Is a Psi Warrior’s Telekinesis Good?

[Blatant Beast]

I am DM-ing a 5e adaptation of a 2e AD&D game, and one of the PCs is going to be a modified 18th level Psi Warrior with a Vorpal Blade.

The range on Telekinesis is very short, only 60’. If you raise something 60’ in the air, horizontally, the caster as a consequence would have to be directly beneath whatever they are levitating. This does not seem ideal, especially if you plan on dropping the target for falling damage.

Is potentially subjecting one target with the Restrained Condition worth trading your attacks from being a fighter for?

The answer seems to be: perhaps, but generally, No.

A 18th level Psi Warrior, wielding a Vorpal Blade against a Telekinetically Restrained target, would have 4 Attacks at Advantage if they use their Action Surge and Bonus Action attack granted by their Telekinetic Master ability.

Seems good. Odds of Snicker/Snack are high.

The limiting factors would be the number of Action Surges, the size of the target, and the Saving Throw DC for Telekinesis which is probably going to be around DC 18, (which presumes around an 18 Intelligence).

In terms of out of combat use, Telekinesis seems really weak, being limited to 1,000 pounds for an object. A Huge size creature might exceed a 1,000 pounds in weight. A male Elephant may weigh 5 Tons, for example.

Telekinesis can pick up an Elephant, but couldn’t pick up an Elephant statue of equivalent weight to the animal. That is silly, and bad design.

Overall, though, Telekinetic Master, seems to hurt a Psi Warrior in terms of damage output, if not used in conjunction with Action Surge.

Is it worth it as an Archer based PC to trade off regular attacks for a single attack with Advantage at 18th level?

Generally, I do not think so.

The Vorpal Blade, with it’s chance to insta-kill, is probably the best use case for a single attack with Advantage.

The difficulty lies in the uncomfortable truth that a Psi Warrior armed with a Vorpal Sword has a greater likelihood of having a Critical a hit with 3 Attacks than they are with a Single Attack with Advantage.

Telekinetic Master is a combat debuff for a Psi Warrior.

[Amnestic]

While being able to restrain a character with telekinesis to hit them with advantage is nice, I'm not sure it's the primary draw of the ability. Being able to hold melee creatures in the air where they can do nothing, being able to disarm or disarmour enemies, or snatch important plot mcguffins from the altar.

The features of being able to cast Telekinesis up to a dozen times per long rest (if you go hog wild with your psi-dies) is the draw. The bonus action attack is a...well, bonus. If you want to be proccing your Vorpal Sword, you're right, it's probably best to just attack a bunch, but if you want to be a psionic guy moving stuff with your mind then you should be playing an aberrant sorcerer then yeah, psi-warrior telekinesis is pretty good for that.

[Unoriginal]

Telekinetic Master is a combat debuff for a Psi Warrior.

There is more to being a Psi Warrior Fighter than DPR.

Even if you're using Telekinetic Master specifically to restrain a foe during a combat situation in order to deal more damage, the whole group benefits from it.

And that is far, far from the only use of Telekinesis.

Also keep in mind that at lvl 18, Psi Warriors can add 1d12+Int mod to one of their strikes each turn, so that diminish the DPR loss of having only one attack with advantage on that turn.

[Blatant Beast]

Moving unattended objects with your mind is something Mage Hand does.
An Arcane Trickster can use their Invisible Mage Hand to perform delicate tasks as well…meanwhile their action economy stays the same.

A Strength based Psi Warrior can use Psi Powered leap to move 60’ in most cases and could grapple/shove things out of creatures hands as an ad hoc action, which is more effective.

A Telekinesis DC of 16 is only around a 55% of being effective against a +4 saving throw. Keep in mind this is in Tier 4 play. A +4 Modifier total to Saving Throw is conservative and certainly not representative of a high CR creature’s best saving throw modifier.

This is before Legendary Resistance is considered.

Telekinetic Master, should entail either a boost to the Saving Throw DC or at the least the DC should be based off a primary ability score……otherwise the ability is more accurately named: Telekinetic Scrub.

I am not disparaging the subclass concept, I am concerned that the subclass capstone is lackluster. The “there is more to being a fighter than just damage” is sorta funny….in 5e a fighter is pretty much about damage.

A 5e Jedi *cough* Psi Warrior is basically moving fast, striking hard, occasionally absorbing some damage, and moving things, awkwardly with your mind.

The Rune Knight has the skill buffs…..the Psi Warrior is just mostly combat tricks with a really nice Dash Action.

[Amnestic]

Telekinesis has nothing to do with saving throws, and so legendary resistance is irrelevant (or 'useless', if you prefer).

The spell provokes strength checks - not even athletics checks. It also means that strength save proficiency does nothing for the target.

[Unoriginal]

A Telekinesis DC of 16

How are you getting DC 16?


The “there is more to being a fighter than just damage” is sorta funny….in 5e…you pretty much are about damage.

Which is why the Psi Warrior cannot move themselves, allies, foes and elements of the environment around, nor diminish damage on both themselves and allies.

Wait a minute...



A 5e Jedi is basically moving fast, striking hard, occasionally absorbing some damage, and moving things, awkwardly with your mind.

So much for not disparaging the subclass, eh?

I don't know by which metric the Psi Warrior's moving-things-with-your-mind would be considered awkward.

Amnestic's point is also 100% correct.

[Bobthewizard]

Since it uses an action each round to maintain, Telekinesis is a bit of a niche spell, but it can be clutch at times. See Amnestic's post above. Taking a melee enemy out of a fight can be a good use of your ongoing actions.

If all you want is advantage though, Psi Warrior is great at generating that. If my first attack hits, I always add a Psionic Strike with Telekinetic thrust to knock the enemy prone so to try to get advantage on the rest of my attacks.

But my favorite part of the build is the Psi-powered Leap. Flight at double your speed is amazing. I have a pair of boots of speed so on my turn, I can move 240' with the dash action. If I had thought about it more, I would have been a tabaxi and taken the mobile feet, to be able to move 640' in a turn.

[stoutstien]

Oddly you can use just for the bonus action attack even if you don't actively use the primary function.

[diplomancer]

Also the fact that it's a check, not a saving throw, means team sinergy with features like Hex and Cutting Words is easier to achieve.

[J-H]

I've always looked at it as an out-of-combat problem solving ability. How many exploration challenges can't be solved by telekinesis?

[Unoriginal]

A bit of math, for fun.

A lvl 18 Fighter would have 6 ASIs. Even if the Fighter started with 14 STR and 14 INT (which is unusual but possible), that is enough ASIs to have 20 in both stats at this point. Making their DC 19.

Meaning that a Balor or Pit Fiend, with +8 to STR, would need to roll 11+ to resist the Psi Warrior's Telekinesis.

I dunno for you, but to me that's far from bad or anecdotic.

[LudicSavant]

Telekinesis can pick up an Elephant, but couldn’t pick up an Elephant statue of equivalent weight to the animal. That is silly, and bad design.

Agreed.

Telekinesis can lift Huge creatures; an elephant can be something like 13,000 pounds.
But Telekinesis can only lift Objects up to 1000 pounds. Which is something like a 2 foot rock.

This is, of course, complete nonsense. The weight of objects you can lift in 5e is completely out of whack with the weight of creatures you can toss around -- not just for Telekinesis, but for the broader grappling, pushing, lifting, and dragging rules, too. It's why your Barbarian can't lift stuff that Conan can lift (and Conan is pretty grounded / low fantasy. Not nearly as powerful as high level D&D characters are supposed to be).

We're not talking about a small discrepancy here; this is bigger than a literal order of magnitude. So yeah, like you said: Silly, and bad design.

[Blatant Beast]

Since it uses an action each round to maintain, Telekinesis is a bit of a niche spell, but it can be clutch at times. \
That is the entire point, anything can be 'clutch' at times.
I already delineated such a case, (Psi Warrior with Vorpal Blade).
A few corner cases, does not necessarily make something good.


So much for not disparaging the subclass, eh?


I do not think it is disparaging to point out that Telekinetic Movement is a bit awkward to use.
I do not think is is disparaging to point out that the very Star Wars thing of using the Force as a Reaction, to keep a friend or something important from falling is not easy to achieve under 5e rules. (it requires a Readied Action)


A bit of math, for fun.

A lvl 18 Fighter would have 6 ASIs. Even if the Fighter started with 14 STR and 14 INT (which is unusual but possible), that is enough ASIs to have 20 in both stats at this point. Making their DC 19.

Meaning that a Balor or Pit Fiend, with +8 to STR, would need to roll 11+ to resist the Psi Warrior's Telekinesis.


Keep in mind, in my initial post the DC I postulated for the Psi Warrior's TK is 18, this is a quibbe over a point or so of DC.

A 55% chance of success is better than no success, but the X-COM player in me would not categorize a 55% chance of success as 'Good'.

If you were offered the chance to select a chocolate covered confection from a box of candy, with only a 45% chance of selecting a poisoned chocolate, are you taking the chance?

J-H...while I agree that TK has great exploration potential, this potential is on the same order as any spellcaster with TK. TK Movement, in of itself might be sufficient that a usage of TK is not needed. I like the fact that a Psi Warrior can spam Telekinesis, I just question how much use that is, without pandering in one's Adventure design.

[Unoriginal]

Keep in mind, in my initial post the DC I postulated for the Psi Warrior's TK is 18, this is a quibbe over a point or so of DC.

I mean, later you said the DC would be 16.

A STR check without proficiency also makes it much harder to meet the DC.



If you were offered the chance to select a chocolate covered confection from a box of candy, with only a 45% chance of selecting a poisoned chocolate, are you taking the chance?

I wouldn't risk poisoning for a chocolate, no matter how much I love chocolate.

If you had 55% of stopping the BBEG's top enforcer from flying away with the MacGuffin, would you try it ?

[Amnestic]

Telekinesis Master (not sure why you've moved onto TK movement) should probably be evaluated against other fighter subclass capstones at 18th level, instead of a nebulous 'spellcaster'.

Arcane Archer gets a 2d6 damage bump on their arcane shots (save for Seeking Arrow, which goes up by 1d6).
Banneret gets to to spread its Inspiring Surge to one additional creature (essentially, one extra attack per action surge).
Battlemaster dice goes from d10 to d12.
Cavalier gets 1/turn OA instead of 1/round.
Champion gets a self-heal of 5+ConMod/turn while below half health.
Echo Knight can create a second echo at the same time, plus regains a use of Unleash Incarnation when you roll initiative.
Eldritch Knight expands War Magic from just cantrips to any spell cast for their free BA attack.
Rune Knight Giant Might damage goes from d8 to d10, they can grow to Huge, and if so they get increased range.
Samurai get Strength before Death letting them take an extra turn if they drop to 0HP 1/LR.

Is TK Master better or worse than these? Even at its worst with no other psi-dice invested or special uses of it, you just precast the spell (with no components, mind you) and get a fight or two with a free bonus action attack so long as you maintain concentration (and with Consave prof and moderate Con investment, that's not exactly unreasonable).
Four attacks is more than three attacks, so the psi warrior in our hypothetical vorpal blade example is probably loving life.

But it also does more than just that, since you have the flexibility to disarm/de-armour people, or grab them in place, or grab objects as the fight requires it, so it's got added flexibility if you need/want it.

[Dork_Forge]

Yes, it is.

Wait, were we meant to say more than that?

To be honest, it really just seems like you have a general disdain for the subclass for some reason. Telekinetic Master is both an improved version of Telekinesis (no components, making casting easier and Coutner Spelling it impossible) and a combat buff rolled into one:

- It builds on the Jedi theme of the subclass and makes you better at moving things and affecting creatures, this is a good addition of versatility especially with Action Surge in play. Remember, the Fighter has two uses of Action Surge by the time this feature comes up.
- It gives you an additional attack. Given that Telekinesis has a duration of 10 minutes, it's reasonably likely you could precast it before many encounters and just treat it like an attack-based powerup.

Your initial gripe seems to be that 60' isn't high enough to drop someone, which is weird since it would take you two actions to get someone that high anyway. You then move on to question whether or not restraining someone for an action is worth it, the answer is yes because it's a party game and this is a Fighter anyway, but it seems weird to me you're isolating them. You can use your action to raise a target 30 ft. and then start attacking them. Your next turn you make all your normal attacks, they're still restrained after all. Then at the end of your turn they fall 30 ft., take 3d6 fall damage, and end up prone. Your confusion of it having a DC vs it being a stat contest also misconstrues how much of a chance of success a creature even has.

Given that you're getting advantage, your party is getting advantage, and the creature has disadvantage for two of your turns on an effect that should be pretty easy to set up, that's pretty worth it.

I'd also recommend you stop evaluating a subclass based on a Vorpal Sword. 'Gain Vorpal Sword' is not a class feature.



You also seem to be ragging on Telekinetic Movement for some reason, as someone that used that feature to move multiple allies out of very dangerous situations, it's pretty nice. Your complaint that you can't stop someone falling with it is a bit odd, that's not really what the ability is for and mapping Star Wars tropes to a system not intended to replicate Star Wars is not going to end well, the Psi Warrior does force user pretty well.

Side note: I can't actually think of any iconic times someone uses the force to stop someone falling, force use (in a telekinetic application) by good guys is generally underwhelming, and mostly the odd push or grabbing a lightsaber.

[Blatant Beast]

To be honest, it really just seems like you have a general disdain for the subclass for some reason. Telekinetic Master is both an improved version of Telekinesis (no components, making casting easier and Coutner Spelling it impossible) and a combat buff rolled into one:

I have stated many times, that I like the subclass.
I contend, one can be critical of something and still like it.
Rest Assured I didn't start a thread about the Psi Warrior, because I dislike the subclass, or wanted to trash talk it.

I skipped most of your post, Dork Forge. The post felt aggressive to me, and I prefer to not engage with that type of discourse.

What I did read seemed to share the same substance as what I wrote in my first post:

" Is potentially subjecting one target with the Restrained Condition worth trading your attacks from being a fighter for?

The answer seems to be: perhaps, but generally, No."

Consider us agreed, that Psi Warriors are awesome, and there are plenty of cases in which all their abilities are great.

That said, given the nature of 5e a there are plenty of times in which giving up attacks is not the great thing to do.....such as a Psi Warrior with a Vorpal Blade.

Anything that deals extra damage, such as a Flameblade, Great Weapon Master, Girdles of Giant Power and Potions of Giant Strength, or the like, generate more value with more attacks.

[Psyren]

It's an okay subclass, middle of the road. The MADness keeps it from being as good as, say, Battlemaster and Rune Knight, but it's definitely ahead of Champion, Samurai, and PDK. It just is what it is.

[Dork_Forge]

I have stated many times, that I like the subclass.
I contend, one can be critical of something and still like it.
Rest Assured I didn't start a thread about the Psi Warrior, because I dislike the subclass, or wanted to trash talk it.

I mean, I agree about the critical but still liking it thing, but the closest thing to saying you like the subclass in this entire thread is 'I am not disparaging the subclass concept' which is not saying anything about the subclass itself, or really a glowing praise of even the concept you're referring to.


I skipped most of your post, Dork Forge. The post felt aggressive to me, and I prefer to not engage with that type of discourse.

It was not my intention to come across that way, tone in text is difficult to convey. I apologise if my reply somehow came across as aggressive.


What I did read seemed to share the same substance as what I wrote in my first post:

" Is potentially subjecting one target with the Restrained Condition worth trading your attacks from being a fighter for?

The answer seems to be: perhaps, but generally, No."

Consider us agreed, that Psi Warriors are awesome, and there are plenty of cases in which all their abilities are great.

If you're not going to read my post I'd rather you not engage with it than do this. At no point do I agree with the point you made in the OP and have highlighted here. I think the Capstone is great, be it in comparison to other Fighter capstones or just generally.


That said, given the nature of 5e a there are plenty of times in which giving up attacks is not the great thing to do.....such as a Psi Warrior with a Vorpal Blade.

Anything that deals extra damage, such as a Flameblade, Great Weapon Master, Girdles of Giant Power and Potions of Giant Strength, or the like, generate more value with more attacks.

Yes, there are times to do that. You asked if the feature was good, there being cases where you might not want to use it because you have a DM-given magic item is not an argument that it isn't.

And since you chose to not read most of what you replied to, I'll highlight this here so that you might read and consider it:

This is a team game, giving up some attacks for Restrained has the potential to significantly help the entire party, as well as yourself. Nevermind the fact that the ability isn't just limited to combat.

[Hairfish]

If you ain't using your TK to drag the BBEG 60' into the air, using your bonus action (next turn) to leap into the air next to them, dropping concentration, and then chopping them 6-8x on the way down (with a vorpal blade, even!), then I don't even know what you're doing with your life.

Making the final attack a grapple and piledriving/
suplexing the remaining unpureed chunks of BBEG into the ground is also acceptable.

[Blatant Beast]

It was not my intention to come across that way, tone in text is difficult to convey. I apologise if my reply somehow came across as aggressive.

Thank you for this, I appreciate it.


This is a team game, giving up some attacks for Restrained has the potential to significantly help the entire party, as well as yourself. Nevermind the fact that the ability isn't just limited to combat.

D&D games with a single or two players and a DM also exist.
The truism about D&D being a team game, strikes me as having a similar truth value to the truism that Fighters benefit from having more attacks.

What I am interested in is examining the details.

The Restrained Condition impacts Dexterity Saving Throws…so in a spell heavy party one might see a boost in Fireball damage against a single target…..is that worth it?

Again, I would say probably not. Please note, within that ‘probably not’ there is acknowledgment that sometimes it might be worth it.

Applying the Restrained Condition against a foe facing a party of Crit Fishing Elven Dexadins, probably would be worth it.

[Amnestic]

What I am interested in is examining the details.

You say this, but until it was pointed out to you, you believed that it provoked saving throws and legendary resistance applied, so it doesn't feel very detail focused.

Out of the 9 other fighter subclasses, how many of their 18th level features do you consider superior to TK Master?



The Restrained Condition impacts Dexterity Saving Throws…so in a spell heavy party one might see a boost in Fireball damage against a single target…..is that worth it?


Why pick Fireball when we're in the middle of Tier 4? Why not Disintegrate? Is helping to ensure a ~75 damage spell finds its mark 'worth it' at the cost of two attacks? Or locking them inside a Blade Barrier?

[Blatant Beast]

You say this, but until it was pointed out to you, you believed that it provoked saving throws and legendary resistance applied, so it doesn't feel very detail focused.

Fair Enough. I am not infallible, and frankly D20 Tests often feel the same, despite the differing labels of Saving Throws, Ability Checks etc.

There is a reason why D20 Tests is a Playtest thing….


Out of the 9 other fighter subclasses, how many of their 18th level features do you consider superior to TK Master?

I think this question has a misplaced point of view. What I find more alarming is the general weakness of Fighter Subclass Capstone Abilities in general, especially when compared to the capstone abilities of primary caster subclasses.

The Arcane Archer is a design misstep all around…and subsequent designs are better. Comparing the Arcane Archer’s Capstone to a Psi Warrior just doesn’t tell us that much info, other than Fighter Subclass capstones, as a whole tend to be weak.


Why pick Fireball when we're in the middle of Tier 4? Why not Disintegrate? Is helping to ensure a ~75 damage spell finds its mark 'worth it' at the cost of two attacks? Or locking them inside a Blade Barrier?

I referenced Fireball, because it is the most famous Dexterity/Reflex/Save vs Magic spell in D&D, and at 5am in the morning, (around the time I wrote the referenced post), it seemed an easy touchstone.

Amnestic, instead of the adversarial type interrogations… I suggest instead that you just make your best use case for the ability. Write up your Disintegrate scenario and we can discuss the scenario…the assumptions and so forth…what usually passes for a constructive conversation.

One common comment about Dexterity Saving Throws is failing one tends to lead towards damage, whereas failing a Mental Save often leads to being subject to control type effects.

Folks, I am not interested in gotcha/whataboutism/ accusations that I don’t like the subclass etc….my original post gives an accurate picture of the my viewpoint behind the genesis of this thread:

I am DM-ing a game this weekend with an 18th level Psi Warrior and was considering the ability and made an observation.

I expect some disagreement, that is how we have a discussion…but I don’t see how my feelings on the subclass have any direct impact on the substance of my arguments….would it be possible to leave those externalities out of it?

[Psyren]

I expect some disagreement, that is how we have a discussion…but I don’t see how my feelings on the subclass have any direct impact on the substance of my arguments….would it be possible to leave those externalities out of it?

I guess I'm not entirely sure what your argument even is though. That Psi Warrior is weak? Compared to what? That you don't see the usefulness of its telekinetic abilities? They're primarily utility, Fighters don't exactly need help on the combat front (and even if they did, Psi Warriors get that too.) That casters are better? Uhhh... yeah?

[Hairfish]

I guess I'm not entirely sure what your argument even is though.

"If a Psi Warrior faces off alone against a WoW-style training dummy, then they do less average DPR if they use their level 18 subclass ability than if they don't."

[Amnestic]

Fair Enough. I am not infallible, and frankly D20 Tests often feel the same,

And yet they're not - direct strength checks are drastically weaker than saving throws (or athletics checks) because there's no proficiency bonus to contend with. In tier 4, a proficiency bonus on an enemy could stretch from anywhere from +3 to +8 to their roll. Ignoring that is not a minor aspect of the spell, nor is being able to bypass Legendary Resistance. Acquiring disadvantage on an enemy ability checks (or, as noted, something like Cutting Words) is also typically a lot easier than doing the same for a saving throw.

These are not things to be overlooked when analysing the relative strength of the spell.



I think this question has a misplaced point of view. What I find more alarming is the general weakness of Fighter Subclass Capstone Abilities in general, especially when compared to the capstone abilities of primary caster subclasses.

It's not misplaced; if you're choosing to play a fighter - and clearly we are, since the chosen example is "attacking with a Vorpal Sword" - then which subclass offers the most to doing so is the key question, and psi-warrior performs 'good' at that, since TK master gets a free extra attack to do it. I'm unsure why you'd include other class's subclass capstones in the discussion - we're 18 levels deep, clearly we want to be playing a Fighter. A life cleric's Supreme Healing doesn't really feel relevant to the discussion.


Write up your Disintegrate scenario and we can discuss the scenario…the assumptions and so forth…what usually passes for a constructive conversation.

I've justified it being good based off a "worst" case scenario, that being precasting it and getting multiple turns of free bonus action attacks. Four attacks is more than three attacks. You don't even need to precast it to be good. If your fight lasts 3 rounds (a typical average), then you come out equal on total attacks (1/4/4 vs. 3/3/3) plus you get one turn of being able to attempt a restrain or a disarm or similar. This is good, especially since the second round's attacks are all made at advantage if the restrain does land.

Being able to cast it without any components means that it can be cast unseen and unnoticed, such as during a villain's monologue, or while in stealth - these are likewise aspects that shouldn't be overlooked in it being precastable.



One common comment about Dexterity Saving Throws is failing one tends to lead towards damage, whereas failing a Mental Save often leads to being subject to control type effects.


The most effective control type effect in the game the enemy being dead, especially if your tier 4 foe has legendary resistances negating all those mental save effects. TK master not helping to land a wis-save effect doesn't detract from it at all. Unless you're aiming for a diplomatic solution, killing the enemy is how fights end, and that is done via hit point damage.



Folks, I am not interested in gotcha/whataboutism/ accusations that I don’t like the subclass etc….my original post gives an accurate picture of the genesis of this thread


I haven't commented at all on your feelings on the subclass, only your methods of analysing it. It is not a 'gotcha' to point out that you were wrong (regarding the saving throw aspect) or that your choice of analysis is strange.


"If a Psi Warrior faces off alone against a WoW-style training dummy, then they do less average DPR if they use their level 18 subclass ability than if they don't."

See above - this is true for perhaps 1-2 turns (if Restrain doesn't land), equal over 3, and they are better from turn 4 onwards.

But rarely do you fight training dummies anyway - you're fighting enemies, who attack you back, alongside allies, who can take advantage (literally) of you restraining them.

[Psyren]

"If a Psi Warrior faces off alone against a WoW-style training dummy, then they do less average DPR if they use their level 18 subclass ability than if they don't."

Is it a rule that all subclass capstones, or even just Fighter subclass capstones, should increase DPR? Because Samurai, Champion, and even Echo Knight would like a word if so.

[Hairfish]

Oh, I don't find the OP's argument particularly compelling. They were just having a lot of trouble making it succinctly.

[Blatant Beast]

Oh, I don't find the OP's argument particularly compelling. They were just having a lot of trouble making it succinctly.

Facts are not particularly compelling...just look at history and the world around us.

I thought adding context would help explain my P.o.V.
(I was wrong)

Again...Telekinetic Master is a combat debuff, in terms of the specific damage output for the Psi Warrior. An Echo Knight's Capstone does not reduce their damage output, neither does the Samurai Fighter's Capstone.

The Fighter Chassis is designed to spam attacks, and be resilient. The Champion and Samurai Capstones are leaning into the resiliency aspect of the class.

In my opinion, any options provided by Setting books used for argumentation purposes, need to be viewed with a grain of salt, for the mere fact that options intended for a specific setting may not be allowed in other settings. That stated, I am not going comment on the Echo Knight....like Ravenloft's Dark Gifts, Wildemont options are not going to be ubiquitous.

If we take Amnestic's contention that the Psi Warrior actually has one of the better capstones for Fighter subclasses as correct, then we see another, more generalized issue of Fighter capstone design; mainly that is a bit underwhelming, especially when compared to Paladin Subclass Capstones.

Paladin Subclass capstones are obtained at 20th level, compared to a Fighter's 18th level, but many of the Wizard capstones obtained at 14th level are more powerful than Telekinetic Master.

The Transmuter Wizard is healing someone of all diseases and all damage, or raising someone from the Dead, and the Transmuter Wizard is not generally acclaimed as a powerhouse.

Telekinetic Master is a C Grade ability, in terms of impact. Sometimes the ability will be great, but mostly it is just "ok".
Flavorwise, I do agree with Dork Forge, that TK Master is an excellent fit, it just needs a bit more baking.

[Unoriginal]

Again...Telekinetic Master is a combat debuff, in terms of the specific damage output for the Psi Warrior.

Yes, but only for specific damage output and only for 1 turn. Then it's a straight up a combat buff not only for the Psi Warrior, but also for the whole team, including in term of damage output.


So it cannot accurately be called a combat debuff or even a DPR debuff.



Telekinetic Master is a C Grade ability, in terms of impact. Sometimes the ability will be great, but mostly it is just "ok".

It gives the Psi Warrior an additional attack as long as Concentration is maintained, even if you don't use it to restrain people or move stuff/people around.

I don't see how that can be considered just "ok".

[Bobthewizard]

If we take Amnestic's contention that the Psi Warrior actually has one of the better capstones for Fighter subclasses as correct, then we see another, more generalized issue of Fighter capstone design; mainly that is a bit underwhelming, especially when compared to Paladin Subclass Capstones.

Paladin Subclass capstones are obtained at 20th level, compared to a Fighter's 18th level, but many of the Wizard capstones obtained at 14th level are more powerful than Telekinetic Master.

Paladin capstones are given in their subclass. Fighter's capstone, an always on 4th attack, is given through the base class. Some classes rely more on the subclass, and some more on the base class. I'm not sure any of the Paladin capstone's are as good as a 4th attack that you can use every round all day long.

Even if you don't ever move anything with the telekinesis, and there are definitely times in a team game where it will be very useful, a BA attack every round for 10 minutes is pretty great.

[Dork_Forge]

Again...Telekinetic Master is a combat debuff, in terms of the specific damage output for the Psi Warrior. An Echo Knight's Capstone does not reduce their damage output, neither does the Samurai Fighter's Capstone.


There is literally nothing to support this claim of it being a combat debuff. You're focused on using it during combat and 'missing' out on 3 attacks, but you can just precast it before combat and lose no attacks, but gain the bonus action attack every turn.

Having the flexibility of Telekinesis, but the guaranteed way of getting bonus action attacks is nothing but a buff. If there are some niche scenarios where using it would be suboptimal... then just don't use it.