class combo duskpblade(PHB 2) +magus(pathfinder 1.0) is it fun?

[techpriest35]

so i was looking at the duskblade from player's handbook 2 and the magus from pathfinder 1.0 and i was noticing they have very similar class abilities such as delivering touch spells through weapons casting spells in medium armor and heavy shields. due to the similarities i thought it might be fun.was curious since both classes have the same armor restrictions would you as a dm allow duskblade spells and magus spells to be on the same list?has any one done this combo and did they have fun?

[Crake]

Because, as you noted, they’re so similar, the issued youd run into multiclassing them is that youd pick up much of the same stuff twice, and not get much out of it as a result.

[quetzalcoatl5]

I think the duskblade spells would offer a lot for a magus! There are a lot of really efficient action economy spells on that list and the better casting ability of the magus would play very nicely with it!

[Kurald Galain]

would you as a dm allow duskblade spells and magus spells to be on the same list?
Sure. The duskblade's spell list is very short, it has decent single-target damage spells, some rather bad spells, and very little else; so it benefits a lot from getting Magus spells.
The Magus list is very long, one of the best 6-level caster lists, and a near match for the wizard's in terms of versatility; so there's basically nothing on the duskblade list that he needs or wants.

Bear in mind that duskblade can cast a spell while full attacking once or twice per day whereas the Magus can do that every single round (and in addition to spending a swift on Pool Enchant or his arcana).

Why yes, Magus blows duskblade out of the water :smallbiggrin:

[quetzalcoatl5]

Sure. Bear in mind that duskblade can cast a spell while full attacking once or twice per day whereas the Magus can do that every single round (and in addition to spending a swift on Pool Enchant or his arcana).

Uh, where are you getting that? I see nothing restricting the number of times besides their spell slots and duskblades get a lot of spell slots. I mean, I agree that the magus is a better class, but we don't need to make the duskblade sound worse. It's a pretty good example of more advanced late stage 3.X design. The only thing I could imagine regarding a restriction of channeling is you're thinking of the spell sword or maybe the ordained champion, both of which get more limited use versions of it.

[liquidformat]

Uh, where are you getting that? I see nothing restricting the number of times besides their spell slots and duskblades get a lot of spell slots. I mean, I agree that the magus is a better class, but we don't need to make the duskblade sound worse. It's a pretty good example of more advanced late stage 3.X design. The only thing I could imagine regarding a restriction of channeling is you're thinking of the spell sword or maybe the ordained champion, both of which get more limited use versions of it.

pretty sure Kurald Galain is comparing Spell Combat and Quick cast and not Spellstrike and Arcane Channeling; either way the magus comes out better than the duskblade with each ability.

[Kurald Galain]

pretty sure Kurald Galain is comparing Spell Combat and Quick cast

You are correct.

Spell Combat is all day every day starting from level one; Quick Cast does the same thing and is once per day at level five, twice per day at level ten, etc.

[quetzalcoatl5]

Apologies for misunderstanding. I assumed you were talking about the Duskblades ability to full attack, since that's the action you referenced, not their ability to swift cast.

[Crake]

You are correct.

Spell Combat is all day every day starting from level one; Quick Cast does the same thing and is once per day at level five, twice per day at level ten, etc.

I mean, theyre not REALLY the same thing. They CAN have the same outcome, but not always. Being able to cast spells as a swift action can be useful outside of attacking situations, for example, being able to swift cast expeditious retreat and then double move to catch up to a fleeing enemy, or a friend whos in trouble.

Its not really fair to call them “exactly the same”. Like, yes, spell combat will get far more use, but there are times when swift casting can do something that spell combat simply could not do.

[quetzalcoatl5]

I mean if I was playing a 3.P table where both were options, I would pick Magus 7 out of 10 times, and 2 of the remaining 3 would be if I plan to use the Duskblade as a martial base to multiclass with a full caster and Prestige out (like a Duskblade 3, Wizard 4, Spell Sword 1, Abjurant Champion 5, Sacred Exorcist 7). But even though the Magus has a much more robust set of class features and a better spell list, the Duskblade still gets a bunch of bonus spell like abilities, a limited ability to cast a spell as a Swift action, a lot of low level spell slots, a spell list with a lot of swift action casting spells, full BAB, free Combat Casting, and a great list of proficiencies!

The base class really benefits from things that can expand its spell list and spells known, so things like the Bloodline feat from the Dragon Compendium are very nice when allowed. I would be fascinated to try a Duskblade that was given the much more versatile spell list of a Magus.

Pathfinder 1e nailed Gish base class design, hell I wrote a massive thread covering every Paizo class last year ( https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1560854462356406272.html ...forgive the numerous typos. It was typed out on my phone for Twitter so no correcting after the fact), but there are definitely some good offerings from WotC that have their place.

[techpriest35]

Sure. The duskblade's spell list is very short, it has decent single-target damage spells, some rather bad spells, and very little else; so it benefits a lot from getting Magus spells.
The Magus list is very long, one of the best 6-level caster lists, and a near match for the wizard's in terms of versatility; so there's basically nothing on the duskblade list that he needs or wants.

Bear in mind that duskblade can cast a spell while full attacking once or twice per day whereas the Magus can do that every single round (and in addition to spending a swift on Pool Enchant or his arcana).

Why yes, Magus blows duskblade out of the water :smallbiggrin:
i saw nothing in the players handbook 2 that limits the duskblade in this way. they have the same swift action ability as the magus as long as the duskblade spell had a casting time of 1 standard action or less.

[techpriest35]

if i was keeping the theme which classes would be best for cross classing from magus or duskblade they both look like a fun concept is there any class that lets you cast spells in heavy armor and tower shields?all the classes that let you cast while in armor that i have seen stop at medium and heavy shields

[quetzalcoatl5]

if i was keeping the theme which classes would be best for cross classing from magus or duskblade they both look like a fun concept is there any class that lets you cast spells in heavy armor and tower shields?all the classes that let you cast while in armor that i have seen stop at medium and heavy shields

Duskblade gets proficiency in heavy armor, so all they need is to take Battle Caster and they can wear it... You would need to dip or take another feat for tower shields though.

[Zancloufer]

While the Magus is probably better than the Duskblade, that comes from having more abilities than their abilities being better.

First; Duskblade quick cast vs Magus Spell combat. The Duskblade gains the ability to spontaneously quicken their spells 1-4 times per day. The Magus can essentially preform Two Weapon Fighting with one of the "Weapons" being a spell. The Magus cannot use this outside of a full round action, cannot use two weapons or a two handed weapon and must preform this as an attack with a -2 to hit on all rolls. Yes it's "at will" but IMHO it's no where near as powerful or flexible. Duskblade can still use Two-handed weapons or shields while the Magus cannot if they want to leverage this ability.

Second; Arcane Channeling vs Spellstrike. This one does start out stronger for the Magus because they gain it earlier. However the Duskblade does gain an upgrade at 13th level that lets them apply the single spell they cast to apply to ALL their attacks. This is especially silly when you realize things like Polar Ray and Disintegrate are level 5 touch spells for them. I don't know about you but a potential +78d6 or +156d6 added to a full attack is kind of silly.

Also the Duskblade does have more spells per day and doesn't need to prepare ahead of time. Magus is probably the better class overall but I would argue that is more from breadth of abilities than the actually power of them. Though so much of the Magus' extra abilities are tied to a tiny pool of daily points they use. . .

[Gnaeus]

Second; Arcane Channeling vs Spellstrike. This one does start out stronger for the Magus because they gain it earlier. However the Duskblade does gain an upgrade at 13th level that lets them apply the single spell they cast to apply to ALL their attacks. This is especially silly when you realize things like Polar Ray and Disintegrate are level 5 touch spells for them. I don't know about you but a potential +78d6 or +156d6 added to a full attack is kind of silly.

I agree, but I think we mean different things by silly. You mean OP. I mean its a happy meal toy for children who don't realize that they just ate a bunch of lard and corn syrup. The ability to do a giant pile of damage on a full attack is something a barbarian can do without breaking tier 4. They can do it more often, and they can move and then do it. Technically, I could point out that duskblade can't do it with polar ray or disintegrate until 17. But I'll admit thats a distinction without a difference. You can absolutely do enough damage to kill your target in touch range a handful of times per day + # of pearls of power as a duskblade. Magus gets more of everything a caster cares about. More spells known. More high level spells per day (at 13, Duskblade has more 1-3, Magus has more 4 and can actually cast 5). Twice as many spells known if he doesn't bother learning more. Better movement spells, BFC, defenses and utility. Metamagic or item creation feats for free and magus arcana as a cherry. And can still pretty much ruin an enemy's day if it is foolish enough to let the magus full attack+cast.

Duskblade is a better barbarian. And honestly, not even a better barbarian because of 156 d6. Thats a marginal ability. Once target falls, the level of overkill doesn't change much. Its a better barbarian because it has a few solutions to problems that aren't "hit it with a melee weapon." Even if most of those solutions boil down to "cast a ranged attack spell", thats still a +. Magus is to duskblade as a transmutation specialist wizard is to an evocation wizard with bad choices in banned schools. High op play is not about how many d6s you can roll in a melee attack.