monks as skirmishers & Disengage

[tKUUNK]

In another thread it was mentioned that monks are skirmishers by design / theme, yet their middle of the road AC alone doesn't enable a skirmishing tactic.

In practice, Mobile is often viewed as a feat tax for an already ASI starved monk. With the Mobile feat a monk can skirmish without sacrificing damage from losing their bonus action to Disengage.

So what are folk's thoughts on handing monk either
1) an always-on Disengage trait
or
2) the part of the mobile feat stating that any enemy you've attacked cannot opportunity attack (OA) you that turn.
or
3) Spend ki to disengage without also burning the bonus action

I'm thinking this would be granted around monk level 3 to 5, somewhere in that range.

[RogueJK]

These would step on the toes of the Drunken Master's Drunken Technique. If you do decide to implement something like these, you'll need to give the Drunken Master an alternate feature.

With that in mind, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of all Monks having something similar to Drunken Technique, perhaps modeled on Ki-Fueled Attack. I don't think an outright free Disengage all the time or just copying the Mobile feat altogether are good options, but something more like "When you spend 1 or more Ki points as part of your Action or Bonus Action during your Turn, you gain the benefit of Disengage" could be more balanced.

3 could work, or perhaps something like adding Disengage as an alternative Martial Arts Bonus Action option at no Ki cost, where when they take the Attack action in a turn they can use a Bonus Action to either make an additional unarmed strike or take the Disengage action.

Basically, it'd need to have some sort of cost, either a Bonus Action or being tied to Ki usage.

[JackPhoenix]

Most subclasses already have features that support skirmisher playstyle:
Open Hand has Open Hand Technique to either push the enemy away or remove their reaction when they hit with FoB
Shadow has Shadow Step
Nobody plays Four Elements, but Fangs of the Fire Snake allow to attack with reach, avoiding OAs that way. And a bunch of other spells.
Kensei and Sun Soul have ranged attacks
Drunken Master has Drunken Technique
Astral Self has tentacles with reach

All monks have Stunning Strike, which removes enemy reactions.

Would free disengages be nice? Sure. Are they necessary? No, not really.

[J-H]

Monk disengage features can also come from the subclass, although they often cost ki. Over half of the subclasses have abilities that can be used to disengage safely, or increase the probability of doing so. It may not be optimal to use them in all situations, but they do exist.

Shadow monk: BA 60' teleport
Open Hand monk: Open hand technique, push someone away..
4e monk: Air punch an enemy away.
Dragon monk: Boosts Step of the Wind to give flight PB/LR so you want to use it more.
Drunken monk: Disengage w/ Flurry of Blows
Astral monk: 10' reach on unarmed strikes keeps you from needing to get into melee range for many enemies.

[LudicSavant]

In practice, Mobile is often viewed as a feat tax for an already ASI starved monk. With the Mobile feat a monk can skirmish without sacrificing damage from losing their bonus action to Disengage.

I generally recommend that folks don't take Mobile.

If you want to be a full kiting playstyle, just be an actual ranged Monk.

If you want to be a melee Monk, you want to get some extra payoff for getting into melee, and that doesn't mean giving up ASIs for feats that don't do much to help you kill, suppress, or absorb attacks from enemies. If you're not getting some extra payoff for getting into melee (such as threatening OAs, controlling space, protecting allies, etc), it often isn't worth it to actually get into melee. Spending an ASI (or race) on mobile means you're not taking an ASI (or race) that helps you get that extra battlefield presence.

You're already more mobile than most martials without this feat. You already have tools to help you disengage in a pinch -- not just Step of the Wind, but also Stunning Strike, and subclass abilities (e.g. you can't OA a person in Darkness, or if they're teleporting into shadows, or if they knocked you away and/or disabled your reactions on a flurry, etc. And some subclasses like Mercy and Long Death just plain grow into chonky bois after a bit).

If you're always feeling that your Monk constantly needs to run away, realize that taking Mobile might have increased that feeling relative to other builds because you're giving up features that would help you stand your ground better (or make it harder for your enemies to stand theirs, which is just as good).

What can you take instead of Mobile?
Well, here's a couple options.

There's Gunner (+1 Dex). You now basically have a greataxe as a Dex weapon you can swing 3 times (with KFA), that also can hit people from range. And you boosted the best stat in the game (Dex) and all attendant class features (almost all of them) while you were at it.

Want a different tack? There's also Fighting Initiate. If you wanna be a Monk that's fully unarmed from the get-go, a VHuman with the Unarmed Fighting Style is an option for Monks at tier 1. Being able to hit for 3d8+9 (more with subclass features, like a Mercy Monk's smite-like mechanic) is a serious threat at tier 1 -- outdamaging early PAM users and the like. Though you'll totally be a glass cannon in tier 1 if you go this route.

The style goes obsolete later, but Fighting Initiate conveniently allows you to swap which Fighting Style you have any time you gain an ASI, so it can just transform it into Blind-Fighting (helps any Monk take advantage of vision blockers, and is especially good for Shadow Monks) or Archery (good for ranged Monks) or whatever floats your boat.

Want some more ideas? Try Crusher, Sharpshooter, Elven Accuracy, Aberrant Dragonmark, Skill Expert (Perception), heck you could even just take Tough and pretend you have a d12 hit die instead of Mobile (though other stuff might be more valuable than Tough, even hp-wise).

There's also, you know, not being VHuman. There's tons of good races for Monks these days. Multiverse Bugbears are one of the best around. There's also stuff like Mountain Dwarf, Half-Drow, Half-Wood Elf, Half-Sun Elf, Shadar-Kai, Fairy, Aarakocra, Winged Tiefling, Eladrin, Astral Elf, Beasthide Shifter, Gem Dragonborn, Protector Aasimar, Simic Hybrid, Satyr, Ravenite Dragonborn, or Goliath.


Monk disengage features can also come from the subclass, although they often cost ki. Over half of the subclasses have abilities that can be used to disengage safely, or increase the probability of doing so. It may not be optimal to use them in all situations, but they do exist.

Shadow monk: BA 60' teleport
Open Hand monk: Open hand technique, push someone away..
4e monk: Air punch an enemy away.
Dragon monk: Boosts Step of the Wind to give flight PB/LR so you want to use it more.
Drunken monk: Disengage w/ Flurry of Blows
Astral monk: 10' reach on unarmed strikes keeps you from needing to get into melee range for many enemies.

Yeah. Mobile is IMHO better on some martials that aren't Monks.

[Unoriginal]

I think that making Step of the Winds cost a bonus action but no ki would be good for the Monk.

That way, the Monk gets to choose between 1extra attack, 2 extra attacks with a cost, extra movement, regular movement with Disengage, and subclass stuff.

It's not strictly *necessary* to have the Monk be a good skirmisher, but I think it would be nice.

[Luccan]

I am curious what a good AC is, particularly at low levels

[Unoriginal]

I am curious what a good AC is, particularly at low levels

About 18?

That's what a lvl 1 Fighter has with their starting equipment, provided they went for chain mail and shield.

[strangebloke]

In another thread it was mentioned that monks are skirmishers by design / theme, yet their middle of the road AC alone doesn't enable a skirmishing tactic.

In practice, Mobile is often viewed as a feat tax for an already ASI starved monk. With the Mobile feat a monk can skirmish without sacrificing damage from losing their bonus action to Disengage.

So what are folk's thoughts on handing monk either
1) an always-on Disengage trait
or
2) the part of the mobile feat stating that any enemy you've attacked cannot opportunity attack (OA) you that turn.
or
3) Spend ki to disengage without also burning the bonus action

I'm thinking this would be granted around monk level 3 to 5, somewhere in that range.

TECHNICALLY most monks have ways of mitigating OAs without using step of the wind. Drunk Monks get mobile. Open hand monks can shove an opponent and then run. Kenseis can use whips to evade OAs. Astral monks can punch with reach. 4elements and sun soul have ranged/reach abilities. Shadow monks can teleport, or have darkness around them that eliminates OAs.

So the idea that you have to take mobile just doesn't really make sense to begin with.

The problem with 'melee kiting' is larger than just needing mobile. The problem is not very easy to do relative to other forms of kiting like ranged kiting, without giving you anything more for your trouble. You have to deal with OAs AND have enough movement both to run TOWARD the enemy AND run AWAY. So to kite something like, say, a dire wolf, when you're 20 feet away, you need 75 feet of movement. That's a lot! Doable? Of course. You can wall-run up a tree, or hide behind a cleric's spirit guardians or whatever. But what's the upside? The reality is that if you are getting all your attacks + flurry of blows in as a monk, your damage is still not going to be great.

So.... this brings us back to Ludic's post. You need some kind of payoff for melee, to justify all that running around. The reality is that 5e generally doesn't give melee many advantages over range, and some of the best advantages are things you get by staying in melee like reaction attacks. But here are a few.

exploiting advantage you can only get in melee (via blindfighting, or prone enemies)
grappling people so that you can then throw them off a cliff
Stunning strike
Magic weapons like flametongues.

[LudicSavant]

I think that making Step of the Winds cost a bonus action but no ki would be good for the Monk. It would just lend them even more to being ranged characters, while leaving their core issues unaddressed.

[strangebloke]

It would just lend them even more to being ranged characters, while leaving their core issues unaddressed.

yep. I'd much rather buff flurry of blows or monk unarmed strikes in general.

[tKUUNK]

thanks all for the insightful perspective. Funny enough, I've never taken Mobile on a monk...and there have been times I've missed having it.

Especially useful were all the suggestions on NOT getting stuck in melee in the first place. And mitigating the mobility issue via subclass features. This thread has made me even more of an Open Hand fan.

I like the suggestion of giving every monk something like the Drunken Master's mobility feature, or Open Hand's reaction denial feature.

side note- I'm currently playing a lv5 kensei. Been thinking about leaning more into archery...this feedback is solidifying that choice.

[LudicSavant]

The important thing to understand is that "skirmisher" is not a party role. Mobility is good, but it's a facilitator for whatever your actual party role is, not the role itself.

[Skrum]

I am curious what a good AC is, particularly at low levels

For a character that plans on being in melee a lot?
1st: 18
5th: 21
8th: 23

Ideally, you have defensive reactions as well and aren't just relying on AC.

[LudicSavant]

I am curious what a good AC is, particularly at low levels

What you should be asking is what an overall good durability is, as AC is only one variable in a larger equation.

That said, the low level Monk is... also low on those other variables, like hit points or defensive features that work in melee (things like Deflect Missiles work better at range!)

[Damon_Tor]

I think that making Step of the Winds cost a bonus action but no ki would be good for the Monk.

That way, the Monk gets to choose between 1extra attack, 2 extra attacks with a cost, extra movement, regular movement with Disengage, and subclass stuff.

It's not strictly *necessary* to have the Monk be a good skirmisher, but I think it would be nice.

I'd rather they cost ki, but no bonus action. That way they're distinct from the rogue versions, and most importantly, works well with the rest of the monk class.

[verbatim]

If you want this to be worthwhile I think you need to increase the value proposition of melee over ranged, even moreso than Stunning Strike already provides.

One OneDND idea I've been toying around with is making Unarmed Attacks (i.e., not martial arts die, so Kensei can't put it on a longbow) become +0, +1, +2 magical weapons on the fighter extra attack or maybe cantrip leveling progression. A Melee DPS boost isn't very sexy but it accomplishes the design decision imo.

[LudicSavant]

If you want this to be worthwhile I think you need to increase the value proposition of melee over ranged, even moreso than Stunning Strike already provides. Meanwhile in OneD&D: "What if we made Stunning Strike less reliable in melee, then also made it work on ranged attacks?" :smallfrown:

[Witty Username]

Apart from step of the wind being undertoned, monks don't really have a mobility issue.

AC, HP, damage, and utility are all lacking.

Costing ki but not a bonus action would be fine, One's dash+disengage I think is sufficient on that end.

But the bigger issue is that their isn't really a reason to play a monk over any other class.
For example,
Ranged monk is an option but any class can take sharpshooter and most will have greater benefits to doing so, either by greater onboard ranged support, ways to get addional attacks in more consistent fashon or both.

[LudicSavant]

Apart from step of the wind being undertoned, monks don't really have a mobility issue. Exactly.


Ranged monk is an option but any class can take sharpshooter and most will have greater benefits to doing so, either by greater onboard ranged support, ways to get addional attacks in more consistent fashon or both.

Most? Barbarian doesn't, Rogue doesn't, the only martial class left after that is Fighter.

[Witty Username]

Most? Barbarian doesn't, Rogue doesn't, the only martial class left after that is Fighter.

And Ranger.

Rogue is strange because on the one hand it doesn't get value from sharpshooter, but is the only ranged class with Sharpshooter damage built into the class

[Unoriginal]

IMO where the Monk shines is being the disruptor.

Monks have enough mobility and weird abilities to hinder any tactics or plans the group's foes may want to try.

Squishy support tries to stay back and let their mooks hold off the PCs? It's hard to make oneself unreachable by the Monk.

Mooks try to overwhelm the PCs with numbers? Monk got enough attacks to deal with the ones ganging on them quickly then go help teammates.

One tough boss thinks they can take all the PCs by themselves? Monk will make that harder.

Etc, etc.

Monks are not the optimal class for damage, or defense, or straightforward white room scenarios, but few can rival them in throwing the right wrench in the opponents' gears.

[LudicSavant]

I consider the Monk's role to be a sort of disruptor torpedo, plus whatever role they get from their subclass. Shadow turns the whole party into a ninja strike team that can kill a lot of stuff before they even act. Mercy is pretty much the best martial healer. Both add additional layers of disruption (like no-save poison or KFA Silence/Darkness). Kensei is mostly just damage. Usually less burst than a Samurai, but is harder to kill and harder to evade (via full cover, hiding, or the like).

One of the big things about Monk is that they have more defenses against ranged threats than melee ones -- which is one of the main reasons they play so much better as an actual ranged character, using their mobility to avoid being in melee unless the enemy actually doesn't want them there (in which case they can easily switch ranges to start applying disadvantage or threatening stunning OAs or the like).

[Rerem115]

Can't speak for everyone, but our table has a tendency of treating OneD&D like a buffet of options from Tasha’s; keep the parts you like, and ignore the rest. And, one of the parts that we've had a lot of fun with is the change to grappling with regard to unarmed strikes.

That little change—initiating a grapple or shove with an unarmed strike instead of an opposed Athletics roll—really helps Monks double down on battlefield disruption. Drag people back to the party! Knock down the bruiser with a high Constitution and hold them there while everyone beats up on them! It gives you something other than Stunning Strike to rely on, and hey! They'll make opportunity attacks at disadvantage and have to spend extra movement to chase you if they're prone and you want to run away, too.

[Sorinth]

I do think Monks should get a "free" disengage not because it's necessary but simply because it makes it facilitates the style of play that many people want to play when they choose Monk as a class. And the free disengage doesn't even have to be a full disengage, simply having all OAs against the monk be at disadvantage could also work.

That said I think the best would be if it was part of a list of optional abilities that you get to pick from so that it doesn't guide you into any one particular play style. So for example say at level 2 or 3 you get a Fighting Style like feature where the options are a) The "free" disengage b) Can use Dex instead of Str for grapples c) Some sort of ranged option.

[da newt]

I'm not sure if this 'idea' deserves it's own thread, but while I'm drawn to the idea of a skirmisher it seems to be a pretty crappy niche in 5e when compared to other roles - tank, melee damage dealer, ranged damage dealer, controller, buff/debuff/support. Even if you do a great job at hitting and running, it seems to me that hitting from range is superior for damage and self preservation, and even if you are good at not being a target, then who in your party becomes the target? Likely someone more squishy or everyone gangs up on the tank making them a damage sponge ...

I love the idea, but can't reconcile it as a truly viable team player. What do y'all think?

[J-H]

In my high level campaign (Against the Idol of the Sun (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624426-Against-the-Idol-of-the-Sun-A-5e-high-level-campaign-log)), the party struggled when Ratel the monk was gone. At one point, one of my players referred to it as the party missing the "chaos factor."

The monk can get anywhere and attack anyone at any time.
When hasted, he could act as a one-man diversion, engage the enemy, and then literally outrun them.

[elyktsorb]

I've played Monks, with Mobile (usually when I'm trying to do multiclass shenanigans where I'm saving ki for more specific stuff) I've played Monks without Mobile. Oddly enough I've noticed that the extra 10ft of movement (likely because with multiclassing I delay the monks usual speed buffs), as well as being able to ignore difficult terrain when you dash, have been far more useful than the built in OA prevention in terms of impact. Yeah the OA prevention is nice, but it's also very 'eh'


I think Monks having slightly more hp would be more practical than an always on disengage feature.

[LudicSavant]

I think Monks having slightly more hp would be more practical than an always on disengage feature.

And better for the game, too. Eat a few blows before you leave, rather than just run away and let other people take the brunt of everything.

[Blatant Beast]

I generally recommend that folks don't take Mobile..

Mobile as a feat is generally useful. It is the Ford Ranger of feats, in that it has general utility: +10’ movement, coupled with very decent specialized options in negating Opportunity Attacks, and what I think is the best part of the ability: ignoring difficult terrain on a Dash.

Rogues and Monks can become one with the mighty neutrino….matter doesn’t matter to them…at least as far as that matter is difficult terrain. Go Speed Racer, Go!

Overtime, newer feat options have become available, but many of those options are very prescriptive in terms of character flavor.

Aberrant Dragon mark require you to be on Eberron, or receive special dispensation from your friendly, neighborhood DM. You are also a Freak.

Elven Accuracy requires you to be an Elf. Hope you are not playing in a D&D port of Talislanta.

Gunner requires there to be guns, and while guns are becoming more normalized in fantasy contexts, quite a few games just do not feature them.

Crusher is a very good feat for a monk, but the feat is in Tasha’s, and of the splatblooks, Tasha’s seems, (based off general internet chatter), to be the most maligned book of everything, with many people refusing to use the rules from the book.

[Hurrashane]

I wonder if changing deflect arrows to deflect blows would be a good change? Just changing it so you can reduce the damage from any attack with a reaction. Of course you'd still only be able to throw back ranged attacks. Would help their toughness without just giving them a hit die increase (though I wouldn't say no to that either).

[Unoriginal]

I wonder if changing deflect arrows to deflect blows would be a good change? Just changing it so you can reduce the damage from any attack with a reaction. Of course you'd still only be able to throw back ranged attacks. Would help their toughness without just giving them a hit die increase (though I wouldn't say no to that either).

That could be neat.

It's not like it's off-theme or that something in the game prevents it, either, Drunken Masters can full on redirect melee attacks.

There could be a progression going from Deflect Blows to Deflect Arrows to Deflect Magic Attacks.

Although I would be curious to try Deflect Arrows without it costing a reaction.

[LudicSavant]

Mobile as a feat is generally useful. It is the Ford Ranger of feats, in that it has general utility: +10’ movement, coupled with very decent specialized options in negating Opportunity Attacks, and what I think is the best part of the ability: ignoring difficult terrain on a Dash.

The question is whether these benefits are better than a race (in vhuman's case) or an ASI. Which in this case means being behind on Dexterity or skipping Sharpshooter or the like. Or in the case of a race, you could be flying, or have another 50-ish effective HP, or... etc.

And the thing is, you already have more tools than most martials to solve many of the problems that Mobile solves. Boosted jumps, wallrunning, running on liquids, bonus move speed, bonus action dash/dodge/disengage, and often more from your subclass (like teleporting on a Shadow Monk. Or using their scouting features to choose their engagements. Or disengaging for free if they can't see through Darkness).

Mobile also only ignores difficult terrain if you're already spending the resource for Step of the Wind, in which case it's often (though not always) overkill.

And you gave up Sharpshooter or something for it. Meaning that it needs to be generating a lot of consistent value to be "worth it."

Mobile's an okay feat, but it shouldn't be thought of as a Monk's indispensible go-to option -- especially if you're not thinking of it like that for other classes which arguably benefit more from the feat than Monk does.

[tKUUNK]

That could be neat.

It's not like it's off-theme or that something in the game prevents it, either, Drunken Masters can full on redirect melee attacks.

There could be a progression going from Deflect Blows to Deflect Arrows to Deflect Magic Attacks.

Although I would be curious to try Deflect Arrows without it costing a reaction.

Agreed.

If you take away the reaction cost for Deflect Arrows, you should probably limit it to once per turn. Then again IME it doesn't come up too often anyway so maybe I'm splitting hairs? For the other two versions I'd keep the reaction requirement so it's a meaningful player choice (not just another passive defense). I think that's what you intended anyway.

Progression-wise, I'd grant the Deflect Melee at lv8, and Deflect Magic around lv11-13.

[LudicSavant]

Progression-wise, I'd grant the Deflect Melee at lv8, and Deflect Magic around lv11-13.

More than Monks need improved defenses, I'd say they need less backloaded defenses. I'd like to see some durability added earlier in their progression, and some damage added later in it.

[Sorinth]

More than Monks need improved defenses, I'd say they need less backloaded defenses. I'd like to see some durability added earlier in their progression, and some damage added later in it.

Having seen Guidance/Resistance as a reaction from the UA and BG3s almost reaction like spellcasting as part of of skill checks, I'm warming to the idea of making Patient Defence a reaction instead of BA.

[Unoriginal]

Agreed.

If you take away the reaction cost for Deflect Arrows, you should probably limit it to once per turn. Then again IME it doesn't come up too often anyway so maybe I'm splitting hairs? For the other two versions I'd keep the reaction requirement so it's a meaningful player choice (not just another passive defense). I think that's what you intended anyway.

Progression-wise, I'd grant the Deflect Melee at lv8, and Deflect Magic around lv11-13.

I think it should be Deflect Melee at lvl 3, Deflect Arrows at 5 and Deflect Magic at 7-ish.

Or DMelee at 4, DA at 6 and DMagic at 8.

[Blatant Beast]

Mobile's an okay feat, but it shouldn't be thought of as a Monk's indispensible go-to option -- especially if you're not thinking of it like that for other classes which arguably benefit more from the feat than Monk does.

‘OK’ is my assessment as well. There are better options, but a new player, or someone whom doesn’t want to bow kite as a monk that selects Mobility has not made an irretrievable blunder.

I’ve been in more than a few Discord channels in which if Mobility and Monk are mentioned together, people act as if the character is a total loss…which is a bit extreme.