Top 10 level 8 spells

[Anthrowhale]

We're almost there, now looking at level 8 spells (See 0 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657743-Top-10-cantrips),1 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657825-Top-10-level-1-spells-at-ECL2-amp-20),2 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?658094-Top-10-level-2-spells-at-ECL-4-amp-20),3 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?658251-Top-10-level-3-spells-at-ECL6-amp-20),4 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?658751-Top-10-level-4-spells-at-ECL-8-amp-20#post25846144),5 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?659463-Top-10-level-5-spells-at-ECL-10-amp-20),6 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?660156-Top-10-level-6-spells-at-ECL-12-amp-20),7 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?660357-Top-10-level-7-spells-at-ECL14-and-20)). What are the top 10 level 8 spells? Questions/Comments/Thoughts are welcome. What is a better L8 spell? What should not be on this list?

Some clarifying questions:
What level? I suspect there is no real difference between ECL16 and ECL20 in practice, but if you believe otherwise speak up.
Essentials? Yes, let's include essentials like healing. There are many ways to find this in the game, but a list of 10 spells is also generous.
Combos? Yes, let's include relevant combos.
What about offbeat prestige classes giving early access? I'm happy to make a note about early access, but the general preference was to not include.
What level? For spells at different levels on different lists, it's the level on a core class or domain, and if that's not available on some other base class.


OW Polymorph Any Object (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm). Transmutation. At close range one creature or object up to 100ft^3/level changes into another similar to polymorph for durations from permanent to 20 minutes depending on the extent of the change with a fort save to negates. This spell is incredibly powerful and adaptable since it unlocks type limits, applies to objects, and can explicitly mimic many other transmutation spells. This applies to objects so it also affects undead who typically have a weak fortitude save.
OW Greater Planar Binding (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm). Conjuration(Calling). Call and extract services from outsiders or elementals up to 18HD. This includes L9 cleric spells (Planetar), at will {Meteor Swarm, Greater Invisibility, Mindblank, Polymorph} (Paelyiron), and at-will {Mass Hold Monster, Blasphemy, Greater Dispel Magic, Create Undead, Power Word Stun} (Pit Fiend). Greater spirit binding and greater planar ally appear to be lesser but still potent alternatives.
S Greater Arcane Fusion(Complete Mage). Universal. Cast any standard- action 7- level sorcerer spell known and any standard- action 4- level sorcerer spell known. This is an excellent choice for Arcane Thesis+Twin Spell, but even without it you can nova from a cold start via GAF[Limited Wish[Favor of the martyr][Celerity[...]]] where the "..." can be another GAF.
W Mystic Shield(Anauroch). Abjuration. After a 1 round cast, for round/level touched creature unaffected by L6- spells and SLAs although beneficial spells apply while also negating the enhancement bonus and special properties of magic weapons. Avoiding dealing with the 1 round cast via (for example) Mindworms[Persistent] Mindworms[Ocular] Mystic Shield is essential. The wording of the spell is consistent with a complete shutoff of L6- spells, even if they are SR:No like Globe of Invulnerability (except it's mobile) or antimagic field (except the recipient is unrestricted in casting spells on self). The effect is something like Initiate of Mystra+AMF for L6- spells while not covering supernatural effects. This includes Greater Dispel Magic, [Greater] Anticipate Teleportation, Summon Monster VI, and potentially even Orb of <x>. You'll still want Skin of the Steel Dragon+caster level escalation to resist L7+ SR:Yes spells.
OW Moment of Prescience (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm). Divination. For hour/level discharge effect with no action for a +caster level max +25 insight bonus to an attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, saving throw, or AC. Visions of the Future lasts for a full round but requires an immediate action to activate. The free action activation, long duration, and substantial bonus make this a lifesaver when it's needed.
W Project Multiple Images (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101074620/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20020522a). Illusion(Shadow). For round/level create 1d4+1 shadow creatures within medium range which acts as you direct, from which you can sense and cast spells, and which can appear, disappear, or alter form as a free action. PMI removes many of the limits on Project Image, allowing a spellcaster to effectively "be there" without actually being there, including the ability to cast spells (except on itself). This is an exceptional spell for the "I know it's a trap but I have to do it anyways" situation. Triple Mask provides a similar effect a level earlier, but it requires a feat (Initiate of Cyric) to access. Feats are rarer than spell levels, so Project Multiple Images seems mildly preferred.
D8W9 Frostfell(Frostburn). Transmutation[cold]. After a full round casting, at medium range in one 20' cube/level creatures turn to ice fort save for 20d6 frostburn damage and for an hour/level there is a blizzard with the temperature band dropping by 3 levels cumulative across multiple castings. Frostburn damage (if a creature saves) cannot be naturally healed in cold environments shutting down fast healing and possibly regeneration if your DM believes frostburn nonlethal damage is a thing. This is a massive multi-target lose-if-you-fail-the-save-or-damage anyways effect, something like a combination of Wail of the Banshee (except greater range and area of effect), Meteor Swarm (except greater area of effect, slightly less damage, and the damage sticks). Furthermore, the blizzard conditions create a whiteout effect which Snowsight can see through, Gust of Wind cannot disperse, imposes half movement, and eliminates a dex bonus to AC. The biggest drawback is that you may lose out on quite a bit of loot unless you have access to ice to flesh. The full round casting time is unfortunate, but could potentially be addressed on the wizard side via Uncanny Forethought or Arcane Spellsurge. For Druids, Mindworms[Rapid Spell] would fix this issue.
DO Unearthly Beauty(Exalted Deeds). Transmutation[Good]. For round/level any humanoid within 60' looking directly at you is blinded fort save negates and any creature within 30' looking directly at you dies will save negates, with the ability to turn these effects on or off as a free action. This is persistable. This is not a death effect so it's a nigh-universal passive save-or-die effect. Note also that it's a supernatural ability so spell resistance does not apply. Friendly fire is the biggest drawback here, but since this isn't precisely a gaze attack (creatures must look "directly at you") that's probably avoidable.
Co Evil Weather(Vile Darkness). Conjuration(Creation)[Evil]. After a 1 hour casting time for 3d6 minutes create an evil weather in a 1 mile/level radius. Options include shutting off divine spellcasting for 24 hours, 1d2 damage/round, polymorphing at random, and a rain of frogs to fuel Consumptive Field. The divine spellcasting shutoff option alone makes this a potent choice.
Co Searing Seed(Dragon #300). Conjuratiion(Calling)[Evil]. At close range ranged touch on creature making a Fort save takes 1d6/level max 25d6 nonlethal and failing a save after 1d3 rounds they birth a half-fiend (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) clone which hates the original while taking 25d6 damage + 2d6(females) or 4d6(males) Con damage. This spell has all kinds of ick fluff, but it's undeniably powerful, comparable to a 9th level Ice Assassin, except creating creatures that can heal normally and also benefit from a template. A major downside is that they are under no obligation to behave and are evil by default. Another downside is that the half-fiend template requires non-good alignment and Int>3, plausibly limiting applicability. The first downside can potentially be partially addressed using a redeemery approach (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?410846-The-Redeemery-Saving-Souls-for-Good-and-Profit-Work-in-Progress) to change alignment as well as standard diplomancy. Given the high damage (don't forget the 1d4 constitution drain corruption cost as well), targeting yourself to create circle magic clones requires substantial preparation although it appears feasible. A more straightforward application is farming creatures: in a controlled environment nail prisoners with Searing Seed, heal them up, repeating indefinitely until you run out of slots, then allow the clones to kill the original and coopt all the clones for your use.


Co=Corrupt, D=Druid, O=dOmain, S=Sorcerer only, W=Wizard

Counts by:
class: 2Co, 2D, 4O, 1S, 5W
school: 1 Abj, 3 Conj, 1 Div, 1 Illus, 3 Trans, 1 Universal
modifiers: 2 Calling, 1 Cold, 1 Creation, 2 Evil, 1 Good, 1 Shadow
source: 1 Anauroch, 1 BoED, 1 BoVD, 1 CM, 1 Dragon, 1 Frostburn, 3 PHB, 1 Web

Probably not:
Chain Dispel. This is the high level version of arcane turmoil. It's not to different from a rod of chain spell + Greater Dispel Magic except with a +25 cap instead of +20. That's ok, but really a game changer. Disjunction is a game changer.
Necrotic Empowerment Round/level Dex/Int/Wis+8(enhance), NA+8, Fort+5(Competence), 100 temp hp. Good solid buffs if you persist it, but not quite there for a top-10 spell.
Mind Blank. I'm surprised to find myself downgrading this, but Empyreal Ecstasy + Nondetection + caster level escalation works well instead. With an elevated caster level, these are superior since you can benefit from mind-affecting spells and have protection earlier.
Maze. A cheaper shorter duration higher level version of Amber Sarcophagus. We can afford Amber Sarcophagus, so let's stick with that.
W Superior Invisibility(Spell Compendium). Illusion(Glamer). For minute/level you or touched creature or object up to 100lbs/level invisible in a way that defeats all but true seeing in core. It's a strong effect but Greater Invisibility is already pretty good.
W Ghostform(Spell Compendium). Transmutation. For round/level, you are incorporeal. This is persistable. Incorporeal creates immunity to all mundane things and the ability to interpenetrate objects which is amazing for scouting purposes. While this is a potent effect, we will be able to achieve incorporeality with level 9 spells via Shapechange.
CO Spread of Contentment(Exalted Deeds). Enchantment(Compulsion)[Mind-Affecting]. After a 1 hour casting time at long range for hour/level in a 10'/level radius spread, hostile and unfriendly creatures are indifferent, indifferent are friendly, and friendly are helpful. The lack of save and the spread over a large area of effect make this an incredibly powerful spell, something like a no-save charm in a 400' radius at caster level 40. Note that rendering yourself immune to this spell is easy for PCs so you can freely slaughter otherwise hostile monsters who can not respond by attacking you. If you have the Song of the Dead feat, this even applies to undead. The 1 hour casting time appears to large to use this tactically in most situations making the applicability a bit niche.
C Visions of the Future(Players Handbook II). Divination. For hour/level saves+2(sacred) and AC+2(dodge) discharging as an immediate action for caster level/2 max 25 sacred bonus to saves and dodge bonus to AC until your next turn. The massive save and AC bonus here are the reason for this spell, although it's interesting that you need to reach caster level 50 to max it out. The immediate action to activate the big bonus seems to expensive to use instead of celerity in most circumstances.
Truename Dispel always succeeds like Disjunction, but it requires knowing a targets personal truename which in turn requires HD/2 weeks of research. It's a powerful effect, but the drawback seems difficult enough that it's hard to deploy effectively.
CW Veil of Undeath(Spell Compendium). Necromancy[Evil]. For 10 minutes/level you have undead type immunities and cure causes inflict (and vice-versa) but not the undead type. That's just a boatload of immunities including heavy hitters like ability drain, energy drain, and anything requiring a fortitude save. You could of course Polymorph Any Object into an undead---this spell's virtue is that it applies even when you aren't undead. Nevertheless, it seems the benefits are roughly covered by Death Ward (or Soulfire Armor), Sheltered Vitality (a level 4 spell), and Favor of the Martyr (which you probably want anyways).
Minimus Containment is "Delicate Disk for Greater Planar Binding". It's somewhat more expensive (1800gp vs. 200gp). The advantage of a greater planar binding is that you can get SLAs including at-will SLAs and some solid minions. Nevertheless, it seems like you can cover most of what you might want to do using Delicate Disk directly while benefitting from the higher caster level that a dedicated caster can generate compared to an outsider SLA. It also allows you to generate an army, but if you use a high caster level and push Greater Planar Binding, you can also generate an army---it looks like of a similar size given WBL limits.
Mysterious Redirection halves incoming attacks if saves are failed. It's a good effect, but I'm not sure it's particularly necessary as you can already Gish quite well. Compare for example with Empyreal Ecstasy which prevents half damage (no save) from melee and ranged attacks while also blocking [mind-affecting] effects.

[Biggus]

C Visions of the Future(Players Handbook II). Divination. For hour/level saves+2(sacred) and AC+2(dodge) discharging as an immediate action for caster level/2 max 25 sacred bonus to saves and dodge bonus to AC until your next turn. The massive save and AC bonus here are the reason for this spell, although it's interesting that you need to reach caster level 50 to max it out.

I did not know that there were any spells which topped out at caster levels higher than 40 (apart from those which don't have a cap at all). Do you know of any others?

[Fero]

Some suggestions to think about. Will suggest some to cut once everything percolates in my head for a while.

Evil Weather: Evil Weather is no joke. A massive 1 mile/CL radius AoE that can do damage, mutate everyone, kill all plant life while infesting an area with angry animated plants, or simply stop all divine magic for 24 hrs.

Embrace The Dark Chos/Shun the Dark Chaos: The shuffle between these two spells is a powerful and, outside psionics, fairly rare effect.

Dreaded Form of the Eye Tyrant: If I understand the "new" polymorph subschool correctly, you gain all of the abilities of the assumed form except where otherwise noted. DFotET turns you into a beholder with adjusted Eye Rays. However, the spell is silent as to the, separate, 150' antimagic Cone ability, so you get the full ability. High level combat is largely an exercise in casters trying to stop other casters from casting. As such, a 150' antimagic Cone is fantastic. Moreover, this is a swift action personal range that you can plop on your familiar. A swift action, moveable, and toggleable 150' antimagic come is pretty amazing. Transmute the floor to Lava (or whatever), cast this, and watch as high level enemy casters flounder.

Shadow Evocation, Greater: Can mimic a number of very good spells including Amber Sarcoughagus, Radiant Assault, and Contingency.

Minimus Containment (Dragon 336): adds a new function to Planar Binding that lets you store the called creature in a gem, potentially indefinitely. In essence combines planar Binding and

[RandomPeasant]

wrathful castigation/irresistible dance (no, irresistible dance is not a 6th level spell, for the same reason that greater dispel magic isn't a 3rd level spell) deserve a spot as no-save multi-round disable spells. last judgement is interesting in that it's an AoE spell that's going to be a no-save-just-die effect against a significant number of targets, particular if you Empower it somehow, but it is pretty harshly limited in the range of targets it hits. wrathful castigation is single target, but it's basically two SoL effects in one. greater shadow evocation is interesting, since it's the first one that can replicate contingency, but that's not actually that much of a trick unless you're a Wizard trying to get around a banned school (though what a >100% real contigency does might be worth arguing over). trap the soul is interesting if you can work out some way to have it be a no-save-just-lose effect with any reliability, but it suffers from the pokeball effect only working on outsiders. heart of stone is interesting, as "a year" might as well be "forever" in most campaigns, but the effect itself is not particularly powerful.


OW Greater Planar Binding (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm). Conjuration(Calling). Call and extract services from outsiders or elementals up to 18HD. This includes L9 cleric spells (Planetar), at will {Meteor Swarm, Greater Invisibility, Mindblank, Polymorph} (Paelyiron), and at-will {Mass Hold Monster, Blasphemy, Greater Dispel Magic, Create Undead, Power Word Stun} (Pit Fiend).

Again, you ought to note greater planar ally here as well because they're very similar spells.


S Greater Arcane Fusion(Complete Mage). Universal. Cast any 7- level sorcerer spell known and any 4- level sorcerer spell known. This is an excellent choice for Arcane Thesis+Twin Spell, but even without it you can nova from a cold start via GAF[Limited Wish[Favor of the martyr][Celerity[...]]] where the "..." can be another GAF.

greater arcane fusion does not let you cast "any' spell, just ones with a casting time of a standard action or less. You also pay all costs, so it can't do any of the cool spell emulation tricks. Also it's not really clear what the "sorcerer spell you know" text means. Do you know any Sorcerer spells if you are a Wizard? Is favor of the martyr a Sorcerer spell if you know it as a Sorcerer?


W Mystic Shield(Anauroch). Abjuration. For round/level touched creature unaffected by L6- spells and SLAs although beneficial spells apply while also negating the enhancement bonus and special properties of magic weapons. This is the best protection against spells available in the game and the demagicking of magic weapons elements things like Sense weakness+Surge of Fortune+Vorpal Sword.

This seems worse than spell resistance + CL boosting in most situations. You can reach a SR that hardwalls anyone who isn't boosting their CL even if they're casting 9th level spells, and people who are boosting their CL can prepare options that are effective even through mystic shield (or just remove the shield). death pact is also a much better version of this effect at the same level.


C Visions of the Future(Players Handbook II). Divination. For hour/level saves+2(sacred) and AC+2(dodge) discharging as an immediate action for caster level/2 max 25 sacred bonus to saves and dodge bonus to AC until your next turn. The massive save and AC bonus here are the reason for this spell, although it's interesting that you need to reach caster level 50 to max it out.

Eh. The basic bonus is not very good, and while the discharge is strong you're trading an 8th level spell slot for "I, personally, am pretty hard to kill but not unkillable for this round". Not a great deal when you can get contingency or celerity at a lower level.


DO Unearthly Beauty(Exalted Deeds). Transmutation[Good]. For round/level any humanoid within 60' looking directly at you is blinded fort save negates and any creature within 30' looking directly at you dies will save negates, with the ability to turn these effects on or off as a free action. This is persistable. This is not a death effect so it's a nigh-universal passive save-or-die effect. Friendly fire is the biggest drawback here, but since this isn't precisely a gaze attack (creatures must look "directly at you") that's probably avoidable.

The degree to which people can avoid friendly fire is also the degree to which it just doesn't do anything.


CO Spread of Contentment(Exalted Deeds). Enchantment(Compulsion)[Mind-Affecting]. After a 1 hour casting time at long range for hour/level in a 10'/level radius spread, hostile and unfriendly creatures are indifferent, indifferent are friendly, and friendly are helpful. The lack of save and the spread over a large area of effect make this an incredibly powerful spell, something like a no-save charm in a 400' radius at caster level 40. Note that rendering yourself immune to this spell is easy for PCs so you can freely slaughter otherwise hostile monsters who can not respond by attacking you. If you have the Song of the Dead feat, this even applies to undead.

Long is not actually that long of a range for this effect. It takes an hour to cast. At CL 20, a normal human can walk from the extreme end of the spell's effect to where you're casting it in less than a tenth the cast time. It is hard for me to imagine a situation where that's effective that you weren't going to win anyway (plus, I don't think "indifferent" means "won't defend themselves if you start stabbing them").


Moment of Prescience. This allows for a one-off +25 insight bonus to an attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, saving throw, or AC. It's a very powerful effect, but not unique---Surge of Fortune is better for attack rolls and (typically) ability checks. Divine Insight gives +15 to skill checks, and via Diamond Mind maneuvers to saving throws. The AC bonus could be potent, but more durable forms of AC bonus are often adequate. Visions of the Future seems slightly better in the sense that it provides a rare form of bonus to AC and saves.

The advantage this has is that, unlike surge of fortune, this has hours/level duration by default, so characters that have access to it can generally have one available without really having to think about it or spend a spell slot that day.

[Gruftzwerg]

Some suggestions:

Lightning Ring
Short duration (1 round/ 2 clvl) but can be persisted. 20 lightning resistance; adjacent creatures take 10d6 electricity dmg; shoot 2 lightning blots each turn that deal 5d6 dmg as free action!
If you can persist it, it's free action damage all day long.


Mysterious Redirection
Melee and ranged attackers (against you) need to make a Will save or have to face a 50% that the attack gets redirected to an adjacent creature. If no creature is available, the attack fails. A really good pesistable defensive spell for gish builds who tend to be more at the center of the battle (melee range).

Otto's Irresistible Dance
Unless the foe has Spell Resistance this is a "I win, you suck"-button (no save roll). Can also be chained (if you can reduce the meta costs or have a metamagic rod available).

[Chronos]

Huh, I was waiting for this thread just because I wanted to be the first to mention Unearthly Beauty. A few more points in its favor: One, it bypasses spell resistance, because the spell only directly affects you, and gives you a supernatural ability, and it's that supernatural ability that then kills or blinds enemies. Two, if you happen to be a druid, then you can share it with your animal companion, to make enemies have to save separately versus each of you.

Friendly fire can be an issue, as can the fact that it can be avoided by averting your vision. I still think the sum total is quite favorable, though, because first of all, your allies will know that they need to avert their vision, while enemies probably don't, and second, enemies will be more hindered by having to look away from you than allies will.

[Fero]

I am not convinced that the following belong on this list:


3. Greater Arcane Fusion: This is nice but seems fairly niche. I think it would only help sorcerors. The action economy is nice but the opportunity cost is high. I could see this as a second or third round pick for a Sorc, but don't think it makes it to top 10.

4. Veil of Undeath: This is a nice buff but the duration stops it from being amazing absent significant CL boosters. In addition, most of the buffs this spell provides are (I believe) fairly easy to get from other sources.

5. Mystic Shield: short duration, not persistable protection against (by now) low level enemy spells that takes a full round to cast? What am i missing here? The Magic weapon clause but typically the PCs are the ones wielding cra,y hood magic weapons lest loot inflation.

6. Visions of the Future: The +2 buffs are nice, but fairly minor. The discharge buff is nice. However, the second level spell Deflect can achieve similar AC bonus. Moment of Prescience also provides similar discharge buffs, while allowing additional options. The trade off between this and MoP appears to be trading versatility for minor but long lasting buffs and a slightly longer duration for the discharge effect. Overall, I feel MoP is the stronger choice.

7. Project Multiple Images: This is amazing but my gut says there is something very similar at lower levels. I am not sure what though and will update if I remember.

8. Frostfell: This is a very good multi use save or suck spell. However, I find the casting time problematic.

10. Spread of Contentment: How are you going to get your enemies to enter the AoE? This seems like a great spell for peace talks but I am struggling to see how you make regular use of this while adventuring.

[Akal Saris]

I would boost up Moment of Prescience, personally. The flexibility and convenience of the spell is easy to underestimate.

[eggynack]

Mantle of the fiery spirit is pretty cool. Permanent fire immunity for a pretty small down payment, and then you just have to deal with cold vulnerability. Solid trade off.

[Doctor Despair]

Mantle of the fiery spirit is pretty cool. Permanent fire immunity for a pretty small down payment, and then you just have to deal with cold vulnerability. Solid trade off.

Definitely nice if you have regeneration/fire.

[RandomPeasant]

Lightning Ring

It's 10d6 damage per round, with a save for half, and spell resistance, and it's in two chunks for resistance. It's just not that good.


Greater Arcane Fusion: This is nice but seems fairly niche. I think it would only help sorcerors. The action economy is nice but the opportunity cost is high. I could see this as a second or third round pick for a Sorc, but don't think it makes it to top 10.

I think the reading that this only works if you are a Sorcerer is probably the more dubious interpretation (though punishing Sorcerers who took Arcane Disciple or something does feel a bit unfair). That said, even if you think this is 1005 Sorcerer-only, it still earns a spot on a similar basis to enhance wild shape. It's a really strong effect (even more so than regular arcane fusion) and if it only works for Sorcerers, that makes it one of the few things that would get you to consider being a Sorcerer.


Veil of Undeath: This is a nice buff but the duration stops it from being amazing absent significant CL boosters. In addition, most of the buffs this spell provides are (I believe) fairly easy to get from other sources.

This is a good point. Role compression is nice, but it doesn't provide any immunities you couldn't get somewhere else.


Frostfell: This is a very good multi use save or suck spell. However, I find the casting time problematic.

Worth noting that fixing the casting time issue is a reason to want arcane spellsurge at 7th level.

[Anthrowhale]

Swapped Evil Weather for Spread of Contentment and Moment of Prescience for Visions of the Future.


I did not know that there were any spells which topped out at caster levels higher than 40 (apart from those which don't have a cap at all). Do you know of any others?
Nope.


Evil Weather: Evil Weather is no joke. A massive 1 mile/CL radius AoE that can do damage, mutate everyone, kill all plant life while infesting an area with angry animated plants, or simply stop all divine magic for 24 hrs.

Wow, that's a nasty one with several unique effects. It also apparently provides fuel for Consumptive Field.


Embrace The Dark Chos/Shun the Dark Chaos: The shuffle between these two spells is a powerful and, outside psionics, fairly rare effect.

This seems to expensive to me. I'd rather just concede the effect to psionics who can do it at a much earlier level.


Dreaded Form of the Eye Tyrant: ... A swift action, moveable, and toggleable 150' antimagic come is pretty amazing.

It's a very cool effect, but the downsides of the polymorph subschool are pretty severe as well. Given the drawbacks, I suspect the low tech approach (ring of spell storing + AMF + fighter + grapple) remains fairly competitive.


Shadow Evocation, Greater: Can mimic a number of very good spells including Amber Sarcoughagus, Radiant Assault, and Contingency.

This seems largely duplicative. We already have Amber Sarcophagus explicitly on list. It allows you to cast this for free, but 500gp won't break the bank at this level. Radiant Assault is ok but nothing special. Contingency could be cast in one round, but that's usually unimportant.


Minimus Containment (Dragon 336): adds a new function to Planar Binding that lets you store the called creature in a gem, potentially indefinitely. In essence combines planar Binding and
I'm not seeing how this is particularly helpful---it seems like a plot device? I guess you could setup conditions like "immediately after landing from a throw kill every enemy of mine". Is that what you had in mind?


wrathful castigation/irresistible dance
Amber Sarcophagus is more comprehensive in targeting and generally better in effect.


last judgement

Yeah, the scope of targeting here seems to small


trap the soul

Wow, this one is actually to expensive to use.


heart of stone

DR 5/- is nifty but doesn't seem game changing.


Again, you ought to note greater planar ally here as well because they're very similar spells.

done.


greater arcane fusion does not let you cast "any' spell, just ones with a casting time of a standard action or less. You also pay all costs, so it can't do any of the cool spell emulation tricks. Also it's not really clear what the "sorcerer spell you know" text means. Do you know any Sorcerer spells if you are a Wizard? Is favor of the martyr a Sorcerer spell if you know it as a Sorcerer?

Tweaked, and agreed.


This seems worse than spell resistance + CL boosting in most situations. You can reach a SR that hardwalls anyone who isn't boosting their CL even if they're casting 9th level spells, and people who are boosting their CL can prepare options that are effective even through mystic shield (or just remove the shield). death pact is also a much better version of this effect at the same level.

Noted. I'm not sure how Death Pact is comparable though.


Eh. The basic bonus is not very good, and while the discharge is strong you're trading an 8th level spell slot for "I, personally, am pretty hard to kill but not unkillable for this round". Not a great deal when you can get contingency or celerity at a lower level.

The immediate action trigger is seeming expensive at the moment.


The degree to which people can avoid friendly fire is also the degree to which it just doesn't do anything.

That depends on how much information the enemy has.


Long is not actually that long of a range for this effect. It takes an hour to cast. At CL 20, a normal human can walk from the extreme end of the spell's effect to where you're casting it in less than a tenth the cast time. It is hard for me to imagine a situation where that's effective that you weren't going to win anyway (plus, I don't think "indifferent" means "won't defend themselves if you start stabbing them").

Noted.


The advantage this has is that, unlike surge of fortune, this has hours/level duration by default, so characters that have access to it can generally have one available without really having to think about it or spend a spell slot that day.
The no-action activation is seeming strong.

More later.

[RandomPeasant]

Amber Sarcophagus is more comprehensive in targeting and generally better in effect.

It's not better in effect. amber sarcophagus only gets you one round of attacking with impunity, while irresistible dance gets you a minimum of two and usually more. It is much, much better against anything it effects. Similarly, I wouldn't discount maze, because unlike amber sarcophagus there's no way to break it early.


Noted. I'm not sure how Death Pact is comparable though.

It's a pre-cast defensive effect. Just instead of medium-to-large defensive bonus, it brings you back from the dead.

[Rebel7284]

While I haven't had a chance to use Mystic Shield myself, it looks REAL good on paper, so I am confused by all the hate.

It's useful against many spells that don't allow for SR, and also, not all casters have ways to cheese their caster level very high. In addition, RAW SR stops beneficial spells (unless you take a standard action to lower it) which can be REAL dangerous if your cleric fails the CL check to cast Heal or some such. Some gems that it can stop.
- Greater Dispel Magic: Sure Disjunction is around the corner, but not everyone has the spell slots/spells known for that and GDM is the most common tool for the job at these levels.
- Assay Spell Resistance: just in case the opponent is prepared for high SR opponents directly
- Twinned+Repeating+Maximized Orb of X
- Solid Fog/Acid Fog/Black Tentacles
- Blizzard/Cloudkill
- Many divination spells
- Anticipate Teleportation, Greater
- Hallucinatory Terrain?
- Wall of Force?/Wall of Thorns
- Power Word Disable

Admittedly, "It prevents all spells and spell-like abilities of 6th level or lower from affecting the recipient" gets a little murky with some effects. For example, does the mundane snow from Blizzard affect you? Do the Fogs still obscure your vision? Can you walk through a Wall of Force? Not sure!

It would be truly amazing if it was persistable, but even as is, it stops such a large list of powerful and common effects to make it one of the best defensive buffs available.

The weapons thing is just icing on the cake.

[Fero]

While I haven't had a chance to use Mystic Shield myself, it looks REAL good on paper, so I am confused by all the hate.



I don't see it as hate but rather legitimate confusion as to why people are so attracted to the spell. For me, this boils down to three issues.

First, what is the scope of the protection? As you noted the exact scope is murkey. I initially understood it to be the same as magic immunity. However, SR: No spells bypass magic immunity. If the protection is greater than magic immunity, what is the scope of that immunity? Does it protect you from spells such as Blast of Sand that create and launch mundane substances? Does it protect you if someone launches a rock at you with Telekinesis? Are you immune to illusions and able to see through Invisibility? What about summons and animated dead? I suspect most DMs would treat it as magic immunity and move forward with the game. If the protection is broader than magic immunity it would be nice to have a workable explanation of how it works to give the DM.

Second, how do you actually use it? The duration is short enough that it will be hard to cast this before combat other than in certain ambush and scry/die scenarios. Assuming you cast in combat, the 1 round casting time means you cannot benefit from the spell in the first (most important) round of combat. You also run a significant risk if disruption and cannot (I believe) use immediate action spells to defend yourself while casting. Perhaps most importantly, you are losing your first standard action that you could otherwise use to kill/control enemies. These problems compound if you want to cast this spell on an ally as they have to move adjacent to you before the spell goes off.

Third, even if you cast the spell, it doesn't seem that amazing at these levels. Most enemies are monsters who do not use as many spells as the PCs. Mystic Shield does not protect against claws, breath weapons, death gazes, etc. That said, the spell is legitimately useful against spellcasters. However, by this level, enemy spellcasters will likely use 7th, 8th, and even 9th level spells, limiting the protection offered by MS. Moreover, enemy spellcasters will have sufficient ranks in spellcraft to bypass MS by, for example, targeting the recipient with level 7+ spells or simply targeting other PCs instead.

None of this is to say it is a bad spell. It would actually be very good in some circumstances. Notably, I can see it being very good with Scry/Die tactics to attack a large number of lower level casters (a wizard University or a temple) or to attack creatures with 6th level and under SLAs (many outsiders).

[Chronos]

I'm not convinced that Mystic Shield would stop SR: No spells. Isn't spell immunity considered just to be infinitely-high spell resistance?

[Anthrowhale]

Comments on Minimus Containment and Mysterious Redirection are extra welcome.



Lightning Ring
Short duration (1 round/ 2 clvl) but can be persisted. 20 lightning resistance; adjacent creatures take 10d6 electricity dmg; shoot 2 lightning blots each turn that deal 5d6 dmg as free action!

The lightning resistance seems basically meaningless given that you have access to immunity at this level. The free action damage is ok, but quite low. This reminded me of Holy Star which is available a level earlier and grants 10d6 fire damage as a free action. The defensive ring is ok, but the friendly fire aspect could get messy if the cleric's Energy Immunity is stripped by Disjunction.


Mysterious Redirection
Melee and ranged attackers (against you) need to make a Will save or have to face a 50% that the attack gets redirected to an adjacent creature. If no creature is available, the attack fails. A really good pesistable defensive spell for gish builds who tend to be more at the center of the battle (melee range).

This seems decent if persisted but I'm not sure how important it is as a portfolio add. At this level, persistent bladesong can daze-lock adjacent creatures in melee and Empyreal Ecstasy halves damage from melee and ranged. Is it worthwhile to halve the number of attacks as well?


Otto's Irresistible Dance
Unless the foe has Spell Resistance this is a "I win, you suck"-button (no save roll). Can also be chained (if you can reduce the meta costs or have a metamagic rod available).
I'm still not seeing how this is superior to Amber Sarcophagus. It's cheaper to a degree that matters little, but shorter duration and more limited targeting.


One, it bypasses spell resistance, because the spell only directly affects you, and gives you a supernatural ability, and it's that supernatural ability that then kills or blinds enemies.
I added a note.



3. Greater Arcane Fusion: This is nice but seems fairly niche. I think it would only help sorcerors. The action economy is nice but the opportunity cost is high. I could see this as a second or third round pick for a Sorc, but don't think it makes it to top 10.

I'm not considering class limits in selecting the list. For the purpose of choosing things in the top-10, suppose that every spell is on list and other top-10 spells are known. Yes, I understand this is not true for any given class, but it seems like the sort of thing we need to do to weight one spell against another.

This also doesn't seem that niche to me, as I could easily imagine a sorcerer choosing it first. In essence, I don't see 7th level attack spells as all that much worse than 8th level spells for combat purposes, so why not just squeeze out a bonus 4th level spell? Maybe a Wings of Flurry + Amber Sarcophagus instead of Polymorph Any Object? The former allows you to waste the mooks and put the BBEG on ice while the latter just deals with the BBEG.


4. Veil of Undeath: This is a nice buff but the duration stops it from being amazing absent significant CL boosters. In addition, most of the buffs this spell provides are (I believe) fairly easy to get from other sources.

At this level the duration with a rod of extend spell seems pretty reasonable (say, 6 hours), and it can be persisted if you want 24 hour protection.

You can get the immunities by PAOing into forms with the desired type, but this allows you to combo with other forms, a nontrivial benefit. Do you have alternative avenues of immunity in mind?

I'm not entirely sold on Veil of Undeath though. The reverse polarity of cure/inflict is a real downside.


5. Mystic Shield: short duration, not persistable protection against (by now) low level enemy spells that takes a full round to cast? What am i missing here?

Well, it is persistable with some effort. The easiest approach seems to be Mindworms[Ocular] Mystic Shield, then because you cast an Ocular spell again when discharging your eyes, take advantage of Mindworms[Persistent] (and possibly a greater rod of chain spell that costs a fortune).

The other thing is that it's much better than infinite spell resistance as far as the effect. It's like Globe of Invulnerability, but mobile, personal, and up to 6th level spells, so it shuts off Greater Dispel Magic, Reciprocal Gyre, Orb of <x>, etc... There are ways around this like a L7-9 spell, Heighten Spell, or a Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell. Even in these cases, reducing your opponents to effectively having as many spell slots available as a 3rd level wizard (for example) is a significant effect. Even better, they may waste actions discovering this.


6. Visions of the Future: The +2 buffs are nice, but fairly minor. The discharge buff is nice. However, the second level spell Deflect can achieve similar AC bonus. Moment of Prescience also provides similar discharge buffs, while allowing additional options. The trade off between this and MoP appears to be trading versatility for minor but long lasting buffs and a slightly longer duration for the discharge effect. Overall, I feel MoP is the stronger choice.

Agreed and done.


7. Project Multiple Images: This is amazing but my gut says there is something very similar at lower levels. I am not sure what though and will update if I remember.

That sounds fascinating if you can find it.


8. Frostfell: This is a very good multi use save or suck spell. However, I find the casting time problematic.

That's definitely a point against.


10. Spread of Contentment: How are you going to get your enemies to enter the AoE? This seems like a great spell for peace talks but I am struggling to see how you make regular use of this while adventuring.
You'd really need a trick to cast it fast. There are ways, but I'm convinced and swapped this down.


I would boost up Moment of Prescience, personally. The flexibility and convenience of the spell is easy to underestimate.
Done.


Mantle of the fiery spirit is pretty cool. Permanent fire immunity for a pretty small down payment, and then you just have to deal with cold vulnerability. Solid trade off.
This seems like a good spell, but you can get temporary immunity already and that seems adequate in most cases.



I think the reading that this only works if you are a Sorcerer is probably the more dubious interpretation (though punishing Sorcerers who took Arcane Disciple or something does feel a bit unfair).

"Sorcerer spell you know" is pretty ambiguous between "spell you know as a sorcerer" and "spell you know which is on the sorcerer list". That said, the latter doesn't punish sorcerers with Arcane Disciple because AD explicitly adds to the sorcerer's list.


This is a good point. Role compression is nice, but it doesn't provide any immunities you couldn't get somewhere else.

Where else do you have in mind?


Worth noting that fixing the casting time issue is a reason to want arcane spellsurge at 7th level.
Noted. The Uncanny Forethought avenue also works, but neither are natural on a Druid.

[Fero]

That sounds fascinating if you can find it.


I was thinking of the 7th level Initiate of Cyric spell Triple Mask. It provides a very similar effect to Project Multiple Images, including no Line of Effect clause. Triple Mask does not let you change appearance or cause the images to disappear in the same manner as PMI. However, it has its own functionality including limited abilities to physically manipulate the environment and to program the images.

[RandomPeasant]

First, what is the scope of the protection?

This is the big one. The reasonable way to read it is "infinite SR". Otherwise you have an endless series of questions about what it means for a spell to "affect" you. Does mystic shield let you ignore silent images? Does it mean someone attacking you doesn't get the benefit of their bull's strength? Are you invulnerable to summoned creatures? Called ones?


I'm still not seeing how this is superior to Amber Sarcophagus. It's cheaper to a degree that matters little, but shorter duration and more limited targeting.

Again, it's not shorter duration. It is a shorter duration disable, but a much longer duration "you can attack them and they can't do anything to you". The latter is more important in most circumstances, though amber sacrophagus has some niche in fights with a few opponents where you'd prefer to be able to deal with one enemy at your leisure (or against many if you Chain it). But against a single opponent where both spells work, irresistible dance is much, much better. Which suggests that you should just have both and use the one that is better in the particular situation you are in.


I'm not considering class limits in selecting the list. For the purpose of choosing things in the top-10, suppose that every spell is on list and other top-10 spells are known. Yes, I understand this is not true for any given class, but it seems like the sort of thing we need to do to weight one spell against another.

I don't see how that follows at all. "How good is this spell for the classes that do learn it" is a perfectly fine mode of analysis. That said, the class limitation does matter here inasmuch as greater arcane fusion plausibly does not work with e.g. holy word even if you happen to know both.


Even in these cases, reducing your opponents to effectively having as many spell slots available as a 3rd level wizard (for example) is a significant effect.

Not really. Your typical fight with a high level caster is not going to last long enough for them to run out of top-level slots, and many high level monsters just have at-will SLAs that are high enough level to pierce the mystic shield. A Balor does not care at all about you being immune to 6th level spells, because it would prefer to cast 7th level spells (like blasphemy) or 8th level spells (like power word stun) or 9th level spells (like dominate monster), all of which it can use as much as it wants.


That said, the latter doesn't punish sorcerers with Arcane Disciple because AD explicitly adds to the sorcerer's list.

The class list of a particular Sorcerer is not the same as the Sorcerer class list. Otherwise any Sorcerer could learn any spell from a domain any other Sorcerer had taken Arcane Disciple for.


Where else do you have in mind?

irresistible dance

[Gruftzwerg]

This seems decent if persisted but I'm not sure how important it is as a portfolio add. At this level, persistent bladesong can daze-lock adjacent creatures in melee and Empyreal Ecstasy halves damage from melee and ranged. Is it worthwhile to halve the number of attacks as well?

Imho the most important aspect here that it effectively can stack with other (normal) mischances (since it is a chance to be redirected and not a chance to miss). Add 50% misschance to being hit from any source and you end up with preventing ~75% of all attacks made against you.
From a Gish build's perspective, this is almost a must have imho.



I'm still not seeing how this is superior to Amber Sarcophagus. It's cheaper to a degree that matters little, but shorter duration and more limited targeting.



Amber Sarcophagus costs you 500g each time you cast it. Further, it is not as safe as Irresistible Dance. You can deal damage to get out earlier or just teleport out (if you can). Finally, the enemy is as safe from you as you are from him... Otto's ID on the other hand lets you beat the enemy as you wish. Ah, and not to forget that OID also makes it easier to be hit (-4AC and negates bonus from shield "held") by mundane attacks, touch and ray spelly, and AoE spells (-10 reflex).

AS is inferior to OID imho in all aspects, except maybe for a few niche cases, where you don't intent to kill the target, but somehow safe it from being harmed..

[Anthrowhale]

Further comment on Mysterious Redirection and Minimus Containment are welcome.


It's not better in effect. amber sarcophagus only gets you one round of attacking with impunity, while irresistible dance gets you a minimum of two and usually more. It is much, much better against anything it effects. Similarly, I wouldn't discount maze, because unlike amber sarcophagus there's no way to break it early.

If you want to dispose of a single opponent, you should be able to just daze lock them with Bladesong and then administer sufficient beatings. It seems straightforward?


...Mystic Shield..


First, what is the scope of the protection?


I'm not convinced that Mystic Shield would stop SR: No spells.


...The reasonable way to read it is "infinite SR".
There's a split view here. Is Mystic Shield like Spell Immunity for all L6- spells? Or is it like Globe of Invulnerability for L6- spells?

Spell Immunity says:

The warded creature is immune to the effects of one specified spell for every four levels you have ...The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells.
Which makes it meaningless for SR:No spells.

Minor Globe of Invulnerability says:

An ... magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects ... The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of
invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe.
Which suppresses SR:No spells within the globe.

Mystic Shield says:

This spell creates an invisible aura around the recipient that moves with that individual. It prevents all spells and spell-like abilities ... from affecting the recipient.
All three of these effects start out by offering some form of immunity, but Spell Immunity clarifies that what is meant as just infinite spell resistance. Without that softening, Spell Immunity would be a substantially more powerful effect. MGoI does not have that clause, so it blocks SR:No spells directly. MS also does not have that softening, so it should work like MGoI.

As far as adjudication, I'd start with the effect of Antimagic Ray as a baseline. This means it does nothing at all w.r.t. spells cast on other creatures, but all spell effects directly applied to the creature are suppressed. Secondary effects (i.e. TK violent thrust) have their normal effect. Divinations targeting a creature fail, but divinations giving extra senses to a creature (i.e. see invisibility) work.

Instantaneous conjuration(creation) effects are tricky. AoE effects don't work, but does an Orb of X work? I could go either way.

Another tricky part is the extent of the aura. It probably does not extend to items since they aren't called out like Antimagic Aura.

Overall, Mystic Shield is something like Initiate of Mystra +Antimagic Ray for L6- spells.



Second, how do you actually use it?

Time Stop could apply, but for routine use it would need to be with persistent spell which appears difficult but possible via (for example) Mindworms[Persistent] Mindworms[Ocular] Mystic Shield.


Moreover, enemy spellcasters will have sufficient ranks in spellcraft to bypass MS by, for example, targeting the recipient with level 7+ spells or simply targeting other PCs instead.

Typically, they would have to at least waste an action discovering the effect before they could react to it, and when paired with persistent Skin of the Steel Dragon, the number of L7+ spells which are appropriate may be quite small.


I was thinking of the 7th level Initiate of Cyric spell Triple Mask. It provides a very similar effect to Project Multiple Images, including no Line of Effect clause. Triple Mask does not let you change appearance or cause the images to disappear in the same manner as PMI. However, it has its own functionality including limited abilities to physically manipulate the environment and to program the images.
Oh, that's a good one. Should it be on the L7 list?


Does mystic shield let you ignore silent images?
No---Silent Images don't affect creatures.


Does it mean someone attacking you doesn't get the benefit of their bull's strength?

No, just as for Antimagic Ray.


Are you invulnerable to summoned creatures?

Yes, suppressed spell effects do not apply.


Called ones?

No, it's instantaneous duration.


Not really. Your typical fight with a high level caster is not going to last long enough for them to run out of top-level slots, and many high level monsters just have at-will SLAs that are high enough level to pierce the mystic shield. A Balor does not care at all about you being immune to 6th level spells, because it would prefer to cast 7th level spells (like blasphemy) or 8th level spells (like power word stun) or 9th level spells (like dominate monster), all of which it can use as much as it wants.

All of which are subject to spell resistance. How many offensive L7-L9 spells does a high level caster have that are not subject to spell resistance? Taking a quick look I see a few, but they aren't super-common choices and often have other defenses.


The class list of a particular Sorcerer is not the same as the Sorcerer class list. Otherwise any Sorcerer could learn any spell from a domain any other Sorcerer had taken Arcane Disciple for.

Agreed.


irresistible dance
Again, why can't I just daze lock if I have a single opponent?

Imho the most important aspect here that it effectively can stack with other (normal) mischances (since it is a chance to be redirected and not a chance to miss). Add 50% misschance to being hit from any source and you end up with preventing ~75% of all attacks made against you.
From a Gish build's perspective, this is almost a must have imho.

It's certainly potent. One of my concerns is that Sublime Revelry stacks with Empyreal Ecstasy to give zero damage from melee and ranged attacks.



Further, it is not as safe as Irresistible Dance. You can deal damage to get out earlier or just teleport out (if you can).

No, you can't act at all if you are trapped in amber.

The target is perfectly preserved and held in stasis, unharmed yet unable to take any actions.


Finally, the enemy is as safe from you as you are from him... Otto's ID on the other hand lets you beat the enemy as you wish. Ah, and not to forget that OID also makes it easier to be hit (-4AC and negates bonus from shield "held") by mundane attacks, touch and ray spelly, and AoE spells (-10 reflex).
Sure, but there are other ways to deny actions once you've eliminated all the allies.

[remetagross]

I'm a big fan of Frostfell. The 1-round casting time can be played around relatively easily (such as with Arcane Spellsurge). Plus, the area of effect is really huge, so that it's not that easy for an ennemy to get out of the way with a single round of movement.

Okay, I want to bring out one that has a fairly unique effect. It's Truename Dispel. I know, I know, requiring the truename of whatever it is you're targeting is quite the hurdle. But at ECL 17, fire off a Legend Lore and that's done for. However, it automatically dispels everything you want on the target creature. Even if you face a CL 50 opponent (common way to get immune to dispelling), poof, everything goes away. No save, no SR, and medium range is quite serviceable. The nice thing is that you can choose what to leave in place. So you can target a friend and remove the Bestow Curse, Irresistible Dance, whatever but leave in place the Mind Blank. Or, if you target the bad guy, you can leave in place the Dimensional Anchor you've hit them with.

Mordenkainen's Disjunction is the only other auto-dispelling effect that I know of, but the range is shorter, it's significantly less party-friendly, and it destroys all the loot. Plus, it comes out of a higher spell slot.

[Chronos]

Quoth Anthrowhale:

Maybe a Wings of Flurry + Amber Sarcophagus instead of Polymorph Any Object? The former allows you to waste the mooks and put the BBEG on ice while the latter just deals with the BBEG.
Sure, you can use Polymorph Any Object as a single-target save-or-lose, and doing that is probably inferior to what you're describing. But that's only the barest tip of the iceberg of what PAO is capable of. PAO is one of those spells that leads to DMs ending campaigns before PCs get access to it, because they just don't know how to handle its power level. It definitely deserves to be on this list, and should probably be the first entry on the list.


Quoth remetagross:

Okay, I want to bring out one that has a fairly unique effect. It's Truename Dispel. I know, I know, requiring the truename of whatever it is you're targeting is quite the hurdle. But at ECL 17, fire off a Legend Lore and that's done for.
Learning the truename isn't too hard. The catch is in actually saying the truename. I mean, it's still doable, but Truenamers end up spending basically all of their available build resources just on that. That said, if you can manage to pull it off, it is definitely a very powerful and useful effect.

[Anthrowhale]

... Truename Dispel... But at ECL 17, fire off a Legend Lore and that's done for.



Learning the truename isn't too hard.

I'm not following this. It looks like you need HD/2 skill checks taking a week each where Legend Lore merely gives a +6 bonus to the skill check. What am I missing? Why is it not to hard?



...it automatically dispels everything you want on the target creature...

Yeah, that's a great effect.



Mordenkainen's Disjunction is the only other auto-dispelling effect that I know of, but the range is shorter, it's significantly less party-friendly, and it destroys all the loot. Plus, it comes out of a higher spell slot.
You can solve two of those downsides by casting Disjunction inside of Time Stop...


Sure, you can use Polymorph Any Object as a single-target save-or-lose, and doing that is probably inferior to what you're describing. But that's only the barest tip of the iceberg of what PAO is capable of. PAO is one of those spells that leads to DMs ending campaigns before PCs get access to it, because they just don't know how to handle its power level. It definitely deserves to be on this list, and should probably be the first entry on the list.

I could imagine a Sorcerer taking PAO before GAF. I could also imagine the other way around. The adaptability of GAF isn't quite as explicit as PAO because the set of spell combos available is not prespecified. Nevertheless, it can be quite significant.


The catch is in actually saying the truename.
I'm less worried about any quick skill check, as there are substantial bonuses available to skill checks.

Edit: I've been studying Veil of Undeath. The important elements of the laundry list (=those that can easily deny actions and aren't addressed) are:

stunning: W7 Elemental Body, P4 Favor of the Martyr
death: CO4D5 Death Ward
ability drain: CD4 Sheltered Vitality
energy drain: Death Ward
damage to physical ability scores: CD4 Sheltered Vitality

There are two difficulties here: duration and source. Sheltered Vitality, Death Ward, and Favor of the Martyr are minute/level effects. Their all touch effects, so persisting them is more difficult but possible, at least.

The sourcing difficulty is more difficult. All of those spells are level 4 which is already quite a crowded level---for example we dropped Friendly Fire. Death Ward may be available off Substitute Domain, and the Soulfire armor enchantment is a fine alternative. The other two appear more difficult to deal with. Should Elemental Body be on the L7 list? (It is at least hour/level.)

[remetagross]

My mistake, I wasn't super clear on the rules for discovering one's truename. However, it boils down to a bunch of skill checks, and Moment of Prescience is on the list of useful 8th-level spells as well.

About the Time Stop trick:
1. I don't see which issues it avoids? You cannot affect your target by casting a Disjunction inside a Time Stop, as far as I can tell.
2. Now, instead of using one 9th-level slot, you're using two. Compare with two 8th-level slots for Truename Dispel + Moment of Prescience.

[Chronos]

One good use for Truename Dispelling is to remove debuffs from an ally, while leaving all of their buffs in place, and it's a lot easier to learn your allies' truenames. If nothing else, you tend to keep the same allies for a while.

Another good use is for the recurring Big Bad of the whole campaign, whom you've known about for a while.

But saying the name is still relevant. Sure, things like Moment of Prescience exist, but they're not enough. The truename for a level 20 creature is DC 55. Unless you're maxing out skillpoints just to be able to use one spell, how can you even get to where that's a possible roll?

[remetagross]

At ECL 20, a silvertongue amulet for a +10 to the check is a trfle 10k. Combine that with Moment of Prescience, a single rank into Truespeak, your likely +10 Int modifier and you're looking at +46 to the roll. Nabbing various little bonuses for the remaining +9 is done without even trying: a +1 luck bonus here, a +2 morale bonus there...

[Beni-Kujaku]

At ECL 20, a silvertongue amulet for a +10 to the check is a trfle 10k. Combine that with Moment of Prescience, a single rank into Truespeak, your likely +10 Int modifier and you're looking at +46 to the roll. Nabbing various little bonuses for the remaining +9 is done without even trying: a +1 luck bonus here, a +2 morale bonus there...

Moment of Prescience only works for opposed skill checks, not Truename checks. But Divine Insight does the same. That said, a 2nd level cleric spell, a specific 10k item, and the other bonuses obtained "without trying" are still quite a heavy investment for the ability to dispel effects only on an ally with no CL check. Especially since Disjunction is only one spell level higher.

[Anthrowhale]

Edit: Another that we haven't discussed is Searing Seed (Dragon#300). It's an Ice Assassin style spell, except that the created creature is not under your control and has the half-fiend template making it evil. I'm not sure how to use it effectively. Cast on yourself, you could have circle magic minions. However, they would plausibly be a combination of strong, knowing your secrets, and inimical which is tough to deal with reliably. Cast on something like a dragon or a giant with many HD, they create powerful creatures who again aren't necessarily allies. You could charm and diplomance I guess, but I'm not sure it's enough.

W.r.t. Minimus Containment, we can think of it as "Delicate Disk for Greater Planar Binding". It's somewhat more expensive (1800gp vs. 200gp). The advantage of a greater planar binding is that you can get SLAs including at-will SLAs and some solid minions. Nevertheless, it seems like you can cover most of what you might want to do using Delicate Disk directly while benefitting from the higher caster level that a dedicated caster can generate compared to an outsider SLA. It also allows you to generate an army, but if you use a high caster level and push Greater Planar Binding, you can also generate an army---it looks like of a similar size given WBL limits.

I'm still not convinced about Mysterious Redirection. It's a good effect, but I'm not sure it's particularly necessary as you can already Gish quite well.

I'm still working on trying to figure out how to displace Veil of Undeath.

For the proponents of Maze/Irresistible Dance, I'm still not seeing a strong case given that you can Amber Sarcophagus + Bladesong.


My mistake, I wasn't super clear on the rules for discovering one's truename. However, it boils down to a bunch of skill checks, and Moment of Prescience is on the list of useful 8th-level spells as well.
MoP doesn't work, because it isn't an opposed skill check. (It does work for Greater Planar Binding/Minimus Containment where you have opposed Cha checks).


About the Time Stop trick:
1. I don't see which issues it avoids? You cannot affect your target by casting a Disjunction inside a Time Stop, as far as I can tell.
In Time Stop you can move, cast Disjunction, then retreat, making up for range. Also, if you cast Disjunction inside a Time Stop, the nature of Time Stop does not interrupt Disjunction's ability to target spells, but it does interrupt Disjunction's ability to target items in the possession of a creature.


One good use for Truename Dispelling is to remove debuffs from an ally, while leaving all of their buffs in place, and it's a lot easier to learn your allies' truenames. If nothing else, you tend to keep the same allies for a while.

Another good use is for the recurring Big Bad of the whole campaign, whom you've known about for a while.

This seem plausibly viable. Truename Dispelling doesn't seem to replace Disjunction, because it's easy to imagine that you need the big D "now", not after months of research.

But saying the name is still relevant. Sure, things like Moment of Prescience exist, but they're not enough. The truename for a level 20 creature is DC 55. Unless you're maxing out skillpoints just to be able to use one spell, how can you even get to where that's a possible roll?
If you escalate to caster level 40, you can pick up +20 (luck) from Improvisation and +24(Competence) from Loresong. Then you can use a swift action with Surge of Fortune to roll a 20.

[Chronos]

Sure, there exist spells that can boost a True Speech check high enough. But you need multiple such spells. And that means multiple actions (or pseudo-actions or whatever, using any of the action-economy tricks we've already listed) that could be used for other spells instead. It's a steep opportunity cost. A truespeech component might be worthwhile once we get to 9th level spells, for Unname, for those times when you absolutely, positively want to completely get rid of something with no coming back, but short of that, it's a tough sell.

On Otto's Irresistable Dance, I think that it's quite relevant that it still allows SR, and it's mind-effecting. It certainly has a niche, but I think that the intersection of "no SR", "subject to mind-affecting", and "is worth using an 8th-level spell to shut down a single enemy" is small enough to not be worth a spot on this list.

[redking]

Edit: Another that we haven't discussed is Searing Seed (Dragon#300). It's an Ice Assassin style spell, except that the created creature is not under your control and has the half-fiend template making it evil. I'm not sure how to use it effectively. Cast on yourself, you could have circle magic minions. However, they would plausibly be a combination of strong, knowing your secrets, and inimical which is tough to deal with reliably. Cast on something like a dragon or a giant with many HD, they create powerful creatures who again aren't necessarily allies. You could charm and diplomance I guess, but I'm not sure it's enough.


The 'Malconvoker' class has a feature called "Unrestricted Conjuration." This feature permits the caster to cast conjuration spells without being bound by alignment restrictions. As a result, a spell like 'Searing Seed', which is a conjuration spell, can be cast by good-aligned characters without any alignment repercussions. A Chaotic Good malconvoker can utilize this spell without concerns about alignment shifts. Additionally, if a caster possesses the ability of 'planar turning' rebuking, they have the capability to command the half-fiends that result from the spell, making them into allies or subordinates.

[Anthrowhale]

The 'Malconvoker' class has a feature called "Unrestricted Conjuration." This feature permits the caster to cast conjuration spells without being bound by alignment restrictions. As a result, a spell like 'Searing Seed', which is a conjuration spell, can be cast by good-aligned characters without any alignment repercussions. A Chaotic Good malconvoker can utilize this spell without concerns about alignment shifts.

That broadens applicability somewhat, thanks.

Additionally, if a caster possesses the ability of 'planar turning' rebuking, they have the capability to command the half-fiends that result from the spell, making them into allies or subordinates.
Turning effects are supernatural, and hence suppressed within an AMF. This is particularly relevant if you are trying to make clones of yourself that are smarter than yourself, since they are able to cast AMF. For something that won't stab you in the back at this kind of power level you want a nonmagical state of loyalty. This appears possible in a couple ways:

Diplomance them.
Operate a Redeemery (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?410846-The-Redeemery-Saving-Souls-for-Good-and-Profit-Work-in-Progress).


A few questions though:

What happens if you cast Searing Seed on a creature ineligible for the Half-Fiend template? (Int 3 or less, or with a good alignment?)
What happens if you cast Searing Seed on a Half-Fiend?

[Chronos]

We already have multiple spells on these lists that are Just Plain Evil, no?

[Fero]

We already have multiple spells on these lists that are Just Plain Evil, no?

Evil offers easy power. . . for those foolish enough to take it.

[Anthrowhale]

I decided to go for Searing Seed, swapping down Veil of Undeath since there are several lower level effects which can combine to provide the same effects.

Mysterious Redirection doesn't seem strong enough in comparison to Empyreal Ecstasy, which provides both immunity to mind-affecting and half damage from melee & ranged attacks.

Minimus Containment seems like a fine spell, but it's notably expensive in comparison to Delicate Disk and you Greater Planar Binding allows you to create an army as well.

I'm still not seeing a significant advantage to Maze/Irresistible Dance over Amber Sarcophagus.