Mage slayer and minimum caster level

[ciopo]

Quotes from the simple RAW threads:

Q625

is it codified somewhere that spells also have a minimum caster level? specific situation is a 5th level cleric with mage slayer, can he cast/prepare 2nd or 3rd level spells?


A 625

No, a 5th-level cleric with the Mage Slayer feat (whose caster level is effectively one rather than five) cannot cast 2nd or 3rd-level spells.

The rule appears in the "Magic Overview" here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel).


You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

I have emboldened part of the quoted text for emphasis.

An example of how to use this rule appears on page 171 of the Player's Handbook v. 3.5 (2012). If you are 10th-level wizard, you can cast a Fireball spell to a range of 800 feet (that's 400 feet plus your caster level times 40 feet) for 10d6 Hit Points of damage (that's your caster level times 1d6 Hit Points). If you choose, you can cast a Fireball at a lower caster level, which reduces both the range of the spell and the damage that it deals. However, you can't choose to reduce one but not the other. You also can't cast a Fireball spell with a caster level lower than five, because this is the minimum caster level required for you to cast the spell at all.


Re 625:

You can't cast a spell at less than the minimum caster level you can cast it at. But the catch is, the rules never define what that minimum caster level is. To say that a 5th level cleric with Mage Slayer can't cast 3rd level spells, you have to first assume that a 5th level cleric with Mage Slayer can't cast 3rd level spells.


The rules don't define "minimum caster level" because the rules never use the term "minimum caster level." All the rules say about it is that you can't choose to reduce the caster level of a spell below the "minimum level" to cast a spell. By RAW, you can't cast a reduced below the minimum level spell if you made the choice for the reduction. It says nothing about when it is forced upon you without consent.

My own leaning was onto "can't cast those spells", for I vaguely remembered that was the rules, but I didn't remember where/ I wasn't sure if i was extrapolating from magic creation rules.

But I see there are some different opinions, so I would like to see some discussion, if anyone feels like to chime in :)

currently wondering: if a 3rd level cleric with mage slayers would be allowed to cast CLW/CMW, would they therefore heal for 1d8-1 / 2d8-1 ? or is "negative caster level" also "not a thing" it does feel "elegantly self contained" to me to treat it like any other penalty, and the easiest comparison is to the damage roll of anyone with a STR penalty, but this only works for spells where the CL is plugged in at a modifier, rather than "XdY dice of damage"

that said, I have some nebolous memory of having seen fireballs at less than 5d6 "somewhere", probably some published module, but my confidence on that is low.

So, yeah, I lean toward "can't cast those spell levels if oyu have less than that CL"

[Harrow]

that said, I have some nebolous memory of having seen fireballs at less than 5d6 "somewhere", probably some published module, but my confidence on that is low.

So, yeah, I lean toward "can't cast those spell levels if oyu have less than that CL"

If I had to bet, I'd say you're remembering how Artificers make magic items. They can make items by faking spell requirements, and can fake requirements of their Artificer level +2. So, for example, a 3rd level Artificer could pretend to cast Fireball when making a Scroll of Fireball, which normally requires a 5th level Wizard to cast it. (Well, presumably, at least. That kind of touches on the fact that the rules don't actually say "4th level Wizards can't cast 3rd level spells", it just doesn't give them an avenue to do so. But, strict RAW aside, I feel the intention is clear). The thing with faking the requirements, though, is that they explicitly use their own level for level-dependent effects, such as casting range and damage dice, even if that would be lower than the level normally needed to cast the spell. (Which, again, is never formally defined, but is often assumed to be "the level when a caster can cast it naturally"). If I recall correctly, the example is even a 3rd level Artificer making a scroll of Fireball that deals 3d6 damage.

[Doctor Despair]

Minimum caster level is notoriously undefined and varies from class to class and even character to character. I'd personally interpret it as "the lowest caster level wherein this particular character could gain the ability to cast the spell," so while wizards have a minimum caster level of 7 to cast summon monster IV, sublime chords have a minimum caster level of 2. This does mean artificers can go crazy when emulating spells, but artificer crafting is ill-conceived; what else is new?

A 3rd level cleric with Mage Slayer would cast it as caster level 0, I think, based on the wording of CLW:


When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5).

It doesn't say to add your caster level -- it says add 1 per [point of] your caster level. A notable difference is that, even if you have a negative caster level, you never add your caster level, so it's irrelevant. You don't have a positive integer for your caster level, so you don't add any +1s to your cure amount.

With regard to the fireballs doing less than 5d6... I'd imagine you saw a Warmage using Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell. There's an entire other debate to be had around whether Versatile Spellcaster allows you to ignore minimum caster limits to actually cast a spell, or whether Heighten Spell modifies the minimum caster level needed, but suffice to say that there is a body of evidence suggesting that a level 3 Warmage with both those feats effectively can spend two of their level 2 spellslots to cast one fireball at CL 3.

With that said, depending on how you read minimum caster level, using Heroics to give the enemy caster Mage Slayer is kind of a hilariously unintended debuff.


If I had to bet, I'd say you're remembering how Artificers make magic items. They can make items by faking spell requirements, and can fake requirements of their Artificer level +2.

Oh yeah, there's another good example for a spell below its standard minimum caster level. I memory holed that part of their crafting.


For purposes of meeting item prerequisites, an artificer's effective caster level equals his artificer level +2. If the item duplicates a spell effect, however, it uses the artificer's actual level as its caster level. Costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the artificer's actual level (if it is higher). Thus, a 3rd-level artificer can make a scroll of fireball, since the minimum caster level for fireball is 5th. He pays the normal cost for making such a scroll with a caster level of 5th: 5 × 3 × 12.5 = 187 gp and 5 sp, plus 15 XP. But the scroll's actual caster level is only 3rd, and it produces a weak fireball that deals only 3d6 points of damage.

[glass]

We all know that the rules refer to a minimum level to cast a spell but do not define what that minimum level actually is. So, if we are going to apply the rule we are told to apply, we need to derive a sensible minimum...somehow.

My take: There are basically two approaches I can think of to determining the minimum caster level, universal or character-specific.

By the latter, I mean looking at the individual character's caster level when they can first cast spells of that level - so a fifth-level cleric that just got Cure Serious Wounds cast it at a caster level of 5, and cannot reduce it. As he goes up in levels, his maximum caster level for that spell goes up but his minimum remains 5. However, an ur-priest could potentially (depending on his level in other classes) cast it at CL 3. Which hopefully illustrates the problem with trying to come up with a universal CL limit - it would basically have to be one, which would be no limitation at all!

Therefore, I think the character-specific approach must be the correct one. Which in turn means CL penalties like those from Mageslayer do not impact which spell levels the character can cast. Because the minimum is always derived from the when that character gains the spells. If a ninth-level wizard has Mage Slayer, then he is CL 5 when he gains fifth level spells, so that is his minimum. It is lower than other Wizards' minima, but we cannot say that is too low in absolute terms because an Ur-Priest could do the same thing.

The only exception I would make is that if your CR is reduced to zero or below for a particular spell, you cannot cast it. I am not sure this last bit has any particular RAW backing, but it introduces too many headaches!

[Troacctid]

That kind of touches on the fact that the rules don't actually say "4th level Wizards can't cast 3rd level spells", it just doesn't give them an avenue to do so.
It does say that, actually, it's just tucked away in somewhat obscure parts of the PHB rather than being part of the spellcasting rules proper. For example, under the rules for ability scores, the PHB notes that "In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level."


Minimum caster level is notoriously undefined and varies from class to class and even character to character.
We all know that the rules refer to a minimum level to cast a spell but do not define what that minimum level actually is. So, if we are going to apply the rule we are told to apply, we need to derive a sensible minimum...somehow.
This is a myth too. Minimum caster levels for all spell levels for all of the core classes are defined in the core books. You can find them in the magic item creation rules in the DMG—again, hidden in an obscure place, but most definitely canon. SRD link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingScrolls

[Doctor Despair]

It does say that, actually, it's just tucked away in somewhat obscure parts of the PHB rather than being part of the spellcasting rules proper. For example, under the rules for ability scores, the PHB notes that "In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level."

Class level, not minimum caster level -- not that I'm arguing you don't need the minimum caster level to cast something.



This is a myth too. Minimum caster levels for all spell levels for all of the core classes are defined in the core books. You can find them in the magic item creation rules in the DMG—again, hidden in an obscure place, but most definitely canon. SRD link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingScrolls

Alright, let's examine exactly what it says on that page.


A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

This doesn't define what minimum caster level is, or how it interacts with different spells getting access to spells at different caster levels.


Prices assume that the potion was made at the minimum caster level.

Costs assume that the creator makes the potion at the minimum caster level.

Prices assume that the scroll was made at the minimum caster level.

Costs assume that the creator makes the scroll at the minimum caster level.

Prices assume that the wand was made at the minimum caster level.

Costs assume that the creator makes the wand at the minimum caster level.

Again, no definition given that I can see.

With that said, I do recall, as you said, that there was a page with minimum caster levels given for some specific sorc/wizard spells in the DMG. However, was it the minimum caster level for the spells for ALL classes? Or just for sorc/wiz?


A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. For example, a 15th-level wizard could craft a wand of fireball at 10th caster level, or even as low as 5th level (the minimum caster level for fireball, a 3rd-level spell), but no lower. If she did this, the fireball would in all ways be treated as if the caster was of the lower specified level (for damage, range, and so on).

I didn't find the table I thought I remembered, but this does seem to claim fireball has a minimum caster level of 5 with no mention of it applying only to wizards. With that said, it is in the context of a wizard crafting an item, and for the wizard, the minimum caster level is 5, so that's not necessarily a lynchpin with which we can conclusively say "Ah, fireball's minimum caster level is 5 no matter what class is accessing it!" Of course, fireball is also an odd corner-case because I don't believe there IS a class that can access it at a caster level lower than 5 off the top of my head.

Naturally, they made it a pillar of their design philosophy not to give fireball out to anyone with accelerated casting trees to make sure this DMG statement was never inaccurate.

Again, to reiterate, I think the most sensible reading of minimum caster level is "the caster level at which your class would normally give you access to the spell." However, I have no illusions that this is written down anywhere. At best, as far as I know, we have some tables for a few specific spells (the location of which I can't remember) which states that those spells have X minimum caster level in some cases, from which we might try to infer a working definition (as I have done above), but still no hard and fast definition.

[Troacctid]

This doesn't define what minimum caster level is, or how it interacts with different spells getting access to spells at different caster levels.

Again, no definition given that I can see.
It doesn't tell you how to determine minimum caster level, but it does give you the minimum CL values for all of the core classes at all spell levels in table form. I'm just saying, it's not a mystery. In lot of these discussions, people are all like, "Oh, what's the minimum CL a wizard can cast delayed blast fireball, the rules say there's a minimum but they don't say what the minimum is, we just don't know!" But we do know—it's explicit in the DMG that a wizard's minimums for each spell level are 1/1/3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17 respectively.

[Darg]

This doesn't define what minimum caster level is, or how it interacts with different spells getting access to spells at different caster levels.

I think it does. The real obstacle to understanding is that the rules use "caster" "level" just as it also uses the mechanical term "caster level." The rules do a really really poor job of reserving terms specifically for their mechanical implications. Another egregious example of this is the use of "power" in the psionic rules. It allows people to think that psionic powers are psi-like ability powers. Doesn't make sense, but when the rules don't make the effort to differentiate the meanings of a word it confuses people because language can be pretty imprecise even when you try to make it be.

[Zanos]

I think it's pretty clear that the game does define minimum level to cast a spell in class tables. I always thought it was more interesting if not being able to choose to cast a spell below the minimum meant you couldn't do it at all. A fifth level cleric with mage slayer isn't choosing to cast magic circle against evil below the minimum caster level, his caster level is just below when he would normally be able to access the spell. Does that prevent him from casting it? I don't think so. The cleric in that case isn't engaging with those rules at all, because he isn't willingly lowering his caster level. The rules are mute on whether or not, for example, a 5th level wizard with 2 3rd level slots who takes 1 negative level can still cast fireball. That seems like an important callout that wasn't made, so I generally play with the rule that you can only willingly drop your minimum CL to the level your class can access the spell, but other effects reducing your CL don't prevent you from casting spells.

[Darg]

I think that's completely fair. Though I think it's also fair to say that choosing to take a feat can constitute as choosing to lower your caster level. Then again that argument would have problems when coming up against the wild mage. It's probably most likely that your minimum caster level only matters when you have the option to lower your caster level in the specific instance of casting a spell, not the ability to cast a spell. As mentioned, negative levels don't mention loss of casting ability at all, even when your caster level is lower than your class' needs to cast spells of a particular level. It'd be kind of a really important detail to leave out, especially as you naturally get more spell slots than caster levels to lose.

[Gruftzwerg]

I think it's pretty clear that the game does define minimum level to cast a spell in class tables.
I fully agree that the class tables set the minimum caster level for each class separately (e.g Sorc/Wiz).



It says nothing about when it is forced upon you without consent.


But Mage Slayer doesn't force "the choice" on you. It just indirectly leaves you with invalid choices/options by reducing your caster level.

[glass]

This is a myth too. Minimum caster levels for all spell levels for all of the core classes are defined in the core books. You can find them in the magic item creation rules in the DMG—again, hidden in an obscure place, but most definitely canon. SRD link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingScrollsInteresting. As Doctor Despair says, there is no explicit definition there, just an implied definition from a table of examples. That's not strong, but as implications are all we have to work with we have to give it at least some weight. OTOH, we know that the minima for item creation are based on the minima for actual casting, but not always identical for them. For example, persistent mage armour* takes up a seventh level slot but is still a first level spell and presumably has a minimum CL of 1, but if you wanted to make a scroll of it it would count (and be priced per the linked tables) as a seventh level spell with a minimum CL of 13.

Anyway, I thought about it from another angle while I was at the gym this morning: A fifth level wizard with Mageslayer and Practiced Spellcaster has a caster level of 5, just like a wizard with neither of those feats. If Mageslayer took away the ability to cast 2nd and 3rd level spells, Practiced Spellcaster would explicitly not give it back. Which would clearly be ridiculous! Not that RAW cannot be ridiculous, but IMNSHO only when the ridiculous interpretations are the only ones available, and given the metamagic precedent I do not believe that is the case here.

That said, I would be amenable to the idea that if penalties mean you cannot match the standard minimum for you class you cannot make items based on that spell. Again, following the metamagic precedent: With sufficient flange to avoid the slot level adjustment, a low** level caster can potentially Persist a first level spell, but you still need to be 13th level to make a scroll of it.

* Not sure you can actually Persist mage armour, but the specific example is not really the point so I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy worrying about it. Feel free to substitute an alternative example.
** Similarly, I'm not sure exactly what level you can start ignoring the slot level adjustment on Persistent Spell, but I am pretty sure it is well below 13th!

[Harrow]

This thread has got me thinking, does the minimum caster level thing break the Earth Spell feat when using your highest level slots and/or metamagic reduction? That makes a Heightened spell count as an additional level higher. But, the feat makes no provisions for casting spells of a higher spell level when you don't meet the caster level minimum to cast such a spell. The feat also raises caster level, which should mitigate the problem somewhat, but only on a 1 caster level per spell level basis. I don't recall off the top of my head all the tricks used, but this may actually be a problem for the Killer Gnome Shadowcraft Mage build and stop it from working (at the top end, at least).

[Darg]

Interesting. As Doctor Despair says, there is no explicit definition there, just an implied definition from a table of examples. That's not strong, but as implications are all we have to work with we have to give it at least some weight. OTOH, we know that the minima for item creation are based on the minima for actual casting, but not always identical for them. For example, persistent mage armour* takes up a seventh level slot but is still a first level spell and presumably has a minimum CL of 1, but if you wanted to make a scroll of it it would count (and be priced per the linked tables) as a seventh level spell with a minimum CL of 13.

I disagree with the metamagic statement. For purposes of preparation and casting a metamagic spell operates at the modified level. Determining caster level is one of the things you do when casting and thus you must use the modified level to determine the minimum caster level you can go. Where the rules are unclear is how something like DMM or cost reduction works. Is the modified level equivalent to the slot used or are the modified level and spell slot requirements separate factors similar to class level and caster level?

[St Fan]

Just to add my grain of salt, about the argument "the rules don't define what happen if you try to cast a spell with a lower caster level than the minimum", there is at least one that can be invoked:



If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.


Having an insufficient caster level can easily be considered as a one of the possible "conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform", and thus mean the spell would fail.

As I pointed out in the Simple RAW thread, though, a reduction in caster level doesn't prevent you from preparing some spells (this is dependent from class levels, as Troacctid pointed out), even if you'd have problems casting them afterward.

This distinction can matter, notably for Reserve feats.

[ciopo]

Do I remember correctly that we can prepare a 1st level spell in a 2nd/3rd level slot? I'm fairly sure but not 100% sure that this is the case, and that for some reason spontaneous casters get the shaft on this, as usual

[Darg]

Do I remember correctly that we can prepare a 1st level spell in a 2nd/3rd level slot? I'm fairly sure but not 100% sure that this is the case, and that for some reason spontaneous casters get the shaft on this, as usual

You can prep spells using higher levels slots and cast them from higher level spell slots if spontaneous.


A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell.

The sorcerer and bard have spell slots. They just get the option to spontaneously fill their slots as they cast from them.