Baldur's Gate 3 II: The Urge for a Second Playthrough [Archive]

Zevox

2023-10-03, 05:16 PM

Well, first thread's on page 51, and nobody else has made this yet, so here we go.

I think I've encountered a potential bug? In act 1, doing the "investigate the beach" quest.
So, I didn't know this could be a quest, because my first time through I did not go down to this beach until after multiple long rests, so when I got there the Harpies attacked me as soon as I got near the cliffs, and the kid was already dead over on their island. Nice to be able to save him this time... except the quest tells me to talk to him after, and I seemingly can't. No conversation will start, he'll just have phrases like "Leave me alone," "No," or "No time to talk" appear over his head when I try. I thought maybe the game was thinking he was still charmed by the Harpies and re-did the fight a couple of times to make sure he wasn't in that state at the end of the fight, but that didn't change anyway. Anyone know anything about this by any chance?

Edit: And nevermind I guess, the quest just randomly completed itself, saying the kid left the beach safely. Weird.

Nearing the end of act 1. Still super annoyed with the controls.

Is there a better way to navigate the party around hazards, other than going into turn-based mode and maneuvering every character through them by themselves? Because I'm in the Underdark, it's full of toxic and explosive things and it's super annoying to spend 3/4 of my playtime in TB mode trying not to step on super obvious traps that area already discovered.
In my experience: toss fire cantrips at the explosive mushrooms to get rid of them, and go around the gas vents, which are only really a few near the start of the area and don't block anything anyway. I honestly didn't find those things to be a problem, personally. I had to use turn-based mode to get around all the vents in the
Hag's lair,
But that's a very different situation with a lot more of them and no route to just avoid them. Although there is one part of the Underdark where automatically shooting the explosive mushrooms will kill an NPC and cost you a quest, but you should probably know it when you see it.

Psyren

2023-10-03, 09:39 PM

Ah, that new thread smell.... wait, why does it smell like tadpole? :smalleek:

Speaking of threads, I wanted to pick one up from the previous... well, thread:

As a side note, I kind of get the feeling Wyll's a warlock because his dad's view on how you become a hero discouraged him from pursuing paladinhood. Because despite his glory seeking he'd have made a pretty damn good paladin, but instead ended up taking a shortcut he stumbled across

Another thing I forgot to bring up on this topic is that nearly all the Tadpole Crew were canonically higher level prior to getting wormed. Wyll mentions this explicitly in some banter with Gale:

WYLL: Was a time I tussled with hill giants without breaking a sweat. Now, a mere werebear could swat me halfway to Amn.
GALE: Strange things are happening to us. What festers in our minds may well impel our bodies.

EDIT: There was another line too:

Wyll: Before I was infected, I could even call on hellbeasts, and summon festering clouds.

Given Wyll's youth - again, being in his late teens when he became Blade of Frontiers - he was very likely seeking to become a hero quickly. (Given what I know of his pre-BG3 backstory and how he met Mizora, it's sort of understandable that he would want the fast track.) So I can understand why the longer route of squiring in some traditional temple before eventually swearing a Paladin Oath might have been unappealing.

...

As a second topic, my Durge playthrough is underway, and I'm joyously using mods this time. Here's my current list from BG3 Mod Manager:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/945934606056685591/1158515416067473468/image.png?ex=651dd88f&is=651c870f&hm=da4143f63b4c8246497ce39de0cef511a22da4d8fc20d34 6e93354b3edec7d50&

In addition to these I also added in Overexplained Interactions (the one that previews the DCs and approval changes from dialogue - this one also reveals which ones can break Paladin Oaths or start/end romances), as well as No Party Limit, with which I'm about to roll with the entire squad up to the goblin camp.

Keltest

2023-10-03, 09:42 PM

Psyren

2023-10-03, 09:54 PM

I haven't actually thought to look at this before, but does anyone know if, when you earn XP, you get a flat amount that is split among your party, or does every character just get 20 or however much a dead goblin is worth?

I'm pretty sure it's the latter (every character gets a fixed amount from kills and milestones.) At the very least, running around with 7 party members doesn't seem to be slowing my progression any, or resulting in weird XP totals.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-03, 10:10 PM

All XP is split equally amongst all party members, recruited or not, unless you instal a mod that changes this. Except for Shadowheart, she seems to lag slightly behind the rest of the party.

I'm thinking of sending Wyll into either Ranger or Rogue for a level to nab Sleight of Hand proficiency. Not until level 6, but the lack of it is very slightly annoying.

Psyren

2023-10-03, 10:21 PM

Even without mods, I never had anyone lag behind. Everyone leveled up at the same time, including the folks left behind in camp. I was on story difficulty for my first playthrough though, so maybe that had something to do with it?

I'm thinking of sending Wyll into either Ranger or Rogue for a level to nab Sleight of Hand proficiency. Not until level 6, but the lack of it is very slightly annoying.

Having to deal with so few proficiencies, and unchangeable to boot, was indeed annoying. Two of the ones on my list dealt with that little issue.

Zevox

2023-10-03, 11:55 PM

I have had characters level up out of sync, but only very slightly. My best guess as to why is that I think the xp you get when you gain Inspiration only goes to the character who gained Inspiration, but I'm not completely sure if that's true or not, never had a good opportunity to test it.

Continuing my second play through, I have to say, I'm surprised I'm not feeling much difference in difficulty between Balanced on my first run and Tactician on my second. Maybe I had slightly lower odds to hit enemies in the initial areas, where you're level 1-2, but everything's felt pretty much the same since then. Oh, aside from some Intellect Devourers at the crash site who seem to have gained a ranged psychic attack at that I'm pretty sure they didn't have on Balanced. That's the only thing that's stood out though.

Jophiel

2023-10-04, 01:11 AM

Yeah, I've had characters level out of sync but something as minor as discovering a new location for +80 xp will close the gap. Character specific Inspiration would help explain it.

I'm just setting foot into Act III this run and had intended on taking Halsin around to see what he does/says but I'm struggling to find a place for him. Part of it is that I have a bunch of people with story-specific things to do in the city and part of it is just that no one really needs a druid anyway. Plus I have another druid who, again, has actual story stuff in the city. I've already thoroughly neglected Gale this run (who has let me know several times) and haven't had Astarion in my group since probably before the Goblin camp. Shoehorning in another character is just awkward. I could respec him (Ancients Paladin could have merit) but that's just a lot of shuffling gear (Karlach is already Oath of Vengeance this run) when I'm gonna want Karlach along for plot reasons anyway. Ah well, maybe I'll just spin him around for the stuff I know doesn't directly involve companions.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-04, 02:21 AM

As a second topic, my Durge playthrough is underway, and I'm joyously using mods this time. Here's my current list from BG3 Mod Manager:

IIRC, Larian fixed summons in the last patch so a mod to prevent NPCs from going mad when there are summons abound should no longer be needed. Most of the list is sorely needed to make BG3 less annoying, IMHO.

I mean, characters even jokes about needing a Bag of Holding and I genuinely thought for most of the game I would eventually found one before discovering the dark truth (should update the Portal meme about the cake with a BoH).

Eldan

2023-10-04, 03:15 AM

BRC

2023-10-04, 08:33 AM

Lore Question

So, Ketheric Thorme was a Selunite nobleman.

At some point in his life, the following events happen

His daughter Isobel (One of four children considering the Doctor, the Toll Collector, and the Brewmaster, but apparently the one he loves the most) Dies.

He turns to the Worship of Shar and becomes the leader of the Dark Justicars, building Grymforge and the Gauntlet of Shar.

He kidnaps his daughter's Demigod Wife and binds her in the shadowfell as "The Nightsong", stealing her immortality.

He gets killed by a force of Harpers and Druids, laying the shadow-curse on the land, and then vanishes for a century.

He returns.

He abandons Shar for Myrkul, becoming Myrkul's chosen, and starting the Cult of the Absolute.

Myrkul lets him resurrect Isobel, who runs off screaming.

Talking to Isobel, it seems like she died BEFORE he turned to worshiping Shar, and was resurrected fairly recently. The Nightsong implies she was trapped for around a century. Which means he would have been immortal back during the initial war.

So is the timeline

Isobel Dies
He turns to Shar
Builds the Fortresses/becomes leader of the Dark Justicars
Captures the Nightsong
Gets "Killed", but actually just lays low for a century or so.
Betrays Shar for Myrkul
Resurrects Isobel?

Psyren

2023-10-04, 08:34 AM

I never noticed out-of-sync leveling before but I'll acquiesce that it's a thing. It didn't register to me that the Inspiration XP was character-specific.

I'm thinking of sending Wyll into either Ranger or Rogue for a level to nab Sleight of Hand proficiency. Not until level 6, but the lack of it is very slightly annoying.

Part of me still finds it weird that tool proficiencies aren't a thing in BG3. Then again, they're not a thing on DnDBeyond either, so... :smallsigh:

IIRC, Larian fixed summons in the last patch so a mod to prevent NPCs from going mad when there are summons abound should no longer be needed.

I'll try disabling it once I have Halsin so I can do some empirical testing.

Most of the list is sorely needed to make BG3 less annoying, IMHO.

Right? The Dodge Action alone nearly made me break my "no mods on the first playthrough" rule by itself.

Eldan

2023-10-04, 08:39 AM

Dodge action?

Keltest

2023-10-04, 08:50 AM

In 5e, you can take the "dodge" action, which as the name suggests makes it harder for enemies to hit you. Its used either when you REALLY don't want to get hit or, and this is more frequent in my experience, when you don't have anything else you can spend your action on this turn.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-04, 08:53 AM

Part of me still finds it weird that tool proficiencies aren't a thing in BG3. Then again, they're not a thing on DnDBeyond either, so... :smallsigh:

They are, but only for Musical instruments. It would have been cool to be able to pick Lanceboard, playing card, or culinary proficiency and have that effect dialogue, even if practically everybody would go for Thieves Tools.

Dodge action?

I think Monks can dodge for a Qi point? Enemies get disad on attack rolls or the like.

Jophiel

2023-10-04, 09:06 AM

Lore Question

So is the timeline

Isobel Dies
He turns to Shar
Builds the Fortresses/becomes leader of the Dark Justicars
Captures the Nightsong
Gets "Killed", but actually just lays low for a century or so.
Betrays Shar for Myrkul
Resurrects Isobel?

I think this is broadly correct. I went through the end of Act II (again) last night and talked to Isobel, etc. As you said, Thorm was a Selunite, gets jealous of Aylin when she comes to town and Isobel falls in love with her, following Isobel's death (not sure if they ever say how) he turns to Shar. He and Balthazar trick Aylin into being trapped, Shadow curse, kicks around for a century doing crosswords, Myrkul offers to force-rez Isobel in exchange for Thorm's service, Thorm agrees, Thorm realizes "Whoops, left my source of immortality in my last deity's closet" and sends Balthazar off to retrieve her. When you arrive, Balthazar is sort of just kicking around because he's in no hurry to test Shar and because he seems like the kind of employee who makes a big show of being part of the company but also spends four hours a day on Facebook doing a side-hustle.

I *assume* Thorm tricked Aylin before he openly became capital-E-Evil unless Aylin is just a terrible judge of character and lets obviously evil dudes tell her where to go to rescue puppies or whatever story they told her. Moonrise Tower existed from the Selunite days (hence the name) and had the functioning town around it until the Shadow Curse.

I always assumed, outside of game, that Isobel died under circumstances that would make her spirit refuse to return which is why previous attempts to raise her failed (the spirit knows it's being called back and the alignment of the caster and can refuse to return). But I don't think the game ever says and Isobel just says she was alive until she wasn't and then she was again. Her resurrection by Myrkul, Lord of Necromancy, has left her feeling off and with a persistent grave-lung cough so it feels like she wasn't rez'd in the traditional sense.

BRC

2023-10-04, 09:12 AM

I think this is broadly correct. I went through the end of Act II (again) last night and talked to Isobel, etc. As you said, Thorm was a Selunite, gets jealous of Aylin when she comes to town and Isobel falls in love with her, following Isobel's death (not sure if they ever say how) he turns to Shar. He and Balthazar trick Aylin into being trapped, Shadow curse, kicks around for a century doing crosswords, Myrkul offers to force-rez Isobel in exchange for Thorm's service, Thorm agrees, Thorm realizes "Whoops, left my source of immortality in my last deity's closet" and sends Balthazar off to retrieve her.

I *assume* Thorm tricked Aylin before he openly became capital-E-Evil unless Aylin is just a terrible judge of character and lets obviously evil dudes tell her where to go to rescue puppies or whatever story they told her. Moonrise Tower existed from the Selunite days (hence the name) and had the functioning town around it until the Shadow Curse.

I always assumed, outside of game, that Isobel died under circumstances that would make her spirit refuse to return which is why previous attempts to raise her failed (the spirit knows it's being called back and the alignment of the caster and can refuse to return). But I don't think the game ever says and Isobel just says she was alive until she wasn't and then she was again. Her resurrection by Myrkul, Lord of Necromancy, has left her feeling off and with a persistent grave-lung cough so it feels like she wasn't rez'd in the traditional sense.

Considering Aylin is, you know, The Daughter Of Selune, I find it odd that she couldn't get a Selunite cleric to resurrect Isobel.

Like, my current assumption is just that Raise Dead doesn't exist in this version of the world, and Isobel died and was dead outside the range of a Revivify before her body was found, so it took Divine Intervention to save her, and Selune wasn't willing to do that even for her daughter's love.

That or we just forget about Ressurection magic altogether when convenient.

Jophiel

2023-10-04, 09:16 AM

Considering Aylin is, you know, The Daughter Of Selune, I find it odd that she couldn't get a Selunite cleric to resurrect Isobel.

Like, my current assumption is just that Raise Dead doesn't exist in this version of the world, and Isobel died and was dead outside the range of a Revivify before her body was found, so it took Divine Intervention to save her, and Selune wasn't willing to do that even for her daughter's love.

Thorm says that he tried several times to resurrect her but no one could succeed at it before Myrkul came along. I think that was dialogue from my last, Evil, run where I chatted with Thorm more than this last time where I mostly just stabbed him.

So the magic, in theory, exists but it wasn't effective in this case.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-04, 10:16 AM

I suspect Myrkul was involved in the death of Isobel, hence why resurrection magic did not work on her and only Myrkul was able to bring her back.

Psyren

2023-10-04, 10:16 AM

Dodge action?

It's a core action in D&D 5e, and a particularly useful one if you have nothing better to do on your turn or you're trying to approach enemies safely - all attacks against you have disadvantage and you have advantage on reflex saves. For whatever reason, Larian left it out of BG3, and modders put it back in.

It's especially funny because the code for it is there, baked into the Monk's Patient Defense bonus action, so it's not like it wouldn't have been technically feasible to do (and clearly it was, given the mod.)

So is the timeline

Isobel Dies
He turns to Shar
Builds the Fortresses/becomes leader of the Dark Justicars
Captures the Nightsong
Gets "Killed", but actually just lays low for a century or so.
Betrays Shar for Myrkul
Resurrects Isobel?

This looks right to me, although I think he originally built moonrise for Selune?

And yes, he says that only Myrkul could give him what he wanted, i.e. his daughter.

BRC

2023-10-04, 10:31 AM

This looks right to me, although I think he originally built moonrise for Selune?

And yes, he says that only Myrkul could give him what he wanted, i.e. his daughter.
I was referring to the underground fortresses. Grimforge and The Gauntlet are both, I believe, attributed to him.

Jophiel

2023-10-04, 10:59 AM

I was referring to the underground fortresses. Grimforge and The Gauntlet are both, I believe, attributed to him.
Dude had a busy 100 years :smallbiggrin:

That's not to say you're wrong -- Shadowheart attributes the Sharran temple in the city to its current owner and, again, it's pretty large AND has that quaint half-ruined look that makes you wonder if it was just designed that way or if it aged really hard.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-04, 11:35 AM

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-04, 11:59 AM

I seem to be getting a bug that when I exit the temple of Selune and start a fight in the first round all of my characters get their turns then for three rounds someone will just have their turn skipped despite not being under a crowd control effect. Couple with the fact that the goblins have a tendency to land at least one crit a round and the fight just becomes straight up unwinnable. If I actually got my turns, or if it was a spell I could disrupt, then the fight would be gruelling but doable, as it is I'm just straight up outdamaged.

Psyren

2023-10-04, 12:31 PM

So i want to ask so many questions that bugged me about the Forgotten Realm lore and other related DnD lore. Its tangentially related to this game (obviously), but its not necessarily ***about*** the game or the story in it. You guys mind if i open a Forgotten Realms+ Lore Discussion thread in this forum or in the media forum?

Roland usually says you should put your thread wherever you think it fits best and the mods can always move it if needed. This subforum, the media subforum or the 5e subforum could all be argued to fit.

With that said, I don't see a problem with just asking your questions in this thread either. Up to you :smallsmile:

I seem to be getting a bug that when I exit the temple of Selune and start a fight in the first round all of my characters get their turns then for three rounds someone will just have their turn skipped despite not being under a crowd control effect. Couple with the fact that the goblins have a tendency to land at least one crit a round and the fight just becomes straight up unwinnable. If I actually got my turns, or if it was a spell I could disrupt, then the fight would be gruelling but doable, as it is I'm just straight up outdamaged.

There's a couple of different exits to the camp/temple so I would suggest trying another one to see if that helps.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-04, 01:05 PM

Roland usually says you should put your thread wherever you think it fits best and the mods can always move it if needed. This subforum, the media subforum or the 5e subforum could all be argued to fit.

With that said, I don't see a problem with just asking your questions in this thread either. Up to you :smallsmile:

All right. Let me do a slight thread derail then, this is to discuss the Lore.

I was wondering about the Githyanki "Empire". There's surprisingly little information about said empire, its reach and brutality. For something that was the topic of the splinter between the Githyankis and the Githzerai, the lore seem to heavily gloss over it.

For all ive seen, the Githyanki "empire" is basically only the one huge city in the Astral Plane and indeterminate number of creches around the multiverse - creches needed to the perpetuation of their race.

And even with these creches, the Githyanki seem to act extremely closed and xenophobic. Focusing on birthing eggs, training the youths and growing food - with little interaction with nearby outsiders except if they prove threatening, are involved with Mind Flayers, or there's an order from the Queen's Hierarchy to involve themselves with the rest of the world (like searching for a weapon that was stolen).

Like.. are there actually whole worlds, or cities, that were conquered by the Githyanki "Empire"? Or are the Githyanki just acting like aloof aliens who take what they want because they feel entitled to it because of their innate superiority complex?

The only outpost they seem to have are military meant to achieve a specific objective (hunting Illithids, executing a mission) or acting as creches.

So, is the Githyanki Empire actually an empire or merely an interventionist power that dont care about local jurisdictions?

Finally, was this matter of fact a consequence of the Vlaakith's hold over the Empire, and the Gith/Orpheus rulership period was more imperialist?

Just wondering.

Psyren

2023-10-04, 01:59 PM

I can't speak as much to the Orpheus stuff or his views; if his slice of Gith lore existed prior to this game, it would have been tucked away somewhere I didn't read. (One of our resident 1e->3e loremasters like afroakuma might be able to source it.)

But concerning Vlaakith - the main thing to understand about her is she views the Githyanki race above all else as two things - a food source to perpetuate her own singular existence/power, as well as a blunt instrument she can use to keep the illithids' and their Grand Design in check (and eventually obliterate.) But the latter objective is not done out of any kind of benevolence, nor merely to deny the mindflayers a foothold across the universe; removing the Gith's greatest enemy will allow Vlaakith and her chosen to essentially supplant them as cosmos-spanning raiders and slavers, pillaging or even enslaving the multiple worlds they encounter for resources and chattel.

There are several unknowns in Vlaakith's story, such as: what exactly happened to Mother Gith that kept her from returning; what benefit(s) Tiamat gets out of lending the Githyanki knights her children; whether Vlaakith routinely devouring her most powerful chosen is a necessity for her or just a product of her greed and paranoia; and what her ultimate plans for a post-Illithid Material might be.

Presumably Orpheus has at least an inkling as to the first question, and his hatred of Vlaakith stems from that (as well as a desire to free his people from their delusional devotion to her) - but for obvious reasons the game doesn't spend a lot of time on his longer-term motivations and mindset.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-04, 02:51 PM

There's a couple of different exits to the camp/temple so I would suggest trying another one to see if that helps.

Probably, but I eventually managed to brute force my way out anyway. It turns out I was missing notifications about Command spells being in effect for some reason.

Also I really wish they paced out the Guardian visits more early on, I just got two in a row. Yes mistress, I know you want me to use the special Illithid powers, but the game implies that consumes my brain and I've already lost the recipe that requires thirteen bulbs of garlic and nothing else.

As a side note, I kind of wish the Halfling models were a bit plumper. Yes they're the fattest and (proportionately) bustiest of the playable races, but I don't quite feel like a proper hobbit (which isn't helped by the game implying I should equip boots). Don't get me wrong, they're actually one of my favourite races (hobbitses, demonspawn, and treehugger elves), and far better than most 5e Halfling depictions, but I feel like they could go further. Them being quite broad, but not to the extent of dwarves, makes them look short without having a head the size of their torso. I can imagine a couple dozen BG3 Halflings defending their village from a goblin raid.

Zevox

2023-10-04, 04:47 PM

All right. Let me do a slight thread derail then, this is to discuss the Lore.

I was wondering about the Githyanki "Empire". There's surprisingly little information about said empire, its reach and brutality. For something that was the topic of the splinter between the Githyankis and the Githzerai, the lore seem to heavily gloss over it.

For all ive seen, the Githyanki "empire" is basically only the one huge city in the Astral Plane and indeterminate number of creches around the multiverse - creches needed to the perpetuation of their race.

And even with these creches, the Githyanki seem to act extremely closed and xenophobic. Focusing on birthing eggs, training the youths and growing food - with little interaction with nearby outsiders except if they prove threatening, are involved with Mind Flayers, or there's an order from the Queen's Hierarchy to involve themselves with the rest of the world (like searching for a weapon that was stolen).

Like.. are there actually whole worlds, or cities, that were conquered by the Githyanki "Empire"? Or are the Githyanki just acting like aloof aliens who take what they want because they feel entitled to it because of their innate superiority complex?

The only outpost they seem to have are military meant to achieve a specific objective (hunting Illithids, executing a mission) or acting as creches.

So, is the Githyanki Empire actually an empire or merely an interventionist power that dont care about local jurisdictions?

Finally, was this matter of fact a consequence of the Vlaakith's hold over the Empire, and the Gith/Orpheus rulership period was more imperialist?

Just wondering.
I believe they're supposed to control more of the Astral than just the one named city where Vlaakith resides, but I'm not certain. The Githyanki have always been a fairly minor part of D&D lore, and I don't know that we have a ton of details about them besides what you see in the game already. I'm pretty certain they don't have much Realms-specific lore, they're a general D&D thing that just also happens to exist in the Realms.

In general though, any territory they control would likely be in the Astral Plane. Outside of the Astral they do only three things: fight Mind Flayers and Githzerai, stage raids to steal stuff (they're basically interplanar bandits), and establish Creches for hatching and raising their young.

Also, as far as we know, Orpheus never ruled the Gith. Vlaakith claimed power when Gith went missing, and Orpheus lost whatever bid he made to stop her. Though I also don't think Gith herself is supposed to be that much better than Vlaakith, either - she was the one whose warlike ways Zerthimon objected to, leading to the split between Githyanki and Githzerai, not Vlaakith. Vlaakith just re-centered Githyanki society around serving her above all else, it was already otherwise pretty much as it currently is before that.

Jophiel

2023-10-04, 06:04 PM

As a side note, I kind of wish the Halfling models were a bit plumper. Yes they're the fattest and (proportionately) bustiest of the playable races, but I don't quite feel like a proper hobbit (which isn't helped by the game implying I should equip boots).

5e doesn't mention halfling barefootedness. Maybe it changed before that, I'm not a halflingologist, but 5e has them in shoes. As an avowed traditionalist, I keep mine barefoot while in camp but I'm not committed enough to the bit to pass up on my Misty Step/Anti-Ensnare boots.

warty goblin

2023-10-04, 06:32 PM

Probably, but I eventually managed to brute force my way out anyway. It turns out I was missing notifications about Command spells being in effect for some reason.

That was a fun one. First try I got completely shredded. Second try I summoned my cannibal ogre buddies from the blighted village. That worked a lot better.

Zevox

2023-10-04, 06:36 PM

[...]Couple with the fact that the goblins have a tendency to land at least one crit a round[...]
Question: do you have Karmic Dice turned on? Because from what I've read elsewhere, that could explain a weird situation like that. Karmic Dice apparently don't just apply to you, but to all rolls, including your enemies'. So if your enemies go on a streak of bad rolls for a bit, they'll get a boost to their odds of good results, including the odds of crits.

Having played a full time through the game with Karmic Dice off, my experience was that crits were quite rare. In a typical combat, I saw zero. If I saw one, I was lucky (or unlucky if the enemy landed it). If I saw multiple in the same fight, it was very lucky/unlucky, an extremely rare situation.

So, if you have that on, may want to turn it off. If you don't, well, you're getting some legitimately terrible luck there.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-04, 07:03 PM

5e doesn't mention halfling barefootedness. Maybe it changed before that, I'm not a halflingologist, but 5e has them in shoes. As an avowed traditionalist, I keep mine barefoot while in camp but I'm not committed enough to the bit to pass up on my Misty Step/Anti-Ensnare boots.

Yes, 5e forgets to mention the obvious quite a bit. And Larian could definitely add a 'hide footwear' button.

Question: do you have Karmic Dice turned on? Because from what I've read elsewhere, that could explain a weird situation like that. Karmic Dice apparently don't just apply to you, but to all rolls, including your enemies'. So if your enemies go on a streak of bad rolls for a bit, they'll get a boost to their odds of good results, including the odds of crits.

Having played a full time through the game with Karmic Dice off, my experience was that crits were quite rare. In a typical combat, I saw zero. If I saw one, I was lucky (or unlucky if the enemy landed it). If I saw multiple in the same fight, it was very lucky/unlucky, an extremely rare situation.

So, if you have that on, may want to turn it off. If you don't, well, you're getting some legitimately terrible luck there.

A mixture of karmic dice and that particular combat having 12+ enemies, making 1-2 crits a round very likely. I might turn the setting off, I mostly wanted it to make combat faster.

Zevox

2023-10-04, 07:21 PM

Huh, something that's neat in retrospect that I just stumbled upon.
The chest with the offering to Selûne has a little puzzle you need to solve to open it, finding a prayer sheet by the statue nearby. This was news to me, because the first time through, I was playing a Cleric of Selûne, and just got to open that chest automatically, as if it wasn't locked at all. Nice touch I didn't even notice because it was my first time through.

Keltest

2023-10-04, 07:25 PM

Jophiel

2023-10-04, 07:31 PM

Yes, 5e forgets to mention the obvious quite a bit. And Larian could definitely add a 'hide footwear' button.
See, THOSE are the mods we need!

Also, maybe one where the game stops auto-selecting 94/40 rations when I'm trying to camp.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-04, 08:12 PM

See, THOSE are the mods we need!

Also, maybe one where the game stops auto-selecting 94/40 rations when I'm trying to camp.

And not the endless 'X unleashed' mods which give races and classes a boatload of features they don't need (inevitably including lucky. i.e. the Halfling's main racial trait).

But honestly, I'd love the ability to toggle show/hide for everything but the 'torso' slot, because sometimes the added gloves/boots/cape just look a bit silly. And an easier way to deal with food than opening the camp chest and splitting stacks.

Keltest

2023-10-04, 08:17 PM

And not the endless 'X unleashed' mods which give races and classes a boatload of features they don't need (inevitably including lucky. i.e. the Halfling's main racial trait).

But honestly, I'd love the ability to toggle show/hide for everything but the 'torso' slot, because sometimes the added gloves/boots/cape just look a bit silly. And an easier way to deal with food than opening the camp chest and splitting stacks.
You don't just make Karlach carry it all?

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-04, 08:46 PM

You don't just make Karlach carry it all?

And wast precious inventory space?

Also I really, really hate how the game will just sometimes decide the closest character is the one that does the conversation, especially when it stops the characters with actual social skills from doing it because they just happened to have a slower speed and the game doesn't let you switch the speaker. I'm going to be very, very annoyed if being forced to roleplay as Shadowheart causes me to break my oath.

Psyren

2023-10-04, 08:47 PM

I don't know about a "hide footwear" mod, but the transmog mod does cover boots.

You don't just make Karlach carry it all?

I mean, you'd still have to split stacks if the game is autoselecting more than 40. There's a mod that eliminates the camp supplies minigame too though.

Zevox

2023-10-04, 08:51 PM

The only thing I want from the "hide" feature is for it to stay on when a character isn't currently in my party. I hide those helmets and hats for a reason, I want to the characters' faces; but the game just decides that as soon they're sitting in camp, I get to see their full armor look again, whether I want to or not.

Jophiel

2023-10-04, 09:09 PM

I mean, you'd still have to split stacks if the game is autoselecting more than 40.
The dumb thing is that the game skips 80% of my rations inventory to hone in on a stack of 20 apples worth 60 food. Then adds MORE on top of that: an egg here, a mushroom there, a carafe of wine... how it gets to 80+ is just insane decision making. It could easily hit 40-44 rations by just picking logical options.

To be clear, this is really just a minor (and sometimes amusing) annoyance. But I had it happen just before I said we need a halfling freed toes mod.

Psyren

2023-10-04, 09:09 PM

Zevox

2023-10-04, 11:59 PM

Just did the Phase Spider lair on my second run - deliberately chose to go in as soon as I could, at level 3, to see what that was like (did it at level 5 last time). It was definitely a noticeably harder fight than my first time, though to be fair, I'm also on Tactician difficulty instead of Balanced; but also to be fair, I'm not finding the difficulty setting has made that much difference in other fights. Here I think it may have given the big spider more spiderlings per set of eggs, though I'm not 100% sure on that, could be misremembering how many popped out on me the first time.

Anyway, while harder, I found it entirely doable. It did take me a second try due to some bad luck on the first one, and I definitely took a beating and drank a fair amount of healing potions to win it (I think I really felt my lower health at level 3 compared to 5 more than anything else), but the obvious strategy of dropping the big spider when it's on the webs came through just fine. Would've been very nice to have my old Cleric's Radiance of the Dawn channel divinity for those spiderlings though, I definitely found them way more annoying without a big AoE that doesn't hurt my allies.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-05, 07:28 AM

Anyway, while harder, I found it entirely doable. It did take me a second try due to some bad luck on the first one, and I definitely took a beating and drank a fair amount of healing potions to win it (I think I really felt my lower health at level 3 compared to 5 more than anything else), but the obvious strategy of dropping the big spider when it's on the webs came through just fine. Would've been very nice to have my old Cleric's Radiance of the Dawn channel divinity for those spiderlings though, I definitely found them way more annoying without a big AoE that doesn't hurt my allies.

While it makes that part slower, you can hide and destroy the eggs beforehand without alerting the spiders, just shoot them with a ranged weapon when the Matriarch is not looking in their direction.

Zevox

2023-10-05, 08:11 AM

While it makes that part slower, you can hide and destroy the eggs beforehand without alerting the spiders, just shoot them with a ranged weapon when the Matriarch is not looking in their direction.
Eh, sure, but that would be tedious. And hatching the eggs does waste some of the big spider's turns, so I'm not even sure it would be a net positive for me.

warty goblin

2023-10-05, 08:43 AM

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-05, 10:11 AM

Hit level 5 this morning. My ranger's transformation into a militarized blender is pretty much complete, two base main hand attacks plus the dual wield off hand strike, plus an additional main hand attack from horde breaker on special occasions.

Its times like this that I really appreciate 5E's scoot'n'slash movement policy. Really makes that Drizzt fantasy work. Or it would if the game had any magical scimitars, I'm reduced to a short sword and a dagger.

You will learn to hate the enemies with disarming strike. It has a simple procedure for recovering from it:
Work out where your weapons have flown off too (I swear they're not always by your feat).
Re-equip one per turn using your action.
Pray all the enemies haven't scooted off to the other side of the arena.

It was at that point I realised exactly why both Lae'zel and Karlach default to being two handed warriors.

Eldonauran

2023-10-05, 11:16 AM

You will learn to hate the enemies with disarming strike.Is it weird that I never had to worry about disarming attacks until Act 3, and it was *literally* in Hell.

Keltest

2023-10-05, 11:18 AM

Is it weird that I never had to worry about disarming attacks until Act 3, and it was *literally* in Hell.

You must have played nice with the Githyanki, a lot of their warriors like doing it.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-05, 11:29 AM

Is it weird that I never had to worry about disarming attacks until Act 3, and it was *literally* in Hell.

They appear as early as the Act 1 wrap-up (on both routes), but are pretty rare and I think set not to use it much. But they're an annoyingly effective counter to melee fighters when they do use it. I'm very glad I've yet to see enemies who also have Trip Attack.

Also I'm somewhat annoyed at the game's Human traits being much better for casters than warriors, but I do appreciate it meaning that both Wyll and Gale get Shield proficiency (and light armour for Gale, but Mage Armour is good enough for now).

Eldonauran

2023-10-05, 11:36 AM

You must have played nice with the Githyanki, a lot of their warriors like doing it.Oh, I did indeed. Lae'zel was part of my group and it would not have gone over well had I not. I suppose it doesn't hurt that my 'tank' character has a bound weapon (Eldritch Knight) and the other front liner is mostly a monk.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-05, 11:44 AM

Eldonauran

2023-10-05, 11:56 AM

I'm honestly considering respeccing Lae'zel into an Eldritch Knight, not because Battlemaster is weak (I suspect it's actually better) but because she strikes me as decent INT bad WIS.

Plus, you know, gish.My first time through, I made Lae'zel a Eldritch Knight5/Warlock5/Paladin2. I have not regretted it for a single moment. She scares me for reasons other than the common one (romance). I did get her some Battlemaster moves with a feat. Mostly to hit people back for daring to strike her. She was sword and board for a while... until I got a specific two handed sword.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-05, 12:06 PM

My first time through, I made Lae'zel a Eldritch Knight5/Warlock5/Paladin2. I have not regretted it for a single moment. She scares me for reasons other than the common one (romance). I did get her some Battlemaster moves with a feat. Mostly to hit people back for daring to strike her. She was sword and board for a while... until I got a specific two handed sword.

I'm not having her in the party a ton this run, I'm going with Shadowheart, Karlach, and Wyll/Gale for most of it, but I might try something similar on my next run.

The biggest annoyance I have with the Paladin is that I rarely want to use spells, the default Smite is just incredibly practical. But honestly that's pretty minor and might clear up when I have more than three slots. (Or not, because I'll also have Extra Attack.)

Eldonauran

2023-10-05, 12:27 PM

The biggest annoyance I have with the Paladin is that I rarely want to use spells, the default Smite is just incredibly practical. But honestly that's pretty minor and might clear up when I have more than three slots. (Or not, because I'll also have Extra Attack.)Having the Warlock spell slots regenerate with a short rest keeps the smiting coming. I usually use my Warlock spells to buff with long term spells, and then start using them for smites after the first short rest. Also, I am able to use the Paladin spells that 'smite' as part of my normal attack routine, provided that I hit with the first attack. Strike -> Thunderous Smite -> Strike. Apparently the Extra attack from pact of the blade stacks with the Fighter's extra attack at 5th level. Lae'zel is a heavily focused charisma character in the party, since it determines her attacks rolls.

That does burn through resources quite quickly though and I usually just save the Paladin/Eldritch Knight spell slots for the harder fights or for whenever a crit pops up and it asks me if I want to use one.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-05, 12:37 PM

I believe they're supposed to control more of the Astral than just the one named city where Vlaakith resides, but I'm not certain. The Githyanki have always been a fairly minor part of D&D lore, and I don't know that we have a ton of details about them besides what you see in the game already. I'm pretty certain they don't have much Realms-specific lore, they're a general D&D thing that just also happens to exist in the Realms.

In general though, any territory they control would likely be in the Astral Plane. Outside of the Astral they do only three things: fight Mind Flayers and Githzerai, stage raids to steal stuff (they're basically interplanar bandits), and establish Creches for hatching and raising their young.

Also, as far as we know, Orpheus never ruled the Gith. Vlaakith claimed power when Gith went missing, and Orpheus lost whatever bid he made to stop her. Though I also don't think Gith herself is supposed to be that much better than Vlaakith, either - she was the one whose warlike ways Zerthimon objected to, leading to the split between Githyanki and Githzerai, not Vlaakith. Vlaakith just re-centered Githyanki society around serving her above all else, it was already otherwise pretty much as it currently is before that.

Thanks. Yhea, it is just that im having a lot of difficulty making a moral judgement about the Githyanki where what is effectively their worse feature (imperial rule) is done off camera and just said "bah its merely worlds in the astral plane".

Toril is a world in the astral plane. All material planes are worlds in the astra plane, are Githyanki actually conqueror of whole civilisation or they only settle little outpost to grab key resource + grow their number? (Like an alien invader capturing Chile and settling an enclave there to exploit its lithium reserve).

And yhea, your 2nd point is also a big deal

would freeing Orpheus just.. release the Githyanki into a new conquering frenzy? Am i unleashing Alexander the Great 2.0 on the multiverse?

Or would it allow them to refocus on themselves rather than lose themselves in the service of a lich queen?

Hell, my paranoid instinct has me wondering if the Githyanki didnt completely stop their xenocide of the Illithids because they lost Orpheus/Gith psionic disrupting activity, forcing them to stop attacking elder brains directly and instead focused on guerilla strikes and resource gathering.

Eldonauran

2023-10-05, 02:05 PM

Cikomyr2

2023-10-05, 02:13 PM

Aren't the Material Plane and the Astral Plane two different dimensions/planes? I was under the impression that the Astral Plane co-exists along side a number of other different planes of existence, requiring specific kinds of magic to travel between the two. You've got the whole material universe and then you've got the Astral, where time doesn't work the same.

I mean..

Its magic/real space. Its the void between realities. Its the great nothing of existence with only stars, asteroids and dead gods and countless other material worlds, each with their gods, but still connected to the Planes their own way.

Eldonauran

2023-10-05, 02:28 PM

I mean..

Its magic/real space. Its the void between realities. Its the great nothing of existence with only stars, asteroids and dead gods and countless other material worlds, each with their gods, but still connected to the Planes their own way.
It has other 'material worlds'? You mean actual worlds that have been pulled into it or coalesced from debris within the realm itself, or do you mean other 'material realms' like the one that Toril resides in? Time doesn't 'flow' in the Astral Plane like it does in the Material Realm, so any life that is there is stuck at its current stage of development. Githyanki have to lay their eggs on planes with actual time in order to create the next generation.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-05, 02:44 PM

It has other 'material worlds'? You mean actual worlds that have been pulled into it or coalesced from debris within the realm itself, or do you mean other 'material realms' like the one that Toril resides in? Time doesn't 'flow' in the Astral Plane like it does in the Material Realm, so any life that is there is stuck at its current stage of development. Githyanki have to lay their eggs on planes with actual time in order to create the next generation.

Well, yhea. Other worlds. Planets. Where time flows, and githyanki, illithids, Scros and elves live. I remember reading a forgotten realms book about the ancient history of elves, and the start was about Spelljammer imperial navy elves, so thats why i assumed the Astral Plane was basically the Sea of Stars; space.

Eldonauran

2023-10-05, 04:54 PM

...so thats why i assumed the Astral Plane was basically the Sea of Stars; space.If the Astral Plane was outer space, you wouldn't need planeshifting magic to get there.

Zevox

2023-10-05, 04:59 PM

Toril is a world in the astral plane.
No, it isn't. Toril is a world in the prime material plane. Yes, the two are connected, but they're not the same. The Githyanki rule nothing in the material plane besides their Creches. Their interest there, at least as far as I'm aware, is minimal. They'll raid and steal from the inhabitants of the material plane, they'll wage their war on the Mind Flayers (and Githzerai if they happen to be there, but that's rare), and they'll establish Creches to raise their young. That's it. Whatever territories they control are in the astral plane itself, not the materal.

Also, as far as I'm aware, they're not conquerors of anything. They're raiders and xenophobes with particular racial enemies they're hell-bent on exterminating, not imperialistic conquerors. Unless I have very much the wrong impression of them, anyway.

And yhea, your 2nd point is also a big deal

would freeing Orpheus just.. release the Githyanki into a new conquering frenzy? Am i unleashing Alexander the Great 2.0 on the multiverse?

Or would it allow them to refocus on themselves rather than lose themselves in the service of a lich queen?

Hell, my paranoid instinct has me wondering if the Githyanki didnt completely stop their xenocide of the Illithids because they lost Orpheus/Gith psionic disrupting activity, forcing them to stop attacking elder brains directly and instead focused on guerilla strikes and resource gathering.
Unknown.
We don't see enough of Orpheus to have a good idea of how he would lead the Githyanki. He seems at least somewhat noble, insofar as he's more concerned with his people than himself, but we don't really know what he thinks of non-Githyanki, or what he feels the Githyanki should do besides throw off Vlaakith's rule.

Personal speculation? He's still Githyanki, and the son of the person who made the Githyanki what they are. Odds are he throws off Vlaakith's rule, and changes little else. Continues to seek the total extermination of the Mind Flayers, continues the raids on other planes for resources and funsies, probably doesn't change their overall xenophobia. The biggest question mark is what he'd think of the Githzerai, since it's unclear where in the timeline he falls relative to the schism between them. Maybe he'd be more inclined to try and make peace with them, which could do the Githyanki a lot of good; or maybe not, since they did explicitly reject his mother's rule, and the two factions would remain mortal enemies.

But that's all just speculation. In general though, make no mistake, the Githyanki are a usually evil race, motivated by revenge and xenophobia. Absent something changing that, if they ever achieved their aim of eradicating the Mind Flayers and Githzerai, there very well might be a risk of them turning their attentions to other targets, particularly any they come to regard as a threat. That's just pretty unlikely to happen.

Well, yhea. Other worlds. Planets. Where time flows, and githyanki, illithids, Scros and elves live. I remember reading a forgotten realms book about the ancient history of elves, and the start was about Spelljammer imperial navy elves, so thats why i assumed the Astral Plane was basically the Sea of Stars; space.
The Astral plane is not space. It is the plane in between the Material and Inner planes (elemental, feywild, shadow) and the Outer planes. You can travel to other planes through it, but it is not a part of them. The plane that is kind of a part of other planes is the Ethereal, which overlaps with the material and inner planes, being basically their ghost realm.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-05, 04:59 PM

If the Astral Plane was outer space, you wouldn't need planeshifting magic to get there.

I always assumed it was basically hyperspace. In fact my Starfinder setting replaced the Drift with the Astral.

BRC

2023-10-05, 05:10 PM

My understanding is that it's not "Space" as in you can't get there by going up fast enough, but once you get there it certainly has a spacelike aesthetic, and there's stuff floating around there.

Keltest

2023-10-05, 05:20 PM

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-05, 05:33 PM

The Githyanki aren't conquerors as such, because the Illithids and to a lesser extent Githzerai keep them in check, but their cultural ethos includes the idea of being conquerors, which was the result of the original split in the Gith race.

Githyanki as a societal hold philosophical views that should predispose them against both conquering and religion but essentially engage in both anyway. Although they're closer to bandits with delusions of grandeur than actual conquerors. Meanwhile the Githzerai aren't hypocrites but as explored in Planescape:Torment can get so stuck in the philosophy they stop moving forward.

It's why Lae'zel works, she's a smart young lady who's culture has blinded her to the fact she's guilty of everything she looks down on others for.

Keltest

2023-10-05, 05:38 PM

Githyanki as a societal hold philosophical views that should predispose them against both conquering and religion but essentially engage in both anyway. Although they're closer to bandits with delusions of grandeur than actual conquerors. Meanwhile the Githzerai aren't hypocrites but as explored in Planescape:Torment can get so stuck in the philosophy they stop moving forward.

It's why Lae'zel works, she's a smart young lady who's culture has blinded her to the fact she's guilty of everything she looks down on others for.

Can you elaborate on that? I've never particularly considered Lae'zel a hypocrite.

Eldan

2023-10-05, 05:50 PM

FYI the planes stuff: this changes massively with setzing abd edition. In Planescape, the Astral plane connects the material to the Outer Planes and its described as a void. It's what's outside the planes, described as the backstage of reality. Teleportation goes through it and it has some of the characteristics of the Far Realm, with Eldritch monstrosities and dead Gods. Spelljamming takes place in the Phlogiston, which is "space" between the material worlds and entirely separate from the Astral. And which you can reach by going up.

4E and 5E kinda combined the two into the Astral Sea, which is more Outer Space-like and less Eldritch and IIRC spacejamming happens there now too?

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-05, 07:19 PM

Can you elaborate on that? I've never particularly considered Lae'zel a hypocrite.

Honestly the main thing that springs to mind is her demands for respect despite very clearly giving none, coupled with her blind devotion to Vlaakith but dislike of you having a similar devotion (I think, I honestly need to run through Act 1 with her and see if that reading holds up to scrutiny).

Cikomyr2

2023-10-05, 08:50 PM

Its not space-space, its fantasy-space. To say X world is an Astral World is like saying New Atlantis in Starfield is a Space World. Which is true. In DnD, you dont use science to travel in space you use magic. In space you dont have to fear radiation and no air, but there's no time, so no healing, no growth beyond your intellect and labor.

But its still the concept of space. The Illithid Empire and the Githyanki that succeeded it must contain countless worlds that had time spend, because nothing grows in the astral plane. Its just a medium through which everything happen. Its.. fantasy spacepunk?

Zevox

2023-10-05, 09:09 PM

Its not space-space, its fantasy-space. To say X world is an Astral World is like saying New Atlantis in Starfield is a Space World.
No, it's not. The material plane and astral plane are separate from one another, the same as any two planes are, aside from the Ethereal. No world of the material plane is a world of the astral plane, any more than Avernus is a layer of the Abyss. You can get from one to the other, but they're not the same thing.

The Astral plane is an intermediary one, through which you can travel to most others. In that way you can compare it to space, to some degree. But it's still not the same thing, because the places you can reach from it are still wholly separate planes of existence, not a part of it. It's like a room full of portals to various places, which itself isn't a part of any of the places those portals lead to, but because of the portals you can still get there from it. Except instead of a room, it's a whole plane.

But its still the concept of space. The Illithid Empire and the Githyanki that succeeded it must contain countless worlds that had time spend, because nothing grows in the astral plane. Its just a medium through which everything happen. Its.. fantasy spacepunk?
The Mind Flayer Empire supposedly spanned most of the inner planes, including multiple worlds of the material plane. The Githyanki, if what they have can be called an Empire at all, only have one in the Astral. In the other planes they only establish Creches, perform raids, and fight their enemies, they don't conquer or settle down to stay.

Eldan

2023-10-06, 03:41 AM

Presumably, Baldur's Gate 3 follows the 4th and 5th edition cosmology, where the Astral Plane is Space, because the Phlogiston and Crystal Spheres don't exist anymore.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-06, 05:35 AM

Presumably, Baldur's Gate 3 follows the 4th and 5th edition cosmology, where the Astral Plane is Space, because the Phlogiston and Crystal Spheres don't exist anymore.

How many times has the Forgotten Realms cosmology been rewritten now? Is it twice, or did they slip in a third one as well?

That multiverse must be held together with duct tape by now.

Keltest

2023-10-06, 05:38 AM

How many times has the Forgotten Realms cosmology been rewritten now? Is it twice, or did they slip in a third one as well?

That multiverse must be held together with duct tape by now.

Four. One for every edition change.

Eldan

2023-10-06, 07:03 AM

Forgotten Realms had the Wheel in 2nd edition, briefly the World Tree in Third edition, then the Astral Sea in 4th edition and now a mix of the Astral Sea and the Wheel in 5th.

Psyren

2023-10-06, 08:45 AM

I'm honestly considering respeccing Lae'zel into an Eldritch Knight, not because Battlemaster is weak (I suspect it's actually better) but because she strikes me as decent INT bad WIS.

Plus, you know, gish.

I'm making her an EK this playthrough as well, partially because I already did the Battlemaster thing, and partially because one of my mods added the SCAGtrips to the game.

Thanks. Yhea, it is just that im having a lot of difficulty making a moral judgement about the Githyanki where what is effectively their worse feature (imperial rule) is done off camera and just said "bah its merely worlds in the astral plane".

Toril is a world in the astral plane. All material planes are worlds in the astra plane, are Githyanki actually conqueror of whole civilisation or they only settle little outpost to grab key resource + grow their number? (Like an alien invader capturing Chile and settling an enclave there to exploit its lithium reserve).

And yhea, your 2nd point is also a big deal

would freeing Orpheus just.. release the Githyanki into a new conquering frenzy? Am i unleashing Alexander the Great 2.0 on the multiverse?

Or would it allow them to refocus on themselves rather than lose themselves in the service of a lich queen?

Hell, my paranoid instinct has me wondering if the Githyanki didnt completely stop their xenocide of the Illithids because they lost Orpheus/Gith psionic disrupting activity, forcing them to stop attacking elder brains directly and instead focused on guerilla strikes and resource gathering.

Here's my take on the whole Gith leadership situation:

1) Whether Orpheus turns out to be bad or not, Vlaakith DEFINITELY is. Worse, she's immortal, and thus only getting stronger/more entrenched. The longer you leave a lich in any kind of political power, the harder getting rid of it will ultimately be (hi there, Szass Tam!) Worse, the most powerful Gith left in her inner circle are her fanatical true believers, because pretty much everyone else would just get eaten by her.

2) Even if he's bad - the number of mortals across all of FR capable of successfully blocking an Elder Brain (let alone a Netherbrain!) from turning tadpoled victims is probably single digits. That is a level of psionic skill mortals desperately need. Even Vlaakith herself recognized this.

3) A Githyanki civil war is good news for every other race. Even in the worst case scenario (both factions are equally bad) that just means they'll be too focused on each other to really ramp up their slaving and pillaging. And from what we can tell from Voss, Orpheus' faction isn't as bad, because if nothing else they care about Githyanki having free will. Voss himself is a hardass and a douchebag in several ways, but he kind of had to be - you don't get to kith'rak without playing the game at least a little.

4) Above all else - failing to free Orpheus won't stop the Githyanki from being a threat, the only person it helps is Vlaakith herself. They're already marauders, pirates, slavers etc. Putting a mortal Gith in charge is unlikely to make that worse, and for the reasons above, it's highly likely to make it better.

For those reasons I am pro-liberation.

Aren't the Material Plane and the Astral Plane two different dimensions/planes? I was under the impression that the Astral Plane co-exists along side a number of other different planes of existence, requiring specific kinds of magic to travel between the two. You've got the whole material universe and then you've got the Astral, where time doesn't work the same.

Presumably, Baldur's Gate 3 follows the 4th and 5th edition cosmology, where the Astral Plane is Space, because the Phlogiston and Crystal Spheres don't exist anymore.

Okay! 5e lore time:

Outer space and the Astral are different, but the line blurs once you get up there (a phenomenon known as Wildspace.) Essentially, the Astral is coterminous with the Material, and the barrier gets more... porous?... the higher up you go. This is the core principle behind how spelljamming works, which is canon across 5e.

There's a diagram in the recent Spelljammer book that helps to explain this concept:

https://i0.wp.com/blog.roll20.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/screen-shot-2022-07-26-at-2-00-37-pm.png?w=1299&ssl=1

"Wildspace is where the Astral Plane overlaps with the Material Plane. Creatures and objects in Wildspace age normally and exist on both planes simultaneously. This overlap enables creatures to use spells such as teleport and teleportation circle to travel from Wildspace to a nearby world, or vice versa." - SAIS Ch. 2, "Astral Adventures."

The "Realmspace" Wildspace system is where Toril (FR) can be found, Doomspace is Athas (Dark Sun) etc.

Eldan

2023-10-06, 08:58 AM

Right. That's what I thought. They merged the Phlogiston into the Astral Plane.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-07, 01:20 PM

Respeccing into sword and board, partially to tank better, partially to actually make use of more of the magic weapons (Karlach will use polearms well enough, and I'll keep a big sword or hammer around for Lae'zel), and partially to look more like a stereotypical knight. Torn between sticking with Devotion or switching to Ancients, they both fit the way I'm playing so I'll probably end up doing a second Paladin run for Ancients.

Eldan

2023-10-08, 06:03 AM

Man I hate this game sometimes. So I'm in the grymforge. Character is on top of a cliff. Tell the character to walk to the bottom of a cliff, assuming he'll take the path back. Nope. Walks straight off the cliff edge two stories down into a pool of magma and dies. Turns out I haven't quicksaved in a good while either.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-08, 06:08 AM

Finally left Act 1 for the Mountain Pass, and wow I can see why Halsin argues for the Underdark, there's much less content this way. I did successfully get Lae'zel to destroy the tadpole extraction machine (because I'm not developing the powers), so at least there's that.

Also getting Karlach all wet is both funny and incredibly sweet.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-08, 08:08 AM

For my third playthrough, I rolled a Wizard and forced myself to rest more often.
Casters have so much more impact in fights if you just don't care about spell slots and yes, I know it is rather obvious, but my PbP brain could not process that the "15 minutes adventuring day" is a real possibility in the game with minimal consequences (I know there are some quests that are on a timer but the timer itself is rather generous and as soon as you take care of those, you're good to rest as much as you want).
Plus, the game really wants you to rest often; so much stuff happens at night and I'm now seeing certain dialogues for the first time ever because of all the rests. And...well, I do not really like having all these plot threads bound to rests. Wish more stuff between the main character and companions would happen in the world while traveling.

Eldonauran

2023-10-08, 09:51 AM

For my third playthrough, I rolled a Wizard and forced myself to rest more often.
I've downloaded a mod that runs a script every so often to check if there is any 'end of day' dialogue content available and it puts an exclamation point above the main character's head, just like when your companions want to chat with you. I can certainly attest that there is a good amount of dialogue that I have missed because of how little I rested in Act 1. For example, I didn't get the owl bear cub to come to my camp until mid-way through Act 2 and in my Dark Urge run with this mod, the cub has arrived before I've set off the explore the Underdark/Mountain Pass.

If it help any, you can 'long rest' without consuming any food but won't really get the full effects. No HP, no recharged short rests, some (I think up to half, not exceeding half) of spell slot recharging. It will end any 'until long rest' effects you have running though.

On another note... I have certainly noticed the power spike that 5th level brings to the group, since I am playing on Tactician this time around. I've multi classed a few characters (Warlock seems to be a serious go to multi class for me), but the ones that have stayed single classed are performing ... noticeably better than others. I am having Astarion go with Bard/Fighter (Sword/Knight) this time around and he is 4 bard/1 fighter right now. Let me tell you that having him Dual-wield hand crossbows with the Sharpshooter feat, and his ability to drop Faerie Fire to give himself advantage ... simply erases enemies. I am seriously tempted to have him dip that 2nd fighter level to grab Action surge just to be able to do it in one round (or I could take 5 bard for haste... hmmm)

Anyone know, off the top of their head, if there are any weapons in the game (aside from Wyll's special weapon) that gets to use the casting stat to attack with? I am aware of the Pact of the Blade (and intend to use it) and Shillelagh but I remember seeing another one in the game that I can't quite recall the name.

EDIT: Found it. Sylvan Scimitar. Jaheira starts with it.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-08, 11:36 AM

I've downloaded a mod that runs a script every so often to check if there is any 'end of day' dialogue content available and it puts an exclamation point above the main character's head, just like when your companions want to chat with you. I can certainly attest that there is a good amount of dialogue that I have missed because of how little I rested in Act 1. For example, I didn't get the owl bear cub to come to my camp until mid-way through Act 2 and in my Dark Urge run with this mod, the cub has arrived before I've set off the explore the Underdark/Mountain Pass.
If it help any, you can 'long rest' without consuming any food but won't really get the full effects. No HP, no recharged short rests, some (I think up to half, not exceeding half) of spell slot recharging. It will end any 'until long rest' effects you have running though.

TBH, I'm resting more because I do not want to be stuck casting cantrips like I had Gale do in my previous runs than out of fear of missing content. Act 1 is mostly variations of "Wanna bang?" (not with the voice of Mark Meer, unfortunately) that I skip as fast as I can.

And food is plentiful enough, so I'm not that concerned about not being able to full rest every time I wish.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-08, 12:09 PM

Yeah, I cleaned out most of the Act 1 map and then just partial rested until I hit Karlach's 'darn it I can't bang' and Shadowheart's 'we're not gonna bang yet' scene. I'm doing everything I can to avoid triggering Lae'zel's.

Honestly I find Karlach's frustrated desire for physical intimacy the most refreshing of the scenes I've seen. I'll probably end up doing her romance rather than Shadowheart's, and not just because of her sexy burn scars!

Then I threw a carafe of water at Karlach and went to the party. If I can find a magic ice bottle I might throw that aat her too. And yes, I'm hanging onto the other piece of infernal iron until I reach the inn.

Eldonauran

2023-10-08, 12:53 PM

And food is plentiful enough, so I'm not that concerned about not being able to full rest every time I wish.On Tactician difficulty, it takes 80 supplies to long rest. I might be carrying around 500+ right now, but I still feel the pinch.

Act 1 is mostly variations of "Wanna bang?" (not with the voice of Mark Meer, unfortunately) that I skip as fast as I can.Playing the Dark Urge this time around, and a Paladin at that, I am seeing a LOT more attention from ALL of the companions. Karlach is telling me to have fun until we figure out how to cool her off more permanently. Lae'zel is telling me that she'll decide if and when to come claim me. Shadowheart answered 'not tonight' when asked if she'd be interested in sharing. Gale is giving me those heavy lidded glances. Even Wyll is making comments, and openly praising me joining the 'one eye club' and saying its a dashing look. And Astarion is blatantly flirting with me at every opportunity. My first go around, it was only just Lae'zel and Shadowheart.

The Tiefling party is going to be .. difficult. I can already feel Halsin's gaze on the back of my neck and he isn't even at camp yet.

Zevox

2023-10-08, 01:06 PM

Progress on my second run is coming along.
This time around, I made a point of heading south to the swamp before going to the Goblin camp. Last time I found that note that reveals Kagha was working with the Shadow Druids only after I'd already freed Halsin and resolved the issues with the Grove, and it wouldn't let me do anything with it, neither bring it to Halsin's attention nor confront Kagha about it. This time, getting it before doing that, I was able to confront Kagha about it, and kill her and her surprise Shadow Druid buddies without causing any other trouble at the Grove, which was nice. (Probably could've talked Kagha herself down, but I figure my Dark Urge Githyanki character would be less interested in that than in enjoying getting to kill someone that others will approve of her killing.)

And I made a point of making sure that I didn't alert the whole Goblin camp to my killing Priestess Gut this time, so I got to speak with the rest of the camp. Though I don't feel I missed much last time. Dror Ragzlin is nothing interesting, really, and Minthara is too thoroughly under the Absolute's thrall to get any idea of what she's actually like. And I'm not going the route of recruiting her this time - looked up how that goes, and yeah, I'd need to playing a fully dedicated evil run to do that. You lose out on too many quests, to say nothing of Karlach and Wyll (and maybe Gale), taking that route, and you still don't even get to recruit Minthara until midway through Act 2. That's a pretty crappy deal.

I am having some godawful luck with the fights in the Goblin camp though. I've never seen so many turns of my characters just missing every attack before.

Okay! 5e lore time:

Outer space and the Astral are different, but the line blurs once you get up there (a phenomenon known as Wildspace.) Essentially, the Astral is coterminous with the Material, and the barrier gets more... porous?... the higher up you go. This is the core principle behind how spelljamming works, which is canon across 5e.

There's a diagram in the recent Spelljammer book that helps to explain this concept:

[snip for space]

"Wildspace is where the Astral Plane overlaps with the Material Plane. Creatures and objects in Wildspace age normally and exist on both planes simultaneously. This overlap enables creatures to use spells such as teleport and teleportation circle to travel from Wildspace to a nearby world, or vice versa." - SAIS Ch. 2, "Astral Adventures."

The "Realmspace" Wildspace system is where Toril (FR) can be found, Doomspace is Athas (Dark Sun) etc.
That's all only if you use the Spelljammer stuff, which I can't stand personally. The 5e DMG gives the default cosmology, which is essentially the Great Wheel, and is where I was getting the information I gave from.

On another note... I have certainly noticed the power spike that 5th level brings to the group, since I am playing on Tactician this time around. I've multi classed a few characters (Warlock seems to be a serious go to multi class for me), but the ones that have stayed single classed are performing ... noticeably better than others. I am having Astarion go with Bard/Fighter (Sword/Knight) this time around and he is 4 bard/1 fighter right now. Let me tell you that having him Dual-wield hand crossbows with the Sharpshooter feat, and his ability to drop Faerie Fire to give himself advantage ... simply erases enemies. I am seriously tempted to have him dip that 2nd fighter level to grab Action surge just to be able to do it in one round (or I could take 5 bard for haste... hmmm)
Yeah, I'm multiclassing Wyll this time since I can't bring myself to have him not have Warlock levels, and I want to do something different with the characters than last time*. Warlock/Paladin, since that's the popular thing and it works on him. But I've never used multiclassing in 5e before, and I definitely feel the delay in getting the level 4 ASI already, and I feel like the delay in getting extra attack/3rd-level spells at level 5 will hurt even more. I don't like it.

*For others, I'm doing:
- Lae'zel: Eldritch Knight instead of Battlemaster, and two-weapon fighting instead of two-handed weapons.
- Shadowheart: Paladin (Vengeance).
- Gale: Cleric (Knowledge).
- Astarion: Rogue (Arcane Trickster). (I switched him to Bard last time.)
- Karlach: Monk (Open Hand).

Probably will still hardly use the later companions, aside from for their personal quests.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-08, 01:13 PM

Most of the companions REALLY LIKE you being a stereotypical paladin, even Shadowheart. Wyll in particular, as I've said before he's got the basic personality and his sense of theatricality means he'd be yelling 'stand back, I'll take care of the monster' if you weren't beating him to the punch (plus he's better serving as a caster than front liner). Lae'zel doesn't, but she's got really low standards (I'm 90% sure she'd sleep with any party member bar Wyll if they asked).

OTOH I've not got Gale high enough for sex due to having Wyll in my party most of the time, and I've not worked out how to actually get on the Blade's romance route. Not that I mind much, both of them won't let me fool around with the poly bear dad.

It's not just me who gets the feeling that Halsin has kids, but it's just their mothers' year to have custody, right?

Eldonauran

2023-10-08, 01:36 PM

Lae'zel doesn't, but she's got really low standards (I'm 90% sure she'd sleep with any party member bar Wyll if they asked).Lae'zel openly made comments about Wyll looking especially tempting during my last play through, at the Tiefling camp party, when I made it clear I wasn't interested. The morning after, you can bring up the subject and she says she made the attempt but Wyll wanted to 'talk' more than anything. She looked ... slightly disappointed and yet intrigued. Nothing ever came up about it later on... but I kind of ship it.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-08, 01:49 PM

Psyren

2023-10-08, 02:37 PM

Lae'zel openly made comments about Wyll looking especially tempting during my last play through, at the Tiefling camp party, when I made it clear I wasn't interested. The morning after, you can bring up the subject and she says she made the attempt but Wyll wanted to 'talk' more than anything. She looked ... slightly disappointed and yet intrigued. Nothing ever came up about it later on... but I kind of ship it.

Wyll is very much a romantic and doesn't want to just randomly hook up. I do think he could get on with Lae'zel well given time - but for me, there's no better match for him than Karlach.

As for Lae'zel... is it bad that I wouldn't mind seeing her get together with Shadowheart? There's a lot of passion there :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

That's all only if you use the Spelljammer stuff, which I can't stand personally.

It's not about what *I'm* using; Lae'zel specifically refers to "Realmspace" when she's talking about her people, which is a Spelljammer term. "Nautiloids" are also from Spelljammer. Neither concept comes from the DMG.

EDIT: Oh right, she even specifically references a Spelljammer in that same conversation. It's canon to the game.

Yeah, I'm multiclassing Wyll this time since I can't bring myself to have him not have Warlock levels, and I want to do something different with the characters than last time*. Warlock/Paladin, since that's the popular thing and it works on him. But I've never used multiclassing in 5e before, and I definitely feel the delay in getting the level 4 ASI already, and I feel like the delay in getting extra attack/3rd-level spells at level 5 will hurt even more. I don't like it.

I got everyone a level 1 feat which has been really nice and fits with modern 5e as well as its upcoming successor. Even sticking just to the feats that I know are allowed for level 1 characters has been a great boon.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-08, 02:57 PM

Wyll is very much a romantic and doesn't want to just randomly hook up. I do think he could get on with Lae'zel well given time - but for me, there's no better match for him than Karlach.

As for Lae'zel... is it bad that I wouldn't mind seeing her get together with Shadowheart? There's a lot of passion there :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Lae'zel and Shadowheart that both went through the 3 acts of character development available to them are my favourite ships. They literally both are people that.. have to figure what do they want for themselves for the first time in their lives.

And they both realized their respective prejudices against each others were hardly genuine, and more constructs imposed on them.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-08, 03:17 PM

On Tactician difficulty, it takes 80 supplies to long rest. I might be carrying around 500+ right now, but I still feel the pinch.

I play on Tactician as well and never really had any problem with food, but I'm also someone who looks inside every crate around.
Besides, if I'll ever need food I'll just steal...ahem, "buy" from some vendor.

Psyren

2023-10-08, 03:24 PM

Lae'zel and Shadowheart that both went through the 3 acts of character development available to them are my favourite ships. They literally both are people that.. have to figure what do they want for themselves for the first time in their lives.

And they both realized their respective prejudices against each others were hardly genuine, and more constructs imposed on them.

Exactly!

I play on Tactician as well and never really had any problem with food, but I'm also someone who looks inside every crate around.
Besides, if I'll ever need food I'll just steal...ahem, "buy" from some vendor.

With the latest update, Volo sells food in camp as well IIRC

Bunny Commando

2023-10-08, 03:30 PM

With the latest update, Volo sells food in camp as well IIRC

Doesn't he leave as soon as he's done "researching" your condition? I generally let him use me as a test subject as soon as possible, given how good the bonus he gives you is.

Psyren

2023-10-08, 03:54 PM

Doesn't he leave as soon as he's done "researching" your condition? I generally let him use me as a test subject as soon as possible, given how good the bonus he gives you is.

Yes but he can come back later on depending on your actions.

Which reminds me - my latest mod paints over his "gift" to match my pre-existing set :smallsmile:

Bunny Commando

2023-10-08, 04:03 PM

Yes but he can come back later on depending on your actions.

Yes, but by then I have little use of him as a merchant unfortunately.

By the way, does anyone know of a mod that highlight scrolls of spells you already know in vendors' screens? Probably exists, but haven't found it on Nexus.

Zevox

2023-10-08, 04:54 PM

It's not about what *I'm* using; Lae'zel specifically refers to "Realmspace" when she's talking about her people, which is a Spelljammer term. "Nautiloids" are also from Spelljammer. Neither concept comes from the DMG.

EDIT: Oh right, she even specifically references a Spelljammer in that same conversation. It's canon to the game.
Blech, that's right. I've been trying to ignore that, since it will only negatively impact my enjoyment of an otherwise very good game.

I got everyone a level 1 feat which has been really nice and fits with modern 5e as well as its upcoming successor. Even sticking just to the feats that I know are allowed for level 1 characters has been a great boon.
Oh, I rarely use ASIs on feats myself. Usually only one out of the three. Mainly I want to get everyone's primary stat up to 20.

Doesn't he leave as soon as he's done "researching" your condition? I generally let him use me as a test subject as soon as possible, given how good the bonus he gives you is.
He does? That's a surprise. I figured he was supposed to stick around camp the whole game.

Personally, I can't imagine myself ever letting him do his thing there. It's too obviously a terrible idea, and I feel like I'd need to be playing a complete idiot to go through with it. Regardless of the end result, which I am aware of.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-08, 05:30 PM

So, the Astral Sea is space or not? Can we use the Spelljammer canonicity precedent?

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-08, 06:16 PM

So, the Astral Sea is space or not? Can we use the Spelljammer canonicity precedent?

In order: yes, maybe.

The existence of Boo suggests that Spelljammer cosmology has always applied, but the old games would have been in canon with 2e. Which I think brings us up to four changes of cosmology.

Psyren

2023-10-08, 07:35 PM

So, the Astral Sea is space or not? Can we use the Spelljammer canonicity precedent?

The Space around a planet is Material, but if you get far out enough (Wildspace) it becomes both/porous. Spelljammers are for both space travel and planar travel.

Blech, that's right. I've been trying to ignore that, since it will only negatively impact my enjoyment of an otherwise very good game.

I genuinely don't understand why, but okay.

Personally, I can't imagine myself ever letting him do his thing there. It's too obviously a terrible idea, and I feel like I'd need to be playing a complete idiot to go through with it. Regardless of the end result, which I am aware of.

I justified it by being Resisting Dark Urge, and thus convinced my tadpole was somehow worse than everyone else's, and willing to go to nearly any extreme to get it out. I even sprung Sazza from the grove (after the Alfira incident) because she thought Priestess Gut knew of a unique way to handle it - but discovering that she herself was tadpoled, I abandoned that avenue.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-08, 07:38 PM

Personally, I can't imagine myself ever letting him do his thing there. It's too obviously a terrible idea, and I feel like I'd need to be playing a complete idiot to go through with it. Regardless of the end result, which I am aware of.

I have to be honest, the first time i did that was during a "lol" playthrough where i wanted to see how doing the Durge's act 2 subquest would turn out, So I decided to go full speed ahead with all the stupid decisions i could make.

Lord Ruby34

2023-10-08, 08:08 PM

I have to be honest, the first time i did that was during a "lol" playthrough where i wanted to see how doing the Durge's act 2 subquest would turn out, So I decided to go full speed ahead with all the stupid decisions i could make.

The idea of a surgical extraction isn't completely terrible. The problem is that Volo clearly has no idea what he was doing. Now, what they should have done was kill you, take the tadpole out, and have Withers resurrect you afterwards.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-08, 08:16 PM

Psyren

2023-10-08, 08:27 PM

I just plonked an 8 in INT and went 'I would make it lower if they'd let me'.

I'd have put it in WIS but that's actually a decent save (also used by one of my preferred classes).

But yeah, I'll definitely get the mod which gives me my red eye back. It actually looked kind of cool when it looked like an artificial eye, but now it looks like a boring normal eye with blue-green central heterochromia. As a central heterochromatic in real life it's cool that the option is there even if you have to pick through the colours to find it, but I want the artificial eye back.

The one I use is called Unvisual Volo's Eye. It works retroactively, as well as with the camp mirror if you want to change your eye color(s) later on.

EDIT: Almost forgot, in response to an earlier question about whether you can give away both your eyes - if you have Volo's eye in, Ethel refuses to help you, so no second fake eye. I haven't tried things in the other direction, but presumably if you get Ethel's eye first and then Volo's, hers is the one he performs amateur lasik on.

ETA: from a story perspective isn't the MC under a no resurrections rule in Act 1? You know, due to the whole Bhaalspawn thing.

I don't think so, considering that Astarion can kill you but you can be brought back just fine, and there will be commentary on it, i.e. narratively you were actually dead.

Zevox

2023-10-08, 09:01 PM

I genuinely don't understand why, but okay.
Short version: I like my fantasy (especially D&D) medieval, and my spaceships in sci-fi. Never should the two meet.

I even sprung Sazza from the grove (after the Alfira incident) because she thought Priestess Gut knew of a unique way to handle it - but discovering that she herself was tadpoled, I abandoned that avenue.
I actually accidentally got her killed - encouraged the Tiefling woman mourning the one that got killed in the initial Goblin attack to seek revenge on the Goblins for it. Figured that with my Dark Urge character, while she's generally well-intentioned, she would have a tendency to resort to violence quickly when it seems warranted, in the hopes that this will sate her urges without them being used on innocents, and that this mindset would reflect on the kind of advice she'd give. I'd also completely forgotten about the one captive Goblin the woman would have to conveniently take that revenge on.

On the other hand though, I also actually used the Necromancy of Thay book this time, so free Speak with Dead, and got the quest to speak to Priestess Gut out of that Goblin that way anyway.

The idea of a surgical extraction isn't completely terrible. The problem is that Volo clearly has no idea what he was doing.
Yup. It'd be one thing if it was a trained healer with years of experience and clerical magic they can use to patch you up offering to do something like that, but considering Volo's response to asking if he's ever done this before is "I've thought about doing it often," trusting him with it is pretty clearly asking for a Darwin Award.

Psyren

2023-10-08, 09:42 PM

Short version: I like my fantasy (especially D&D) medieval, and my spaceships in sci-fi. Never should the two meet.

I can understand that desire in other D&D campaigns - but this one is about the main character waking up on a crashing alien spaceship, so I'm not sure why a different alien mentioning tjjhe existence of spaceships is offputting, is all I'm saynig.

I actually accidentally got her killed - encouraged the Tiefling woman mourning the one that got killed in the initial Goblin attack to seek revenge on the Goblins for it. Figured that with my Dark Urge character, while she's generally well-intentioned, she would have a tendency to resort to violence quickly when it seems warranted, in the hopes that this will sate her urges without them being used on innocents, and that this mindset would reflect on the kind of advice she'd give. I'd also completely forgotten about the one captive Goblin the woman would have to conveniently take that revenge on.
jjj
On the other hand though, I also actually used the Necromancy of Thay book this time, so free Speak with Dead, and got the quest to speak to Priestess Gut out of that Goblin that way anyway.

Understandable - but as I mentioned, I'm resisting the Urge, and in fact getting that tiefling to calm down is explicitly a resist moment :smallsmile:

I will say there's an unlimited-use Speak With Ddead amulet very early on if that was your main reason for engaging with the book.

Yup. It'd be one thing if it was a trained healer with years of experience and clerical magic they can use to patch you up offering to do something like that, but considering Volo's response to asking if he's ever done this before is "I've thought about doing it often," trusting him with it is pretty clearly asking for a Darwin Award.

Eh, I had my Darwin Revoker standing 15 feet away :smallcool:

Zevox

2023-10-08, 09:58 PM

I can understand that desire in other D&D campaigns - but this one is about the main character waking up on a crashing alien spaceship, so I'm not sure why a different alien mentioning tjjhe existence of spaceships is offputting, is all I'm saynig.
You're making the mistaken assumption that the Nautiloid at the start isn't part of what I meant when I said that.

Understandable - but as I mentioned, I'm resisting the Urge, and in fact getting that tiefling to calm down is explicitly a resist moment :smallsmile:

I will say there's an unlimited-use Speak With Ddead amulet very early on if that was your main reason for engaging with the book.
No, I got the amulet too (though that I thought it was once per day, not unlimited?). Used the book because I destroyed it the first time, and I could see this character deciding to see what it could offer, given how many things she's in dire need of help controlling (Tadpole, Dark Urge, Wild Magic). And it's nice not having to have to switch the amulet out with whichever one I wind up using more generally this time around.

Keltest

2023-10-08, 10:06 PM

Speak with Dead, at least from the amulet, is technically a 1/day thing, but you get the ability to retarget it on a new applicable corpse, which are also conveniently highlighted in spooky greenish light for you if they have anything to say. Presumably its another quality of life feature to make you not have to burn a billion spell slots to interrogate dead people.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-08, 10:10 PM

So, what i dont understand is why we cant just accept that Illithid/Githyanki things are basically Space Stuff. They are the "aliens" of DnD, but with just sufficient fantasy twist to make them unique compared to other sci fi races.

Warforged are the Robots.

Underwater menaces are Aboleths.

Its a bit weird and wacky, but kitchen sink is what DnD always been about, if you go to the edges. Theres place for super traditional medieval statis (Cormyr) but theres plenty of other stuff that pushes the envelope.

Im happy they decided to explore the more "cosmic" side of DnD. They kept referring to it in the other Baldur's Gate, and it always seemed more gratuitous reference to crazy stuff than actually part of the story.

....wait a minute, is Volo the one who gives you the silver sword at the end of Act 2 of BG2 and lands you in trouble with the Githyankis?!

Psyren

2023-10-08, 10:23 PM

You're making the mistaken assumption that the Nautiloid at the start isn't part of what I meant when I said that.

Well, if it's any consolation, BG4 probably won't do the mindflayer thing again?

(Alternatively... they'll go whole hog into Spelljammer and pick up wherever Lae'zel's story left off :smalltongue:)

No, I got the amulet too (though that I thought it was once per day, not unlimited?).

It's 1/day but when you use it, a new ability appears on your bar that lets you swap the activation to a new corpse at-will until you long rest, at which point the amulet recharges anyway. So it's functionally/effectively unlimited-use.

Zevox

2023-10-08, 10:38 PM

So, what i dont understand is why we cant just accept that Illithid/Githyanki things are basically Space Stuff.
Not we; me. That is not to my tastes. Illithids are fine to me as a weird kind of psychic monster race; Githyanki are fine as a race native to another plane of existence. Try to turn them into Space Stuff, and I cease to be fine with it.

Same with Warforged, except there's no way to make me fine with those. The use of magitech in Eberron in general is a big part of why I never touched that setting.

....wait a minute, is Volo the one who gives you the silver sword at the end of Act 2 of BG2 and lands you in trouble with the Githyankis?!
:smallconfused:
Silver sword at the end of Act 2? What? The only Silver Sword I got was given to Lae'zel by Voss when we came to inform him that we had the Orphic Hammer, which was near the end of Act 3.

It's 1/day but when you use it, a new ability appears on your bar that lets you swap the activation to a new corpse at-will until you long rest, at which point the amulet recharges anyway. So it's functionally/effectively unlimited-use.
Ah. Couple of things to say about that: one, the new ability doesn't appear on my bar (= radial wheel; console player) automatically, I need to add it manually. I did notice that in my first play-through, when I had "recast Speak with Dead" as a status floating above my name in the lower corner of the screen and went looking to find out what that meant, but I assumed that was because the initial casting had failed on the corpse I targeted at the time, not because that was just standard. I've already seen that it's standard with the Necromancy of Thay version, but didn't think that necessarily meant the same applied to the amulet. Good to know.

Psyren

2023-10-08, 11:50 PM

:smallconfused:
Silver sword at the end of Act 2? What? The only Silver Sword I got was given to Lae'zel by Voss when we came to inform him that we had the Orphic Hammer, which was near the end of Act 3.

He's talking about BG2 I think, i.e. over a century ago in-universe.

Ah. Couple of things to say about that: one, the new ability doesn't appear on my bar (= radial wheel; console player) automatically, I need to add it manually. I did notice that in my first play-through, when I had "recast Speak with Dead" as a status floating above my name in the lower corner of the screen and went looking to find out what that meant, but I assumed that was because the initial casting had failed on the corpse I targeted at the time, not because that was just standard. I've already seen that it's standard with the Necromancy of Thay version, but didn't think that necessarily meant the same applied to the amulet. Good to know.

You can even take the amulet off, use another one, put it back on and you'll regain the ability!

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-09, 05:45 AM

Bunny Commando

2023-10-09, 07:02 AM

Jophiel

2023-10-09, 07:31 AM

Not we; me. That is not to my tastes. Illithids are fine to me as a weird kind of psychic monster race; Githyanki are fine as a race native to another plane of existence. Try to turn them into Space Stuff, and I cease to be fine with it.
Yeah, I've never been into it either and I've been around long enough to be there for the start of Spelljammer. I just prefer my mindflayers as weird dungeon basement monsters and never really cared much or gave much though to Gith* at all aside from "Thing on the cover of my 1e Fiend Folio". I just never found anything about the setting to be compelling and was turned off by the "lol random" elements.

It says something that I did think the opening cinematic were nifty, but then the ships just teleported about rather than sailing the High Astral Seas of Outer Space.

Eldan

2023-10-09, 08:28 AM

I never had much of a problem doing obviously stupid stuff in BG3 because (IMHO, of course) the game itself does not want you to take it seriously.
Sure, the game is quite dark at times; yet the game has so many interactions that make me roll my eyes while smiling (Speak with Animals is responsible for so many of them) that a foolish idea like letting Volo doing...well, anything, does not sound so foolish anymore.

Yeah, that's how I took it. A lot of the things going on feel a lot like the DM writing a serious story, the players absolutely goofing off while playing and the DM shrugging and running with it.

"How about we grab an ice pick and just pull the tadpole out?" is absolutely something I can hear players say.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-09, 09:13 AM

Ive just ran on "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", but sort of in reverse.

Githyanki and the Illithid that preceded them travel and have known countless of other worlds in the far reaches of the Astral plane. Yes, they are a threat, but we are but one world in their universe-spanning conflict.

It's a flair thing. A theme. It doesnt have to actually be spaceship to take the narrative role of aliens and spaceship.

Jophiel

2023-10-09, 10:12 AM

I mostly ran on "Before it got to grate on me, I was happily interacting with skeletons and goblins in the fantasy milieu I had signed up for and could ignore the Spelljammer-style stuff I dislike"

95% of the game is classic fantasy "Find the keys to unlock the door to the final boss" and I didn't find the Githyanki interesting enough to be curious about the mechanics of their space/plane-faring empires.

Zevox

2023-10-09, 10:31 AM

He's talking about BG2 I think, i.e. over a century ago in-universe.
Ah, I see, I missed that he mentioned BG2 specifically. My mistake.

Warforged are amazing, and IIRC were added to the Realms at some point so I'm hoping we get them as a DLC race at some point*.
No, blessedly, as many thing as they screwed up with the Realms since 4e, that is not one of them. Warforged remain an Eberron thing only.

I'm also all for spaceships in fantasy, who doesn't like Star Wars,
I like Star Wars (although these days that comes with many caveats...) just fine, but I don't want it in my D&D. And heck, I dislike when heavier fantasy elements get stuck into Star Wars as well, such as the Family of force-gods, or the World Between Worlds, or the Nightsisters being able to straight-up make zombies. To name a few that come to mind for no particular reason.

Yeah, I've never been into it either and I've been around long enough to be there for the start of Spelljammer. I just prefer my mindflayers as weird dungeon basement monsters and never really cared much or gave much though to Gith* at all aside from "Thing on the cover of my 1e Fiend Folio". I just never found anything about the setting to be compelling and was turned off by the "lol random" elements.

It says something that I did think the opening cinematic were nifty, but then the ships just teleported about rather than sailing the High Astral Seas of Outer Space.
Haven't been playing as long (started with 3.5e), but yeah, that's where I'm at too. To me, Mind Flayers are Underdark-dwelling psionic monsters with a hive mind and a tendency to enslave other races and eat their brains, and that works fine as a monster race. And up until literally this game, my experience with Githyanki has been looking over their lore in a couple of books, not finding them that interesting, moving on and not giving them much thought thereafter. And while I like Lae'zel and her story in this game, I don't think even that has done too much to change my overall view on them, honestly.

Psyren

2023-10-09, 10:50 AM

Yeah, that's how I took it. A lot of the things going on feel a lot like the DM writing a serious story, the players absolutely goofing off while playing and the DM shrugging and running with it.

"How about we grab an ice pick and just pull the tadpole out?" is absolutely something I can hear players say.

I agree that this works from a D&D wackiness perspective, but as I mentioned, I truly believe it's possible to take Volo's offer seriously in-universe without metagaming, or being a clown, fool, or lunatic too.

I'm playing my Good Durge as highly desperate, particularly in the wake of the inexplicable camp murder in Act 1. He trusts his friends more than anyone, most of whom believe his tadpole is uniquely to blame, and wants to do everything in his power to avoid hurting them or any other innocents. He's thus pursued every single hook to remove the tadpole that he came across in Act 1 and found them all lacking:

Raphael: I actually pursued his offer - or at least to hear out the terms before committing - but no matter which dialogue option you select, he refuses to help you in Act 1 anyway. By the time he shows up again, I'll know that my Urges aren't connected to the tadpole, and that it actually might be helping me suppress them, and can therefore tell him to get stuffed without any kind of metagaming.

Nettie: Her only cure is death, aka Plan D. I took the wyvern poison with me as a last resort, but my Urge gleefully encouraged me to spike the goblins' punch with it instead.

Halsin: Proved unable to help, but gave me the Act 2 Moonrise hook.

Priestess Gut: Discovering that she herself was tadpoled, I couldn't trust her to be genuine about wanting to remove mine. She was also on both Halsin and Zevlor's hit lists in order to save the grove and all the innocents dwelling there - three lives for dozens more, including among the goblins themselves.

Volo: See below

Auntie Ethel: I went to her hut fully expecting to take her up on her offer, but met Mayrina's brothers first (I knocked them out rather than killing them - the game acknowledges this!), and the similarly Good Wyll and Karlach insist on having me tell her about them right away, which makes Ethel abandon all pretense, reveal her true form, and attack us. Even if I hadn't warned Mayrina, Ethel wouldn't have helped me anyway, because I already had Volo's eye by this point, not knowing that my eye would have been Ethel's price in the first place.

Githyanki Creche: This is his best and final remaining option, but he will defer to Lae'zel getting purified first as they are her people, and then save her from the zaith'isk at the last minute. It is here he'll definitively conclude that (a) the tadpole can't be removed without killing us, and (b) his Urges aren't tied to it anyway.

Underdark Options: Thanks to Halsin's tip, we have no reason to consider going down there until we're on our way to Moonrise, by which point I'll have already gone under the ice pick for Volo.

With every other alternative in the Act having failed, Volo's Lasik is thus seemingly the only option worthy of consideration, no matter how dangerous/foolhardy it may otherwise seem.

By the time Act 2 rolls around, he'll have learned the truth about the Urge and the tadpole, or at least enough of it that he'll be okay leaving the tadpole alone for the time being.

Yeah, I've never been into it either and I've been around long enough to be there for the start of Spelljammer. I just prefer my mindflayers as weird dungeon basement monsters and never really cared much or gave much though to Gith* at all aside from "Thing on the cover of my 1e Fiend Folio". I just never found anything about the setting to be compelling and was turned off by the "lol random" elements.

It says something that I did think the opening cinematic were nifty, but then the ships just teleported about rather than sailing the High Astral Seas of Outer Space.

I mean, of course the nautiloids weren't sailing the Astral Sea - everywhere they teleported to in the intro was still within the bounds of Realmspace, so there was no need for them to head out there.

...

I totally agree that spelljammer stuff shouldn't be part of every D&D campaign - but if they were going to put this stuff in any Baldur's Gate, this was definitely the one to do it in.

Besides - if the OGL stuff taught us one thing, it's that the mechanics of 5e are not locked down enough to allow WotC to demand particularly favorable licensing terms for their use - especially now that they ended up having to release them to Creative Commons this year, removing any possible gray area about using those mechanics in a video game that might have existed previously. Whatever even mildly-shaky ground things like Solasta or Knights of the Chalice or Kingmaker/WotR had been operating on has been titanium reinforced; if WotC wants to get developers to the table with a lucrative licensing deal, their best bet now is to lean into the parts of their IP they exclusively control. That means mindflayers, beholders, spelljammers, named characters/deities/locations etc.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-10, 03:12 AM

Getting back into Act 2, and it's nice that one of the Harpers' first reaction is 'thank **** a PALADIN showed up'. It's also where the first major 'we didn't really plan for Small characters' moment turns up, with a goblet clipping through the table. Which means I'm also back into the 'wait until Karlach actually initiates her second romance scene' mode.

...I might double back to the Underdark, the Mountain Pass is really short.

Errorname

2023-10-10, 03:35 AM

Warforged are amazing, and IIRC were added to the Realms at some point so I'm hoping we get them as a DLC race at some point*. I'm also all for spaceships in fantasy, who doesn't like Star Wars, although I'm not a personal fan of nautiloids that's just a preference issue.

The problem with Warforged as a DLC race is that I imagine it would be quite a lot of work to implement them. They'd need entirely new assets and probably entirely new animations to account for how the robot would behave. It's not like something like a Goliath or an Aasimar where you can produce a passable result with the existing character creator, or something like a Hobgoblin where they'd have existing assets to build on. It'd be the same amount if not more work than what went into the Dragonborn.

That said I'd love to see them, although with what I've heard about Larian's development ethos it feels unlikely they'll make any post-launch races. If you wanted to have the same level of reactivity as the base races you'd need to bring back a lot of voice actors.

Psyren

2023-10-10, 09:55 AM

I mean, Warforged and Spelljammer are two very different branches on the science fantasy tree; one doesn't necessarily instantiate the other, especially in FR.

Zevox

2023-10-10, 10:28 AM

I mean, Warforged and Spelljammer are two very different branches on the science fantasy tree; one doesn't necessarily instantiate the other, especially in FR.
Also, as previously mentioned, Warforged are very much not canon to the Realms, or anywhere other than Eberron, so there's no way that's happening.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-10, 10:41 AM

Also, as previously mentioned, Warforged are very much not canon to the Realms, or anywhere other than Eberron, so there's no way that's happening.

Oh, they're definitely a thing in Nentir Vale and like every setting I make. Plus they're cool and they s game has already changed canon on one topic.

Zevox

2023-10-10, 11:01 AM

Oh, they're definitely a thing in Nentir Vale and like every setting I make. Plus they're cool and they s game has already changed canon on one topic.
Haven't heard of Nentir Vale before, but looking it up, that's another setting entirely, nothing to do with the Realms. And obviously anything can be in anyone's homebrew settings but that's irrelevent here.

Also, no they're not and no it hasn't.

BRC

2023-10-10, 11:11 AM

I could see a "Sentient Construct" DLC companion (probably not a Warforged specifically, but we encounter a decent number of constructs with various degrees of sentience), but I doubt it would work as a Player character. The presence of the tadpole and threat of Ceremorphosis is central to the game's story.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-10, 12:28 PM

I don't see a Warforged DLC happening, Larian does not have a history of releasing DLCs and if they have any plans of doing so for BG3, my bet is that they'll aim low and release something that won't require much effort on their part.

But I would love to see a BG4 (I would be surprised Larian and WotC are not already talking about it) with more variety in terms of races (Warforged included, canon be damned) and more magitech, I loved the Gortash-related quests in BG3.

Psyren

2023-10-10, 12:30 PM

I agree that Warforged as a race/culture are definitely not present in the Realms, but that doesn't mean some analogous construct race with Warforged statistics couldn't be. IIRC, the Raumathar Empire/Raumvirans mass-produced construct soldiers for war during their peak, so some of those gaining sapience and persisting to the present day doesn't seem implausible. Similarly, I could see Lantan producing a few Autognomes that obtain independence.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-10, 12:33 PM

Yhea, sorry i didnt meant to open the Warforged can of worms.

Also, if there were Warforged in FR, it would make the Steel Watch a much lesser impressive achievement.

I still believe DLCs should about exploring the npcs more with their own pocket adventures.

Psyren

2023-10-10, 01:11 PM

BRC

2023-10-10, 01:47 PM

So I have a question Re: The Astral Prism

So, Vlaakith and wants it because it contains the "Destroy my empire of lies" button, also it was stolen from her and she wants it back.

But it was stolen by The Emperor, who was sent out as a slave to the Absolute to recover it. Did I miss something explaining why the Absolutists wanted it so badly? Like, it's a weapon that can be used against them, as it can be used against any elder brain, but I feel like it's too important to Vlaakith, and it's results (breaking hive-mind control) are too unpredictable for her to ever pull out as a weapon. Do they want it so they can free Orpheus and launch a Githyanki Civil War so the Gith cause them less trouble when they spin up their tamed mind-flayer empire?

Cikomyr2

2023-10-10, 02:13 PM

The Steel Watch are just more complex mass-produced golems that are under Gortash's complete control using the tadpole tech. Whether some Warforged-equivalent existed in the setting or not, he would have pursued their creation, because Warforged have entirely too much pesky free will for a Banite.

You dont need to explain the game for me. The details behind the Steel Watch is not known to the public, and if Warforged were a Thing i dont think anyone would be amazed by the Gondian's construction of the Steel Watch.

Psyren

2023-10-10, 03:15 PM

You dont need to explain the game for me. The details behind the Steel Watch is not known to the public, and if Warforged were a Thing i dont think anyone would be amazed by the Gondian's construction of the Steel Watch.

I wasn't singling you out; my comments were more general. Gortash would have sought to create his own legion of eternally loyal/brutal enforcers regardless of which races were or weren't playable in the game - because that's the kind of thing any Chosen of Bane in his position would strive to do.

So I have a question Re: The Astral Prism

So, Vlaakith and wants it because it contains the "Destroy my empire of lies" button, also it was stolen from her and she wants it back.

But it was stolen by The Emperor, who was sent out as a slave to the Absolute to recover it. Did I miss something explaining why the Absolutists wanted it so badly? Like, it's a weapon that can be used against them, as it can be used against any elder brain, but I feel like it's too important to Vlaakith, and it's results (breaking hive-mind control) are too unpredictable for her to ever pull out as a weapon. Do they want it so they can free Orpheus and launch a Githyanki Civil War so the Gith cause them less trouble when they spin up their tamed mind-flayer empire?

This is touched on in Act 3 via Shadowheart's quest:

When you meet Mother Superior Viconia, you learn that she caught wind of the Absolute Cult because it was hoovering up the kind of disaffected people that would normally be ripe for Sharran recruitment. She somehow learned that the artefact was the only thing the cult's leaders feared as being able to disrupt their plans,(there are some tortured Githyanki corpses in the Sharran enclave to show how she did that) hence her sending Shadowheart and a group of other Sharrans to retrieve it - against Shar's wishes, or at the very least without being explicitly ordered to do so.

What I don't recall with clarity is how the Absolutists learned of the existence of the Prism, in order to send their agents (first among them the Emperor) to retrieve it in the first place. The Emperor claimed not to know either.

BRC

2023-10-10, 03:28 PM

This is touched on in Act 3 via Shadowheart's quest:

When you meet Mother Superior Viconia, you learn that she caught wind of the Absolute Cult because it was hoovering up the kind of disaffected people that would normally be ripe for Sharran recruitment. She somehow learned that the artefact was the only thing the cult's leaders feared as being able to disrupt their plans,(there are some tortured Githyanki corpses in the Sharran enclave to show how she did that) hence her sending Shadowheart and a group of other Sharrans to retrieve it - against Shar's wishes, or at the very least without being explicitly ordered to do so.

What I don't recall with clarity is how the Absolutists learned of the existence of the Prism, in order to send their agents (first among them the Emperor) to retrieve it in the first place. The Emperor claimed not to know either.

I'm just wondering about the Absolutist's decision to go for it.

The Prism seems to have a pretty short range, The Emperor doesn't seem to be using it to free random Absolutists beyond your party, even though doing so would be quite useful at disrupting their plans. It seems like it's mostly limited to breaking a handful of would-be True Souls free of the Absolute's control, and even then they'd need to stay in proximity to the Prism.

Meanwhile, even revealing that the thing exists would be a HUGE risk for Vlaakith. I don't see a scenario where using it is worthwhile for her, especially considering the Githyanki's opinion towards those with mind flayer parasites. They're far more likely to just murder them than use Vlaakith's giant weakspot to temporarily free a few of them.

It seems like the chances of it being used against them go UP with sending agents to retrieve it.

I guess it's possible that the same sources that let them find the Crown mentioned "Well, there's ONE artifact that can break the control of an elder brain" and didn't give them many more details. They don't know about Orpheus, or why Vlaakith has it. They may assume that it's an anti-illithid weapon.

Zevox

2023-10-10, 04:09 PM

As far as DLC goes, I think the most reasonable option is probably additional subclasses. There's a number of them you could probably do mostly or entirely with existing assets, and even those that would need new assets would surely be a lot less work than most other options, while still having enough appeal that you'd probably get a lot of people wanting to buy them. Plus while there's a fair amount of class-specific dialogue, little of it seems to be subclass-specific, so there shouldn't be much concern there. Seems like almost a no-brainer to me.

Beyond that, additional races would be similarly obvious if it weren't for all the race-specific dialogue, which would be a lot of work - especially since some of the obvious options that are already in the game, like Goblinoids, would pretty clearly demand a fair amount of it. Additional scenarios, either separate from the main game or as new side-quests within it, would be cool, but almost certainly would be the most work for them, so I don't know if we should expect anything like that.

I agree that Warforged as a race/culture are definitely not present in the Realms, but that doesn't mean some analogous construct race with Warforged statistics couldn't be. IIRC, the Raumathar Empire/Raumvirans mass-produced construct soldiers for war during their peak, so some of those gaining sapience and persisting to the present day doesn't seem implausible. Similarly, I could see Lantan producing a few Autognomes that obtain independence.
The Raumuvirans used normal Golems from what I'm reading, there's no reason they'd be anything but that. And that was a millennia and a half ago in the timeline, so it'd be quite a stretch to "reveal" now that they had also created sentient ones.

Regardless though, I hope and pray that nothing like that ever happens. That'd be like 4e all over again to me.

Psyren

2023-10-10, 04:51 PM

The Raumuvirans used normal Golems from what I'm reading, there's no reason they'd be anything but that. And that was a millennia and a half ago in the timeline, so it'd be quite a stretch to "reveal" now that they had also created sentient ones.

Warforged were originally intended to be mindless, or at least single-minded, shock troops too. But with artifact-level magic, what you intend isn't always what you end up with.

I'm just wondering about the Absolutist's decision to go for it.

The Prism seems to have a pretty short range, The Emperor doesn't seem to be using it to free random Absolutists beyond your party, even though doing so would be quite useful at disrupting their plans. It seems like it's mostly limited to breaking a handful of would-be True Souls free of the Absolute's control, and even then they'd need to stay in proximity to the Prism.

Meanwhile, even revealing that the thing exists would be a HUGE risk for Vlaakith. I don't see a scenario where using it is worthwhile for her, especially considering the Githyanki's opinion towards those with mind flayer parasites. They're far more likely to just murder them than use Vlaakith's giant weakspot to temporarily free a few of them.

It seems like the chances of it being used against them go UP with sending agents to retrieve it.

I guess it's possible that the same sources that let them find the Crown mentioned "Well, there's ONE artifact that can break the control of an elder brain" and didn't give them many more details. They don't know about Orpheus, or why Vlaakith has it. They may assume that it's an anti-illithid weapon.

That source was most likely Gortash himself... but there's an awful lot I don't know:

After his parents sold him to a warlock (Korilla??) to pay their debts, he ended up in Raphael's House of Hope (how?) for an unclear amount of time. He's hyperintelligent, so it's likely that this is where he learned of the Crown, the Prism, and the Hammer and hatched his plan. He stole the former from Mephisto's vault (how?), escaped from Avernus (how?), met/befriended Bhaal's Chosen the Dark Urge and Myrkul's Chosen Ketheric (how?), learned of/enslaved the Elder Brain beneath Moonrise (from Ketheric?), kidnapped the Emperor (how?), brought him to Moonrise, and then set him on the trail of the Prism as the only counter to their plans. The Prism was somehow stored somewhere Vlaakith wasn't able to keep an eye on it (how?) and at some point, a good chunk of this was discovered by Viconia deVir and the church of Shar (how?)

I'm going to keep a sharper eye out for the answers the game gives to these questions in my new playthrough, but in my haste to reach the ending the last time around I glossed over quite a bit.

Zevox

2023-10-10, 05:20 PM

Warforged were originally intended to be mindless, or at least single-minded, shock troops too. But with artifact-level magic, what you intend isn't always what you end up with.
"Artifact-level magic?" Where are you getting that artifacts were involved with Raumathar's golems? As far as I can tell there's very few details about them, but what there is does not suggest there was any artifact involved, or that they were anything but a large force of ordinary Stone Golems.

LibraryOgre

2023-10-10, 05:23 PM

If you want Warforged in the Realms, 3.x era Thayans were doing wooden golems for sale. 6' tall, about 400# of oak. Wouldn't be quite the same as Eberron warforged, but it would be a way to work them in, if you liked.

Psyren

2023-10-10, 06:10 PM

"Artifact-level magic?" Where are you getting that artifacts were involved with Raumathar's golems?

You're taking what I'm saying too literally :smallsigh: What I mean is that they're one of those lost empires that could do stuff with magic that can't be done in present-day Faerun, so intelligent constructs being on that list isn't beyond the realm of possibility.

Errorname

2023-10-10, 06:31 PM

Zevox

2023-10-10, 07:19 PM

You're taking what I'm saying too literally :smallsigh: What I mean is that they're one of those lost empires that could do stuff with magic that can't be done in present-day Faerun, so intelligent constructs being on that list isn't beyond the realm of possibility.
I'm taking it that way because you're suggesting it as a way to add something that I hate into my favorite D&D setting, and I'm trying to at least get you to acknowledge that what you're suggesting is nothing but a retcon to justify the ends you're aiming for. At least be up front about that, don't try to pretend it fits with the setting lore as-is.

...but this is getting me too emotional here. Suffice to say this is one subject on which I have strong feelings, which would turn swiftly to rage should anything of this sort ever happen. I have never liked the idea of intelligent constructs in D&D-style fantasy, specifically because the're an obvious expy for robots. I have avoided Eberron in no small part because the Warforged are the setting's poster boys. I like the Forgotten Realms for various reasons, the fact that it includes nothing of the sort among them. I have no objection to them existing in D&D at large for those that do like them, but try to shoehorn them into the setting I do like and I get defensive and angry about it. So I am always going to be strongly opposed to putting anything Warforged-like into the Realms. If you want something like that, make an Eberron game. Or any other setting, for all I care, just not the Realms, please. WotC already ruined the setting for me once, I don't want that to happen again.

Honestly the most likely outcome I can see would be a standalone expansion that adds new races in the context of an entirely new campaign. That way you don't have to go in and add a bunch of new reactive dialogue to the already complete game.
Perhaps, although it feels like a long time since I've seen such a standalone expansion done. Feels like those have gone the way of the dinosaurs as DLC came to prominence.

Psyren

2023-10-10, 07:28 PM

I'm taking it that way because you're suggesting it as a way to add something that I hate into my favorite D&D setting, and I'm trying to at least get you to acknowledge that what you're suggesting is nothing but a retcon to justify the ends you're aiming for. At least be up front about that, don't try to pretend it fits with the setting lore as-is.

I'm suggesting it because I genuinely believe it can fit, not to be inflammatory. We don't have to agree.

I don't view "retcon" to be a dirty word either; any IP (system, setting, etc) that continues to get new material decades after it was originally conceived will invariably end up with some.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-10, 07:46 PM

Maybe if the FR had cool things like magic robots it wouldn't be the worst D&D setting :smalltongue: I loathe the 'oh we're not actually medieval but you can't get cool stuff' that the Realms have come to represent to me, and it's not like the magic cybereye is any less out of place.

There's also the fact that dungeonpunk is just more popular now than it was two decades ago. I wouldn't be surprised if the FR start magiteching up if the trend continues, although that's certainly not a guarantee.

Also if we're limited to biological races BG3 is horrifically short on catgirls...

Zevox

2023-10-10, 07:46 PM

I'm suggesting it because I genuinely believe it can fit, not to be inflammatory. We don't have to agree.
Then you should understand when I argue against your suggestion by turning to the existing lore and showing how it contradicts that claim. Such as that there is no suggestion in the existing lore that there was anything unusual about Raumathar's golems besides being numerous enough to be used as a small army, or that the only magic they're noted as using that's beyond present-day capabilities in Faerûn is the lost Imaskari magic they used to control White Dragons in their final war with Narfell's demonic forces. Additionally, all of that happened over fifteen hundred years ago, and there is an entire society, the Witches of Rashemen, dedicated to preserving Raumathar's lore and history, which make deciding that we just now learn they had also created intelligent constructs somehow as an excuse to introduce a race of them an extreme stretch by any reasonable standard.

So no, it doesn't fit.

Maybe if the FR had cool things like magic robots it wouldn't be the worst D&D setting :smalltongue:
It can't be the worst D&D setting as long as Eberron exists. :smalltongue:

Also if we're limited to biological races BG3 is horrifically short on catgirls...
I'd be quite happy to see Tabaxi added. Though since there's none in the game currently, they'd probably take a back seat to things that would be easier to add due to the assets already existing, like the Goblinoids.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-10, 08:13 PM

It can't be the worst D&D setting as long as Eberron exists. :smalltongue:

Ah, I see, you e got your list upside down. Let me flip that for you.

I'd be quite happy to see Tabaxi added. Though since there's none in the game currently, they'd probably take a back seat to things that would be easier to add due to the assets already existing, like the Goblinoids.

Eh, I suspect if we get race DLC it'll be just as likely to be something not modded in already, if I want to play a goblin or ogre somebody's already set that up. My actual bets for what's first would be Githzerai, Changelings, or full blooded orcs.

But as to retconning the best race into the Realms, well this very much isn't the biggest change they've shoehorned in. Hell they strictly speaking wouldn't have to be retconned in anyway, just adjust their Eberron origin to fit the next time the setting skips forward a century, or when an adventure goes to a part of the planet that's been out of focus.

(To be honest at this point I'm just defending my boys, the tadpole reason is a very strong argument for why it would never happen.)

Psyren

2023-10-10, 08:13 PM

Then you should understand when I argue against your suggestion by turning to the existing lore and showing how it contradicts that claim.

I do understand your point of view. My opinion remains unchanged.

Maybe if the FR had cool things like magic robots it wouldn't be the worst D&D setting :smalltongue: I loathe the 'oh we're not actually medieval but you can't get cool stuff' that the Realms have come to represent to me, and it's not like the magic cybereye is any less out of place.

There's also the fact that dungeonpunk is just more popular now than it was two decades ago. I wouldn't be surprised if the FR start magiteching up if the trend continues, although that's certainly not a guarantee.

I think the biggest problem with FR is that 90% of the stories and modules, especially those from the tie-in games, are focused around one tiny corner of it (the Sword Coast), the majority of which is as generic fantasy as generic fantasy gets. There is so much more to the setting; one thing I will give BG3 credit for is that they weren't afraid to inject the cosmic side of things even if Spelljammer and Githyanki might be controversial.

Also if we're limited to biological races BG3 is horrifically short on catgirls...

Maybe by the time BG4 rolls around we'll have Ardlings in print :smallcool:

Cikomyr2

2023-10-10, 08:23 PM

I mean, another obvious dlc is the Artificer class, with a choice of being a student of Gond of the Ironhand Gnomes.

Zevox

2023-10-10, 08:29 PM

Eh, I suspect if we get race DLC it'll be just as likely to be something not modded in already, if I want to play a goblin or ogre somebody's already set that up. My actual bets for what's first would be Githzerai, Changelings, or full blooded orcs.
If they ignore the obvious picks because mods exist, that would be a mistake, I would say. Not only do players like myself who are on console exist, but surely not all people who play the game on PC use such mods, either, and would prefer official versions of it. And those would be by far the easiest ones to do. It would just be throwing away easy money to ignore it, unless they don't do DLC races at all.

(To be honest at this point I'm just defending my boys, the tadpole reason is a very strong argument for why it would never happen.)
There's no need to defend them. I'm not attacking them, I'm arguing they shouldn't be shoehorned into the Forgotten Realms. I just don't wish to see something I like ruined (a second time...) by forcing something I hate into it. Any more than you would wish for Eberron to undergo an event that eliminated the Warforged and all magitech, leaving the setting in a more medieval state, I'd wager, even though such a thing might leave it a setting that would be of more interest to me.

These things are different settings for a reason. Keep them that way.

Maybe by the time BG4 rolls around we'll have Ardlings in print :smallcool:
Even if we do, they'll still be a significantly worse way to do catpeople than the Tabaxi. :smalltongue:

I mean, another obvious dlc is the Artificer class, with a choice of being a student of Gond of the Ironhand Gnomes.
I would bet against that. That would involve both adding a lot of class-specific dialogue and a lot more new mechanics than a race or subclass.

Psyren

2023-10-10, 08:33 PM

I think Githzerai DLC would be very welcome, including story DLC. They have to be aware of what almost happened in the main narrative, and I think the resounding success of making Githyanki more interesting (I never in my lifetime thought I would see widespread thirst-posting on social media about Githyanki) could be extended to them.

I mean, another obvious dlc is the Artificer class, with a choice of being a student of Gond of the Ironhand Gnomes.

While we haven't had much luck on the catgirl front, the Artificer has gotten the mod treatment :smallsmile:

Cikomyr2

2023-10-10, 08:40 PM

I would bet against that. That would involve both adding a lot of class-specific dialogue and a lot more new mechanics than a race or subclass.

I could see it. 20 bucks a pop. Take it or leave it, it's additional content. They paid the voice actors, everyone is happy, go capitalism! :smallbiggrin:

Jophiel

2023-10-10, 09:35 PM

If they were to add DLC, I'd expect to see (and hope to see) some side story missions before more races/classes. Or maybe side stories with a new subclass or two thrown in. Be a chance to throw in some Upper City stuff that got everyone* bent out of shape with its absence and fluff out some of the companion stories for everyone not named Astarion (and, in second place, Shadowheart). I mean, there's gotta be more ties one could make for Wyll and Karlach in the city of their birth and raising.

*Ok, not everyone but a very vocal minority of everyone

NeoVid

2023-10-11, 04:06 AM

New races/subclasses with some short storylines connected to them as DLC for this game? Larian normally doesn't do DLC, but they'll probably have to add new features to BG3 out of popular demand.

On the subject of the magic/technology conflict, which AD&D setting was it where the source of magic was a crashed flying saucer? I think it was Mystara, but anything completely awesome/crazy to add to an adventure defaults to being part of Mystara.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-11, 04:43 AM

I would bet against any story DLC, my take is that Larian'll reach for the low-hanging fruit and give BG3 the D:OS2 treatment with a Definitive Edition including some popular mods and certain (quite small) features.

If they had any plans for a story DLC, I believe they would've said something about it by now; at the moment all we know is that apparently Larian would like to do more with BG3 (they would like to milk the cash cow a little more, go figure) but their vagueness does not inspire me confidence we'll see much.

Errorname

2023-10-11, 05:57 AM

Larian aren't really a company that does DLC, but it seems like such a waste to not build on all the assets they've made.

I bring up the standalone expansion / same-engine sequel approach since it seems most in keeping with their ethos.

Jophiel

2023-10-11, 07:10 AM

I don't follow the history of Larian game development, and don't expect them to release any substantial DLC at all (based on earlier statements that they had nothing planned) but figure that some story DLC would (a) patch up some of the holes in Act III & address end-game complaints and (b) give people are reason to play the game again a year from now or whenever said DLC released.

Just me, but I can't see replaying the game for the 5th, 6th or 7th time just because now I can do it as a hobgoblin or a Divine Soul sorcerer. More to the point, I don't see me spending money on being a hobgoblin or Divine Soul sorcerer. And I don't know if it's worth it for Larian to spend money on that and successfully thread the needle between spending a bunch on fully integrating a new race/class and them not doing enough and getting "This DLC is a trash money-grab, it's like a player skin and three lines about being a hobgoblin."

I have umpteen-jillion race/class combos (plus Dark Urge, plus Origin characters) to use chillin' in Moonrise Tower right now without spending more money. What I am running out of is unseen content (actual playable content, not 'you only get this voice line as a stout halfling beast ranger'). This is no slight at Larian who has built an amazing game that I have hundreds of hours in, just the fact that I wouldn't find "Now with Tabaxi Samurai" to be reason alone to spend the time and money on playing it again. Especially since, by the time Tabaxi Samurai DLC releases, I'll have put in another play-through or two and likely moved on to something else.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-11, 07:54 AM

Errorname

2023-10-11, 08:03 AM

The issue with bundling what i consider "superficial" DLC (races, class) and story content is that you will have people complaining Larian is locking story behind optional content that some people are not interested in.

Im all for splitting any new content between these superficial rehauls, and new stories (either stand alone post-story stories, or integrated with the main game). But including the artificier with the new Super Gond Underdark Dungeon is a bad idea.

Bundling new mechanical content alongside new story content is as old as expansions, so I don't really see the problem? I've never seen someone complain about story being 'locked behind' new character options because they're part of the same DLC release.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-11, 08:16 AM

Bundling new mechanical content alongside new story content is as old as expansions, so I don't really see the problem? I've never seen someone complain about story being 'locked behind' new character options because they're part of the same DLC release.

I don't consider "its been done for a long while" to be an argument with any inherent worth.

Just because the way of bundling things was a thing during the dial up era doesnt mean it should inform the way things are going forward.

Errorname

2023-10-11, 08:21 AM

I don't consider "its been done for a long while" to be an argument with any inherent worth.

Just because the way of bundling things was a thing during the dial up era doesnt mean it should inform the way things are going forward.

Okay, but it does undercut the "people will complain if they do this" because there's a lot of precedent that they don't. Having an expansion that includes new narrative stuff alongside new mechanical stuff is extremely normalized and also generally results in a better more cohesive product.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-11, 08:22 AM

The issue with bundling what i consider "superficial" DLC (races, class) and story content is that you will have people complaining Larian is locking story behind optional content that some people are not interested in.

Im all for splitting any new content between these superficial rehauls, and new stories (either stand alone post-story stories, or integrated with the main game). But including the artificier with the new Super Gond Underdark Dungeon is a bad idea.

I do not see the problem either. I might be wrong, but I have not seen anyone complaining that in the recently released DLC for Cyberpunk 2077 CDPR has bundled "superficial" stuff (weapons and certain perks mostly) behind story content.
Sure, I do not see Larian doing that (because I do not see Larian releasing anything even remotely similar to Phantom Liberty) but if they do and throw some new classes at us as well, I would just be happy.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-11, 08:24 AM

I do not see the problem either. I might be wrong, but I have not seen anyone complaining that in the recently released DLC for Cyberpunk 2077 CDPR has bundled "superficial" stuff (weapons and certain perks mostly) behind story content.
Sure, I do not see Larian doing that (because I do not see Larian releasing anything even remotely similar to Phantom Liberty) but if they do and throw some new classes at us as well, I would just be happy.

I mean, the new Cyberpunk dlc was a complete rework and polish of the game no?

Bunny Commando

2023-10-11, 08:26 AM

I mean, the new Cyberpunk dlc was a complete rework and polish of the game no?

The 2.0 update (rework and polish) is available to anyone who owns the game, it's not gated behind the DLC.

Errorname

2023-10-11, 08:38 AM

Like if Larian had new story DLC that introduced NPCs with new classes and races would letting you use them for your PC be locking story content behind superficial features? Would siloing that off and making you pay extra for it be the “consumer friendly” approach.

Jophiel

2023-10-11, 08:49 AM

I think that throwing in a new race/(sub)class with story content would be seen as value-added rather than gatekeeping. "10 hours of content, plus you get the kobold race..."

Unless they went in the other direction (nine new races and an hour of content), I expect new stuff to do would be near-universally appreciated and tossing in a race/class would just help soften the fact that it's not *20* more hours.

(Hours used for illustrative purposes, don't @ me)

Bunny Commando

2023-10-11, 08:56 AM

warty goblin

2023-10-11, 09:24 AM

I don't think people automatically object to paying for story stuff OR mechanical stuff, so long as it's good. After all, it all takes time and effort to develop, and in something like BG3 it's also pretty much all the game is; like, besides the various classes etc and the story encounters, what is there? It isn't the sort of title likely to do free story DLC set to coincide with the new season's cosmetic loot boxes. Paying for bug fixes pisses people off, and rightly so, but good story content, including new mechanics, is generally fine.

(The only case I can think of where people were unhappy with story content being sold for an RPG is that one time Bioware had an in-game NPC hawking their own questline. Mostly because that's just gauche as hell.)

I think a really cool thing they could do is very focused DLC stories. The main game is big enough, and packed with enough stuff, that I really don't need more jammed in there. But a nice 10 - 15 hour bit where you play a fairly specific person in some particular scenario could be really fun. Particularly if they gave you some unique mechanics for that character, put in some fun choice and consequence, and made the scenario depend heavily on the custom mechanics.

diplomancer

2023-10-11, 09:34 AM

Psyren

2023-10-11, 09:44 AM

If they want to work on something I'd prefer they fleshed out the endings/epilogues more. In particular, you should be able to learn of a companion's future plans without romancing them, that's just punishing the ace/aro players (plus it would be interesting to know what they default to absent any ties to the MC.) I'd also love if they added Act 3 character quests for the characters that currently lack such (Halsin and Minsc.)

I would bet against any story DLC, my take is that Larian'll reach for the low-hanging fruit and give BG3 the D:OS2 treatment with a Definitive Edition including some popular mods and certain (quite small) features.

This seems the most likely to me. There's some core functionality added in via mods that should definitely be codified into a definitive edition like the Dodge Action, Bags of Holding, Transmog, extra subclasses and spells etc.

Actually, one thing I think they could easily do that would cost them almost nothing and convince people, especially console players, to put in another playthrough is to create a Good Minthara Recruitment path. I'd be willing to bet the majority of players haven't seen any of her companion dialogue, and having a paladin party member would be fun. The legwork has been done for them via the existing mod, all they would need are a couple extra lines of dialogue to explain how she survived Act 1 and you can pick her up by springing her from Moonrise like her current A2 recruitment.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-11, 10:48 AM

While this is true, there is A LOT of loot on chapter 3 that makes the characters considerably more powerful, even if they don't go up in levels, though of course there's a limit to how much this tecnique can be used.

Which makes a story DLC with no level progression even more problematic. Leaving all sense of progression to loot is not really feasible when you already have so much powerful stuff in the game already.

This seems the most likely to me. There's some core functionality added in via mods that should definitely be codified into a definitive edition like the Dodge Action, Bags of Holding, Transmog, extra subclasses and spells etc.

Agree. Dodge action especially, I'm here wondering why Larian chose not to implement it.

Actually, one thing I think they could easily do that would cost them almost nothing and convince people, especially console players, to put in another playthrough is to create a Good Minthara Recruitment path. I'd be willing to bet the majority of players haven't seen any of her companion dialogue, and having a paladin party member would be fun. The legwork has been done for them via the existing mod, all they would need are a couple extra lines of dialogue to explain how she survived Act 1 and you can pick her up by springing her from Moonrise like her current A2 recruitment.

Even though I don't see that happening (IMHO Minthara is basically the only real reward you get for going the evil route in Act 1 and she's really not enough for what you lose) I have to admit I would really like to have Minthara in my party without having to murder a bunch of civilians. Having another frontliner other than Lae'zel so I can demote Karlach to camp duty for the rest of the game would be great.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-11, 10:56 AM

On a related note:
Another reason I doubt Larian is going to release a story DLC is the level cap. You can already reach level 12 relatively early in Act 3 and Larian seems loathe to increase the cap (with good reason, if I might add), either a pre- or post-ending DLC would mean play even more hours with no progression, I could see people complaining more about that than having a new class to play with.

The level cap argument is actually why i think story-focused and character-focused would be better suited.

Like, you could engineer a mini campaign for Lae'zel, the high-level Githyanki fighter, much more easily than you can engineer a campaign that have to accommodate a full party with all class combination possible. Sometimes a wizard will just break the setting where a cleric wouldn't.

Also, the fact that they would be narratively appart from the main story allows you to implement soft Bag of Spilling mechanic for most of your loot.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-11, 11:16 AM

The level cap argument is actually why i think story-focused and character-focused would be better suited.

Like, you could engineer a mini campaign for Lae'zel, the high-level Githyanki fighter, much more easily than you can engineer a campaign that have to accommodate a full party with all class combination possible. Sometimes a wizard will just break the setting where a cleric wouldn't.

Also, the fact that they would be narratively appart from the main story allows you to implement soft Bag of Spilling mechanic for most of your loot.

I do not see that working.
First, you would've have to release a short story for every playable character or people would complain (yes, I am quite sure that many people would complain if their favourite character of the bunch does not get special treatment). This is not something that would necessarily stop Larian, but since you mentioned complaints might be an issue I thought it would be worth noting.

Second, I believe they would fail to attract much attention. The overwhelming majority of players has played a custom character (Dark Urge included), so I believe most people would not be interested in playing a short story as another character.

Third, such stories would be rather inconsequential. If they happened before the main game, there's no real way to make that story your own - Astarion can't really be anything more than start-of-the-game Astarion. If they happen after the main game there are no more stakes, the villain has been defeated - plus, certain characters might not be alive anymore.

Lastly, if these short stories happen after the main game Larian would've to decide what ending is canon and TBH, I don't see that happening.

BRC

2023-10-11, 11:27 AM

Cikomyr2

2023-10-11, 11:55 AM

I could see some sort of companion focused Side-Story DLCs. Not sure the math works out as far as work to build vs actual demand, but

The pattern would be a short side story, set sometime during Act 3, featuring the companion and 3 NPCs, where the player controls the companion in question as their primary character. At the end you get some sort of loot or bonus feat for the character in question, so there IS a mechanical benefit for doing the DLC, but it doesn't break the level cap the way "Hey, here's some more GAME" DLC's tend to.

I could even see them being done in bundles to save asset creation time.

Laezel, Gale get the "Astral Sea" package Laezel gets recruited by some other Githyanki and a Gyff to go retrieve something (maybe I just want a Gyff party member). Gale gets recruited to go rescue an old mentor who went missing in the Astral Sea. They can use the same overworld map for both their quests (Although with different enemy/NPC placements).

Meanwhile, Wyll and Karlach, get the same treatment down in Hell.

Shadowheart and Astarion maybe get to do some skullduggery in the Upper City.

Edit: The low hanging fruit would be an Arena DLC of some sort.

I had the same idea except id swap Astarion and Shadowheart.

Lae'zel and Shadowheart get to be involved in conflicts throughout the Tears of Selune through the astral plane.

Karlach and Wyll both get to face off against Mizora and one of the game's most absent antagonist, Zariel, in Hell.

Astarion and Gale have comedy adventure with vampires and wizards the big city. Name that one "Suckers of Waterdeep".

And the Dark Urge has a solo story content. But instead of being a sequel, its a ***prequel*** that ends with.. well, the events that start the game.

BRC

2023-10-11, 12:00 PM

I had the same idea except id swap Astarion and Shadowheart.

Lae'zel and Shadowheart get to be involved in conflicts throughout the Tears of Selune through the astral plane.

Karlach and Wyll both get to face off against Mizora and one of the game's most absent antagonist, Zariel, in Hell.

Astarion and Gale have comedy adventure with vampires and wizards the big city. Name that one "Suckers of Waterdeep".

And the Dark Urge has a solo story content. But instead of being a sequel, its a ***prequel*** that ends with.. well, the events that start the game.

I could see that working.

My thought was that by picking a single "Leader" character, you avoid having to record extra dialogue for whoever is not being controlled to react to things, but I guess that's just how they approached the game anyway, so having "Gale is Talking, Astarian Reacts" vs "Astarion is talking, Gale reacts" isn't that big a deal.

Biggest issue is

accounting for the wildly different potential paths Lae'zel and Shadowheart can take.

I guess all you need is for Shadowheart to unlock some relevant Sharran memories, whether she's Sharran or Selunite at the time, she can get pulled into "Hey, help us stop this evil thing", and let her current allegiance effect lesser details.

Call the three "Spelljammed", "Hellbound" and "Suckers of Waterdeep"

Keltest

2023-10-11, 12:07 PM

If a DLC about the companions was released, I would prefer it to be a prequel for all of them. See how exactly they managed to get caught on that nautiloid.

Psyren

2023-10-11, 03:32 PM

If a DLC about the companions was released, I would prefer it to be a prequel for all of them. See how exactly they managed to get caught on that nautiloid.

This would be my preference also. Especially since (a) you'd get to play around with all their high-level, pre-tadpole skillsets, (b) it's a lot less work for Larian because you don't need to worry about having different narratives for every permutation of Shadowheart or Lae'zel, and (c) we'd see how they got off in different places (e.g. Wyll arriving at the Grove first, Gale getting stuck in hammerspace, Karlach being so far from the others etc).

Zevox

2023-10-11, 04:07 PM

I'm kind of good with whatever as far as additional story stuff goes, personally. I just assume it's the least likely thing to see since it's by far the most work on their part, and there's no obvious option for what to do with it.

Just me, but I can't see replaying the game for the 5th, 6th or 7th time just because now I can do it as a hobgoblin or a Divine Soul sorcerer.
I mean, I wouldn't do that either, but that's because I never replay a game just to do some different option. I replay a game because it's good and I want to play it again. If I have different options I want to use when I do, that's just a bonus. And while there's a decent number of those in the game now, due to them including everything from the PHB and then a few, it's far from unlimited, and there are some subclasses and races that I'd really like to have more than the ones that we do have that aren't included. Beast Barbarian, for instance, is the only version of that class that has ever made me want to play it, so it's the only way I'm likely to play a Barbarian.

More to the point, I don't see me spending money on being a hobgoblin or Divine Soul sorcerer.
I would. Not for every possible race or subclass they could add, granted, but for certain ones, like Goblins, Aasimar, Genasi, Beast Barbarian, Psychic Warrior, or Bladesinger, just to name a few off the top of my head.

On a related note:
Another reason I doubt Larian is going to release a story DLC is the level cap. You can already reach level 12 relatively early in Act 3 and Larian seems loathe to increase the cap (with good reason, if I might add), either a pre- or post-ending DLC would mean play even more hours with no progression, I could see people complaining more about that than having a new class to play with.
Eh, that doesn't bother me. As long as the story and gameplay I'm getting is fun, what does it matter if I'm leveling up or not? I hardly noticed the lack of it after I hit the level cap in my first run anyway.

Psyren

2023-10-11, 04:15 PM

Beast Barbarian + all the monk (unarmed/unarmored) goodies they crammed into this game would be pretty fun!

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-11, 05:04 PM

I believe Larian has said that they might be willing to do something for levels 13 and up, but because character capabilities grow so much they didn't. I suspect that'll be either an Epilogue DLC more directly facing the Dead Three or BG4 with your chosen avatar teaming up with an all new party.

As to classes, subclasses, and races it'll be either one or two with some story content or a set of big themed packs. I wouldn't be shocked if we also get some new or reworked subclasses in a theoretical Definitive Edition, the Fighter is crying out for a third decent option and I'd love to see Larian tackle the Cavalier.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-11, 05:50 PM

Eh, that doesn't bother me. As long as the story and gameplay I'm getting is fun, what does it matter if I'm leveling up or not? I hardly noticed the lack of it after I hit the level cap in my first run anyway.

Doesn't matter to you, but leveling up gives most players a clear sense of progression and a good sense of progression is quite important for most games to be successful. And I would bet that to Larian a successful game is quite important.

I believe Larian has said that they might be willing to do something for levels 13 and up, but because character capabilities grow so much they didn't. I suspect that'll be either an Epilogue DLC more directly facing the Dead Three or BG4 with your chosen avatar teaming up with an all new party.

IIRC, Larian stopped at level 12 because they believed they could not properly implement higher-level abilities (it was in a Panel from Hell). And they have at the moment no plans for a DLC, just talks about post-launch content.
So I find rather doubtful they would release a DLC where characters might face gods, would feel really out of scope for the kind of game BG3 is.

Psyren

2023-10-11, 06:48 PM

Doesn't matter to you, but leveling up gives most players a clear sense of progression and a good sense of progression is quite important for most games to be successful. And I would bet that to Larian a successful game is quite important.

This logic seems a bit specious. Do games stop being successful once you hit level cap? Progression doesn't have to be vertical.

I agree with you that we're probably not going to be fighting gods/archdevils/etc anytime soon, though.

As to classes, subclasses, and races it'll be either one or two with some story content or a set of big themed packs. I wouldn't be shocked if we also get some new or reworked subclasses in a theoretical Definitive Edition, the Fighter is crying out for a third decent option and I'd love to see Larian tackle the Cavalier.

I wouldn't mind Champion if we got the OneD&D version from the most recent playtest.

Jophiel

2023-10-11, 07:39 PM

I mean, I wouldn't do that either, but that's because I never replay a game just to do some different option. I replay a game because it's good and I want to play it again. If I have different options I want to use when I do, that's just a bonus.
Sure, I don't think we actually disagree. But I don't expect any new races/classes to be coming along soon and so, by the time if/when they did, I'll probably be done playing BG3 for the time being. Maybe I'll come back to it at some point like I have some other games (I can always start a new game of Dragon Age Origins or Stalker:SoC or some other titles) but it'll be after a lengthy palette cleanser and not just because they added a new class or race. Which also means I have no immediate need to buy any new races/classes until I'm ready to play again on my own terms or maybe see it on a deep sale discount. After all, if it'll take me a year before I start Game #8, I can wait a year before buying the new race/class.

On the other hand, if there was actual new content for me to explore, stories to experience, etc then that's much more compelling than "Do the same thing you've done seven times now, but with a few new Genasi dialogue options". Not saying that I expect it to happen, just how I'd react to it.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-11, 07:40 PM

Do games stop being successful once you hit level cap?

Depends. BG3 reaches its level cap relatively early in Act 3, which means that for most of the game you still have a clear sense of progression (your character becomes stronger and gets increasingly powerful abilities) and I believe Larian did a good job, still a decent chunk of the game to enjoy your high-level powers; a BG3 where your character peaks in terms of power in Act 1 or early-to-mid Act 2 would've been a very different game and I doubt it would've sold as much as it had.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-11, 08:23 PM

Don't you love it when you start a fight only to realise your artillery forgot to follow you from the other side of the map? I don't want to know why Gale was even doing in Isobel's room.

Anyway, finally got back to having Halsin recruited, so once I've decided he's allowed to wear clothes again it's off to finish this Act 2 quest before continuing with the main storyline. The current party is Dark Urge, Hot stuff, Bear Dad, and Prayer Girl, with Prayer Girl probably being dropped for Hero Lad once her Act 2 quest is done (at least for a bit).

I've rescued the gnomes and Tiefling siblings, but can't find a way to get to Mizora's target or the Duke, I'm presuming that's unlocked once I've finished the Temple of Shar?

Psyren

2023-10-11, 08:43 PM

Depends. BG3 reaches its level cap relatively early in Act 3, which means that for most of the game you still have a clear sense of progression (your character becomes stronger and gets increasingly powerful abilities) and I believe Larian did a good job, still a decent chunk of the game to enjoy your high-level powers; a BG3 where your character peaks in terms of power in Act 1 or early-to-mid Act 2 would've been a very different game and I doubt it would've sold as much as it had.

I don't recall anyone saying we should reach level cap in Act 1 or early-to-mid Act 2.

Anyway, finally got back to having Halsin recruited, so once I've decided he's allowed to wear clothes again it's off to finish this Act 2 quest before continuing with the main storyline.

LOL :smallbiggrin:

(Just hide his armor - and give him a harness!)

I've rescued the gnomes and Tiefling siblings, but can't find a way to get to Mizora's target or the Duke, I'm presuming that's unlocked once I've finished the Temple of Shar?

Both are in the very final area, so no need to worry. Finish up the temple etc.

Jophiel

2023-10-11, 08:44 PM

I've rescued the gnomes and Tiefling siblings, but can't find a way to get to Mizora's target or the Duke, I'm presuming that's unlocked once I've finished the Temple of Shar?
Yes, neither is accessible right now.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-11, 09:06 PM

LOL :smallbiggrin:

(Just hide his armor - and give him a harness!)

Oh he's in his casual outfit right now. Or casual lack of outfit really, maybe I should buy him some trousers...

Still surprised he was wearing underwear, I half expected him to claim that Sylvanis had forbidden if

Both are in the very final area, so no need to worry. Finish up the temple etc.

That's good to know!

Cikomyr2

2023-10-11, 10:40 PM

Don't you love it when you start a fight only to realise your artillery forgot to follow you from the other side of the map? I don't want to know why Gale was even doing in Isobel's room.

It happens to me very often. Sometimes on purpose. As long as your artillery is not engaged in combat they can move freely around the map while the combat is stuck in place.

I use this very often, its great for ambushes.

Eldan

2023-10-12, 05:38 AM

Happens to me every time I need to climb or jump over an obstacle. Someone in the party always decides to stay behind.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-12, 06:30 AM

Yhea, but its not like it completely f*** you over either. The one thing about being caught as a split party is that usually in a real time environment your distant gang would not be able to join back in time.

Bg3 doesnt have that problem. Always check who is not in initiative.

Eldan

2023-10-12, 06:44 AM

Nah, I quite often zoom in pretty far or look ahead to where I'm walking, so I've had several situations where I only realized that two party members are standing on a cliff 500 meters back when combat started. So they spend the first two rounds catching up.

Errorname

2023-10-12, 07:55 AM

Ugh, this game is just generous enough with the saves that I let my guard down, and then whoops I need to redo like 15 minutes worth of gameplay.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-12, 09:20 AM

It happens to me very often. Sometimes on purpose. As long as your artillery is not engaged in combat they can move freely around the map while the combat is stuck in place.

I use this very often, its great for ambushes.

It almost always leaves the character rounds from the combat once they finally roll initiative. Plus in this specific fight I kind of wanted my casters centrally placed so they could hit waves coming from either side.

It, as well as IIRC stealthed characters not rolling initiative until they break it, is very useful when it's intentional, and annoying when it's just the game didn't decide to have a character follow. I will occasionally break group mode to start combat with a better position (or switch out of a conversation to set my party up for a conflict).

LibraryOgre

2023-10-12, 09:34 AM

I would bet against that. That would involve both adding a lot of class-specific dialogue and a lot more new mechanics than a race or subclass.

In a way, that's a problem that a lot of newer games have... the specificity of choices, combined with everything being voice-acted, means that adding something like that is a far bigger endeavor than it was in games with more limited voice acting.

If I wanted to add Warforged and Artificers to the Infinity Engine games, I'd have to change the text of a few conversations, maybe... moreso with Warforged than with Artificers, since you might occasionally want people to comment on you being a robot. But that's just text, maybe with a few triggers in conversation trees (IF [charname] is warforged, THEN use conversation 1b). If I want to add a full NPC, I need a VA to do a few lines; an intro, some chatter if they're companions, that's about it.

Not arguing against the new version, by any means, just that it's a hurdle that makes some aspects of modding, either official or unofficial, more difficult.

Bunny Commando

2023-10-12, 09:49 AM

I don't recall anyone saying we should reach level cap in Act 1 or early-to-mid Act 2.

Then I do not understand what you're trying to say. I say that a game like BG3 needs a clear sense of progression (so, leveling up) for most of the game to be as engaging as it is for many players and that a lack of it would've led to lower sales.
I do not see Larian ever increasing the level cap given their own statements and I do not see Larian releasing a story-driven DLC where characters do not progress vertically (again, leveling up) since I believe that a D&D game needs that kind of progression in order to be successful; it's certainly not the only thing it needs to be successful, but I would say it is quite important.

Cikomyr2

2023-10-12, 10:35 AM

It almost always leaves the character rounds from the combat once they finally roll initiative..

Unless the people outside of combat approach the combat stealthily and takes care not to cross fields of visions?

I genuinely NEVER had any issue about PCs being far from battle, because the game was designed for relax leisure gaming where you can always have the people far away catch up as slowly and meticulously as needed.

Not sure what the issue here is.

Psyren

2023-10-12, 11:01 AM

Then I do not understand what you're trying to say. I say that a game like BG3 needs a clear sense of progression (so, leveling up) for most of the game to be as engaging as it is for many players and that a lack of it would've led to lower sales.
I do not see Larian ever increasing the level cap given their own statements and I do not see Larian releasing a story-driven DLC where characters do not progress vertically (again, leveling up) since I believe that a D&D game needs that kind of progression in order to be successful; it's certainly not the only thing it needs to be successful, but I would say it is quite important.

I'm saying that you're conflating "sense of progression" with "more levels." You can in fact have the former without the latter.

Ugh, this game is just generous enough with the saves that I let my guard down, and then whoops I need to redo like 15 minutes worth of gameplay.

I've honestly been in the habit of saving before every conversation, every combat, and every few steps since my Black Isle days - never mind Bioware, Owlcat, and Larian.

In a way, that's a problem that a lot of newer games have... the specificity of choices, combined with everything being voice-acted, means that adding something like that is a far bigger endeavor than it was in games with more limited voice acting.

If I wanted to add Warforged and Artificers to the Infinity Engine games, I'd have to change the text of a few conversations, maybe... moreso with Warforged than with Artificers, since you might occasionally want people to comment on you being a robot. But that's just text, maybe with a few triggers in conversation trees (IF [charname] is warforged, THEN use conversation 1b). If I want to add a full NPC, I need a VA to do a few lines; an intro, some chatter if they're companions, that's about it.

Not arguing against the new version, by any means, just that it's a hurdle that makes some aspects of modding, either official or unofficial, more difficult.

Not that I'm advocating for official Artificers or anything, but I don't think Artificers are so different from Wizards in modern D&D that they couldn't just take their conversation tags. 5e Artificers don't have to be tinkers/engineers/machinists, flavor-wise they can just be "wizards who source their magic from objects."

BRC

2023-10-12, 11:11 AM

The main reason I don't see Artificers working especially well in this game, at least not without a substantial rework from their 5e presentation, is that one of their core mechanics is "can make 2-3 magic items" and the game already gives you a ton of magic items far more powerful than what a low to mid level artificer can build anyway, and a lot of the fiddly utility magic items don't really translate well to the game.

LibraryOgre

2023-10-12, 11:22 AM

I'm saying that you're conflating "sense of progression" with "more levels." You can in fact have the former without the latter.

I'm playing BG1EE, and I have to say... you hit the XP limit pretty early in that game. I've got two chapters left and I'm flirting with it.

Psyren

2023-10-12, 11:24 AM

BRC

2023-10-12, 11:38 AM

This game does give you a ton of items - but everybody has a ton more slots as well. I think it would come down to what infusions and replications are available.

It's not that you wouldn't have room, so much as that, going by the standards in Tashas, your Class Feature items would pretty quickly get lost in the mix. Artificer infusions already kind of suck from the "Core class feature that feels cool and powerful to use" standpoint, giving you yet more access to something that's already very common wouldn't really feel like a worthwhile impact.

Like, it could certainly be done well. Larian redesigned several classes for the better. But "Can build magic items" would be hard to build in a way that feels cool I think.

What might actually work as a simple take is if Artificers got extra generic Magic Item Slots to equip utility items (Boots, Rings, Hats, Gloves, Capes, Amulets) into so you can be even better at being a magic item christmas tree.

Psyren

2023-10-12, 12:11 PM

I don't think extra slots are needed. Yes, items are common, but thanks to Sturgeon's Law - the majority are jank.

Here's some simple things I think a BG3 artificer could do to stand out:

1) The ability to add properties (even generic ones) to existing items. For example, if you've ever debated between wearing your Deathstalker Mantle or a Cloak of Protection, now you wouldn't have to - an Artificer Durge could add the benefits of the latter to the former. Essentially, you'd be able to infuse any item, not just nonmagical ones.

2) The ability to recharge "per rest" items. Want to use that Haste Ring again without burning a precious short rest? The BG3 Artificer could do that, either x/day or with a spell slot.

3) Extra proficiencies - since tool proficiencies are no longer a thing, let the Artificer get the skillmonkey stuff like Sleight of Hand and Deception, plus the ability to gain Expertise in those. Now we have a skillmonkey on par with the Rogue, but who can do healing and crowd control stuff in exchange for slightly lower single-target damage and mobility potential.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-12, 02:07 PM

One DLC I'd love to see, and could conceivably be coming is more character creation options. Particularly faces, but also hairstyles and scars. I'd also like new body types, particularly men who aren't incredibly buff, but I can see the need to redo every clothing item as prohibitive.

Errorname

2023-10-12, 07:02 PM

Psyren

2023-10-12, 07:44 PM

I've made my peace with the fact that there's probably not going to be any big DLC for this game. This being said I'm still really hoping for the standalone expansion / same engine sequel approach. Like all the systems and a ton of assets are already made, you could absolutely do a New Vegas sort of thing with a relatively quick turnaround. I want this game to be the dawn of a second infinity engine era, honestly

This! Or at the very least they could work on giving us campaign/DM tools, so we can get to work converting all kinds of other D&D video games to this engine and edition. I was just watching Let's Plays/Retrospectives of the old school gold box run from SSI that spanned settings like Dark Sun and Ravenloft :smallsmile:

Zevox

2023-10-12, 08:15 PM

I've made my peace with the fact that there's probably not going to be any big DLC for this game. This being said I'm still really hoping for the standalone expansion / same engine sequel approach. Like all the systems and a ton of assets are already made, you could absolutely do a New Vegas sort of thing with a relatively quick turnaround. I want this game to be the dawn of a second infinity engine era, honestly
A same-engine sequel seems like a given to me. A game as successful as BG3 doesn't just not get a sequel, they're surely already at least planning what they want to do for that. And unless I'm quite misinformed, most developers don't want to just change engines willy-nilly. Unless they've got a good reason to think they're better off switching to another, odds are they stick with the same one.

warty goblin

2023-10-12, 08:37 PM

Unless they do something very different (which is possible given these are the unhinged maniacs who gave us Dragon Commander) whatever they do next is going to be in some recognizable evolution of their current engine. It's what they used for both Original Sin games, and is pretty much head and shoulders above any other RPG toolset in terms of delivering a physically interactive world.

Keltest

2023-10-12, 09:04 PM

If nothing else, we could easily see the next Neverwinter Nights game, or something else set in any D&D setting, as another game, or a downloadable campaign to be played in the BG3 client.

Errorname

2023-10-12, 09:04 PM

This! Or at the very least they could work on giving us campaign/DM tools, so we can get to work converting all kinds of other D&D video games to this engine and edition. I was just watching Let's Plays/Retrospectives of the old school gold box run from SSI that spanned settings like Dark Sun and Ravenloft :smallsmile:

It's going to be prohibitively difficult for modders to make content that matches the polish of this game's presentation, so I'd definitely prefer if they invested in professional funded teams.

A same-engine sequel seems like a given to me. A game as successful as BG3 doesn't just not get a sequel, they're surely already at least planning what they want to do for that. And unless I'm quite misinformed, most developers don't want to just change engines willy-nilly. Unless they've got a good reason to think they're better off switching to another, odds are they stick with the same one.

"Same Engine Sequel" is a bit misleading as a colloquial term, and standalone expansion is probably the better one. Like both Fallout New Vegas and Fallout 4 are being made in versions of the same engine, but only New Vegas is a "same engine sequel" because it doesn't have a massive overhaul of the graphics and gameplay and just builds a new game around the same core assets and mechanics.

If nothing else, we could easily see the next Neverwinter Nights game, or something else set in any D&D setting, as another game, or a downloadable campaign to be played in the BG3 client.

I was thinking Icewind Dale would be real easy to do. You could get away with not writing any bespoke companions and probably get it finished a lot quicker.

Zevox

2023-10-12, 09:38 PM

"Same Engine Sequel" is a bit misleading as a colloquial term, and standalone expansion is probably the better one. Like both Fallout New Vegas and Fallout 4 are being made in versions of the same engine, but only New Vegas is a "same engine sequel" because it doesn't have a massive overhaul of the graphics and gameplay and just builds a new game around the same core assets and mechanics.
Haven't played either of those games, but eh, depends on what they want to do with the sequel I suppose. Core gameplay mechanics don't need any big redesign, since it'll surely still be 5e D&D. Visually, on them if they want to change things up a bit, though I don't see much need for it at this moment.

I was thinking Icewind Dale would be real easy to do. You could get away with not writing any bespoke companions and probably get it finished a lot quicker.
While I've enjoyed Icewind Dale 2 over the years, I would far rather they make a better game than one they can churn out quicker. And not having unique companions would definitely make it a much worse game, not a better one.

Psyren

2023-10-12, 09:45 PM

I'm optimistic because things like graphical fidelity are finally starting to plateau. Devs won't be pushed to chase graphical increases as much as they have been in generations past, which is one of the big sources of throwing out engines and starting over.

Baldurs Gate 2 released in the year 2000 on the Infinity Engine. 2 years later, two D&D games came out - Icewind Dale 2 (also Infinity Engine) and Neverwinter Nights, on the Aurora Engine. NWN absolutely trounced IW2 in sales. That's not to say that IW2 did badly, but a publisher being interested in signing off on a a sequel project won't have to weigh such considerations if the engine is largely the same.

In chasing new engines, sometimes devs run into problems too, such as the bugginess of the Electron Engine or the massive workflow problems with Frostbite.

It's going to be prohibitively difficult for modders to make content that matches the polish of this game's presentation, so I'd definitely prefer if they invested in professional funded teams.

Well sure, but I don't need Larian near-perfection on everything. What I'd like is to experience some of the older D&D titles I missed from my childhood, without having to wrestle with obsolete editions or Dosbox.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-12, 09:52 PM

**** the lifts in the Temple, it's a pain to get all four characters on them and they killed Shadowheart twice. Also redoing the end of the temple tomorrow because I am not running the risk of not seeing Abigail Thorn's NPC (no shutup you have a celeb crysh!).

Also the sex scenes are very much not designed with Small races in mind.

Errorname

2023-10-12, 10:06 PM

Haven't played either of those games, but eh, depends on what they want to do with the sequel I suppose. Core gameplay mechanics don't need any big redesign, since it'll surely still be 5e D&D. Visually, on them if they want to change things up a bit, though I don't see much need for it at this moment.

"Standalone expansion" is probably the better term

While I've enjoyed Icewind Dale 2 over the years, I would far rather they make a better game than one they can churn out quicker. And not having unique companions would definitely make it a much worse game, not a better one.

I think it'd be acceptable for a spin-off title, although I think everyone would prefer fleshed out bespoke companions.

Zevox

2023-10-12, 11:09 PM

I think it'd be acceptable for a spin-off title, although I think everyone would prefer fleshed out bespoke companions.
I can't agree personally, I think you lose way too much without good companion characters. It would be far too much of a step down to put out a game without any. They provide a lot of the game's best stories and moments, and are generally more memorable than any other element of it.

Plus, I've seen the end result of doing it in at least one other series I can think of: Dragon Quest. Dragon Quest 9 had a full party of create-a-characters, and it just lost so much of the personality and charm of other games in the series for lack of any defined protagonists, it made it so much more forgettable than 8 or 11, or even some of the older games in the series. It's just not a good idea.

Errorname

2023-10-12, 11:23 PM

I can't agree personally, I think you lose way too much without good companion characters. It would be far too much of a step down to put out a game without any. They provide a lot of the game's best stories and moments, and are generally more memorable than any other element of it.

It'd require a different ethos and it would feel very different. "Modern CRPG with a fully custom party" would be an interesting design challenge if nothing else, since the established model puts so much weight on the companion characters.

Jophiel

2023-10-13, 12:04 AM

Also the sex scenes are very much not designed with Small races in mind.
I played a dwarf in Dragon Age: Inquisition and it set such a low bar for me in mixed-height romance scenes that BG3 looks positively graceful in comparison.

warty goblin

2023-10-13, 06:35 AM

It'd require a different ethos and it would feel very different. "Modern CRPG with a fully custom party" would be an interesting design challenge if nothing else, since the established model puts so much weight on the companion characters.

That's basically just Solasta. Which is a fine combat simulator with a sort of story linking the stabby bits. Honestly they tried as hard as I think you realistically can to make interesting conversations with all custom characters, since everybody gets their own sets of tags and likes/dislikes, but it's pretty flat in practice.

Errorname

2023-10-13, 07:21 AM

That's basically just Solasta. Which is a fine combat simulator with a sort of story linking the stabby bits. Honestly they tried as hard as I think you realistically can to make interesting conversations with all custom characters, since everybody gets their own sets of tags and likes/dislikes, but it's pretty flat in practice.

Yeah, I think if you actually wanted to do an Icewind Dale 3 giving you the option to you customize the party if you want to, but also having robust and well developed premade characters is the obvious best option, especially considering current expectations. That's basically what Pillars of Eternity did and considering where Sawyer and co cut their teeth that's basically an Icewind Dale successor already, especially the expansion.

Psyren

2023-10-13, 10:20 AM

I can't agree personally, I think you lose way too much without good companion characters. It would be far too much of a step down to put out a game without any.

All the more reason why Larian themselves shouldn't do it. Instead, if they provide campaign tools, the community will likely set out to make conversions, retroclones, and spinoffs without harming Larian's own brand.

I played around with NWN's campaign tools WAY back in the day, and speaking just for myself, I would be 10x more likely to learn a less buggy engine like Divinity/a more streamlined system like 5e, especially with much stronger modding communities nowadays via Nexus and Discord.

I played a dwarf in Dragon Age: Inquisition and it set such a low bar for me in mixed-height romance scenes that BG3 looks positively graceful in comparison.

I thought Iron Bull and Blackwall were handled well, and Josephine is pretty tame anyways. Not sure about Cullen, Cassandra, and Sera. (And obviously Solas is... well, racist.)

That's basically just Solasta. Which is a fine combat simulator with a sort of story linking the stabby bits. Honestly they tried as hard as I think you realistically can to make interesting conversations with all custom characters, since everybody gets their own sets of tags and likes/dislikes, but it's pretty flat in practice.

I'd say Solasta was understandably very cautious because the OGL was shaky ground to build a CRPG on. Now that the 5e SRD is in Creative Commons I would expect their next attempt to be a bigger swing - particularly given that (a) they've done the hard part of digitizing the rules and (b) BG3 has proven there's a huge addressable market for this sort of thing.

Jophiel

2023-10-13, 10:38 AM

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-13, 10:41 AM

I played a dwarf in Dragon Age: Inquisition and it set such a low bar for me in mixed-height romance scenes that BG3 looks positively graceful in comparison.

It's all fine until the part where I think it was meant to be implying penetration. If it was meant to still be foreplay then it works, if not I'm very obviously nowhere near Karlach's ladybits. Like there were a couple of minor issues before that but not ones I'm convinced a half-orc wouldn't have.

OTOH them getting down on their knees to kiss you is done so much better than in Dragon Age, but I still want a stepladder.

Also Karlach is such an utter dork when it comes to romance stuff. It makes sense, she's been stuck somewhere where she hasn't had a partner or even a friend for ten years, and there's so far no word on if she had any partners before all that, but it's still ADORABLE.

Jophiel

2023-10-13, 10:52 AM

It's all fine until the part where I think it was meant to be implying penetration. If it was meant to still be foreplay then it works, if not I'm very obviously nowhere near Karlach's ladybits. Like there were a couple of minor issues before that but not ones I'm convinced a half-orc wouldn't have.

My character with Karlach is female so I'll trust you (and can believe) that it's less convincing when poking is involved. I don't remember her and Astarion being poorly done but, for all my responses, I'm not terribly invested in the nudie bits. Not to imply anyone else is overly invested but it might have been lacking and I just didn't notice.

LibraryOgre

2023-10-13, 10:57 AM

I do think a game like IWD might be interesting for the engine, but IWD 1&2 border on being adventure games... sure, you make your characters, but very few of your choices have an impact on either game... I honestly cannot think of any choices, in either game, which matter. You might get a touch more dialogue with some characters, but otherwise?

warty goblin

2023-10-13, 11:02 AM

I'd say Solasta was understandably very cautious because the OGL was shaky ground to build a CRPG on. Now that the 5e SRD is in Creative Commons I would expect their next attempt to be a bigger swing - particularly given that (a) they've done the hard part of digitizing the rules and (b) BG3 has proven there's a huge addressable market for this sort of thing.

Solasta didn't use the SRD/OGL, they had a specific license from WoTC. Nor, when they made the game, was the SRD particularly insecure, several games had used it in the past without controversy.

Really I think Solasta ended up being Solasta because they didn't have near the budget of BG3, they had to build out the rules and engine modifications from more or less scratch, and it was always meant to be a combat focused game with a pretty light story. If anything is going to rock the boat for a potential Solasta 2, it's going to be Unity turning out to be radically untrustworthy, which creates a substantial incentive to move to an engine whose contract isn't governed by Darth Vader rules.

Jophiel

2023-10-13, 11:08 AM

Really I think Solasta ended up being Solasta because they didn't have near the budget of BG3, they had to build out the rules and engine modifications from more or less scratch, and it was always meant to be a combat focused game with a pretty light story.
Agreed. It was always meant to be a system for creators to make their own maps and campaigns. The included campaign was, in a sense, more "proof of concept" than it was an attempt to match other CRPGs in storytelling.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-13, 11:22 AM

My character with Karlach is female so I'll trust you (and can believe) that it's less convincing when poking is involved. I don't remember her and Astarion being poorly done but, for all my responses, I'm not terribly invested in the nudie bits. Not to imply anyone else is overly invested but it might have been lacking and I just didn't notice.

My character's female as well, she just has the required equipment. Also a thirty second boinking scene in a romance race stretching the entire game isn't really that important, I'm more amused than annoyed.

Psyren

2023-10-13, 11:47 AM

Blackwall and my dwarf woman was hilariously bad. Half the time, she was apparently levitating or standing on a stack of phonebooks and the horizontal scenes were worse. It basically didn't acknowledge the height differences at all and treated her model as human sized. BG3 isn't perfect but it makes an explicit point of noticing that you're 2-3' smaller than your partner (at least with SH, Astarion and Karlach)

Fair enough - I only saw the barn and bedroom scenes myself so there may have been jankier ones I missed :smallbiggrin:

Solasta didn't use the SRD/OGL, they had a specific license from WoTC.

They originally began development using the OGL but then sought a specific license to cover their bases. Now thanks to CC, they don't have to keep doing that (unless their private license terms require it for any future titles using that branding.) If nothing else, it will give them and any future devs a much stronger bargaining position.

If anything is going to rock the boat for a potential Solasta 2, it's going to be Unity turning out to be radically untrustworthy, which creates a substantial incentive to move to an engine whose contract isn't governed by Darth Vader rules.

I mean, I can't argue with that :smalltongue:

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-13, 06:00 PM

Managed to avoid stabbing Karlach in her sleep, then she tied me up so I couldn't stab her in her sleep, praise Yondalla for Wisdom saving throw proficiency. It's actually a pretty dang nice scene, really sweet.

Shame that the quest markets at the end of Act 2 accidentally sent me to the wrong end of the map! On the other hand I respecced Shadowheart into a Light Cleric and she's so much easier to use, she's still got her control spells but also gets to join the fireball squadron.

Errorname

2023-10-14, 06:06 AM

Realizing Raphael might be my favourite character in this game

The only thing better than a good boss theme is a good boss theme with lyrics, and the only thing better than that is a good boss theme with lyrics sung by the boss.

Zevox

2023-10-14, 10:31 AM

Huh. I'm starting to think I may have somehow prevented Lae'zel's act 1 romance scene from triggering? I told her the interest is mutual when the subject was brought up pretty early, but since then it's been non-stop other scenes taking priority when I rest. The Guardian scenes, Dark Urge scenes, Lae'zel vs Shadowheart, Astarion, etc. Finally hit one without another scene triggering, and this time, no scene triggered at all. I do have the option to tell her I'm "ending our fling" when I talk to her, so the romance is flagged, but nothing else has happened.

(Didn't get it at the party because I did Karlach's scene there instead. Been figuring this character, being a Githyanki, would be a lot looser about sleeping with people, but would aim to actually end up in a relationship with Karlach.)

Also, finally had my first fight that was noticeably harder on Tactician than on Balanced.
The guardian of the adamantine forge. Holy crap, that thing gets so much more health on Tactician, and is so much more consistent about actually hitting my characters. I would up actually deciding that trying to lure it to the big hammer in the middle wasn't worth it, because giving it AoOs was killing me, and the Mephits that summons was a problem too. So I just had Karlach (Monk) and Shadowheart (Vengeance Paladin with a hammer) beat it into submission with Twinned Haste cast on them by my Sorcerer. A little luck on saves vs its ground pound and that worked out. Still took a lot of damage doing it, but it got the job done at least.

All the more reason why Larian themselves shouldn't do it. Instead, if they provide campaign tools, the community will likely set out to make conversions, retroclones, and spinoffs without harming Larian's own brand.

I played around with NWN's campaign tools WAY back in the day, and speaking just for myself, I would be 10x more likely to learn a less buggy engine like Divinity/a more streamlined system like 5e, especially with much stronger modding communities nowadays via Nexus and Discord.
Eh, anything of that sort that they do won't affect me, being a console gamer. I just care what the developers themselves do next.

On the other hand I respecced Shadowheart into a Light Cleric and she's so much easier to use, she's still got her control spells but also gets to join the fireball squadron.
Light Clerics are so good, yeah. Though personally I actually didn't use Fireball much with mine. Partially because it's nerfed (it has like half the area that it should), and partially because Spirit Guardians is an arguably even better use of your 3rd-level spell slots (and often 4th, considering how few 4th-level Cleric spells in the game are actually worth casting most of the time). Once you get to 9th level though Destructive Wave is amazing, a shame that spell is normally Paladin-only, and thus locked behind being a ridiculously high level since Paladins take forever to get 5th-level spells. And they might have the best Channel Divinity in the game. A 2/short rest large radiant AoE that scales as you level, doesn't hit allies, and doesn't use a resource you generally need for anything else is just fantastically useful, even if it's not hitting for Fireball-level damage. And at low levels I even found Flaming Sphere useful, since this game makes it work like a summon instead of the awkward way it does in normal 5e.

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-14, 10:54 AM

Keltest

2023-10-14, 11:05 AM

Why on earth does the game insist on having companions take the lead in conversations at the most random times? I get to the circus, finally make my way round to Dribbles the Clown despite the ridiculous lag, and suddenly the game decides that I want Halsin to do the talking.

Now I have to sit through the incredibly long load process and go through the entire circus AGAIN just to see Halsin's reactions.

Usually its because the NPC is initiating the dialogue with whoever is closest. 80% of the time that will be the controlled character, but in areas like the circus where things are more open, you can crash into their spheres of dialogue by accident with one of your wingmen.

LibraryOgre

2023-10-14, 11:21 AM

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-14, 01:09 PM

Usually its because the NPC is initiating the dialogue with whoever is closest. 80% of the time that will be the controlled character, but in areas like the circus where things are more open, you can crash into their spheres of dialogue by accident with one of your wingmen.

It really doesn't seem like it would have been hard to default to the currently selected character, only about one of the party members even has proficiency in social skills.

And sometimes it literally just bugs out, one time I entered the main room of Moonrise Towers and it switched control to Shadowheart.

I absolutely HATE that. I have a lead character for a reason. They have the talky proficiencies, the Charisma, heck they are my character, so I'd rather the game was programmed to approach me, regardless of who triggered it, unless there is a specific reason (qv Lae'zel with gith unless you, yourself, are gith)

Even in those situations I'd rather the game run them, it tends to keep to a more consistent personality.

Psyren

2023-10-15, 04:25 AM

Grabbed two more mods for my list:

- Wyll's Mirror: Reverts Wyll to his pre-horns look. (I always found it a bit silly that his appearance once inflicted, stays unchanged regardless of pact status.)

- Ritual Casting for Wizards: Wizards no longer have to prep their ritual spells to use them. That gives me constant access to handy things like Feather Fall and Longstrider while letting me prep other things instead.

I'm also debating the Muscular Dragonborn mod, but I'll probably leave that for my next non-origin durge playthrough. (Is there a mod to let your Guardian be a Dragonborn? Why isn't that a vanilla option?)

I'm still on the lookout for more good ones!

Errorname

2023-10-15, 07:15 AM

Wyll's Mirror: Reverts Wyll to his pre-horns look.

I get that it's meant to be a permanent transformation and honestly I love the concept of having a companion who gets really messed up by a curse, but it really looks bad. Like aesthetically unappealing in a way that I don't think it's meant to, and I know Larian can make horns and black sclera look good! Feels like they went too far and not far enough at the same time.

It also happens really early so he'll spend basically all the game like that and averting it requires you to sacrifice another companion character.

(Is there a mod to let your Guardian be a Dragonborn? Why isn't that a vanilla option?)

If I had to guess it's lipsync reasons, I think the dragonborn use a different rig.

GloatingSwine

2023-10-15, 07:51 AM

The whole "closest character does dialogue" thing is a weirdly regressive thing for BG3. It's not like basically every other RPG in the modern era doesn't have solutions for it.

And in BG3 where they otherwise try and go for the D&D experience and at the table getting the other players to butt out even if they're not there is the challenge sometimes (especially if it's something relevant to their character).

warty goblin

2023-10-15, 11:24 AM

It's worth remembering that BG3 is also co-op, so every party is treated like the PC because from the game's POV, and of them can be a PC. Hence also I suspect things like no pooled gold supply and per-character trading.

Psyren

2023-10-15, 12:31 PM

I get that it's meant to be a permanent transformation and honestly I love the concept of having a companion who gets really messed up by a curse, but it really looks bad. Like aesthetically unappealing in a way that I don't think it's meant to, and I know Larian can make horns and black sclera look good! Feels like they went too far and not far enough at the same time.

It also happens really early so he'll spend basically all the game like that and averting it requires you to sacrifice another companion character.

Agreed; they could at least let us change the horns via the companion mirror.

Incidentally, there are mods for that (different horns rather than removing them) too :smallsmile:

If I had to guess it's lipsync reasons, I think the dragonborn use a different rig.

Hmmm... now I'm going to see if disguise spells/Mask of the Shapeshifter will let me turn companions into dragonborn and how that might affect their dialogue if so.

It's worth remembering that BG3 is also co-op, so every party is treated like the PC because from the game's POV, and of them can be a PC. Hence also I suspect things like no pooled gold supply and per-character trading.

While gold isn't pooled per se, Larian uses a "Magic Pockets" mechanic where the active actor can get what they need from the other party members automatically. For example, if your trading character has insufficient gold for a transaction, hitting the "balance trade" button will teleport the remainder from another party member to that one and allow you to complete the purchase. Similarly, keys and other plot items can teleport around.

Not sure if it works this way in MP though, i.e. if you can "rob" human-controlled PCs while trading.

Zevox

2023-10-15, 01:20 PM

I've entered Act 2 in my second run now. I'm a little surprised by how long I've gone now without any Dark Urge stuff kicking in. It's pretty much been since the Goblin camp - nothing in the Underdark, nothing at the Githyanki Creche, and at least so far nothing in the extremely early interactions I've had in act 2. The last thing I had I think was
the "Butler" showing up one night and handing me the cloak. The last actual Dark Urge interaction I remember was the option to bite off an arrogant Goblin's toe when he was insisting I kiss his feet.

I'm also really feeling the low number of spells known that Sorcerers get now. With my Cleric I pretty much always had what I wanted from each level, and with Gale as a Wizard, Astarion as a Bard, and even Wyll as a Warlock last time I didn't feel nearly so constrained as I do as a Sorcerer. I'm getting maybe a couple of options per spell level, and only one when I get access to a new level. I know this is a known issue with them, I've seen people talk about it online before, but not having played one myself it's definitely another thing to experience it. Makes me wonder if I should whip up a bonus spell list of my own for the Draconic Sorcerer in the game I just started DMing.

I get that it's meant to be a permanent transformation and honestly I love the concept of having a companion who gets really messed up by a curse, but it really looks bad. Like aesthetically unappealing in a way that I don't think it's meant to, and I know Larian can make horns and black sclera look good! Feels like they went too far and not far enough at the same time.
No, I think that's deliberate, he's supposed to look unappealing. It's a punishment for defying his orders, it's supposed to make him look wrong, make other mortals find him frightening at a glance. That's why he doesn't just look like a Tiefling - would've been easy to just swap his race from Human to Tiefling if that's what they were going for, but it isn't.

It's worth remembering that BG3 is also co-op, so every party is treated like the PC because from the game's POV, and of them can be a PC. Hence also I suspect things like no pooled gold supply and per-character trading.
True, but they still probably should've taken into account that most people would likely be playing the game single-player, and doing things that way would cause problems there. It would help considerably if things like those worked differently depending on whether you were playing with other people or not.

Errorname

2023-10-15, 01:37 PM

Hmmm... now I'm going to see if disguise spells/Mask of the Shapeshifter will let me turn companions into dragonborn and how that might affect their dialogue if so.

Just tested with Shadowheart and yeah, it completely breaks the lipsync. Animations still work so it’s the same rig, but the movements don’t translate. It’s weird

No, I think that's deliberate, he's supposed to look unappealing. It's a punishment for defying his orders, it's supposed to make him look wrong, make other mortals find him frightening at a glance. That's why he doesn't just look like a Tiefling - would've been easy to just swap his race from Human to Tiefling if that's what they were going for, but it isn't.

I’m not entirely convinced by that. Notably you have dialogue that lets you compliment the new look. It is also, as mentioned his look for most of the game in most playthroughs, so I don’t know if unappealing was the right angle design-wise, especially not the sort of unappealing they chose.

Like it feels like something hastily added in well after the normal version was finalized, not something the character’s design was built around.

Psyren

2023-10-15, 02:34 PM

I'm also really feeling the low number of spells known that Sorcerers get now. With my Cleric I pretty much always had what I wanted from each level, and with Gale as a Wizard, Astarion as a Bard, and even Wyll as a Warlock last time I didn't feel nearly so constrained as I do as a Sorcerer. I'm getting maybe a couple of options per spell level, and only one when I get access to a new level. I know this is a known issue with them, I've seen people talk about it online before, but not having played one myself it's definitely another thing to experience it. Makes me wonder if I should whip up a bonus spell list of my own for the Draconic Sorcerer in the game I just started DMing.

I'd agree that you should.

It's especially maddening because in the OneD&D playtest, they alleviate this issue (every sorcerer gets 7 extra spells known over their career) but they also plan to put the two sorc subclasses from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything (Aberrant and Clockwork) into the new core books, and those two get 10 more bonus spells on top of that, while Draconic and Wild Magic don't. Presumably that will get normalized before they go to print but this process has left me skeptical.

No, I think that's deliberate, he's supposed to look unappealing. It's a punishment for defying his orders, it's supposed to make him look wrong, make other mortals find him frightening at a glance. That's why he doesn't just look like a Tiefling - would've been easy to just swap his race from Human to Tiefling if that's what they were going for, but it isn't.

I mean sure, but we still have to look at it for 100 hours :smalltongue:

It's like, hey Larian - don't fart in the elevator we're stuck in together and then tell me it was completely intentional. You still farted in the elevator!

Cikomyr2

2023-10-15, 02:39 PM

Anonymouswizard

2023-10-15, 03:23 PM

Honestly I like Wyll's horns, and even his eye doesn't bother me that much. What made him start to look wrong to me was noticing the subtle flesh ridges, which he has in places the Tiefling models don't

Also started to experience the fabled Act 3 performance drops, it remains at a choppy but playable twenty-something most of the time but will occasionally drop to seconds per frame or just completely freeze occasionally. So as it gets too much I'm alternating it with a BG1 playthrough, which has given me two complaints:

1) please Larian give an option to raise the party cap to give or six, it makes it so much easier to get a decent balance between 'I need a balanced party' and 'I want both front liners while playing one myself'.

2) why on earth is Jaheira defaulting dual wielding scimitars in BG3? Her default weapon in 1 is the quarterstaff, she has one in her character portrait, and her most skilled weapon is actually the club. I'd say it's because they wanted to give Halsin a staff but IIRC she was planned to be in the party long before the bear. Maybe her default proficiencies changed in BG2, but I might look into modding the game so she has some kind of +2 +1d6 cold damage quarterstaff instead.

Also I do get why they changed it, but Jaheira isn't a straight classed Druid, she should have Fighter levels. But that would probably make her far too weak with BG3's encounter design.

Psyren

2023-10-15, 03:53 PM

LIVES
All mortal lives
Expire

SOULS
Go to their dooms
In FLAME
Forever More

While "Song of Balduran" is my favorite tune from this game, this one is a close second.

Honestly I like Wyll's horns, and even his eye doesn't bother me that much. What made him start to look wrong to me was noticing the subtle flesh ridges, which he has in places the Tiefling models don't

Oh it's even worse, he literally tells you he has ridges and spikes in his unmentionable areas :smallfrown:

2) why on earth is Jaheira defaulting dual wielding scimitars in BG3? Her default weapon in 1 is the quarterstaff, she has one in her character portrait, and her most skilled weapon is actually the club. I'd say it's because they wanted to give Halsin a staff but IIRC she was planned to be in the party long before the bear. Maybe her default proficiencies changed in BG2, but I might look into modding the game so she has some kind of +2 +1d6 cold damage quarterstaff instead.

It was weird to me too, but at least it made my decision to swap her to Ranger (and Minsc to Berserker Barb) much easier.

Also I do get why they changed it, but Jaheira isn't a straight classed Druid, she should have Fighter levels. But that would probably make her far too weak with BG3's encounter design.

Everyone is straight-classed by default because you can't multiclass in Story difficulty. You can't adjust their stats on story difficulty either, which causes some incongruities (No way does Minsc only have 12 Strength, but because he's a ranger, that's where they default him to.) I would take the "default builds" for each character with a heaping helping of salt.