2nd level spells: Rime's Binding Ice vs Web vs Hold Person vs ??

[Hiro Quester]

I'm building a Paladin2/Hexblade 1/Clockwork Soul+X for a new game, starting at level 6.

I'm playing as a frontline controller and tanky smiter. A mix of defensive, buff, and control spells. Im really indecisive about which second-level spells I should learn.

As second level spells, I'm getting Misty Step from Feytouched. Aid and Lesser Restoration (which I'm considering trading for another transmutation or abjuration spell from the Wizard or Warlock lists). and I can take three more second level Sorcerer spells.

For the Clockwork Soul spell, I'm considering trading LR for Enlarge/Reduce (to increase the area of my Cleric ally's Spirit Guardians, help me block a corridor, or to shrinking doors, etc). But Levitate, Rope Trick, and even Alter Self could be useful and fun. Since it needs to be something I'll use my whole career, I'm thinking that Enlarge/Reduce will always come in handy.

For the other Sorcerer spells, I can know three of these:


Tasha's Mind Whip seems good control, with a rarely resisted INT save.
Rime's Binding Ice strikes me as a great damage and control spell, especially since it doesn't require concentration. Con save, though, which may be easily resisted for martial types.
Web's lasting control and restraint, that you can shove people into (my warlock teammate has pushing blast). But web uses concentration.
Hold Person, for auto-crits (I have paladin smites, after all).
Levitate is also good control. But single target and also a CON save, seems to make RBI a better choice.
Mirror Image is excellent defense, especially if I'm holding onto an important concentration spell
Enhance Ability could also be useful for out of combat buffing (especially since I'll also be the party face, or for negating my armor's stealth disadvantage when it's needed).


Which three of those (or other sorcerer control/buff/debuff spells) would you take?

[zonkswonk]

If you're going to be concentrating on a control spell in combat, Web is the de facto best choice imo. Even on your list I don't see another combat concentration spell. It's just really good.
Once you get 3rd level spells hypnotic pattern is also very strong, but web is still useful against enemies who can't be charmed.


Binding ice and mind whip are both good situationally if for whatever reason you don't feel like concentrating. But it doesn't sound like you're doing a whole lot else with concentration, so you might as well just web. I would probably pick whichever one of these two better fits your theme.

Lastly, I have to recommend my boy rope trick, which is just such a fun spell to use (in or out of combat) that I take it whenever I can justify it thematically. Camp out in enemy bases and surveil them safely, play peekaboo during combat to be completely untargetable (or put ur squishies in there), it's an almost guaranteed short rest in even the most dangerous situations for your whole party. Just be sure to bring a shorter length of rope to it's easy to get into the window.

My gut says that an action and a second level spell slot (when you only have 3, at the start) for mirror image won't be worth it most of the time. If you're willing to spend an action and spell slot to protect your concentration, take the dodge action and have shield prepared. Only lasts one round but is a helluva lot cheaper.

[KorvinStarmast]

Based on my experiences in this edition, I'll recommend web unless you just don't like concentration spells.

RBI would be my close second pick.

[Hiro Quester]

I do have a few other spells to concentrate on, and will gain more. At the moment, I'll probably often be concentrating on a Bless spell (from Paladin levels), or perhaps Enlarge/Reduce (e.g. to make the Cleric's Spirit Guardians lock down a larger area). But Compelled Duel might get some use, when I have to keep the Big Bad focussed on me instead of my squishy companions.

The general usefulness of Rope Trick might outweigh the sometimes useful Enlarge Reduce, though. But we do also have an artificer in the party who can prepare that sometimes.

So a non-concentration control and damage spell like RBI does sound good. Being able to control two areas with both RBI and Web simultaneously seems very useful in some situations.

But you are probably right that Web is going to be more useful for longer than Hold Person (which only applies to humanoids, and charm immunity reduces applicability, too).

[RazorChain]

I agree with web, it's the most bang for your buck at low level. Hold person only works on humanoids and is great when upcasted as a warlock to affect 3+ foes.

Web also has Str check to break out from being restrained if the creature fails it dex save. So it can be quite effective against foes that have a decent Str saving throw.

Also it's difficult terrain and can control the battlefield as creature will either avoid the web after it's cast or be forced to go through it.

Rime's binding ice is decent when you want to do damage and stop foes in their tracks, the downside is they ain't restrained so no disadvantage on ranged attacks if they have them and now advantage for your friends either.

[Skrum]

Rime's is I think the best of what you listed as it offers decent AoE and no-concentration CC. Especially if you're going to be in melee range, the cone will generally work fine.

But IMO, by far the best 2nd level spell is vortex warp. The ability to move/rescue allies and NPC's is unparalleled, and it only gets more valuable as you go up in level (where maps get bigger, enemies get trickier, and terrain tends to get more impactful). Especially as a sorcerer that can quicken it so you can still attack/cantrip, yeah, Vortex Warp is the way to go.

[Oramac]

Rope Trick

Slightly off-topic, but I just want to say I've gotten a TON of good mileage out of rope trick over the years. It's a surprisingly useful spell, not just for short rests, but for hiding or just general shenanigans.


But IMO, by far the best 2nd level spell is vortex warp

I will second this. Vortex Warp is hugely useful.

==================================

Anyway, to answer your actual question, I'd say that web and rime's are tied in my mind. Both are good. It just depends on how you intend to play and whether or not you'll be able to spare the concentration for web compared to anything else.

[Hiro Quester]

Agreed about Vortex warp. Hugely useful. Especially if you also have telekinetic shove (for placing them on the edge of a cliff then shoving them off). But we don't have access to Strixhaven.

[Aimeryan]

Agreed about Vortex warp. Hugely useful. Especially if you also have telekinetic shove (for placing them on the edge of a cliff then shoving them off). But we don't have access to Strixhaven.

If I may, could I suggest not doing the Paladin 2 dip? Smite is usually an inferior option to casting spells (Smite scales poorly and lower level Spell Slots have good competition like Shield), and Action Surge is often a more reliable source of nova potential if needed. Nevermind that going into melee is something that should be considered a last resort given the alternative options. The Paladin multiclass is best taken to 6/7 (for Auras, which are so good they boost Paladin from mediocre to great), or not at all. If the latter, I would recommend pairing with Warlock 2 (either Hexblade or Undead) after Pal 1 for EB spam (ranged > melee, and protecting casters/ranged with aura > protecting melee), and then the rest in Sorcerer for spells.

If the desire is for a frontliner specifically, perhaps because the group is not good at keeping enemies at bay, I would suggest Moon Druid since these do not need healing resources dumped into them just for the audacity of going into melee. I would not suggest a melee dps, since range exists and is just superior (few enemies are themselves ranged). If the desire is just for a somewhat tanky martial, I would suggest Fighter at ranged, or something like a Gloomstalker Ranger if half-caster qualifies. If the desire is just for a tanky caster I would suggest either a two level Hexblade Warlock dip for Sorcerer/Bard, or a one level Peace/Twilight Cleric dip for Wizards (these combos are often more tanky than martials, if that matters).

With what you have, I would suggest the Sorcerer 1, Hexblade 2 dip, then rest in Sorcerer (i.e., the Sorlock). EB spam with Agonising and Repelling is very good for Spell Slot conservation, and the refreshing low level slots are good for Sorcery Point conversion. Put on a shield and medium armour, set Dex to 14, take the Shield spell - you are now more tanky than pretty much any martial, are ranged, and have the full power of casting spells.

[KorvinStarmast]

I will second this. Vortex Warp is hugely useful. Which book is this from? Doesn't ring a bell.

[RogueJK]

Which book is this from? Doesn't ring a bell.

Strixhaven

[KorvinStarmast]

Strixhaven Right. I don't use it. No wonder I didn't catch the ref. Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Hiro Quester]

If I may, could I suggest not doing the Paladin 2 dip? Smite is usually an inferior option to casting spells (Smite scales poorly and lower level Spell Slots have good competition like Shield), and Action Surge is often a more reliable source of nova potential if needed. Nevermind that going into melee is something that should be considered a last resort given the alternative options. The Paladin multiclass is best taken to 6/7 (for Auras, which are so good they boost Paladin from mediocre to great), or not at all. If the latter, I would recommend pairing with Warlock 2 (either Hexblade or Undead) after Pal 1 for EB spam (ranged > melee, and protecting casters/ranged with aura > protecting melee), and then the rest in Sorcerer for spells.

If the desire is for a frontliner specifically, perhaps because the group is not good at keeping enemies at bay, I would suggest Moon Druid since these do not need healing resources dumped into them just for the audacity of going into melee. I would not suggest a melee dps, since range exists and is just superior (few enemies are themselves ranged). If the desire is just for a somewhat tanky martial, I would suggest Fighter at ranged, or something like a Gloomstalker Ranger if half-caster qualifies. If the desire is just for a tanky caster I would suggest either a two level Hexblade Warlock dip for Sorcerer/Bard, or a one level Peace/Twilight Cleric dip for Wizards (these combos are often more tanky than martials, if that matters).

With what you have, I would suggest the Sorcerer 1, Hexblade 2 dip, then rest in Sorcerer (i.e., the Sorlock). EB spam with Agonising and Repelling is very good for Spell Slot conservation, and the refreshing low level slots are good for Sorcery Point conversion. Put on a shield and medium armour, set Dex to 14, take the Shield spell - you are now more tanky than pretty much any martial, are ranged, and have the full power of casting spells.

Generally this is good advice. But we already have a full warlock with Agonizing and Repelling blast. That's his lane. And we have a land druid, so I don't want to get in his way with a Moon Druid.

But the group is mostly inexperienced players, not so good at keeping enemies away (except from frontline cleric and artificer's Battlebot). They need baltlefield control and frontline help. to protect the squishy party members.

I know it's not totally optimal, but in a very-not-optimized group (warlock has little armor and 8 dex, for example), it will be fun, I think.

[Aimeryan]

Generally this is good advice. But we already have a full warlock with Agonizing and Repelling blast. That's his lane. And we have a land druid, so I don't want to get in his way with a Moon Druid.

But the group is mostly inexperienced players, not so good at keeping enemies away (except from frontline cleric and artificer's Battlebot). They need baltlefield control and frontline help. to protect the squishy party members.

I know it's not totally optimal, but in a very-not-optimized group (warlock has little armor and 8 dex, for example), it will be fun, I think.

Perhaps a Bladesinger build, then? Battlefield control with frontline help as needed. Otherwise, your current build bumped up to 6/7 Paladin (Watchers is really good for 7) would be better at frontlining and at providing protection via the aura. Battlefield control comes on a bit late, but a Land Druid (Spikegrowth, Summons, etc) and a Cleric (Spirit Guardians) are also covering that.