Riddles as hints / foreshadowing rather than puzzles that must be solved

[Boci]

So a while back I had a dungeons players were going through. The this was a test, they were trying to win an audience with a reclusive race in the mountains, and this was how you did it. One room featured 3 doors (well 5, but 2 weren't available), above each of which was a riddle that hinted at the monster the would face inside.

The intention here isn't to "solve" the riddle, but to interpret it and glean hints. For the record, one should be easily recognised by anyone whose read the MM, another is related to a MM monster, but changed, though you might be able to tell which monster it is a variant of, and the last one is a splat monster from 3.5 I converted, and it wasn't particularly famous there, so you're unlikely to recognise that unless you remember 3.5.

So, your 8th level party is in a dungeon, faced with the following 3 doors:

1st door:
Savannah's tune, with fist of wood,
Don’t call me evil, but I’m no good.
Your will is weak, come dance with me,
But do beware, there’s much debris.
In this chamber, number can lie,
Beware a foe’s surprise ally,
For I’m a trickster, and not to be outdone,
A hundred is often worse than one.
Until that one becomes a horde,
Tricky to dispatch with sword.
And if I wish to wound you deep, a dark pact's power I'll invoke,
And you won't find in food or sleep, a remedy for wrath awoke.

2nd door:
Such beauty I behold, said the spider to the elf,
Then laughed a brutal laugh, for she was talking to herself.
The perfect handmaiden, dressed as she was born,
For no clothing could contain the shifting of her form.
A touch of foul divinity, warded flesh and mind,
She was well defended, and only if one combined,
A weapon crafted finely, with magic’s bold proclaim,
Could she be cut down and sent back whence she came.
And as for her gaze, be it one or two or eight,
Beware her will imposing, least she find a new mate.

3rd door:
I have 3 mouths, but only one can speak
And hurting me is no mean feat.
Lesser spells I turn aside,
Mundane iron won’t cut my hide.
But I’m not invincible, above all I fear,
the tip of a legendary hero’s spear.
Nor am I defenceless, behold:
Watch this prismatic show unfold.
And mind my bites, no poison in play,
Its simply my nature to make a mind sway.
My brother’s a great cat, he’s the better known,
But I can be the power behind the throne.

What would you expect from each monster, based on their "description"? Would there be one you'd be more likely to choose? What factors of party composition would weigh into this?

Also, for bonus points, the party was a genie patron warlock with pact of the tome and some decent offensive spells (blight, psychic lance), a hunter ranger (no magic weapon) and an empty palm monk. Which one do you think they choose? I'm wondering if there is an obvious choice here, or if they just happened to pick one.

[GeoffWatson]

Not sure about the first one, but I'd guess Drider or Yochol(not sure about spelling) for the 2nd and Rakshasa for the 3rd.

[NecessaryWeevil]

The first sounds like some sort of hag.

[Chronos]

The first is definitely some sort of fey, but beyond that I couldn't say.

The second is obviously a drider.

The third, I'm stumped. It mostly sounds like a rakshasha, but the "three mouths" part doesn't fit at all (and I'm having a hard time even envisioning a rakshasha variant for which it'd fit).

As for which of the three to pick, the hunter ranger would want the fey, because without a magic weapon, it doesn't sound like there's much he can do about the other two (unless he counts as a "legendary hero" and has a spear). But choosing to go up against a trickster fey is dangerous, without more and better information about precisely what it is or going to do. Overall for the party, the safest option is probably the drider, and it's just too bad that the ranger won't be able to do much.

[No brains]

I can't quite tell what's behind door 1, but I imagine it has some alternate form where it turns into a swarm. It might also have Irresistible Dance as an innate spell. I would guess this is the 3.5 splat creature. Maybe a swarmshifter or one of the variants on a Lamia. Though if it were a new monster, I'd imagine it might be something between a Dryand and Treant with some extra spells.

Door 2 is totally a Yochlol. It's the description of the 3 different number of eyes that gives it away. Driders and Drow rarely shapeshift.

Door 3 makes me think its something like a Chimera that's been re-tooled to be more like the original myth. Although it might also be some creature that has mouths on its hands or something like that.

I might pick the Yochlol just for the certainty of what it is. The poison mist form could be annoying, but a generous DM call could let Blight hit that extra hard since the creature's form basically becomes moisture to get removed by the spell. Though I feel like the party might have picked the first door just out of curiosity of what it could be.

[Tanarii]

{Scrubbed}

[KorvinStarmast]

For the record, one should be easily recognised by anyone whose read the MM, another is related to a MM monster, but changed, though you might be able to tell which monster it is a variant of The MM is typically a DM facing book, but yes, lots of folks browse the MM.

..and an empty palm monk. Open hand monk? :smallconfused:

The foreshadowing can be a good idea, particularly if the party/players have not encountered such a monster before.

[JonBeowulf]

Some people like puzzles in the game. I am not one of those people.

So it's very odd that I like your implementation of something I absolutely hate in the game. Perhaps because not solving the puzzle doesn't stop the players from doing the next thing. We can talk about it for a while and then if we can't figure it out, simply say, "I dunno... door 2?"

Few things ruin a session more than everyone just sitting there waiting for the DM to realize we're not going to do anything until we're bailed out.

[togapika]

3rd I honestly saw a beholder, though the lack of mouths is a thing

[Boci]

Not sure about the first one, but I'd guess Drider or Yochol(not sure about spelling) for the 2nd and Rakshasa for the 3rd.

Yeah Yochlol, and the 3rd is a rakshasa variant yes.


The first sounds like some sort of hag.

Hags aren't known for music and dancing, but something fey certainly.


3rd I honestly saw a beholder, though the lack of mouths is a thing

Yeah, I could see "prismatic show" hinting to that, and it does have a beholder like ability that randomly does an energy type damage, but its a rakshasa varient, not a beholder.


The first is definitely some sort of fey, but beyond that I couldn't say.

The second is obviously a drider.

The third, I'm stumped. It mostly sounds like a rakshasha, but the "three mouths" part doesn't fit at all (and I'm having a hard time even envisioning a rakshasha variant for which it'd fit).

As for which of the three to pick, the hunter ranger would want the fey, because without a magic weapon, it doesn't sound like there's much he can do about the other two (unless he counts as a "legendary hero" and has a spear). But choosing to go up against a trickster fey is dangerous, without more and better information about precisely what it is or going to do. Overall for the party, the safest option is probably the drider, and it's just too bad that the ranger won't be able to do much.

That's pretty much what the party thought. They quickly ruled out door 3, too difficult to hurt, then weren't sure on 1 or 2, eventually deciding to go for door 2, because 1 just seemed to have too many abilities. The ranger managed to contribute, they deal high damage, I crunched the numbers and they were dealing just over half of what the monk was dealing, and of course players wouldn't be counting damage that precisely. Besides the ranger ended up getting a very powerful weapon with narrative importance not long afterwards, so don't feel too bad for them.

Seneferu’s Legacy – Carved from the fang of an ancient blue dragon that knows the rage of a mother who saw her children slaughtered, this blade remembers it hatred for the jackal people of the desert. (Legendary, requires attunement)

Seneferu’s Legacy is a +1 longsword with the finessable quality when wielded in two hands in addition to the usual properties of such a weapon. Any hit with the weapon deals an additional 1d8 lightning damage. A 19 or 20 with Seneferu’s Legacy is a critical hit, and at the end of the struck creature’s next turn they suffer an additional 5d8 thunder damage.

Breath Weapon – The wielder of Seneferu’s Legacy can use an action to expel a 120ft line of lightning that deals 1d10 points of damage per character level. Half this damage is lightning, the other half is thunder. A successful dexterity save (DC: 8 + proficiency bonus + con modifiers).
Once the wielder has used this, they cannot use it again until they have taken a short or long rest.

Conjure Image – As a bonus action, the wielder of Seneferu’s Legacy can make an illusionary copy of themselves appear within 150ft range. This illusion is indistinguishable from themselves unless physically interacted with, and can move independent when directed to do so, and the wielder can choose whether they use their own senses or those of the duplicate. The wielder may also choose to use the illusion as the origin point of Seneferu’s breath weapon. If the illusion takes any damage it is immediately destroyed.
Maintaining this ability requires concentration. The duration is 1 minute, split as the wielder chooses between any number of activations. Once the full duration has been used, they cannot use this ability again until they have finished a long rest.

Draconic Magic: Once per long rest, the wielding of Seneferu’s Legacy can cast the following spells without need for any material components, each once:
Mirage Arcana, Hold Monster (up to 3 targets), Fly (duration 8 hours).
The DC is based off the wielder’s highest mental stat.

Draconic Knowledge: The soulshard of Seneferu remembers most of what she knew in life. She can relay memories to the wielder, and if she needs make a nature or arcane check her modifier is +11, and +4 for any other check that involves recalling information.


I can't quite tell what's behind door 1, but I imagine it has some alternate form where it turns into a swarm. It might also have Irresistible Dance as an innate spell. I would guess this is the 3.5 splat creature. Maybe a swarmshifter or one of the variants on a Lamia. Though if it were a new monster, I'd imagine it might be something between a Dryand and Treant with some extra spells.

Door 2 is totally a Yochlol. It's the description of the 3 different number of eyes that gives it away. Driders and Drow rarely shapeshift.

Door 3 makes me think its something like a Chimera that's been re-tooled to be more like the original myth. Although it might also be some creature that has mouths on its hands or something like that.

I might pick the Yochlol just for the certainty of what it is. The poison mist form could be annoying, but a generous DM call could let Blight hit that extra hard since the creature's form basically becomes moisture to get removed by the spell. Though I feel like the party might have picked the first door just out of curiosity of what it could be.

They were certainly tempted, but they concluded it had too many abilities, and so chose door 2. They were right, the riddle for door 1 does have a lot of abilities referenced, but most of them are actions so there was limited synergy as they only had 1 action. Definitely versatile though.

Good catch on the rakshasa for door 3, it does indeed have snakes for arms, hence the 3 mouths.


The MM is typically a DM facing book, but yes, lots of folks browse the MM.
Open hand monk? :smallconfused:

Right open hand, my bad.


Some people like puzzles in the game. I am not one of those people.

So it's very odd that I like your implementation of something I absolutely hate in the game. Perhaps because not solving the puzzle doesn't stop the players from doing the next thing. We can talk about it for a while and then if we can't figure it out, simply say, "I dunno... door 2?"

Few things ruin a session more than everyone just sitting there waiting for the DM to realize we're not going to do anything until we're bailed out.

Yeah that's the intention here, to have some riddles in a way that doesn't grind things to a halt if the party can't solve it.

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So my party chose door 2, posters here said door 2 was the safest or best bet, so was the challenge badly designed, if there was an obvious choice? Can you think of a party comp that would encourage choosing door 1 or 3 instead?

[Unoriginal]

So my party chose door 2, posters here said door 2 was the safest or best bet, so was the challenge badly designed, if there was an obvious choice? Can you think of a party comp that would encourage choosing door 1 or 3 instead?

There is no party comp that could encourage going into an encounter with less knowledge of what the encounter is.

Knowing what you're going to face is a rather overwhelming advantage, that could only be overshadowed if the encounter that is clearly identifiable is such a bad matchup that it's better taking a shot in the dark (Ex: figthting bunch of Rust Monsters when all the team is wearing metal armor and/or using metal melee weapons)

I wouldn't say the challenge is badly designed, it's just that you either want all the options to be equally identifiable OR equally unidentifiable but with the riddle giving equally strong hints about what the opponent can do.

[No brains]

So my party chose door 2, posters here said door 2 was the safest or best bet, so was the challenge badly designed, if there was an obvious choice? Can you think of a party comp that would encourage choosing door 1 or 3 instead?

I don't think your challenge was badly designed. I think it was a fun way to frame an inevitable combat. It built tension and played with imagination, two things D&D ought to be good at.

If you were curious if you could modulate it so that the PC might choose a monster other than the one they were most sure of, I have some ideas.

What you did is you let the PCs choose what level of risk they wanted to face. When they could not define the parameters of risk in two of the doors, they chose the only value they could define. I think perhaps one thing that might have been missing from the equation was an idea of differing reward among the monsters they could choose. All the doors led to an equal reward, so the challenge becomes choosing the safest/ most likely way forward. If one of the riddles had an implication that a monster had something lootable, it might have made another 'correct' door.

If you wanted to pique the player's curiosity into what was behind the other doors absent an implied reward, that may have worked out better in a typical dungeon rather than your trial setting. Ultimately this leans back to the idea of possible tangible rewards since the doors beyond the monster may have led somewhere nice, but that's not the whole of it. In this trial, there is the idea of the formality of not killing all of their host's trial monsters. In 'the wild', where there's no reason to leave a stone unturned, discovery can be its own reward. This is especially true if the PCs end up on their own time and are free to collect themselves for whatever perceived challenge they have to face.

So you could call those two ideas to 'improve' on your idea, but I still think you have a banger to begin with! Riddles are fun flavor and choosing the form of the destroyer is always a fun exercise.

My last thought is that maybe it was just an unfortunate coincidence that the easiest monster might have been the clearest monster too. I tend to think of Yochlols as a 'weak CR10'. It's really a coinflip whether I'd choose to fight a Yochlol or a CR8 Hezrou. MAYBE if the clearest monster was also the strongest monster, it would have it a harder choice, but that riddle almost read as 'cakewalk here' sign to me. Maybe we should have a riddle jam sometime to think up clear/obtuse riddles for monsters.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe we should have a riddle jam sometime to think up clear/obtuse riddles for monsters.

Neat idea, I'll start a thread about it.

[Boci]

I wouldn't say the challenge is badly designed, it's just that you either want all the options to be equally identifiable OR equally unidentifiable but with the riddle giving equally strong hints about what the opponent can do.

Worth noting, I don't think the party identified the creature as Yochlol. I'm pretty sure two players hadn't heard of it, they are new to the game, and the third knew it as that Lolth demon, I don't think they knew any stats or specific abilities, so I think the decision was based on the riddle, and not knowledge of the monster itself, for my 3 players at least.


What you did is you let the PCs choose what level of risk they wanted to face. When they could not define the parameters of risk in two of the doors, they chose the only value they could define. I think perhaps one thing that might have been missing from the equation was an idea of differing reward among the monsters they could choose. All the doors led to an equal reward, so the challenge becomes choosing the safest/ most likely way forward. If one of the riddles had an implication that a monster had something lootable, it might have made another 'correct' door.

If you wanted to pique the player's curiosity into what was behind the other doors absent an implied reward, that may have worked out better in a typical dungeon rather than your trial setting. Ultimately this leans back to the idea of possible tangible rewards since the doors beyond the monster may have led somewhere nice, but that's not the whole of it. In this trial, there is the idea of the formality of not killing all of their host's trial monsters. In 'the wild', where there's no reason to leave a stone unturned, discovery can be its own reward. This is especially true if the PCs end up on their own time and are free to collect themselves for whatever perceived challenge they have to face.

Those are some good ideas to consider, thank you. And yeah, they saw a map when they entered, it was faded, but they did see a dead end, which they decided to investigate, figuring there might be something valuable there. So yeah, adventurer curiosity and loot can be powerful motivators (and they were right, the ranger got his second favorite magical item in that dead end).


My last thought is that maybe it was just an unfortunate coincidence that the easiest monster might have been the clearest monster too. I tend to think of Yochlols as a 'weak CR10'. It's really a coinflip whether I'd choose to fight a Yochlol or a CR8 Hezrou. MAYBE if the clearest monster was also the strongest monster, it would have it a harder choice, but that riddle almost read as 'cakewalk here' sign to me.

Why is that? Because a lot of the riddle reference their shapeshifting ability, which is ultimately not that immediately relevant in a straight up fight?

[No brains]

Worth noting, I don't think the party identified the creature as Yochlol. I'm pretty sure two players hadn't heard of it, they are new to the game, and the third knew it as that Lolth demon, I don't think they knew any stats or specific abilities, so I think the decision was based on the riddle, and not knowledge of the monster itself, for my 3 players at least.
...
Why is that? Because a lot of the riddle reference their shapeshifting ability, which is ultimately not that immediately relevant in a straight up fight?

I made a mistake and assumed that your party picked a Yochlol based on knowledge of its behind-the-curve combat ability. Bad inference. Sorry.

I guess it's not impossible that the party thought they were in for an easy fight, since shape shifting into a spider isn't likely to give the monster too many weird and unexpected abilities. The riddle basically advertised the traits of spider-form, damage resistance, and some form of charm. A creature that's basically just a spider might have been interpreted as easy vs the three-headed beast and whatever the first creature was.

Though if you really think about it, any riddle that advertises that a Yochlol is a Yochlol severely gimps it. With powers like Detect Thoughts, Humanoid shapeshifting, and high deception, a Yochlol's biggest asset is that people don't know what it is right away. Even with decently good damage and a good escape button from Web-Walker and at-will Web, a Yochlol is going to be strongest when it can convince a party it's not a threat until it can lure the party into some ambush that favors the Yochlol.

In theory, if you did want to warn a party of a Yochlol using a riddle, the riddle may have to be so obtuse that it doesn't make it clear that the drow lady the party is going to meet is a monster at all. Something that can allude to the fact that something nearby isn't a drow, but perhaps in a way that undersells it danger. Consider this:

Whether seeing as one, or half, or four-
[Loosely alluding to the eyes of forms with confusing perspective-in riddle; four pairs of eyes in a party or on one spider head?]
A single maiden can hide much more.
[Teeing up that SOME lady in here is relevant]
She owes her grace to a standout elven god
Who blazed a trail that others scantly trod
[This leaves it ambiguous- these words could refer to Lolth or Elistraee, standouts in their (sub)pantheons]
Spare this blasphemer and you will see
A deity's grace delivered unto thee.
[A last bait and switch that could be read as getting an ally, but actually getting Lolth's 'gift' of betrayal]

It's up to the party to determine if such a riddle is intended as a hint or a warning.

All of this is not to say that I didn't like the riddle you wrote to describe the demon. I thought it was some evocative poetry.

[Boci]

Whether seeing as one, or half, or four-
[Loosely alluding to the eyes of forms with confusing perspective-in riddle; four pairs of eyes in a party or on one spider head?]
A single maiden can hide much more.
[Teeing up that SOME lady in here is relevant]
She owes her grace to a standout elven god
Who blazed a trail that others scantly trod
[This leaves it ambiguous- these words could refer to Lolth or Elistraee, standouts in their (sub)pantheons]
Spare this blasphemer and you will see
A deity's grace delivered unto thee.
[A last bait and switch that could be read as getting an ally, but actually getting Lolth's 'gift' of betrayal]

It's up to the party to determine if such a riddle is intended as a hint or a warning.

I like this. There's an obvious problem of whose saying the riddle, but it can still be relatively easily framed as a test, and yeah, this is a good way of introducing a yochlol adversary in its intended environment.

Certainly worth considering not to include a monster whose uses deception and subtlety as weapons against two monsters far happening to jump to the killing.