Fitting a Character in a Large Party

[FallingPetunias]

Hey everyone, long time lurker, first time posting.

Basically, I'm looking for advice on what class to replace my old character with. My friends and I are in a campaign running until around level 12/13, and my bard has come to the conclusion that she should quit while she's ahead. Now, our party is quite large - 7 players, in fact - and Im having a hard time not replacing a bard with a bard. We're currently level 7, and this is the current lineup:

A Rune Knight Fighter and a Monster Slayer Ranger as our big melee hitters; a Drakewarden Ranger and an Armorer Artificer as our range strikers with minor utility; a Grave Cleric mostly focussed in support, utility and emergency healing; and a Wildfire Druid usually acting as blaster.

I'm think it's be best to lean battlefield control and pick up a little bit of Face abilities, but can't seem to decide on anything. Anyone have a fun build they think could fit this niche?

Stats I rolled were 8 11 13 14 15 15 and I have access to all WotC published 5e content.

[Unoriginal]

Hey everyone, long time lurker, first time posting.

Basically, I'm looking for advice on what class to replace my old character with. My friends and I are in a campaign running until around level 12/13, and my bard has come to the conclusion that she should quit while she's ahead. Now, our party is quite large - 7 players, in fact - and Im having a hard time not replacing a bard with a bard. We're currently level 7, and this is the current lineup:

A Rune Knight Fighter and a Monster Slayer Ranger as our big melee hitters; a Drakewarden Ranger and an Armorer Artificer as our range strikers with minor utility; a Grave Cleric mostly focussed in support, utility and emergency healing; and a Wildfire Druid usually acting as blaster.

I'm think it's be best to lean battlefield control and pick up a little bit of Face abilities, but can't seem to decide on anything. Anyone have a fun build they think could fit this niche?

Stats I rolled were 8 11 13 14 15 15 and I have access to all WotC published 5e content.

I have two suggestions:

1) A Mercy Monk. It'll fit in the group and you have enough room to do Face stuff too.

2) This is a build I came up a while ago, I never got to play it but it works on paper.

The Dread Commander

- Pick standard Human to have 9 12 14 15 16 16 as your initial stats.

- Have the stats go STR 14 DEX 16 CON 12 INT 9 WIS 16 CHA 15

- Take 7 levels of Oath of Conquest Paladin.

- Take 6 levels of Long Death Monk.

Aura of Conquest reduces the speed of creatures frightened by you to 0, so long as they are within 10ft of you, and it inflicts half of your Paladin levels in damage to them if they start their turns there.

Hour of Reaping lets you, as an action, frighten every creature within 30ft of you that fails their WIS save. It is an at-will power.

So not only you can impose disadvantage on all ability checks and attack rolls within 30ft (and make the creatures unable to move closer to you), within 10ft you make it outright impossible for them to move outside of teleportation and you make them die from fear, little by little.

If you put your two ASIs into WIS, that means the people you fight have to pass a DC 17 WIS save, which is not that easy.

Pros:

- The combo mentioned above

- 2 attacks + a bonus action attack

- Increased mobility from Monk levels

- Guided Strike and Focused Aim to make landing a hit more likely if needed

- Divine Smite and Stunning Strike

- Hard to kill so long as you have ki points and Lays of Hands left

- Decent CHA for Face role and Conquest Paladin spells

- Paladin weapon proficiency + Dedicated weapon can be used together for an unconventional but fun weapon setup (ex: whip).

Cons:

- Not a very high to-hit bonus (but that can be corrected by taking another lvl of Paladin at 14 and putting the ASI in DEX)
- Not very high AC (but that can be corrected by putting ASI in DEX too)

- Combo doesn't work on enemies immune to frightened (but you still have the rest of the toolset to use)

- Allies aren't immune to your Hour of Reaping

[J-H]

The party has no arcane full caster, so there's nobody with Fireball, Magic Missile, etc. You could go Wizard/Sorc/Warlock and focus on spells that go well with what the druid and cleric are doing. Sorc Twinning Haste would be really good for your heavy hitters.

What kind of enemies are you usually facing?

[Bobthewizard]

I agree that battlefield control is probably the best thing you could add to that party. I'd go wizard to get all the rituals too, but one of the Tasha's sorcerers (aberrant mind or clockwork soul) would work too if you want to focus on charisma.

For concentration control spells, I like Tasha's laughter, web, hypnotic pattern, wall of force, and a Tasha's summoning spell.

For non-concentration control, I like command (from fey-touched), Tasha's mind whip, Raulothims psychic lance, mass suggestion, forcecage

Then for defense, there is shield, silvery barbs, absorb elements, and counterspell.

For movement, misty step, invisibility, fly, dimension door, and either teleport or plane shift depending on the campaign.

If you go sorcerer, twinned haste is worthwhile. Without twinned, I don't like using my concentration for a single target buff though.

[FallingPetunias]

The party has no arcane full caster, so there's nobody with Fireball, Magic Missile, etc. You could go Wizard/Sorc/Warlock and focus on spells that go well with what the druid and cleric are doing. Sorc Twinning Haste would be really good for your heavy hitters.

What kind of enemies are you usually facing?

Huh, I hadn't realized Wildfire Druid doesn't get fireball.

Mostly it seems to be intelligent humanoids. We went through a necromancer's tower, a couple dragons, and then fire giants. The DM tends to make enemies with character levels, which is fun to fight with our large party.

I played a Sorlock our last campaign, so may just be time to try out Wizard.

[FallingPetunias]

I have two suggestions:

1) A Mercy Monk. It'll fit in the group and you have enough room to do Face stuff too.

2) This is a build I came up a while ago, I never got to play it but it works on paper.

The Dread Commander

- Pick standard Human to have 9 12 14 15 16 16 as your initial stats.

- Have the stats go STR 14 DEX 16 CON 12 INT 9 WIS 16 CHA 15

- Take 7 levels of Oath of Conquest Paladin.

- Take 6 levels of Long Death Monk.

Aura of Conquest reduces the speed of creatures frightened by you to 0, so long as they are within 10ft of you, and it inflicts half of your Paladin levels in damage to them if they start their turns there.

Hour of Reaping lets you, as an action, frighten every creature within 30ft of you that fails their WIS save. It is an at-will power.

So not only you can impose disadvantage on all ability checks and attack rolls within 30ft (and make the creatures unable to move closer to you), within 10ft you make it outright impossible for them to move outside of teleportation and you make them die from fear, little by little.

If you put your two ASIs into WIS, that means the people you fight have to pass a DC 17 WIS save, which is not that easy.

Pros:

- The combo mentioned above

- 2 attacks + a bonus action attack

- Increased mobility from Monk levels

- Guided Strike and Focused Aim to make landing a hit more likely if needed

- Divine Smite and Stunning Strike

- Hard to kill so long as you have ki points and Lays of Hands left

- Decent CHA for Face role and Conquest Paladin spells

- Paladin weapon proficiency + Dedicated weapon can be used together for an unconventional but fun weapon setup (ex: whip).

Cons:

- Not a very high to-hit bonus (but that can be corrected by taking another lvl of Paladin at 14 and putting the ASI in DEX)
- Not very high AC (but that can be corrected by putting ASI in DEX too)

- Combo doesn't work on enemies immune to frightened (but you still have the rest of the toolset to use)

- Allies aren't immune to your Hour of Reaping

Oh now this is neat. I did something similar in a one shot with an Undead Warlock/Conquest Paladin, but this seems more mobile and AoE focussed.

[FallingPetunias]

I agree that battlefield control is probably the best thing you could add to that party. I'd go wizard to get all the rituals too, but one of the Tasha's sorcerers (aberrant mind or clockwork soul) would work too if you want to focus on charisma.

For concentration control spells, I like Tasha's laughter, web, hypnotic pattern, wall of force, and a Tasha's summoning spell.

For non-concentration control, I like command (from fey-touched), Tasha's mind whip, Raulothims psychic lance, mass suggestion, forcecage

Then for defense, there is shield, silvery barbs, absorb elements, and counterspell.

For movement, misty step, invisibility, fly, dimension door, and either teleport or plane shift depending on the campaign.

If you go sorcerer, twinned haste is worthwhile. Without twinned, I don't like using my concentration for a single target buff though.

Wizard may be the route I should go here. My sorlock in the last campaign basically always twinned haste and then Eldritch blasted his way around, which was a good combo. Only ended up retiring that character for story reasons.

My squishy casters tend to experience multiple near-death experiences in a row and decide they should stop adventuring.

[Unoriginal]

Wizard may be the route I should go here. My sorlock in the last campaign basically always twinned haste and then Eldritch blasted his way around, which was a good combo. Only ended up retiring that character for story reasons.

My squishy casters tend to experience multiple near-death experiences in a row and decide they should stop adventuring.

If you go for my suggestion, I would add the suggestion to play the character kind of like an 80's saturday morning cartoon villain à la Skeletor.

That is to say, bombastic, hammy, too driven to quit no matter the setbacks or how many time they get beaten to a pulp, and with enough laughable traits that people forget they got messed up powers until it's time for action.

[FallingPetunias]

If you go for my suggestion, I would add the suggestion to play the character kind of like an 80's saturday morning cartoon villain à la Skeletor.

That is to say, bombastic, hammy, too driven to quit no matter the setbacks or how many time they get beaten to a pulp, and with enough laughable traits that people forget they got messed up powers until it's time for action. I like it. Just after freezing everyone: "MEHA! Now you can't run away from my poetry, you Boobs! Feast your ears upon the death of your ignorance!"

"I will conquer you! Nothing can stop me! Not even you, wall!"

[Greywander]

It's worth noting that paladins get a fear immunity aura at 10th level, although it only extends to 10 feet until 18th level. Leonin and fallen aasimar have racial fear AoEs, and dragonborn can get one via the Dragon Fear feat (go Fizban dragonborn for more uses and better action economy). Dip one level into Undead warlock and you get a transformation that inflicts fear with your attacks. Long Death monk is good, it's just a steep cost to pay, and you never get full mileage out of it because that many levels in monk locks you out of the 30 foot auras.

[Stattick]

I'd also suggest a wizard. Since you were complaining that your prior arcane casters have been fragile, maybe go with a Hobgoblin Iron Wizard (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23837856&postcount=45).

[JonBeowulf]

I'd also suggest a wizard. Since you were complaining that your prior arcane casters have been fragile, maybe go with a Hobgoblin Iron Wizard (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23837856&postcount=45).

OMG I love that! A weakened variant of it is gonna drop in my world as a VBBEG. Mad props, LudicSavant!

Sorry, players, I'm not sorry.

[FallingPetunias]

I'd also suggest a wizard. Since you were complaining that your prior arcane casters have been fragile, maybe go with...

Ooooo-shiny! I was actually debating now between a chronurgy wizard and a fathomless warlock (we killed her a couple sessions ago but kept her body for resurrection, so asked the DM if I could make her a Reborn. Fun RP stuff given her death was from a misunderstanding).

Basically, Jon Theodore Wizard being a silly divorcee for messing with the timestream joins the party to prove he's awesome and win his husband back. Half-elf Artificer 1/Chronurgy Wizard 6 to 11. Between Chronal Shift, Lucky, and Silvery Barbs, he's rerolling a lot of things. Counterspell on deck for saving our asses. Probably end up with 18 Int as a cap to put feats into things like Resilient and Lucky.

And Adrian Harper, newly appointed tour guide for her patron who clawed her soul from the depths. Plenty of awkwardness given the party shot her arm off when they killed her, but she doesn't really remember. Now has a spectral tentacle arm and fuzzy memories. Motivations are her Patron using her body as a tour bus to learn more of the surface and to send adventuring money back to support her mom. Half-Elf/Reborn Tempest Cleric 2/Fathomless Warlock 5-10. Focusses on area denial with Hunger of Hadar, shoving with Eldritch blast, and combat support/debuff with her summoned tentacle. Will max damage a lightning bolt when she gets a good angle or save her second spell for Counterspelling. Level 1 cleric spells for utility and emergency healing. Charisma would get to 20 as I plan to take Fey & Shadow Touched for more spells options then fill in that last point with another half-feat.

My bard and our artificer just bought the materials for 2 sets of mithril plate, so with my bard leaving, Adrian could either take that second set and a shield for AC 20 or Jon could get half-plate fashioned for AC 19 with a shield. Both can cast ritual spells, so Adrian has the leg up being able to cast any - but we've got a cleric and druid anyway, so not much missing out with Jon.

[RogueJK]

The Iron Wizard concept in general is great, but just note that specific build by LudicSavant is fairly old and predates a number of the newer releases. Notably, the new version of Hobgoblin doesn't get any racial weapon/armor proficiency. Gith similarly lost theirs. Mountain Dwarves are currently the only ones who get racial weapon/armor proficiency (and that's almost certainly going away next year).

However, Artificer is now a core class, and starting with a 1 level Artificer dip gets an Iron Wizard Abjurer everything they want: Medium armor and shield proficiency, CON saving throw proficiency, some additional INT-based cantrips, and access to a few non-Wizard 1st level INT-based spells. And it doesn't require any abnormal stat arrangements to meet the minimums for multiclassing, plus with the Artificer's unique half-caster spell slot calculations you won't be behind any in your higher level spell slots, since Artificer 1 counts as a full spellcasting level for spell slots.

So the good news it that you're no longer locked into just one or two races for an Armored Iron Wizard build, you can be armored from Level 1 without having to wait for your Level 4 ASI, and you don't need to spend any feats on Moderately Armored or Resilient: CON. But the (slightly) bad news is that you'll be a level behind in spells known due to the Artificer dip. That's a price well worth paying for all the benefits.


Cleric 1/Abjurer X is another viable Armored Wizard build, giving up CON save proficiency and additional INT spellcasting, and requiring at least a 13 WIS, in exchange for some non-WIS-dependant support spells like Bless, Guidance, and Healing Word, plus a potentially useful 1st level subclass ability. You similarly will be a level behind in spells known but not spell slots. Though in nearly every case, Artificer is the better route. (If you want Bless, you can grab it with Fey Touched)


Or if you're dead-set on building the Iron Wizard as listed in that old build without multiclassing, you can do a close approximation with VHuman/CLineage, taking Lightly Armored at Level 1 and Moderately Armored at Level 4. You'll get Medium Armor and Shield proficiency online by Level 4, the same level where the old Hobgoblin Iron Wizard would have.


Therefore, if you're wanting to do a modern Iron Wizard starting at Level 7 with those rolled stats, I'd do something like this:

Deep Gnome Artificer 1/Abjurer 6
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 15+1
INT 15+2
WIS 13
CHA 11
ASIs: 18 INT/12 CHA at Wizard 4

You can be the party's AoE/control/utility caster and Counterspeller, without worry of being squishy. You've got a 19 AC with Half Plate + Shield, a good amount of HP plus your additional HP buffer, and a very strong CON save for maintaining Concentration, as well as solid mental saves due to a high INT and INT save proficiency, positive WIS and CHA modifiers, and Advantage on mental saves against spells. You also get a daily racial casting of Nondetection, a 3rd level Abjuration spell, which allows you a free daily recharge of 6 HP to your depleted Arcane Ward without expending a spell slot.

[FallingPetunias]

The Iron Wizard concept in general is great, but just note that specific build by LudicSavant is fairly old and predates a number of the newer releases. Notably, the new version of Hobgoblin doesn't get any racial weapon/armor proficiency. Gith similarly lost theirs. Mountain Dwarves are currently the only ones who get racial weapon/armor proficiency (and that's almost certainly going away next year).

However, Artificer is now a core class, and starting with a 1 level Artificer dip gets an Iron Wizard Abjurer everything they want: Medium armor and shield proficiency, CON saving throw proficiency, some additional INT-based cantrips, and access to a few non-Wizard 1st level INT-based spells. And it doesn't require any abnormal stat arrangements to meet the minimums for multiclassing, plus with the Artificer's unique half-caster spell slot calculations you won't be behind any in your higher level spell slots, since Artificer 1 counts as a full spellcasting level for spell slots.

So the good news it that you're no longer locked into just one or two races for an Armored Iron Wizard build, you can be armored from Level 1 without having to wait for your Level 4 ASI, and you don't need to spend any feats on Moderately Armored or Resilient: CON. But the (slightly) bad news is that you'll be a level behind in spells known due to the Artificer dip. That's a price well worth paying for all the benefits.


Cleric 1/Abjurer X is another viable Armored Wizard build, giving up CON save proficiency and additional INT spellcasting, and requiring at least a 13 WIS, in exchange for some non-WIS-dependant support spells like Bless, Guidance, and Healing Word, plus a potentially useful 1st level subclass ability. You similarly will be a level behind in spells known but not spell slots. Though in nearly every case, Artificer is the better route. (If you want Bless, you can grab it with Fey Touched)


Or if you're dead-set on building the Iron Wizard as listed in that old build without multiclassing, you can do a close approximation with VHuman/CLineage, taking Lightly Armored at Level 1 and Moderately Armored at Level 4. You'll get Medium Armor and Shield proficiency online by Level 4, the same level where the old Hobgoblin Iron Wizard would have.


Therefore, if you're wanting to do a modern Iron Wizard starting at Level 7 with those rolled stats, I'd do something like this:

Deep Gnome Artificer 1/Abjurer 6
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 15+1
INT 15+2
WIS 13
CHA 11
ASIs: 18 INT/12 CHA at Wizard 4

You can be the party's AoE/control/utility caster and Counterspeller, without worry of being squishy. You've got a 19 AC with Half Plate + Shield, a good amount of HP plus your additional HP buffer, and a very strong CON save for maintaining Concentration, as well as solid mental saves due to a high INT and INT save proficiency, positive WIS and CHA modifiers, and Advantage on mental saves against spells. You also get a daily racial casting of Nondetection, a 3rd level Abjuration spell, which allows you a free daily recharge of 6 HP to your depleted Arcane Ward without expending a spell slot. yeah, basically the same wavelength on the wizard build there - I just hadn't considered abjuratjon since I originally leaned divination or chronurgy on the build. I could use Volo's Guide version of the hobgoblin if I wanted to, not sure what updated version you mean that loses the light armor and 2 martial weapons.

I'm still undecided on wizard vs warlock as both cover utility and control well with the wizard having more spells and the warlock having more blasting and being a better face for the party (we have a lot of negative charisma)

[RogueJK]

not sure what updated version you mean that loses the light armor and 2 martial weapons.

Mordenkainen's Monsters of the Multiverse came out last year, and it introduced newly updated versions of the races that original debuted in Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes previously. These older "legacy" races from VGtM/MToF have been superseded/replaced in official 5E, though it's up to your DM if they want to continue to allow that older race content in their own games.

(The version of the Deep Gnome I used in that build is likewise the MoTM version, not the older legacy version from MToF, which didn't have any innate racial spellcasting.)

[FallingPetunias]

Ah, I see that now, and yeah, our DM pretty much allows any WotC books and a few extra things like Wildemount and Humblewood.

[JonBeowulf]

Mordenkainen's Monsters of the Multiverse came out last year, and it introduced newly updated versions of the races that original debuted in Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes previously. These older "legacy" races from VGtM/MToF have been superseded/replaced in official 5E, though it's up to your DM if they want to continue to allow that older race content in their own games.

(The version of the Deep Gnome I used in that build is likewise the MoTM version, not the older legacy version from MToF, which didn't have any innate racial spellcasting.)

Not a problem at my table... I ignore Tasha's and everything that follows.