know what statblock you're using for these guys. if its the CR 1/8 'guard' statblock then...im just going to assume basically no damage due to how many of them are likely to die before being able to even attack.

wave 4: barlgura (im assuming this is what you meant. the gorilla demons?): +7 to hit and 9 attacks per round means ~2.7 hits per round for an average of 13.3 damage per hit is 36 damage per round
gnoll pack lord: for ease of maths im going to treat the incite rampage feature as more attacks for gnolls. this will inflate gnoll numbers somewhat. anywho: +5 to hit on 6 attacks is an average of 1.2 hits per round at an average of 9.9 damage per hit is around 12 damage per round
gnolls: +4 to hit with 21 attacks per round is an average of 3.2 hits per round at 8 damage per hit is 25 damage per round.

so wave 4 averages about 75 damage per round.

under optimal conditions (for the monsters) thats what the first 4 waves look like. wave 2 is definitely the most theoretically dangerous. but each marilith that falls is going to remove a significant chunk of the damage. a party of 4 paladins, just in their lay on hands has a total of 260 healing. and i think that's enough to more than cover the damage they're likely to recieve spread out across those 4 waves. obviously they don't know that going in so they may blow a few smites during the fights. yeah...i mean even under optimal conditions (i.e. every enemy gets at least 1 round of attacks off) i'd be surprised if any of them even get low on HP unless you hardcore focus a single ally. of course you said an "average" of 22 AC implying that some AC is lower, and that does increase the damage those guys will take. but also conversely some of them have more than 22 AC so...it probably evens out.

so my analysis is...you probably need either better quality attacks or more of them.

some suggestions (these are not intended to be stacked with each other necessarily):
1. give slight accuracy boosts to all of the low CR creatures (basically everyone but the mariliths it think). call it 'blessing of yeenoghu or something. but like...even a +2 will significantly increase how deadly they are, and bring the dretchs/hyenas into the fray as actually viable damage dealers.
2. increase the number of attacks via pack lords. throw a pack lord in the first wave, and change all the pack lords 'incite rampage' ability to hit multiple gnolls. even "all gnolls within 30 feet" is probably not going to break anything. if you do this i'd probably take at least one of the pack lords out of wave 4.
3. if you're not interested in homebrew, fair enough. you can also increase number of attacks via just...adding more bad guys. but that comes with the obvious downside of having even more guys in the initiative.
4. another idea for if you're not liking the idea of homebrew. this one for imporving the quality of attacks. replace the gnolls/dretches and hyenas with slightly more powerful variants. which...actually doesn't increase the quality of attacks. both of hte higher CR gnolls just get more attacks....but giant hyenas are a thing, and would totally not be out of place. they even have the rampage feature which works with incite rampage.


but yeah, i don't think that at least the first 4 waves are deadly enough to force any major resources out of the party. it just depends on how prone to panic your players are. 20+ bad guys seems like a lot so they may blow resources based on that alone.

[J-H]

But but wizards are more powerful! just kidding.
You have a strong party.

That's a lot of tokens to move and dice to roll. I strongly suggest taking the gnolls, dretches, and hyenas and turning them into "Squad of X" or "Mob of X" that moves once, makes multiple attacks for average damage, and has 1 HP pool. It'll save you time at the table.

Yeenoghu is going to last perhaps two rounds, or three if the Paladins are out of spell slots. She has no ranged attacks, and the paladins are likely to pass most of her saves. Also, why no minions? Priests, fanatics, more gnolls, etc., anything to keep them from just surrounding her and bashing her head in. Pre-calculate her jump height. If the party is flying, how high can she jump and hit or grab someone? Should be 20-30'. If they try to pelt her at range, maybe she can ready an action to grab someone out of the sky and slam them to the ground, then start killing that one.

What crowd control are you planning to hit the party with? How about some no-save inhibitors to mix up the battlefield, like upcast Fog Cloud, Spike Growth, and Grease? Better yet, Fog Cloud on top of Spike Growth.... Do gnolls use Caltrops?
How about ranged attackers to force them to spread out?

edit
Here's an aura I gave to a CR 18 ghoul warlord:
Aura of Hunger. Living creatures within 30’ must make a DC 18 Charisma save. On a failed save, they take 4d6
necrotic damage, and must use their reactions to move up to half their speed towards the closest living target and
make their normal melee attack against it. On a successful save, they take 2d6 necrotic damage. A creature reduced to 0hp or killed by this aura will immediately rise as a Greater Ghoul upon dying.

I'd give something like that to Yeenoghu since she's all about madness and devouring things. Turn the party against themselves and devour their Reactions. They are Paladins so they will probably pass most of the time, but even a 25% fail rate is going to be nice for you.

[arnin77]

What about this as an idea:

You have the 5 waves all happening at the same time...

Your PCs teleport to the top of a hillside that overlooks the town - they see Yeenoghu in the middle of the town square surrounded by Flind bodyguards, chopping away at the citizens - determined to destroy the statue of the fabled hero that is the namesake of the town and who helped trap Yeenoghu last time. The PCs see this plus 4 other spots like a lietenant and forces at a Temple trying to desecrate it, at a Barracks trying to light it on fire, etc etc

They are giving the choice what to do first; going after Yeenoghu right away could end the battle; but it would be almost suicide going straight for him for not only is he surrounded by his most powerful allies but his army would clammer towards him if he is attacked. Or they could try to pick off the outlying troops and gain a valuable NPC like a cleric that could heal wounds if they are rescued... this would deplete Yeenoghu's army and also he could send one of his bodyguards to help whoever they attack which would weaken his position for later..

[No brains]

It sounds like you aren't afraid to run complex encounters! Kudos to you and your party for your bravery!

If you want to be cruel, it sounds like your party might have some vulnerability in the Intelligence department. If you work this right, this doesn't just mean saves, but Investigation checks as well. If you're not afraid to throw anything at the party, consider modified Mind Flayer Arcanists, or maybe even Alhoons/ an Illithich (or whatever an Illithid-lich is abbreviated as). If you modify their spell lists so that they cast certain Illusion spells that call for Investigation checks like Major Image, it could hit your party where it hurts. Add extra confusion by having some of them ACTUALLY summon monsters, so it's not clear what's real. Not to mention, catching a Mind Blast can really suck, especially for a flying mount that is suddenly stunned.

If you would like to stick to your Gnoll/ demon theme, exploiting an Intelligence weakness gets a little harder. Barlguras can cast Phantasmal Force, but I think their DC of 13 might get shut out by Auras of Protection. Theoretically they could cast this while under Disguise Self to sow extra confusion, but being large, it's hard to think of a good thing for them to be disguised as. MAYBE they could pass as Firbolg commoners?

If you want to stretch just a little, you could add in an Arcanaloth. It's not technically a demon or chaotic evil, but its spells can be swapped to target Intelligence and it's easy to have it fit the theme by giving it a hyena head instead of a jackal's.

Off of attacking Int, some Babaus could put some pressure on the party by casting Heat Metal and then running to hide. Forcing (or even threatening) players to drop their weapons or shields could be distracting enough to make them disregard technically deadlier threats.

I could pitch more creature suggestions, but I'd like to know what books you use just so I don't start talking about something that's out of your repertoire. Good luck with your fight!

[Skrum]

An enemy that I would strongly recommend for your purposes is the Flindhttps://www.dndwiki.io/monsters/flind

These guys *do not* mess around. Solid hit chance with a +9, 3 attacks w/ cc built in, and the chance for some absolutely brutal hits (paralysis flail followed by pain flail. Use them in that order). Every time I've put them on the field the melee characters are sweating; just knowing the effects of the flails is enough to dial up the tension. Plus they have a nice little buff for other gnolls.

I also recommend adding some ranged threats, preferably spellcasters. I'm a big fan of the NPC warlock statblocks in Volo's Guide to Monsters - relatively low CR, but packing some serious spell power. A couple of CR 7 fiend warlocks, each with 4 5th level slots and spells like wall of fire, stinking cloud, and finger of death (1/day on that one), and a level 17 eldritch blast will force the characters to split very far apart to take them out.

If you use the warlocks though, I would change two things - 1) don't just bombard the party with save or suck effects. It's a lot more fun to face blasting spells; the tension goes up, but characters don't get removed from play for failing one save. Consider switching their 1/day feeblemind for cone of cold or chain lightning. 2) give the warlocks the repelling and agonizing blast invocations. It'll greatly improve their auto-attack option, and create some potentially cool moments when the players get shoved around.

===================

Your encounter right now is far too weighed towards melee attacks, and especially against a party of paladins that have high AC, the majority of the assembled enemies just aren't going to do anything. You def need ranged threats, and more melee threats that will be actual threats.

I would also consider some kind of environmental/terrain effect. Just off the top of my head, like maybe the ground is beginning to crack and fire/shadows/whatever is coming out, dealing area damage - they are facing a demonlord in the 5th round, so something that'll build tension to its arrival and do something to stop the players from just moving freely would be good. If you're playing on a digital map, this is an opportunity to have the map change as the rounds go on, which players always like.

Edit: just had another idea: as the battle starts, the skies darken and the players can feel a terrible, malevolent presence bearing down upon them. The howling of gnolls can be heard, coming from every direction. Wave 2, the ground begins to shake and cracks form; dark shadowstuff begins to pour out of the cracks, and a positively demonic howling laugh echoes forth. Each of the cracks generates a 10 ft radius of power that bolsters the gnolls, maximizing their damage rolls. But this is no benevolent power...some of the gnolls can't withstand the power, and explode! each round, roll randomly for a X number of gnolls to explode, dealing 8d6 necrotic damage in a 10 ft radius. Anyone caught in the blast can make a DC 18 Con save for half. The idea here is that now, the mooks are a threat again - even if they largely can't hit the players, they might explode at any second, making it really scary to have a bunch of them piled around.

Edit edit: but honestly, level 13. Literally throw anything at them. For the flind and the warlocks, adding 3 flinds and 3 warlocks to round 2 sounds totally fine. A couple of CR 13 beholders or one of the beholder variants in round 4, yeah, just add it. They're a party of 5 level 13s. They're the Justice League. Let them figure it out.

[da newt]

With the following your party is difficult to defeat in combat / a race to zero hp.

- have average ac of 22
- have average hp 110, 1 paladin is exception, 150hp(CON +5)
- regularly cast Find steed, then Fly on the steed, meaning flying paladins
- paladins have 2 attacks per turn, average +12 to hit and do on average 40 damage(mostly radiant) with their smites
- they regualry use dispel magic on their enemies
- optimised ranged fighter does 4 attacks per round, has +12 to-hit and does between 20 and 22 dmg per hit

And you didn't even mention their freakishly good saving throws (paladins), and they must be sporting some serious magic items too.

They have superior defenses and very good offense too (until they are out of smites that is), so you will need to challenge them in other ways. For example their AC and auras don't change the odds of a grapple - that's a skill check. Heat Metal gives zero foxes about your saves. Dispell magic on flying mounts = fall damage and prone - no regard for AC or Saves. Etc

Paladins are melee dependent. Eliminate their steeds/mobility and kite them. Ranged fighter is dependent on their sight and ranged weapon. Disarm them and blind them or limit LOS.


The other option of course is to set up an alternate win/lose condition for the encounter - it's not just my team vs your team combat, it's something more impactful like 'can you save the town's leaders from being kidnapped / killed?' Change the objective. Make them do something other than attack to 'win.'

[Witty Username]

A cultist type caster or two could add a bit to a wave, more of support casters like a healers to keep the waves fighting or disrupt movement.
The mind flayer archanist has a pretty good list as a example, but I would use other monsters or NPCs for theme reasons.

[HoboKnight]

I really appreciate all the input and I came up with a bit different approach. Let's see, how it works.

This encounter is gods meddling with fate. Yeenoghu has a plan: attack the village, destroy the statue, sacrifice the townsfolk on the ruins of the statue. Another god(Helm?) does not like the plan and will in fact notify a group of paladins that they are "needed" at a specific location. They will be tasked with teleporting to a specific location(what would be the coolest place, they could teleport to? the statue perhaps?). Such meddling is dangerous, but, yeah.

Yeenoghus' plan is as follows:
- send in 2 waves of attackers, subdue the village
- appear in the village
- sacrifice the villagers

But things go this way:
- first wave pops in, closely followed by the second
- paladins slay them
- Yeenoghu appears in the village, super-pissed by the results
- is killed himself, returns to Abyss
- since he is so powerful, he summons two more vaves which are several levels above what was initially planned (while cackling)

so, wave plan:
1st. wave: 12 gnolls, 12 dretches, 6x hyena, 3x hezrou
2nd wave: 3x marilith
3rd wave: 1x Yeenoghu himself
4th wave: big boys summoned: 12x gnoll, 6x Flind
5th wave: 12x gnoll, 3x Mind Flayer Arcanist, 5x Flind

Also I'll pin here a list of really cool suggested monsters:
Mind Flayer Arcanists,
Alhoon
Illithilich
Giant Hyena
Arcanaloth
Babau
Flind
Warlock of the Fiendd Volo's Guide to Monsters

I can refluff visually all of these into hyena-like creatures.

[JonBeowulf]

Nice... I think your group will remember this forever.

[No brains]

I'm happy to have helped! Let us know how this turns out!