Aerie protector druid archetype and wild shape progression

[ciopo]

relevant quotes from the simple RAW thread

Q449

Does a 6th level aerie protector druid have one or two uses of Wild shape?

The archetype says he gains wild shape at 6th level, but it does not mention the whole progression being delayed


A449

It does in fact mention the whole progression being delayed ("An aerie protector gains this ability at 6th level, except her effective druid level is her druid level – 2.")

A449 dispute: You cut that quote of early. It actually says " An aerie protector gains this ability at 6th level, except her effective druid level is her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a flying animal, she instead uses her druid level + 2."

Since the modifications to the effective druid level are contingent on the specific form selected, they cannot apply to the number of uses per day (which by definition are independent on any particular form). The druid level can only apply to which spell is used (and therefore which forms are available and their stats).

IMO, the Aerie Guardian gets their full usage progression, because the only thing that might say they can't cannot actually do that in context.

I took the -2 to mean for purposes of what forms we have access, because otherwise, would we have 3 uses for the "+2" of flying animal forms?

I mean, I read that as "you can take the form of (beast shape I) if it's a nonflying animal, or (beast shape III) if it's a flying animal" etcetera (at 6th level, etcetera).


but it's a fair reading I suppose, I didn't think it would be for the uses, too

[glass]

I took the -2 to mean for purposes of what forms we have access, because otherwise, would we have 3 uses for the "+2" of flying animal forms?

I mean, I read that as "you can take the form of (beast shape I) if it's a nonflying animal, or (beast shape III) if it's a flying animal" etcetera (at 6th level, etcetera).


but it's a fair reading I suppose, I didn't think it would be for the uses, tooI agree with your reading (and more-or-less said as much in disputing Kurald Galain's answer). If it just said -2 druid level, then it would affect uses. But given that whether you have +2 or -2 depends on the specific form, they cannot be applied until a form has been selected. Which by definition is after the remaining uses has been considered and found to be adequate.

[Darg]

It says effective druid levels. "Effective" is pointing to the effect of the ability. It wouldn't modify anything that isn't part of the effect; the number of uses in this case.

An example of what I mean is heighten spell. For purposes of preparation and casting all metamagic spells are already considered higher level. All heighten spell does is increase the effective level of the spell described as altering the effects of the spell to match the level it is already prepared/cast at.

[Kurald Galain]

Right. Googling around tells me that this is a frequently asked question, and community opinions are divided on whether it means
Level - 2 for uses per day and duration, level + 2 solely for which flying animal forms you can select;
Level for uses per day, duration depends on what form you select;
Uses per day and duration depend on what form you select (meaning you get +2 uses per day that can be used for flying forms only).


In my opinion it's the third; although the first strikes me as a valid alternative reading (the second strikes me as self-contradictory). To my knowledge there has been no official answer to this.

[Darg]

Right. Googling around tells me that this is a frequently asked question, and community opinions are divided on whether it means
Level - 2 for uses per day and duration, level + 2 solely for which flying animal forms you can select;
Level for uses per day, duration depends on what form you select;
Uses per day and duration depend on what form you select (meaning you get +2 uses per day that can be used for flying forms only).


In my opinion it's the third; although the first strikes me as a valid alternative reading (the second strikes me as self-contradictory). To my knowledge there has been no official answer to this.

Or the forth option: uses per day are unaffected and your effective druid level only affects the effect, i.e. the duration.

[glass]

Or the forth option: uses per day are unaffected and your effective druid level only affects the effect, i.e. the duration.How is that different from their second option?

[Kurald Galain]

Or the forth option: uses per day are unaffected and your effective druid level only affects the effect, i.e. the duration.
Yes, that is the second option. Your effective druid level affects part of the effect (i.e. the duration) but not another part of the effect (i.e. the frequency), meaning it is self-contradictory.

(and that is generally not what "effective level" means, anyway)

[Darg]

Yes, that is the second option. Your effective druid level affects part of the effect (i.e. the duration) but not another part of the effect (i.e. the frequency), meaning it is self-contradictory.

(and that is generally not what "effective level" means, anyway)

You are confusing the ability from it's effect. The number of uses is not part of the effect of an ability and rather a function of the ability itself. An effect is what happens when you use it. I don't know of a similar situation in pathfinder to use as an example, but a dragon's breath is usable every 1d4 rounds. The Draconomicon added a metabreath feat called maximize breath that works like maximize spell for the dragon's breath. It does not maximize the frequency of using your breath as it isn't an effect of the breath.


If you use your breath weapon as a full-round action, all variable, numeric effects of the attack are maximized.

[ciopo]

I don't know of a similar situation in pathfinder to use as an example the most similar thing that came to mind to me when I put up the question are paladin archetypes that delays obtaining smite evil, but afaik they all also specifically alter the frequency, supposedly if there was one that said "you gain smite evil at 4th level" , without any other alterations, then that paladin would gain two uses at 4th level, whole having 0 prior to that.

For our aerie druid, the relevant paragraph is: "A druid can use this ability an additional time per day at 6th level and every two levels thereafter, for a total of eight times at 18th level. At 20th level, a druid can use wild shape at will. As a druid gains levels, this ability allows the druid to take on the form of larger and smaller animals, elementals, and plants. Each form expends one daily use of this ability, regardless of the form taken."

How is this altered by Aerie paragraph: "Wild Shape: An aerie protector gains this ability at 6th level, except her effective druid level is her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a flying animal, she instead uses her druid level + 2." ?

I'm honestly unsure, I can see valid arguments for all three cases of 1 use; 2 uses; 1 normal use plus two bird uses. I'm leaning toward the third interpretation because it's the one that feels cleanest to me, even if it's not the simpliest. I consider it kinda equivalent in function to being a 4th level druid multiclassed with an 8th level druid, if that makes sense, and one such a multiclass would result in separate pools, like how channel energy from multiple sources are different nonstacking pools