What's the height limit of Devil Snare spell

[arkieNork]

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/devil-snare/

I cast it in on the floor of 10ft by 10 ft corridor.
Than I go out of the corridor and cast it on the floor of a hall with 50ft high ceiling
then I go outside and cast it on even ground

Let's say a Hell Hound and a quasit are coming at me.
Can the quasit simply fly over all 3? if not than which ones and at what height
Can the hell hound jump directly across these circles?

Are there similar rules with such wording?

[tyckspoon]

It extends into the air as a sphere (well, hemisphere/dome, assuming you're casting it on the ground as a reference point), as anything with a radius would - we just normally track them as 2d shapes because there is not very often Z-axis movement that matters, but 'radius' means tracing a sphere in all dimensions, not just the circle shape at ground level. Could be flown over easily if there is space above to permit it. Potentially leaped, but it would take a pretty impressive Acrobatics check to clear a 10-foot high hurdle and avoid passing through any of the affected space of the spell.

.. this looks like one of the spells where the author forgot what the rules jargon meant, or thought they were being clear because they knew what they meant and thought they were using standard terms when they aren't. Personally, I'd probably make this a range Close spell, Area: 10-foot radius Emanation. Get rid of the weirdness with the Touch range and use the standard definition for a spell's area of effect. Alternatively, explicitly spell out that you really do mean a flat circle on the touched surface and it only works on things that cross it on foot (it's a particularly bad spell under that interpretation, and it's not a great spell with a more generous reading anyways.)

[Rynjin]

"Radius" does not imply a sphere. It is explicitly a circle. It has no height.

You Touch the ground (range) and make a circle. I'm extremely confused as to where the assumptions that it is a sphere or cylinder come from when it literally says "circle".

Same as Teleportation Circle. It does not make a cylinder with a radius of 5 ft. and an infinite height that teleports anything that intersects said infinitely long cylinder. Because it's a circle. Not a cylinder. Not a sphere. A circle. Two dimensions.


Alternatively, explicitly spell out that you really do mean a flat circle on the touched surface

It does though

"Your touch creates an invisible circle on a flat surface"

[Crake]

"Radius" does not imply a sphere. It is explicitly a circle. It has no height.

You Touch the ground (range) and make a circle. I'm extremely confused as to where the assumptions that it is a sphere or cylinder come from when it literally says "circle".

Same as Teleportation Circle. It does not make a cylinder with a radius of 5 ft. and an infinite height that teleports anything that intersects said infinitely long cylinder. Because it's a circle. Not a cylinder. Not a sphere. A circle. Two dimensions.



It does though

"Your touch creates an invisible circle on a flat surface"

This interpretation creates dysfunction though, because by this logic, no creature will ever pass THROUGH the circle, only OVER it, and they cannot be trapped in the confines of the circle, because by their very nature of being 3d creatures they cannot exist within the confines of the 2d circle, as it has no volume.

The entire spell was written from a 2d battlemap perspective, not taking into account the 3d nature of both creatures and how that would interact with the spell.

The most logical solution is to make it a 3d space, probably a cylinder in my opinion, or for it to be a root effect locking the creatures feet in place if they step in it. The former cannot be jumped over without sufficient height, the latter can be.

[arkieNork]

Same as Teleportation Circle.

Thank you. Looking at it, its actually not the same, but very relevant for its difference
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/teleportation-circle/
"any creature who stands on it "
So there is a 'circle' spell here with example of how it would be phrased if the target explicitly had to make contact with the surface.

Comparing it to Circle Against Evil - that one is explicitly listed as emanation from a center point, again relevant in its difference.

I am wondering if making it a tactically endless cylinder would make it too powerful. It explicitly came up in my game for this reason. Players are trying to knock a Vrock out of the sky with this spell and arguing the vrock should take full falling damage if it fails the save.
In our situation, they can try that because I took this encounter from a module where a trio of vrocks are slowly descending in ambush, pretending to be vultures, flying in a repetitive circling pattern. If I go with the player's interpretation and the vrock fails will save, it can't make a dc40 (25 collision + 15 hover) and will be falling for 15d6 damage. But this is a specific scenario where the target is at a height great enough to matter in terms of falling damage and yet flying in a relatively small circle so its easy to predict its flight path from the ground. (I am thinking of throwing a 15 DC int check in there for them to accurately estimate that path based on passing shadows in the relevant time frame of 1 round)

But outside of that scenario would this spell become OP or exploitable in some combination if I allowed it to affect any height relevant in tactical combat?

On a side note, this spell has
"Spell Resistance yes; see text"

And than the text doesn't mention spell resistance. The closest is
An outsider can resist this effect with a successful Will save, enabling it to remain after the spell is dismissed.

Is it proper to interpret that as in SR is of no helping in simply leaving the circle or passing through it, but only if its used to try and banish the outsider?

[Biggus]

This interpretation creates dysfunction though, because by this logic, no creature will ever pass THROUGH the circle, only OVER it, and they cannot be trapped in the confines of the circle, because by their very nature of being 3d creatures they cannot exist within the confines of the 2d circle, as it has no volume.


That's a very fine hair you're splitting there, D&D isn't a science textbook. Also, if we're really going to be pedantic, this is only true if the ground is absolutely, perfectly flat. If it's even a little uneven, as any nonmagical ground will be, you'll pass through the circle if you step inside it.

[Rynjin]

This interpretation creates dysfunction though, because by this logic, no creature will ever pass THROUGH the circle, only OVER it, and they cannot be trapped in the confines of the circle, because by their very nature of being 3d creatures they cannot exist within the confines of the 2d circle, as it has no volume.

The entire spell was written from a 2d battlemap perspective, not taking into account the 3d nature of both creatures and how that would interact with the spell.

You mean like...the entire rest of the game?




Comparing it to Circle Against Evil - that one is explicitly listed as emanation from a center point, again relevant in its difference.

And as a result, Magic Circle Against Evil is a poor spell to compare it to, as it is explicitly an emanation, where Devil Snare is explicitly a circle. You cannot apply rules for one to the other.


I am wondering if making it a tactically endless cylinder would make it too powerful. It explicitly came up in my game for this reason. Players are trying to knock a Vrock out of the sky with this spell and arguing the vrock should take full falling damage if it fails the save.

The question of power is largely irrelevant, it's a combination of the RAW (which is against this interpretation) and the silliness (you gonna map out the infinite cylinder on and on through the entire universe and roll saving throws for every Outsider it intersects on its way to the edge of the universe?).



And than the text doesn't mention spell resistance. The closest is
An outsider can resist this effect with a successful Will save, enabling it to remain after the spell is dismissed.

Is it proper to interpret that as in SR is of no helping in simply leaving the circle or passing through it, but only if its used to try and banish the outsider?

THIS is a much more ambiguous question, yeah. Given that nothing magical actually triggers until the Outsider attempts to LEAVE the circle (not enter), I would say SR is checked right before the save is made, yes. That is typically the assumption made, but I don't think there's any hard and fast RAW for this one.

In general, I'll leave it at this: the RAW perspective is that the effect is a flat circle on the ground. RAI, I'm guessing the intended usage of this spell was for the classic "I draw a circle on the ground and then put a rug over it and trick the demon into standing on it" trick you see in a lot of fantasy media.

From a houseruling perspective, I strongly urge against the "infinite cylinder" interpretation, as it is going to lead to headaches down the line. If you want to buff the spell (as it is VERY weak), I would suggest houseruling it to be an emanation, even a cylindrical one, with a fixed maximum height. Maybe something like 10 ft. per caster level? I'd also make it an "SR: No" spell as an added bonus. It would still be really niche then, but much more usable.

[arkieNork]

(you gonna map out the infinite cylinder on and on through the entire universe and roll saving throws for every Outsider it intersects on its way to the edge of the universe?).

From a houseruling perspective, I strongly urge against the "infinite cylinder" interpretation, as it is going to lead to headaches down the line.

to clarify, when I said 'tactically endless cylinder ' i meant 'endless for the purpose of tactical combat'. (sorry if my phrasing was unclear there.)

Which on a vertical plane is rarely reaching for heights above 500ft. So in-universe, the spell would have a limit at some point, just not one that would ever become relevant enough to be determined. For my current situation, if I allowed it to work as the players want, I guess I could house rule to set that limit at 20ft per caster level.

I guess what I am asking at this point is what kind of headaches specifically this might open up (as there are large swathes of 3.x that I am not familiar with)

Regarding SR, I didn't quite understand your reply - is SR meant to be checked if outsider simply tries to walk through the circle, or should it only be checked in response to the caster's attempt to use the Dismissal effect of the spell?

[Rynjin]

to clarify, when I said 'tactically endless cylinder ' i meant 'endless for the purpose of tactical combat'. (sorry if my phrasing was unclear there.)

Which on a vertical plane is rarely reaching for heights above 500ft. So in-universe, the spell would have a limit at some point, just not one that would ever become relevant enough to be determined. For my current situation, if I allowed it to work as the players want, I guess I could house rule to set that limit at 20ft per caster level.

I guess what I am asking at this point is what kind of headaches specifically this might open up (as there are large swathes of 3.x that I am not familiar with)

As a quick example, what are you gonna do when the players get the bright idea to put the Devil Snare on a shield or something and walk around with a cylinder of undefined length which traps any Outsider(s) they point it at? The spell only calls for a flat surface, not a horizontal one. You gonna let them snipe Outsiders from an undetermined distance away and trap them in place any time they want? Throw the "instant falling damage cylinder" at any flying Outsiders?

This interpretation opens up a really obnoxious can of worms that players already inclined to be "creative" by misreading spells will be keen to exploit.


Regarding SR, I didn't quite understand your reply - is SR meant to be checked if outsider simply tries to walk through the circle, or should it only be checked in response to the caster's attempt to use the Dismissal effect of the spell?

Walk through; SR would be checked before the first Will save is called for.

From the Spell Resistance rules on "effects already in place' (the example used is Web).


Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that’s already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.

So the scenario is: Outsider enters the circle (no Will save, not SR check), Outsider attempts to leave (i.e. pass through) the circle, Will save would be called for; SR is checked first.

[arkieNork]

As a quick example, what are you gonna do when the players get the bright idea to put the Devil Snare on a shield
Walk through; SR would be checked before the first Will save is called for.
From the Spell Resistance rules on "effects already in place' (the example used is Web).
So the scenario is: Outsider enters the circle (no Will save, not SR check), Outsider attempts to leave (i.e. pass through) the circle, Will save would be called for; SR is checked first.

its a 10ft radius circle. no more and no less. And its a round per level duration. I guess you could come up with a way to carry around a disk of that size and pivot it at targets and turn it into an anti-flying-outsider tractor beam for a minute or two - but I also think given the hassle to make that work, it's probably ok for it to be allowed to work like that? If the 'cylinder' is not pointed straight up, that means anyone it snags wouldn't be falling straight down either. So if you are angling it on a huge disk, you won't be getting fall damage, you can just trap any outsider you aim at for a few minutes and maybe get them to tumble toward the disk at an incline. And that outsider can still move toward the disk and attack it. If someone has that huge disk and tries to wiggle it around with anything already caught than its not the outsider that's trying to leave the spell effect, its the spell effect that's shifting away and at that point anything caught in it should be released, right?

Thank you for clarification on SR

[Rynjin]

*shrug* If you want to have these arguments at the table, be my guest. I've said my piece.

[Crake]

That's a very fine hair you're splitting there, D&D isn't a science textbook. Also, if we're really going to be pedantic, this is only true if the ground is absolutely, perfectly flat. If it's even a little uneven, as any nonmagical ground will be, you'll pass through the circle if you step inside it.

My point is more to outline out the absurdity of taking it so literally. I think its rather clear that when the author wrote “pass through” they meany on a 2D map, not in a 3D sense. But this of course does not account for passing OVER the circle, as, from a 2d perspective, its exactly the same.

[Zanos]

"Radius" does not imply a sphere.
In D&D 3.5/PF radius does, in fact, imply a sphere. Devil's Snare explicitly says that it's a circle in both the spell text and the area for its entry, though. It creates some thematic weirdness that a devil with any amount of fly speed can just fly 1inch away from a devil snare, but hey, that's how they wrote the spell. I was wondering why I hadn't heard of this spell before. Turns out because it's pretty bad.

[Chronos]

OK, so what if you cast it on a wall instead of a floor? Does it then affect anyone walking past the wall (and if so, how close?), or only creatures climbing the wall?

[Zanos]

The same exact way you'd treat any other 2 dimensional spell? It's not as though this is unprecedented. You have to be in contact with the surface.

[Rynjin]

In D&D 3.5/PF radius does, in fact, imply a sphere.

I'm curious as to why, exactly, you think this?

Spheres are never implied. They are explicitly stated. The text of a spell does what it says it does; no more and no less.

The word "radius" appearing on a spell does not mean it's a sphere. The word "sphere" appearing does. Again; no more and no less. If it says "sphere" (eg. Fireball), it's a sphere. If it says "circle" it's a circle (eg. Devil Snare). if it says "cylinder", it's a cylinder (eg. Flame Strike).

All three spells mentioned use the word "radius", because anything with a circular base (I believe to be fully precise mathematically it would be "intersects a plane as a circle") has a radius. There is no implication to be had, it's explicitly one of the above or something else.

[rel]

The text says a circle, not a sphere or cylinder.
I'd rule that as a trap on the ground or wall. Anything walking or climbing through the circumscribed area gets hit, but it doesn't extend upwards.
An enterprising creature could jump or fly over the trap.

I'd also be cautious about allowing a PC or NPC to place the spell on a moving surface.

[Zanos]

I'm curious as to why, exactly, you think this?
Because the game takes place in 3 dimensions. You can't define a radius centered on a point in a 3 dimensional reality as a circle absent of other context. Moreover, most area descriptions are not specific geometric shapes, they are bursts, emanations, or spreads, all of which are spherical.

[SirNibbles]

Because the game takes place in 3 dimensions. You can't define a radius centered on a point in a 3 dimensional reality as a circle absent of other context. Moreover, most area descriptions are not specific geometric shapes, they are bursts, emanations, or spreads, all of which are spherical.




Other: A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description.

Rules Compendium, page 135


The spell specifically calls it a circle, not a cylinder. A circle exists in 3D space as well- it is all the points in a single plane with a distance less than the radius from the center point. In order to come in contact with the spell's effect, a creature must touch one of the points that the spell is affecting, i.e. they must touch the plane/flat surface.

[Zanos]

Other: A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description.

Rules Compendium, page 135


The spell specifically calls it a circle, not a cylinder.
Yes, which is why I didn't make the argument that devils snare is not a circle.