Desert of Deslolation: A question for the probably-grognard DM

[Aotrs Commander]

One for primarily the grognards, I think, plus maybe a few like myself from later editions converting...!

I am preparing to run a campaign (in my 3.5/PF1 hybrid, thought that's laregly irrelevant here) which will include Deserts of Desolation, the AD&D module pack. (something I ghave wanted to do since... Basically I started DMing.)

I am just about starting the werite-upand I came to the bit on translating inscriptions. There are a number of phrases, for which the intention is for the PCs (or at least the players) to translate.

This was added for Deserts of Desolation (as checking my hardcopy of Pharoah, it wasn't there).

I think the swiftest thing for me to do is directly quote DoD itself:


In many of this adventure’s encounter areas, there are phrases, sentences or verses written in “an ancient alphabet.” These inscriptions and scrolls give the players hints about expected actions or solutions to puzzles. The writings are translated in text indented within the DM Judging Text. The original inscriptions are provided on the reverse of the DMs fold-up map.

Inscriptions
On the back of the DM map of the desert are listed all of the ancient inscriptions from the adventure, except for the Tome of Martek. You should photocopy these inscriptions and then cut them out to give to players when the
inscription is found.

Judging Ancient Inscriptions
The inscriptions in the ancient alphabet are reproduced on the back of the DMs fold-up map. It may be a pleasant experience for your players to figure these out. The inscriptions are written in English, but the symbols stand for
sounds, not actual letters. Most of the symbols bear a close relationship to the English alphabet, with related vowel sounds getting related symbols. Once the players get the hang of it, they will have virtually a 100% chance, with work, to read any inscription.

Still, this task may prove to be boring to some players. In this case, use a straight 30% chance for the PCs to read any inscription in the ancient alphabet. Give every PC a chance. If the inscription cannot be read after the dice
rolls have been completed, it cannot be. As an alternative, you could give each PC a base 30% chance, with that chance improving by 1% for each inscription translated correctly, and with the chance lessening by 1% for each
one missed. In either case, it is recommended that, if the players choose to roll dice instead of solve the puzzle, the dice roll be accepted as final.

The "ancient alphabet" is provided as a key, so the players are intended to go through and basicially transliterate the inscriptions into Engish.

Okay, sounds reasonable on the surface.

However, there are a couple of issues.

One - which may be big one - the people who scanned in the stuff to make the PDFs at TSR gave absolutely NO FRACKS at all. I cannot 100% guaruntee that all the lines are even on the pages. (Given my experiences with Night Below, where I had to beg someone with a hardcopy to scan all the maps for me; the fact there are pencil marks on the scan in at least one place, added to the somewhat shoddy production values of Desert of Desolation ITSELF as source on top. ) Or the quality of the scane might be a bit dubious, especially as like, there is one member of my gaming group under 40! So it might be a non-starter anyway.

Two - I am concerned that there might be just be too much of it to do. Here's a sample (one of the two pages, the second including the key) in my PDF, which I again cannot be 100% sure is everything...) of what I'm talking about.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Primary-Gallery/i-rp4VwF2/0/580e0e03/XL/Desert%20of%20Desolation%20Inscriptions%2002-XL.png

Each one of those paragraphs is a seperate handout, effectively.

It seems like it would be taking a LOT of time to do. (Especially given we have, realistically, two hour's playtime per week.) Even with eight players potentially doing it.

And subsidiary issue is that I can't find (even after doing a search of the PDF) anywhere what suggests HOW the PCs got the key or that they know how to translate it. This is not an insurmountable issue in game - I'm playing on Golarion, so it could be rationalised away as being an obsure dialect of Osiriani (it's a bit late for Ancient Osiriani "only" being set a thousand years prior). But it is nevertheless maybe an indication this is more a plkaywer challenge than a character one.


Obviosuly, the whole thing could be done by either a), having the Ancient Alphabet just be something the PCs can read straight up or b) substituted by Lingustics checks/spells etc.

(I realised the answer might be to split the difference a bit and only do it the first time, but...)




However, it has enough merit to the idea I thought it might be worth coming along to ask if there were any previous GMs/players of Deserts of Desolation who had used this particular bit of the module and whether you thought it was more trouble than it's worth.

So has anyone got any expereince in this particular thing, either as DM or player? Or any prior xperience with similar sort of puzzle in unrelated stuff?

[Telok]

I'd be seriously tempted to run it straight out of the book, missing & blurry lines and all. With using the 3.x/pf rule set there's a good chance someone will whip out a spell and make it moot anyways.

If you're concerned they can't even manage that then check character sheets and set a base dc that the best bonus in the party will hit about 33%. Give a +1 per successful previous deciphered inscription. Then (this is the important bit) give them not just the cut out paper copy of the inscription, but also the cut out paper copy of the solution to each one they've solved. If stuff is basically a simple straight 1:1 replacement they'll have a virtually complete code breaker after their second successful roll. Someone can take the paper bits home and solve any previously unsolved inscriptions outside of play time.

[Eldan]

Do NOT have someone transliterate text at the table. I can't imagine how that is going to go well.

Especially because it feels to me that this is a one person job. So, you will get one person at the table who maybe likes cryptography sitting down and doing the translation and then... everyone else waits? Even with the key, I can see this taking 10-15 minutes per paragraph, just because you're giong to have to look up every single letter.

If it's vital text, have someone roll a couple linguistics checks. If it's "good to have" information, hand it to the player who seems most excited at the idea and tell him to take it home as a nice bonus puzzle before the next session.

[Aotrs Commander]

I can absolutely guarentee that no-one is going away to do it out of session. Most of the group turns up, plays and doesn't think about anything until they come next week (there's basically only one player who helps with rules stuff, and one other who sometimes does some research - his current character uses stuff from Treantmonk's Guide to Playing god - and a couple chipped in with the physical work of re-printing the maneouvre cards, but that's more or less it).

(It's hard enough getting them to think about the characters for this next party1, as I was unreasonable enough to say "we've got 62 base classes now, next party bans all the usual suspects everybody always picks (i.e. core - and ToB, surprisingly enough) so we actually use some of the others..."

I spent a goodly while preparing a player's guide to the campaign; I'm not terribly sure sure how many of the will acually read it other than looking at the list of character classes and maybe races, since I think the player who maybe decided his race picked aasimar, I think, which wasn't one of the ones imbedded in said player's guide. On the one hand, I can run pretty much whatever the hell I like, but at others, it is a bit... Frustrating.)




Do NOT have someone transliterate text at the table. I can't imagine how that is going to go well.

Especially because it feels to me that this is a one person job. So, you will get one person at the table who maybe likes cryptography sitting down and doing the translation and then... everyone else waits? Even with the key, I can see this taking 10-15 minutes per paragraph, just because you're giong to have to look up every single letter.

If it's vital text, have someone roll a couple linguistics checks. If it's "good to have" information, hand it to the player who seems most excited at the idea and tell him to take it home as a nice bonus puzzle before the next session.

That's sort of confirms what I was thinking - it SOUNDS like a neat idea, and maybe as a one-off puzzle - that's relatively short, it might be alright, but I briefly looked at it myself and went "hrrrm..."



I think from the responses so far from here, Spacebattles and Reddit, the writing is on the wall that it was an idea that is really just not very practical, and I'll go back to giving them a token DC. Or maybe a slightly less token DC, and a token DC if anyone actually takes those two Osirion-specific lore feats that I basically said (more than once) only exist in my feats list because of this campaign specifically, as they will never come up again. (Literally because this mega-campaign will use every single Osirion AP and module that Paizo have released, bar the two which I couldn't really fir in...)



Actually, that is a better an better idea the more I think about it, now I'm going to go the check route, since it gives a very concrete reason for taking those feats. (Aside from the fact you could get up to a +8 bonus to Knowledge or Lingustics checks that pertain to Osirion... In a campaign set entirely within Osirion and dealing exclusively with Osirion-related guff...!)


Thanks for the help, folk.



1Thus setting the DC based on their actual character is not a possiblity...

[Pauly]

Do you want this to be a player challenge or a character challenge?

The answer will be different for each case.

For a player challenge the sweet spot is hard to find of challenging enough to be entertaining but not so challenging as to become a chore. Something lime a simple ceasar cypher is an example of something that’s not challenging enough to be fun yet mundane enough to be a chore to do many times.
What I tend to do for ancient texts is to use something like katakana (a Japanese ‘alphabet’) that gives a roughly phonetic rendering of English. What this does is even after the players have translated the message they then still have to work out what it means because the spelling and apparent pronunciation don’t map properly onto English. When the players have mastered the code I just give them the translated message which they then have to work out, so it still has some degree of challenge/fun without the chore of doing a translation.

[Eldan]

Yeah, then I'd say work with what your players want. It's perfectly fine if players just want a quick game and not think about it off-session, but that also says to me they aren't the kind of players who'd enjoy playing Enigma Machine between encounters.

There's going to be one player in a hundred who really loves this idea. Another 10 or so who'll think "Huh, neat" once. The rest won't care.

[glass]

First up, I was just about to link you to a thread on the Paizo forums about adapting Desert of Desolation that might have been of interest. But than I realised that you probably already know, given that it was your thread....

Secondly, I agree with the apparent consensus. Don't give it to your players as a player-facing challenge, unless you are absolutely sure all your players will be in to it. Does 3.Aotrs still have Linguistics and comprehend languages? They would seem to be exactly what is called for in this circumstance.

I believe you are setting the adventure in Ossirion, right? Is there some reason why the inscriptions would not be in Ancient Ossiriani? The PCs might just be able to read it with no rolls of spells required?

ETA: Eldan's idea of giving it to those who might be interested away form the table is a good one, although it sounds like it is not going to fly at your table. OTOH, I disagree with them that it should be behind linguistics checks if it is vital information - if it is vital, just tell them!

OTOH, your comment in the OP that it was added in the collected edition and not in the original adventure makes me think it is probably not vital!

[Eldan]

Eh, vital information can still be behind a linguistics check. Just don't make it the only option. Tell them that there's a professional linguist in the nearest city, but that's going to take two days of travel and cost money. That way there's still a reward for passing the check, but they don't get stuck in the story if they don't pass.

[Telok]

I can absolutely guarentee that no-one is going away to do it out of session. Most of the group turns up, plays and doesn't think about anything until they come next week (there's basically only one player who helps with rules stuff, and one other who sometimes does some research - his current character uses stuff from Treantmonk's Guide to Playing god - and a couple chipped in with the physical work of re-printing the maneouvre cards, but that's more or less it).

Oh, ultra ultra casual. Yeah, don't give them mysteries or handouts then. Just have a token easy roll + backup auto-info dump for the stuff then. Its taken a couple years but I can now get my players to read a simple one page bullet point list on things like the mentor background resources they like to take. They still have problems thinking about anything scenery/envronment related beyond what appear on a 90 foot per side battle mat, but there's been some movement on that front too.

[Aotrs Commander]

First up, I was just about to link you to a thread on the Paizo forums about adapting Desert of Desolation that might have been of interest. But than I realised that you probably already know, given that it was your thread....

Actually... I did not, so if you have that link, I certainly wouldn't complain! (I don't know why I didn't think about looking really, or maybe i did but my google-fu failed me that day or something.)

To some extent, there was going to be some fairly heavy re-writing involved because of level disparity (as the campaign - which I'm considering to be my magnus opus - is multi-faceted. The PCs will basically run into the Sunken City right ot fo the gate.

Basically, the conceit is that the Ruby Prince said "right, I got cursed by the tomb explorer stuff, so now I want every to pay 200gp ahead before they're allowed to do it" and so the PCs, before they can start Mummy's Mask, essentially get employed by a down-on-his-luck Amenopheus to do the Third Riddle module. On the way, they gte caught in a khamsin - caused by the final 11th phase of the countdown clock - and find the Sunken City of Pazar. Where it turns out Martok of the DoD used Sage Jewels his star stones, so Amenopheus (who will be the PCs, so likely for the first time out, it's not going to be hard for the to read stuff...!) is like "I'mma rescue that, what's that doing there, wait, oh snap what did I just do..." Setting the rest of DoD in motion. The PCs will then finish Third riddle, do the first book of Mummy's Mask and then Amenopheus will get back to them on the "bad thing we released" front, which will squeeze in the Destiny of the Sands trilogy - and starting the PCs on Mythic... And the rest of DoD proper will happen during the desert crawl stage of Mummy's Mask.

Woven in between that is the countdown clock stuff, as Amenopheus and the PCs end up doing Entombed with the Pharoahs and Pact Stone Pyramid and realised "that countdown is a getting a bit close, yo..."

Post Mummy's Mask, there'll be a few epsodic bits taken from ideas like Ululat re-awakening (suitable for what will, I expect be Epic/Mythic PCs) i the chaos before the countdown clock is about to tick and basicaly the last part of Doomsday Dawn will be the big finale.

(It took me a few weeks to piece it together when I decided that this year, I NEEDED to start work on this campaign if I was ever going to do it, while there's eneough of us left to do it.)

I'm not entirely sure what level the PCs will actually be when they start the main bit of DoD, is what I'm saying...!

Concievably, the first part might not even GET that far, before we break to do the final third of Shackled City. I have to basically do APs by staggered chunks (third of one, third of the next and so on) to sensibly stop to take actual levels (and sometimes party size changes) into account abd break it up a bit. (Since I am the only DM now, basically.)




Secondly, I agree with the apparent consensus. Don't give it to your players as a player-facing challenge, unless you are absolutely sure all your players will be in to it. Does 3.Aotrs still have Linguistics and comprehend languages? They would seem to be exactly what is called for in this circumstance.

I believe you are setting the adventure in Ossirion, right? Is there some reason why the inscriptions would not be in Ancient Ossiriani? The PCs might just be able to read it with no rolls of spells required?

It's (kind of hilariously) too modern for Ancient Osiriani, "only" being a thousand years since the Desert of Desolation stuff was set in motion (as opposed to the Mummy's Mask and countdown clock threads, which are much older...!) I actually had to check that one up for the first tablet, which is supposed to be easily read and not in the "ancient alphabet."

I think I am going for the Lingustics check route - between the Osirionology and Osiriontologist feats I have done everything but point a neon sign on and say "somebody in the party ought to have those, very unsubtle hint" that should render the DCs essentially trivial. (Barring natural 1s, which in 3.Aotrs are -10 on skill checks, so it's possible to fail if DC is more than [skill bonus]-10...!)

I'm thus going to fluff thsi "ancient alphabet" as an obscure, archaic written dialect of Osirani... And the quite reasonable justification that languages DON'T stay static for thousands of years; so it is not quite trying to read Old English, but closer to Middle English as it were. That also has some imemrsion advantages, because it illustrates how MASSIVE and ancient Osirion history is, that all this stuff is just the most RECENT of the Forgotten Secrets of Osirion (title drop!) the group will encounter.

[glass]

Actually... I did not, so if you have that link, I certainly wouldn't complain! (I don't know why I didn't think about looking really, or maybe i did but my google-fu failed me that day or something.)
Okay, the thread is here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qhs?Creating-an-Osirion-MegaCampaign#3

But, like I said, it's your thread (unless there are two people called Aotrs Commander who are both interested in Desert of Desolation et al, which would be one hell of a coincidence!)

[Vahnavoi]

Do NOT have someone transliterate text at the table. I can't imagine how that is going to go well.

Why such negativity in a world where word puzzles are a commonly enjoyed past-time?


Especially because it feels to me that this is a one person job. So, you will get one person at the table who maybe likes cryptography sitting down and doing the translation and then... everyone else waits? Even with the key, I can see this taking 10-15 minutes per paragraph, just because you're giong to have to look up every single letter.

There are multiple short snippets, the logical thing for each player to pick a snippet, and for the game master to hand out multiple keys. It's only a one-person task if the snippets are handed out one at a time. Also, why would everyone else wait? It's easy for other players to do other things while one is focused doing this task.

[glass]

Why such negativity in a world where word puzzles are a commonly enjoyed past-time? Ballroom dancing is also a commonly enjoyed pastime (including by me). Doesn't mean it mixes well with TTRPGing.

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, the thread is here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qhs?Creating-an-Osirion-MegaCampaign#3

But, like I said, it's your thread (unless there are two people called Aotrs Commander who are both interested in Desert of Desolation et al, which would be one hell of a coincidence!)

Ohh, right. I missed the implication and it's been nine months... (And I am so tired at the moment.)

[glass]

Ohh, right. I missed the implication and it's been nine months... (And I am so tired at the moment.)Fair enough. In my defence, I only said I read it recently, not that it was new. Obviously it was in one of the slower moving forums....

[Vahnavoi]

Ballroom dancing is also a commonly enjoyed pastime (including by me). Doesn't mean it mixes well with TTRPGing.

Only because of the tabletop part, ballroom dancing in live action roleplays is well-established. No such obstacle exist for word puzzles - you don't have to physically leave the table to do it - so again, why the negativity?

[Telok]

Only because of the tabletop part, ballroom dancing in live action roleplays is well-established. No such obstacle exist for word puzzles - you don't have to physically leave the table to do it - so again, why the negativity?

Commonly, in my experience, there are three impediments to puzzling in a ttrpg.

1. **** puzzles. This is the biggest. Pixel bitchers, no alternatives, regional variant word pronounciation, specific subculture references, etc., all contribute. I was told one once that was a seven or eight step riddle with "knight", "night", and "nought", given quickly by a guy with a slight speech impediment who though it was some minor variation on a 'common easy kids riddle'. I just said "write it down and I'll get back to you". Or the fact that I'll pretty much absolutely fail anything involving a TV show reference, but I know not to include riddles requiring epee fencing technique knowledge.

2. Solo time. A lot of ttrpg puzzles are presented as something for one person at a time to solve and its assumed that everything has to grind to a stop until the puzzle is solved. Those are bad, yes. For ttrpgs you need puzzles where most of the table can participate, situations where the game doesn't break down waiting for a solution, and you know everyone has shared reference points & common information. This also means the answers or multiple super clear hints need to be in the adventure somewhere before the puzzle appears.

3. Players who don't/won't engage with puzzles. Maybe its that they're super casual, or its just been an off day for them and they're brain tired, or they've had bad experiences with previous modules puzzles, or they've been told they're bad at it enough to absorb that message. On occasion you'll hit someone like me who'll recognize a bad puzzle situation and decide to use it as a teaching moment, which can be good or bad depending on if I'm in the mood to explain & fix vs if I'm feeling more like murderizing the puzzle source and potentially Henderson the adventure/module.

[Vahnavoi]

@Telok:

1) Sure, any subgame can be made intolerable by bad design. Not a good reason to disown an entire genre of word puzzles.

2) As noted, this doesn't have to apply to this puzzle to begin with. More generally, a puzzle doesn't have to involve every player at the table - if you have distinct single player task, which the player can achieve on their own without constant supervision, the obvious alternative is for the other players to do other things in the interim. Transliterating or translating a short text snippet is one of the better examples for this, we can imagine literally this happening in the game: one person focuses on completing this task while others of the group search the next room, fortify a camp, shop for new equipment, do the dishes, or whatever else. Even in a team game, there is plenty of room for players to do things separately.

3) Sure, players might fail to engage. They might also fail to engage with any other facet of the game and one of the surest ways to create this failure is for a game master to have negative attitude towards the endeavor before-the-fact. It's not a good reason to disown an entire genre of word puzzles. At least present the puzzle to players first so they can have an opinion on it.

[Telok]

Oh, I agree. No reason to ditch the idea of puzzles. I was just putting in what I've seen that makes people react so very negatively to the idea of puzzles in a ttrpg. So many of the puzzles they've been bitten by are some combination of the bad things.